.45 ACP and Titegroup


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257WbyMag
January 11, 2009, 03:58 PM
I bought some bulk 230 FMJ (not plated) bullets for my .45 ACP the other day. I just noticed that they are .452 diameter instead of .451. I have used 4.8 grains of Titegroup with the .451 230 gr FMJs for a while. Do I need to adjust my charge weight at all due to the diameter difference or do you think that this is a negligible change? The weight is the same, it's just the diameter that is different.

For what it is worth, I am shooting a classic Sig P220.

Thanks.

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rfwobbly
January 11, 2009, 07:36 PM
Mr. 257 -

According to the Hodgdon manual, 4.8gr of TiteGroup under a 230gr FMJ is the max load. The .452 dia does not concern me nearly as much as the fact that you are at the max load.

The reason for the non-concern on the bullet is a very low % of diametrical increase, coupled with the additional capacity for bullet measurement error. I.e. did you use a micrometer or a caliper? Did you measure one or several places? How much pressure was applied to the instrument for the reading? Hot bullet and cold caliper? There are simply too many places for measurement error.

The concern over the max load is that it is probably not as accurate as something slightly lower, say 4.6 or 4.7gr. However if power, not accuracy, was your aim, then Longshot, HS-6, Universal, HP-38 all make much higher velocities, and some even at lower pressures than TG.

I'm sure your SIG will do exceedingly well. I'm sure the rounds will all fire correctly. But as your friend, I simply can't understand where you are going with this load.

Follow?

rfwobbly
January 11, 2009, 07:37 PM
Whoops!

rfwobbly
January 11, 2009, 07:38 PM
Whoops!

evan price
January 11, 2009, 10:51 PM
I load 4.7 grains of Titegroup under a 230 FMJ and have great results in my Sig P220.

Gryffydd
January 12, 2009, 12:48 AM
But as your friend, I simply can't understand where you are going with this load.

Maybe he gets fantastic accuracy and shooting characteristics that more closely match his carry ammo? Have you tried that load in that gun?

257WbyMag
January 12, 2009, 07:43 PM
Gryffydd and all,

Yes, I understand that 4.8 grains is listed as the max load. I have used this load for a few years with no ill effects. No signs of excess pressure or anything and it works well for me. But I appreciate your drawing attention to this fact in the interest of safety. I am a careful reloader and follow the rules when working up loads, utilize a chronograph, and stick with SAAMI 100% of the time.

The bullets, manufactured by Magtech, are still in the bags and therefore, I haven't miked any of them. They were simply stamped on the packaging as .452. As I said before, the .452 diameter was a new one on me for a 230 grain FMJ, a bullet traditionally reserved for .45 ACP use. I have known that .452 is common for lead and .45 long Colt for a while and I have never employed the use of those in my Sig P220 before.

I appreciate the input on this topic. In the interest of safety, I think that I am going to go ahead and work the load up a bit by starting 5% below and going from there.

Many thanks!

Walkalong
January 12, 2009, 07:51 PM
I have shot some Magtech 230 Gr FMJ bullets. I could tell no difference in them when I shot them with 5.5 Grs of W-231 and other jacketed/plated bullets. Mine mike out at .4517 with a very slight pressure ring at the base. Most of the bullet is closer to .4514

I have shot 4.8 grs of Titegroup with plated 230 Gr bullets, and other than not caring for Titegroup, they shot fine as well. :)

moooose102
January 12, 2009, 09:07 PM
if, and when i ever get parts for my taurus 45, i have an experimental round loaded using a .452" jacketed bullet as well. i am using a plastic pointed muzzle loader bullet, just to see if it will work, and if so, how well. it may not due to the lower velocity. but there is only one way to tell. i reduced my load more than 5%. more like 10%. i would rathre it drop out of the end of the barrel, than have the barrel spilt from excess pressure. if it shoots ok, i can load the next ones hotter.

unclesam099
January 12, 2009, 11:49 PM
moooose, you can get higher pressures with a smaller charge as well!

The bullet can remain in the barrel longer and cause pressure to build up... So you really want to be in the middle of the range and not go lower than the powder manufacturers' recommended starting loads.

However, this may not apply because you have a shorter barrel than the test barrel. A chronograph and appropriate mathematics definitely will assist in this aspect :)

Good luck.

D. Manley
January 13, 2009, 12:06 AM
I have shot 4.8 grs of Titegroup with plated 230 Gr bullets, and other than not caring for Titegroup, they shot fine as well.

+1 on both counts. I found this a very accurate load but a bit stiff for enjoyable range work and truth be told, I'm not in my "comfort zone" pushing the limits with TG...at max loads, it can get unforgiving in a hurry. For full-bore loads (in any caliber) I feel better using a slower, more linear powder. When I load TG (and I do) I pretty much limit it to lighter charges under heavier bullets just making minor PF. Just my two cents.

fearme
January 13, 2009, 12:33 AM
FWIW, I've been loading 5.0g of TG under Hornady 230 XTPs and FMJRN's for about 1300 rounds now... Also all shot out of a Sig P220.

Hornady's latest manual has the TG max load as 5.2g for their 230g's.....

I'm getting fantastic accuracy at 5.0g and they chrono from 760-810 or so....

The thing that amazes me is the almost total lack of carbon buildup even after several hundred rounds.

evan price
January 13, 2009, 12:34 AM
I even went so far as to use 5.1 and 5.5 grains of TG under Rainier 230-rn plated slugs, and honestly it didn't feel a lot different than a 4.7 grain load, except that my Sig ejected the cases into the stratosphere. It was an experiment with +P 45, and I was fortunate to survive with ten fingers. Don't try this at home. :)

I find through my experments that Titegroup PREFERS to be loaded up in the upper ranges, max or even a bit above, to burn cleanest and most accurately.

ants
January 13, 2009, 12:34 AM
Just my very, very humble 2 cents and worth every penny (well, worth a little less than before, now that copper prices are going back down):

Go to the Hodgdon site and compare pressures at max load for all the powders. Titegroup is smack in the middle compared to other powders. Stick with published loads and it isn't to be feared for high pressure spikes. Especially since 45acp is a very low pressure cartridge. TG is a fairly fast powder, like Clays and 700x and VV N310. Some folks like 'em, some folks don't. For traditional older cartridges like 45acp, .30-30, and 380auto I have grown fond of smaller amounts of faster powders with heavier bullets. Figure out your own preferences for yourself, then commit yourself to your craft.

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