[WAGCEVP]

September 24, 2003

Scotland Cuts Gun Crime in Half

As a result of a gun-amnesty program and a ban on pistols, Scotland has
reduced its rate of gun crime by nearly half in the past 10 years, the
Scotsman reported Sept. 24.

According to the Scottish Executive, there was a 2-percent drop in the
number of firearms offenses in 2002, and an overall 48-percent decline
since 1992. In addition, crimes committed with shotguns reached the lowest
level ever last year.

The report found that airguns were the most common type of weapon used in
committing crimes in 2002, followed by imitation firearms.

Despite the drop in gun crimes, Cathy Jamieson, the justice minister, said
that there is much more that needs to be done.

"There is no need for complacency," she said. "There are still too
many
illegally-held firearms, but thanks to police initiatives locally, the
national gun amnesty, and a significant tightening of the regulations on
gun ownership, we have made progress."

Jamieson added, "Gun crime is a major cause of fear and distress and is a
real problem in some areas. We are committed to removing guns from our
streets. It is time to reduce the threat posed by guns and make Scotland a
safer place."

[Zedicus]

The report found that airguns were the most common type of weapon used in
committing crimes in 2002, followed by imitation firearms.

the only reason the report found this is because they want to ban both of them.
the actual most common weapons used in crimes are golf clubs, metal pipes/bars, car emergency glass breaking hammers, rocks/bricks, cheap £1 kitchen knifes and sticks.
"Gun crime is a major cause of fear and distress and is a
real problem in some areas. We are committed to removing guns from our
streets. It is time to reduce the threat posed by guns and make Scotland a
safer place."
time to reduce the threat posed by guns and make Scotland a
safer place...?????:barf: :barf: :barf: :banghead:

Idiots! :cuss: :fire:

[Standing Wolf]

My Scottish ancestors left after Culloden, and never looked back.

[Brian Dale]

They're all percentages. There's a suspicious lack of actual numerical data here. And do their "firearms offenses" include the simple ownership of firearms? What has happened to the actual number of violent crimes committed, with and without weapons, in the specified eleven-year period? This smells like a fairy tale, crafted to support a gun-grabbing agenda.

[Orthonym]

I live in a county with ~130 golf courses and ONE, count'em, ONE shooting range. If I were absolute despot here, anyone who looked like, dressed like, or talked like a golfer would be accosted by my JBTs and thrown into an underground dungeon until I died, or he did. :fire: Sorry, Dad. Neal Boortz: You Have Been Warned!

[Keith]

Yeah, gun crime has fallen, yet violent crime has quadrupled!

I don't get it - are they that stupid? Assault, burglary, rape, murder have all risen to epidemic levels. The US (which has liberalized gun laws through the same period), has become the safer place to love.

Keith

[jimpeel]

Despite the drop in gun crimes, Cathy Jamieson, the justice minister, said that there is much more that needs to be done.You ever notice how enough is never enough? That there are numerous "good first steps" but never a second step?

[agricola]

keith,

Yeah, gun crime has fallen, yet violent crime has quadrupled!

I don't get it - are they that stupid?

when are you going to let those pesky facts into your argument?

[SIGarmed]

The report found that airguns were the most common type of weapon used in
committing crimes in 2002, followed by imitation firearms

You got to be kidding me. :rolleyes:

[agricola]

SIGarmed,

You got to be kidding me

no, air weapons make up around 50% of the total "firearms offences" in England and Wales as well

[jimpeel]

That's likely because they make up about 50% of all of the firearms left in the Utopian dream.

[Gray Peterson]

and to think this was the land of William Wallace. :(

[SIGarmed]

They might put an eye out with those things. :D

[Orthonym]

Let me be the first to say that there's no accounting for what goes on in the minds of the Sassenachs, but I'm pretty sure it's loathesomely evil. How... ever, we Celtic folks are famously level-headed and studious when not corrupted by the mind-rotting, enervating, time-wasting, so-called "game", GOLF! Yes, I'm ashamed to admit that we might have an ethnic, aye, genetic weakness for that colossal waste of time, money and effort.....Pasture Pool! Was it not James Stuart, King of Scotland, who forbade his subjects to play golf on Sunday, not because either he or we were very good Sabbatarians, but that we should have been out at the butts, exercising with our WEAPONS! (I don't know exactly which JamesStuartKingofScotland that was, there were so many:D )

[Keith]

when are you going to let those pesky facts into your argument?

Ag,

Haven't we had this discussion before? And the upshot was that you say the Leyden University study is wrong, and that your own government crime statistics are wrong or "flawed", etc.
Maybe it's time you accepted the simple truth. Crime continues to rise in your country despite the stop and search laws, despite the "offensive weapons" laws, despite the ever more intrusive nature of government.

In fact, it is that erosion of civil liberties that lies at the heart of your problem. When you treat people like criminals, they act like criminals - and why not? There is no incentive to act honorably under the auspices of a dishonorable government.

Keith

[agricola]

keith,

you said:

"Yeah, gun crime has fallen, yet violent crime has quadrupled!"

this statement is palpable nonsense, at least have the decency to retract it and stick to your moral argument; dont be another zedicus and invent facts.

[Keith]

It has quadrupled since the anti-gun mania started some fifteen years ago.

The crime data has been posted here ad nauseum, and yet every time the subject comes up you've "forgotten" them. Every time they are re-posted you disappear.

Keith

[agricola]

where are these links again? i dont recall many debates focusing on Scottish criminal statistics. Perhaps you could find them?

ps: you know England and Wales have a different legal system and statistical framework from Scotland dont you?

pps: to give you a helping hand, here is the Scottish data for the past ten years:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00157-11.asp

[Mk VII]

Back to the original post (source unnamed)
doesn't say what sort of crimes. If it mirrors the English classification then it's 'offences in which a firearm was reported to have been involved' which means just that - involved in some way; stolen, illegal possession, found in the suspect's control but not used, poaching, murder, robbery, possessing firearm in public place, trespass with firearm, causing minor criminal damage (the most common). If it's minor vandalism then airguns are the guns most frequently used for the purpose.

[Orthonym]

I'm working on a design for an air gun to shoot golf balls. It would make a marvelous anti-riot weapon. If the balls have no more velocity on them than the USGA (and St. Andrews) allow from "Iron Byron", how could anyone complain? Remember President Ford? I think he beaned one or two people with golf balls and wasn't hauled into court. Of course, _I_ would mostly use it to shoot at golfers. Turnabout, one's own medicine, etc.:evil:

[sensop]

'Not surprising from Scotland. Anyone that watched the ceremony of establishment of the Scottish Parliament as an independent body (in June 2000, if I recall correctly) would have thought they were watching a May Day ceremony and parade in Beijing. Each province was represented by a parade of children carrying the same generic flags as each group marched by the grand stand. No warlike pipe and drum music ... I take it back ... ONE pipe and drum band and it was the Queen's own, I believe. A model of Liberal Socialism, Scotland is already a safer place ... English-style. That is, safer for the government.

Boy, was I disappointed. It brought tears to my eyes, as I am descended from the Kintail McRaes.

[agricola]

Keith,

have you found these links yet? you seem to have disappeared......... :uhoh:

[Poodleshooter]

It appears as though the trend for handling offensive weapons is headed up at a decent rate. Up 33% from 1992-2001.
Sans firearms, it must be the case that these violent offenders are armed with sticks and stones. It's like "Lord of the Flies" over there! :D
I prefer my Samuel Colt "man-equalizer" myself. :p

[Stickjockey]

What Standing Wolf said...:(

[Orthonym]

We can't bite you. Have you seen our (absent) teeth?

[Zedicus]

Agracola, you seem to be heavaly against airguns, and seem to think they are just as deadly as a .22 bolt action rifle.

so I'm sure you wouldnt mind my asking this, have you any proof of the lethalaty of airguns?
And I don't mean British goverment or some bogus statistics from any anti-airgun groups.

Also, Have you ever Used or been Shot by an Airgun?

the chances of one actualy penatrating human skin at anything but point blank range is prity thin....

[agricola]

zedicus please dont now switch to making up what i have said in the past

[Mk VII]

The push against airguns is the latest trend among anti-gun forces here, with numerous stories about vandalism and injuries to cats, etc. and calls for registration. It was suggested that it should be made free for the first few years to sweeten the pill.
The muzzle energy of them is restricted to 12 ft-lbs. for rifles and 6 ft-lbs. for pistols

[fallingblock]

I saw this story and thought that it was an excellent illustration of two points which seem to be misunderstood by the British:

1. The criminal will arm himself if it confers an advantage, regardless of the law or of police 'attitudes' toward armed criminals.

2. The citizen/victim DESERVES the right to be armed for self-defense.

Violent crime is certainly increasing in Britain, and banning guns has not had any positive effect upon the increasing use of firearms in crime.

************************************************************

Telegraph.
Woman jeweller shot dead in raid on family shop
By Nick Britten
(Filed: 01/10/2003)


The owner of a jeweller's shop was murdered in front of her husband and
daughter yesterday after fighting off two armed robbers during a raid.

Marian Bates was shot in the chest at point blank range after two men
burst into the shop at lunchtime and demanded thousands of pounds worth of jewellery.

Mrs Bates refused and, with her husband, Victor, and daughter, Xanthe,
put up a struggle. As Mrs Bates tried to fend off the men, one of them shot
her with a pistol.

As the robbers fled empty-handed, Mrs Bates died at the scene. Mr Bates
and Xanthe suffered head wounds in the struggle and were being treated in hospital last night.

Mr and Mrs Bates, both in their sixties, had run the jeweller's at the
Time Centre in Arnold, Notts, for 30 years and were approaching retirement.

Last night detectives found the killers' getaway vehicle, a scooter
stolen a month ago, abandoned with its engine running.

Chief Supt Richard Johnson, of Nottinghamshire police, said: "There was
a struggle, which resulted in a handgun being drawn and the woman shot in the chest. It was basically an armed robbery that went wrong.

"The shop is just a little family-run business and probably considered
a soft target. We don't think there was a secure entrance with a buzzer
or anything like that. It would have been a much easier target than a
chain or city centre branch." The business is situated at the heart of a busy
suburban shopping street and stands opposite a Co-Op store and close to
an Asda supermarket, which were both busy at 1pm, the time of the
shooting.

Chief Supt Johnson added: "We are desperate to catch the people who
carried out this crime as quickly as possible and to retrieve the weapon used.

"These were nice people going about their daily business. No one
expected this to happen to them. The people who did this are obviously very dangerous."

Police warned shoppers and residents to stay inside during the
aftermath of the shooting until it became clear that the gunmen had fled the scene.

One of the robbers was described as white, 5ft 4in in his late teens or
early twenties of medium build with brown eyebrows. The other was
described as 6ft, in his late teens to early twenties of scrawny build. He wore dark jeans, a dark motorcycle jacket and black trainers. He was carrying a black rucksack and a crowbar.

Police appealed to a pedestrian, who is believed to have seen the men
speed off, to come forward.

Brian Walker, 75, a friend of Mr and Mrs Bates for 30 years, said:
"I've got to say it was a pretty cowardly act to attack an elderly couple in a
little shop like this. This kind of thing is happening all the time today.
People just think they can take what they want."

East Midlands Ambulance Service said the injuries suffered by Mr Bates,
who lived with his wife in Ravenshead, Notts, and his daughter were not
life threatening. They are being treated at Nottingham's Queen's Medical
Centre.


:mad:

[Russ]

My great grandfather on my father's side left Scotland in the 1830's. On my my mother's side of the family they came to the "Colonies" from England in 1638. I am eternally grateful to those brave souls for getting out when they did. My Dad loved golf and played very badly all his life. I could care less about it however, Orthonym's idea to make a gun that shoots golf balls has some merit!