[HeatherPooh28]

I came across this site a few weeks ago and have enjoyed reading all of the topics on here. I am introducing myself and my 7 year old son to more of the outdoors and have a 28 gauge Wingmaster that I recently received from a relative; I was wanting to know if it would be adequate enough to use for home defense?

Heather

[Milkmaster]

Some will tell you that you need something with more punch to it. While that might be true, the best thing is to use whatever you are used to shooting and have practiced with regularly. To get a 12 gauge and never shoot it until a home invasion would be worse that using a 28 ga you shoot regularly and feels like part of your hand naturally from that practice. I wouldn't want to be shot with either in close quarters for whatever that is worth!

[Birdhunter1]

Yes it would for close range stuff, load it with #6 or #4 shot and you'd be good to go (considering home defense stuff is in close enough ranges the pattern would most likely not open up anyway).

[monkyboy1975]

A 28 is a fine shotgun to learn on, but as far as HD purposes go, their really are not any suitible loads out there to use. Granted it definitely will put a hurtin' on somebody at a close range: i wouldn't use it for HD,
but I would keep it as those things can be hard to find (I've been looking) and are definitely a joy to shoot.:)

And oops I almost forgot welcome aboard!

[Larry Ashcraft]

Would you consider a .54 caliber rifle as adequate? Well, that's what you have (with the right loads).

I also have a 28 ga Wingmaster. Nice piece, and a fairly rare find. I'm right proud of mine.

[mio]

if im not mistaken the velocity from the 28ga will be about the same as from a 12ga the difference is in the size of the shot pattern and the length of the shot cone.

12ga has more bbs than a 28 ga and they are spread widely while the 28ga has less bbs and they are spread more deeply.

i agree with milkmaster im sure id be equally dead if shot with either across your livingroom or down your hallway.

20 feet isnt enough room to make a big difference if you are using the same load from both guns.

[monkyboy1975]

But the problem is the pellet sizes that are offered in commercial loads, you can fix this by handloading; but she didn't specify if she handloaded or not.

[HeatherPooh28]

Thanks for all the info. I will be at ease using it if need be and will now start educating myself for my first handgun purchase in the near future.

[gp911]

It will be a great learning tool for Junior, and he will be more deadly with the bigger stuff if he learns on that fine 28. Keep that 28 and get a 12 or 20 later on when he's bigger. For that matter, shoot that 28 yourself, you won't regret it.

gp911

[mio]

before you educate yourself on a handgun purchase you should educate yourself on a handgun vs carbine purchase.
there are advantages to both for home defense. read up on the pros/cons and decide which fits your needs.

[HeatherPooh28]

Thanks. All advice is always welcome.

[Gordon]

No Dick Chaney jokes?

[bensdad]

A previous poster recommended:

load it with #6 or #4 shot and you'd be good to go (considering home defense stuff is in close enough ranges the pattern would most likely not open up anyway).

Please don't do this. I've never seen 28 ga. HD rounds sold commercially, but they might exist. There's a difference between buckshot and birdshot. "#6 or #4" in birdshot will not be an effective HD load. Use buckshot if it's out there. The shotshell should hold about 5-10 pellets, depending on size. If you can't find buckshot, but must use the 28ga. for HD, then use slugs.

[ACP230]

Someone tried to sell me one of those when I was in college many years ago.
I wasn't smart enough to buy it.

[Fred Fuller]

HeatherPooh28,

Welcome to THR!

Your 28 ga. Wingmaster is a great little gun- we have a 28 ga. 870 Express, and love it. The only problem with using it for home defense is a lack of what I would consider really suitable ammunition. The heaviest factory loads I can find for it are Hevishot #5 shot, and everyone seems to be out of stock on those. Close behind is Hevishot #6 shot ( http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=10480_14626_14517_14574 ). And it's expensive, too.

The BPI slugs (Ballistic Products Inc) for reloaders don't seem to be available any more- at least I can't find 'em on the web. They were basically a round ball with a special wad, as far as I know. I would think someone who reloaded 28 gauge could manage with the round balls made for .50 muzzle loaders, but that would take some experimenting.

now some folks will argue with me about what I consider 'really suitable ammunition' for home defense. That's just the way things go, differences of opinion make horse races- and Internet shotgun forums :D. I personally had rather not use birdshot for HD. Other folks will say it will do just fine. That's a call you will have to make- none of us can do it for you. Given a choice, I won't use anything smaller than buckshot for home defense- with no choice, I'd use whatever I had.

Just before Christmas, one of my 20-something neices came down from the mountains (she drove 5 hours) to the flatlands of eastern NC to take a home-made version of Defensive Shotgun 101 from her dear old uncle and aunt (who, by the way, is a better teacher and a better shot than I am). Of course, we had promised her the pick from a table full of shotguns if she'd come to visit when we saw her at Thanksgiving, but that's neither here nor there. :D

What she wound up choosing was a Remington 870 Express Youth model, a 20 gauge pumpgun with a 21" vent rib barrel fitted for RemChokes and a 13" length of pull (stock). The Express guns are the economy line, not finished as nicely as your Wingmaster and with birch or synthetic stocks instead of walnut. Right now Remington makes an Express Junior 20 gauge also, even smaller than the Youth model, with a 12" LOP and an 18" VR barrel with RemChokes ( http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_jr.asp ). I've seen them in Gander Mountain with birch stocks as well as the camo, for a bit less $$ as I recall.

IF you can manage it , I'd suggest looking for one or the other of the 20 gauge guns. I bought another 870 Express Youth model to replace the one my neice took home with her last week for a total of $246 out the door in used but like new condition from my favorite dealer. There are some used ones out there, maybe not a lot of them but some. And likely they will be a better price than a new one. The thing is, you can easily find both buckshot and slug loads in factory loaded ammunition for the 20 gauge. And that, IMHO, would be better for home defense- IF you can manage it.

IF NOT, it's certainly less expensive to buy shells for the gun you have. What I am most certainly not going to tell you is that your 28 gauge with birdshot won't do for home defense. It will- IF YOU WILL DO. By that I mean you have to be willing to use it, and able to use it, to hit what you shoot at, and to be ready to shoot again instantly if you must. I think it is necessary to have confidence in yourself and in your weapon, and nothing I have said should detract from your confidence in your gun or yourself. A 28 gauge is bigger than a .410, and I know of cases where people have mounted successful defense of their homes with .410s loaded with birdshot. You can do it too, and your gun will do the job.

Please read the following:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_51/ai_n11840312/print?tag=artBody;col1

Duck guns for defense? You don't have to put ol' Long Tom away after waterfowl season is over. It can still do yeoman duty for home defense
Clint Smith (originally published in Guns Magazine, April 2005)

Shotguns today are sort of like water, they seem to run either hot or cold based on the current vogue or what's hot or considered cold in the firearms market. Like all present-day firearms technology there as been a massive amount of accessory add-on attention paid to them over the last few years. Shotguns have had a lot of tactical stuff added to them whether they needed it or not and sometimes current buyers of new shotguns are awe struck if a plain Remington 870 shows up at the range dressed in it's 20" plain barrel with a beaded sight.

"I've never seen a shotgun like that before, where's all the good stuff?" Good stuff being interpreted as the flashlight, the extra shell holders, folding stocks, magazine extensions, safety extensions, ghost-ring sights, red-dot sights mounted on a Picatinny rail and last, but surely not least, the tactical one-point attached sling. Tacticaled out, they weigh in the 10- to 15-pound range unloaded.

I am going to venture a wild guess that in the whole of American private gun safes and closets there are more "non-tactical" than tactical shotguns. Betcha. So, then could we--you or I--defend ourselves with a plain old 1950, '60 or '70's vintage Remington 870 with a 20" barrel beaded sight shotgun or better yet that 28" modified choke duck gun? Or, heaven forbid is my home defensible with grandpa's 30" full choke shoot' em-across-the-pond scattergun?

I thought I would find out. So, I took several old Remington 870 shotguns (because I like them and have a couple, don't you know) and I shot some stuff. I used four types of ammunition; a couple of types those duck hunters might use and then a couple of those tactical kinda load thingies to keep the resident tacticals happy.

Ammunition

All the ammunition used for the test was factory-fresh 12 gauge broken down into these categories: Winchester AA 7 1/2 shot measuring .092" diameter. I took one apart, counted 416 pellets. Next, was Remington No. 6 Express sporting the high-base case. Its 270 pellets measured about .114" in diameter (or seemed to in my bifocals).

To keep the resident tacticals happy, I used Remington No. 4 buck with the caliber of pellets enclosed being a nominal .243" and numbering 27 pellets inside the case. For the big-hole folks, t used Remington 00 Buck, which had 9 pellets per shell measuring about .325" in diameter.

Inside the home, the size of the shot is probably not as important as the placement of the hit on the threat. All of the impacts on the test targets hit at room-size ranges varied from rat-hole type wounds to leaving quite a substantial mark, which would be pretty devastating to the recipient

The Guns

Three Remington 870 12 gauges were used. One 18" barrel with about a .730 choke, a second 870 with a 28" barrel with a nominal .700 choke and a third gun with a 30" full-choke barrel measuring in with about a .685 constriction at the muzzle. Pattern sizes for five distances were documented using the three different guns and four different loads. Measurements were based on farthest pellet hole to farthest pellet hole and rounded to a 1/4". All firing was done from kneeling to add some degree of stability and consistency to the testing.

Tactical Touching

Probably the two key points of interest in this category is the overall size of the long-barreled shotgun for movement through the home and ammunition availability as it relates to number of rounds available before reloading.

The longer barrel guns require constant attention to barrel location so as to not "lead" it around corners. I personally would prefer to work with the butt of the shotgun in the shoulder and the muzzle depressed being sure to keep the muzzle from covering my feet. The overall length of the shotgun is an issue of concern, but not an overpowering one to anyone willing to spend some time practicing movement and application in their home. Should someone close the ground and make an attempt to disarm me I should be--or would be--in fear for my life, and would step back as well as I could to establish a platform while lifting the front of the shotgun tip directing the muzzle towards said disarmer. If the muzzle came onto any part of them I would discharge the gun into their lower extremities. This again based on the fact that I was in fear for my life and willing to use deadly force on my opponent.

The short-barreled gun would not present much of, if any of a problem. The standard overall length of firing pistols extended at arms length are in fact not much shorter than the overall of the properly deployed short-barreled shotgun.

Most shotguns of manageable weight and size hold four to six shells. This equates to or parallels about a cylinder full of revolver ammunition. The key to ammunition and ammunition capacities is in my opinion twofold, to keep continuity of fire downrange, while reducing loading manipulations required to top the weapons system off. So it then becomes simple, the more I shoot, the sooner I will need to reload and the ammo issue comes into play. Also consider that most hunting guns have the magazine plugged at for a total capacity of three. If you pull the plug, be sure you put it back in before hunting again.

Food for Thought

Know your gun and ammunition. Pattern your gun with whatever type or make of ammunition you like or whichever gives you the best results. Have extra ammunition on your shotgun. Shotguns are usually stored in racks or closets until needed. When and if the time comes you probably will forget shell belts and carriers. Shell carriers mounted on the gun avoids a major weakness of the shotgun--the availability of extra amino. Mount a side-saddle-type carrier on your gun.

Shoot one and load one, conditions permitting. The gun will go "empty" quicker than you think because of a limited capacity, practice loading ... a lot! You should practice loading the shotgun while keeping the butt on your shoulder and the shotgun muzzle on the threat or threat area.

If the target is still available or a threat to you, shoot twice or more to overlay the patterns of pellets on the target, the more holes in the bad guy the better.

As another point of interest, folks often think shotguns psychologically intimidate a threat, including the novel concept of cycling the action to intimidate or let the guy know you mean business. Me, I would rather thunk them with a load of shot in the centerline "just so you know I mean business." If you want to scare them, wear an ugly rubber mask. It's probably a bad idea to show off or "sound off" your playing cards so to speak before you use them. You never can tell, you cycle the action to scare them, and they shoot at the sound (and you first). It could happen to you and has happened to others before.

And one more thought to surely aggravate some folks. You want a pistol get a pistol. Put a stock on the shotgun and mount it to your shoulder and aim. The pistol grip things sans a shoulder stock are goofy. I have seen more than one guy bash his teeth out holding the stockless gun up near their face while shooting. Recoil, don't you know.

Strengths

The shotgun is a powerful and effective weapon--especially if you hit the target. Shotguns are usually mechanically robust--especially the ones with the least amount of add-on stuff, and they can often work just swell without all the junk.

Good Add Ons?

Sights

I grasp the ghost ring sight concept, but find very few who enjoy shooting rifled slugs and even fewer agencies that allow them to be used on busy streets. Not to be misleading or misunderstood, rifled slugs are a valuable addition to the ammunition spectrum and may be useful for shotguns in some applications. Rifled sights help to shoot slugs more accurately, but slugs are not the norm nor are they any fun to shoot in great amounts. The standard bead sight is more prevalent and would serve most shotgun shooters well enough for personal defense. Some of the factory beads are small and, in my bifocal mode with advanced aging eyes, I like and mount the XS Sight bead on my guns which happens to have a night insert and are larger thereby letting my eyes see the sights better, period.

Shell holders

Several people make good side-mounted extra ammunition carriers. The first one I ever had--and still have--is a Milt Sparks made leather butt cuff. Today, I also really like the polymer side saddles made by Wilson Combat which mounts on the side of the receiver, is rigid, holds the shells well and allows a stock weld either right or left handed in case of injury or cover considerations.

Redundancy, one more time, extra ammunition mounted on the shotgun is a good idea.

Slings

Slings to long guns are equal to what holsters are to handguns. I am not wild about the vogue tactical strangulation and garrote slings and much prefer a normal carry strap. The less complicated the better. To be fair, the one advantage I can see for the tactical slings, if it is a relatively simple design, is it may--key phrase--may help in retention at close contact situations. You will carry the gun more than you will ever shoot it in a fight so, carries and dismounts should be practiced.

Lights

Shotgun mounted lights may be helpful and serve a purpose on an individual basis. Each shotgun user will have to decide if the shotgun mounted light solves a problem for them that truly exists. Even if there is a gun-mounted light, one should practice hand-held techniques as well to pre-empt potential problems that may arise while using gun-mounted lights.

In The Blind or Hallway

You can see from the patterning tests, regardless of the barrel length, it is probably a sure thing that you must aim, the closer you are the better you should aim, the pattern is smaller and it is more effective with a tight pattern, but only if the pattern of shot hits the target. Because you hit the target doesn't mean the bad guy or the duck is down, it simply means you hit them. They may--to your dismay--continue to fly or fight. If so, shoot again, and shoot well.

GUN AND SHELL PATTERN SIZE
CHOKE IN INCHES

DISTANCE 3 YARDS

18" Cylinder #7 4 3/4
#6 3 3/4
#4B 3 3/4
00B 2 1/2
28" Modified #7 2 1/2
#6 2
#4B 2 1/2
00B 2
30" Full #7 2 1/2
#6 1 3/4
#4B 2
00B 2

DISTANCE 5 YARDS

18" Cylinder #7 9
#6 7
#4B 6 1/2
00B 4
28" Modified #7 4 1/2
#6 5
#4B 4
00B 2 1/2
30" Full #7 5
#6 4 1/2
#4B 4 1/2
00B 3

DISTANCE 7 YARDS

18" Cylinder #7 12
#6 11
#4B 9 1/2
00B 6 1/2
28" Modified #7 7
#6 7
#4B 5 1/2
00B 4
30" Full #7 6
#6 5
#4B 5 1/2
00B 3

DISTANCE 10 YARDS

18" Cylinder #7 16
#6 16
#4B 13
00B 0
28" Modified #7 9
#6 11
#4B 8 1/2
00B 5 1/2
30" Full #7 8
#6 7
00B 4 1/2

DISTANCE 20 YARDS

18" Cylinder #7 29
#6 30
#4B 21
00B 13
28" Modified #7 18
#6 20
#4B 16
00B 9
30" Full #7 15
#6 21
#4B 16
00B 12

Gonna close here, as this is getting long...

hth,

lpl

[Fred Fuller]

Now i don't know how much background and experience you have with firearms in general. No matter what, I'd like to introduce you to the largest network of firearms trainers in the country- NRA certified instructors. Just go to http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp . There you will find links to descriptions of the available classes, and a locator which will help you find instructors/classes near you. That is assuming of course that you don't have a dear old uncle (and aunt) to show you the ropes :D.

Gunfighting is different from sport shooting. True, you have to learn to shoot safely and competently first. But there are some differences between sport shooting and gunfighting that need to be taken into account. Please learn them. It isn't a matter of the stuff you bolt onto your gun- it's what you train yourself to do that matters.

Using a smaller bore shotgun with smaller pellets will mean you have to be ready to do more of the work yourself to mount a truly effective defense. You will have to shoot straight under terrible stress- not an easy task at all. You will have to manipulate the gun correctly without fail, which means you will have to have had a good deal of practice, because you may have to shoot more than once (even with a 12 gauge and buckshot making good hits, it might be necessary to shoot more than once- I am not casting aspersions on you or your gun). You CAN do it, and your gun can do it. Most likely you will never have to defend your home with your shotgun. But it isn't the odds that matter in a situation like that- it's the stakes.

You need to have confidence in yourself and in your gun, please don't let anything I have said diminish that confidence. With training and practice, that confidence will grow and grow. Any shooting you do with your shotgun- hand thrown clay targets, skeet, hunting, or practice on the flat range- will help.

Stay Safe,

lpl

[Birdhunter1]

The reason I said #4 or #6 birdshot is because an incident in a home the shots will be under 10 yards most likely and the pattern will be so tight that it will do alot of damage regardless of the size of the shot you use. I once fired into the tin on an old barn from 15' or so to see a pattern and the #4 birdshot penetrated the back of the barn just the same as the #4 buck did.

[berettashotgun]

.54 round balls re-crimped into existing picked apart loaded hulls will hurt from afar, not recommended, but will still get you by.
I really want to try some sabots from a muzzleloader in my reloads.
A 28ga. loaded with pure air is a much better choice for home defense than a telephone or a stick or a knife or a ...........

[JohnBT]

www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=0721628

28 ga. round ball slug for reloading.

[Fred Fuller]

Well, we live and learn.

Stars and Stripes ( http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/index2.html ) loads a production 28 gauge slug. And they might load a shot size large enough to be of some use in defensive applications as well. It would sure be worth getting in touch with them to find out IMHO.

http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/index2.html

8340 Ulmerton Road
Suite 206
Largo, FL 33771
(727) 530-1129

StarsStripesAmmo@Hotmail.com

hth,

lpl