Kahr-Moonie connection??


PDA






RM
September 26, 2003, 09:04 PM
So what's the deal? The owner of Kahr is a moonie? Was a moonie? His father is a moonie? Or is the Kahr-moonie connnection just a false rumor?

If you enjoyed reading about "Kahr-Moonie connection??" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
DMK
September 26, 2003, 09:16 PM
The designer of Kahr pistol, Justin Moon, is the son of reverend Sun Myung Moon.

Not that it matters a bit about whether the pistol is good or not. I've got a lot of Russian and Chinese guns. That doesn't mean I condone communism. :rolleyes:

dfariswheel
September 26, 2003, 09:34 PM
And in addition to which, no one knows if Justin Moon adheres to his father's beliefs or not.

This IS America, the sins of the father's thing and all.

The Reverend
September 26, 2003, 09:49 PM
Yes indeed...DMK hit the nail on the head.

Kook Jin "Justin" Nim Moon is a son of the infamous Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification church (members sometimes referred to as "Moonies"). The only apparent connection between the two is the family bond.

This is a statement from the Unification website on the topic:

Unification Church Response to Washington Post
article regarding Kahr Arms
In response to a recent article in the Washington Post,
"Moon Empire Gets a Bang For Its Buck" by John Mintz 3/10/99.

The articles which appear in the Washington Post and elsewhere paint a picture of the Unification Church as a sprawling, monolithic business empire, even going so far as to quote a private investigator who states," Moon no longer looks at the church as the core organization. The movement's business part is the enduring part."

This is a fallacy. Rev. Moon is a religious leader first and an entrepreneur only in the service of his religious mission. He is a visionary. Any businesses which Rev. Moon founded have been for the purpose of supporting his religious goals, which is the establishment of a world of peace centered on God.

Businesses founded either by Rev. Moon or Unification Church members provide financial support for our families. We have nothing to defend about the way our businesses are structured or how they operate. Businesses are not the enduring aspect of our faith community, they are a natural aspect of life common to all religious communities.

The Unification Church of America has no business ties to Kahr Arms. The Unification Church operates as a legal, religious non-profit and has no interest in manufacturing guns. While some of our church members may be opposed to the manufacturing of guns, it is not inconsistent with Church teaching.

Unification doctrine teaches non-aggression while supporting the right to defend one's self and defend others against evil. In this sense, we hold in common with other faiths that it is not a violation of religious principles to invest in legitimate industries. The Church of England, for instance, considers it appropriate to invest its resources in a legitimate defense industry which produces arms under government license.

Kahr guns are sold mainly to law enforcement agencies and have been praised by them as an effective deterrent against crime, thus they serve a useful purpose in fighting crime.

From a religious viewpoint, the need for the police and the military to have weapons is due to man's sinful nature. Once the religious ideal of a peaceful world is realized, this need for weapons will be made obsolete.

Like the Church of England, the Unification Church believes all weapon manufacturing and distribution should be subject to ethical criteria and open to continual review to insure that these weapons are not used to promote repression or further the cause of tyranny.

Sincerely,

Chris Corcoran
Public Affairs Director
Unification Church of America
March 15, 1999


You can understand that as a Southern Baptist minister, I have struggle enough dragging my denominations folks into the modern era in some areas. All I know is the Kahr line of handguns are among the finest USA made guns, and I am glad I have one.

Do you know where your McDonald's money, grocery store's profits, or automobile maker's money is donated? If you look, you may not like what you find. While I do not stand with the Rev. Moon in theological issues, his sone sure has a whiz-bang of a handgun design!

God Bless!

tomkatz
September 26, 2003, 09:52 PM
from an interview Ayoob had with Justin Moon......

Ayoob: What is your reaction when folks try to bring religion into your business.....

Moon: I am a member of the Unification Church, but I don't hold any formal positions in the church. I proudly participate in and support my church and community. This is, after all, a free country. I cherish my First Ammendment rights as well as my Second Amendment rights.....

10-Ring
September 26, 2003, 09:55 PM
His formal position in the church is as an outside form of income! I would bet he's making a pretty good donation to it every year ;)

jc2
September 26, 2003, 10:40 PM
Undoubtedly, a portion of the money an individual spends on a Kahr handgun (or Thompson submachinegun/carbine) goes to the Unification "Church."

It should be a matter of individual conscience whether an individual chooses to contribute indirectly to that religious body by the purchase of a Kahr handgun. If a person chooses not to contribute directly or indirectly to the Unification "Church" by purchasing a Kahr handgun, it is every bit as much of a religious freedom as Justin Moon's religious affiliation.

Discussion of the matter (including Justin Moon's religious affiliation), assuming the proper level of civility is maintained, is well within the scope of public forum. One point to remember in the discussion, Kahr is not a publicly owned corporation--it is a sole proprietorship.

Gordon
September 26, 2003, 10:54 PM
I think PMC ammo at one time was also connected to Moonies. I don't like Kahr's , I don't like PMC ammo and I don't like Moonies, but that is my right . I support his right to make his guns and ammo though. I like Mormons better than Moonies , although I am a "gentile" I thinK JMB WAS a saint. So much for religion and gun makers already!:p

mtnbkr
September 27, 2003, 12:12 AM
What's wrong with the Moonies? Seriously, I've not heard much about them, good or bad.

Chris

The Reverend
September 27, 2003, 12:14 AM
Sorry to have stirred up the bees in your bonnet, but I don't think any of us have defended "Moonies" at all, at least in this forum.

Guys that have Kahr pistols and worship them defend Moonies like Liberals defend gun control.

I don't think that by stating my pleasure and satisfaction for my Kahr pistol constitutes "worship". I would consider myself somewhat of an expert in that arena and I can say that NONE of my pistols ever get that position in my life. Likewise, no one has defended the "Moonies" as a group, at least to say "to each his own". And to equate those who "praise" Kahrs as well performing pieces of engineering to Liberals who defend gun control is as laughable as it is uncalled for.

I have a certain expectation for the folks that utilize forums such as these will promote a level of maturity so that even the most sensitive topics (ie religion) can at least be mentioned in civility. I will continue to forge ahead with optimism and expectation.

Bottom line...Kahr Arms International makes good equipment. Those of us who are inclined to agree with that ideal will purchase. Those who want to go elsewhere, will.

That's America folks! I am proud to be apart of it.

God Bless

garrettwc
September 27, 2003, 12:54 AM
Undoubtedly, a portion of the money an individual spends on a Kahr handgun (or Thompson submachinegun/carbine) goes to the Unification "Church."

True. However, a portion of that purchase also goes to fund various government agencies, and pay the salaries of congress men and women who seek to take them away from us.

Guys that have Kahr pistols and worship them defend Moonies like Liberals defend gun control.
Keep your Kahrs; they're not getting a single cent from me.

Flyer, applying your logic to the fact I stated to contrast JC2's comment, should we then never purchase any guns?

It is of interest to note at this point that while I do not own any Kahrs, I do own three different models of John M. Browning designs. John M. Browning, for those that do not know, was a Mormon. Does this make me a supporter of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Snowdog
September 27, 2003, 01:59 AM
Not that it matters a bit about whether the pistol is good or not. I've got a lot of Russian and Chinese guns. That doesn't mean I condone communism

Couldn't have said it better myself.

AUTIGER04
September 27, 2003, 04:19 AM
WOW!! I learn something different everyday. A Moonie owns Kahr? Well I can scratch that pistol off my list.

ps,
The Moonies are Weird!:neener:

only1asterisk
September 27, 2003, 07:46 AM
If you don't want to deal with Kahr Arms because of Justin Moon's beliefs, don't. As far as I'm concerned, you can choose to spend your money with whoever you want. I'm curious how you find out who's pocket your money ends up in and what other products you apply this principal to. Do you call Ford and ask about the beliefs of the people that designed your truck? Like I said, just curious.

I have a Jewish tailor, a Catholic plumber, a agnostic electrician, and several Hindu employees. The money I pay my employees goes into the their pockets, and after that I don't care what they do with it. I don't see that conflicting with my beliefs at all. I don't know what people do with the money I pay them. If they are lucky, they get to spend it on guns, ammo and range memberships.



David

jc2
September 27, 2003, 09:41 AM
garrettwc -
True. However, a portion of that purchase also goes to fund various government agencies, and pay the salaries of congress men and women who seek to take them away from us.
Very true, unfortunately, but the same is true of any handgun--or any other purchase that is taxed by the federal government in the United States including most basic necessities, BUT, on the other hand, I can and do avoid doing business with companies that actively support gun control (or any other activities I find particularly objectionable). It's called responsible citizenship.

If an individual does not want to directly or indirectly support the Unification "Church" as a matter of conscience then they should not buy Kahr products, period. Again, Kahr is a private company (versus a publicly owned corporation). Its actual relationship to the Unification "Church" is unclear in terms of funding and finances. The founder and nominal owner is a practicing "Moonie" and the son of the founder and head of the Unification "Church." Undoubtedly, a portion of the money an individual spends on a Kahr handgun goes to directly or indirectly to the the Unification "Church." (Justin Moon, as quoted previously, "I proudly participate in and support my church . . .")

It is matter of individual conscience. It really has absolutely nothing to do with whether JMB was LDS or not (besides, he's been dead almost a hundred years), it has nothing to do with whether you own a handgun from a former communist country (you certainly didn't while it was a communist country, and your money did not go directly or indirectly to support the communist party/government--I doubt many of you were willingly making contributions to former Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War).

Win75
September 27, 2003, 11:59 AM
I plan on buying a Kahr pistol in the near future.

That has nothing to do with where the money goes after I release it.

If we could backtrack into every business that we spend money with, we would find that...using the frame of mind that we will not do business with any company that contributes to anti-gun, anti- 2nd amendment organizations...we would need to return ourselves to the beginning and become self supporting. Money spent in the public venue, finds it's way into the anti-gunners pockets no matter what we do about it.

David.

Stinger
September 27, 2003, 01:31 PM
If John Browning hadn't been a Mormon, which, of course, is of the Christian faith, I'd never own a single gun the man designed. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Stinger

mete
September 27, 2003, 02:29 PM
mtnbkr, it was established years ago that the Unification Church is in fact a cult. I remember the comments of the trooper that they sent in under cover, he said it was the most frightening thing he ever experienced. Be that as it may Kahr Arms has stated it has no connection with the UC .I will accept that. They do make some very nice guns.

The Reverend
September 27, 2003, 02:31 PM
Because of my faith, I am particularly interested in how I spend my money... It is called Stewardship. I have a desire to be a good steward of what I have been blessed with. Part of that means having a good awareness of what is done with the profits beyond me. But understand, if you take that to its logical end, I am going to be hunting my own food, drilling for my own oil, and closing myself from the rest of the world practically speaking. From the farmers, manufacturers, trucking firms, retailers, financial institutions, and the list goes on... I will never know where all my money may end up. I would have to ask each individual who will profit from my spending what their beliefs are... who is going to do that? How many of us ask that of the car dealerships we have done business with, or the Super-Market, or the restaurant (servers, managers, owners)? We can drive ourselves crazy with this issue!

All I can do is what I can do. I cannot be a "good steward" for anybody else, just me. So I buy the best I can afford (Toyota/Nissan/Honda, SIG/Kahr/S&W/Ruger, Craftsman tools, Toro lawn equip...you get my point) based on what I believe my needs are. In this case, IF the Unification "church" owned K.A.I., I might stop to think out the potential conflict. But this is not the case.

Again gents, I am not trying to bash anyone or convince you to buy Kahr products. I am hopefully just comunicating what it is I do, and how I do it.

God Bless!

MrAcheson
September 27, 2003, 02:31 PM
The real trick with Kahr is not Justin Moon's religion. I'm not a Mormon but I like JMB's guns. Likewise Justin and the Moonies. Justin Moon is free to spend his money wherever he wants including supporting his father's church. I support my church with my money after all.

However Kahr arms was founded using capital borrowed from either Reverend Moon or the Unification Church. So the company is (or was) in large part owned by the Church or Reverend Moon. As far as I know, Justin Moon may be slowly buying them out of the business. However a company operated by Moonies is a different than a company owned by the church.

JohnBT
September 27, 2003, 03:58 PM
Me? I'm always amazed when religious intolerance and hated rears its ugly head.

I guess I'm old enough that I shouldn't be surprised and disappointed by my fellow human beings, but I am.

John

AUTIGER04
September 27, 2003, 04:18 PM
Reverend, Check your private message.

John, Theres certain things that I find hard to discuss with people. Religion, Guns and Politics.;)

ps
The Moonies are still weird. They take credit for GWB being elected President?:scrutiny:

KarlG
September 27, 2003, 04:41 PM
"Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with. His mind was created for his own thoughts, not yours or mine."
Henry S. Haskins

doctorhumbert
September 27, 2003, 05:13 PM
I don't care if the moonies sacrifice chicken or worship Baccus. Discriminating people based on their religion is plain wrong.

Heck, you may even make an argument that good old Christianity is an anti-social and intelorant religion, with old testimont condoning the slavery (that is, if you are only willing to look up what you want to look up in the bible).

If you wanna boycott someone simply based on their religion or nationality, I suggest you hang out with these guys.

http://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035/boycott1.jpg

jar
September 27, 2003, 05:22 PM
Well, Justin may be a Moonie, JMB a Mormon but Christ was a Jew. :D :D

Are the guns that he makes good?

What possible difference can the faith of the person make when it comes to designing a gun?

I'm always amazed when folk get all upset about someone elses religion. As long as they are not denying you your own belief system, what possible diference can it make?

Perhaps, at some time, each of us will find out what TRUTH there is in our beliefs. I'm sure that it will matter at that time to that individual, but beyond that I can see absolutely no difference between Christian, Jew, Muslem, and Moonie.

The Reverend
September 27, 2003, 07:50 PM
I can see absolutely no difference between Christian, Jew, Muslem, and Moonie.



Limiting the pervue of the discussion to firearms, shooting, and gun design... neither can I.

God Bless!

doctorhumbert
September 27, 2003, 07:55 PM
beyond that I can see absolutely no difference between Christian, Jew, Muslem, and Moonie.
Oh my. I sure can.

According to Christian doctorine there is clear difference between above stated religion followers.
I am assuming Flyer sees them differently since non-Christians do not accept Jesus as a Christ, which according to Christians is difference between heaven and hell.

My only concern is 'do you treat them differently'?

If you do, there is nothing to stop you;
but thanks GOD for freedom of religion and seperation of church and state in this great country, and second amendment to defend it!

RM
September 27, 2003, 08:58 PM
As the writer of this thread, I am glad to now know the relationship of Justin Kahr and the moonies. And I have been very interested in the responses. However, at this time I would like to suggest (not insist) that we end this thread. I think all of us got the point that it is an individual decision to buy a Kahr gun or not. But I think this thread is now degenerating into a religious debate, which is usually frustrating and a big waste of time and not the point of this forum. Thanks all for your replies.

PCRCCW
September 27, 2003, 09:46 PM
Now.....wo boy, hold your horses. I want to add a thing or three before you go closing this down....k? :D

Ive read many articles about Justins "business loan from his dad"...from Justin himself. The Church has no formal nor legal interest in the gun company. His dad loaned him the money to get the business off of the ground. His dad happens to be the leader of a church. The point is if his dad was a machinest and owned a machining company...he still would have gotten the loan from him. There is no connection between the Moonies and Kahr other than that.

If your dad was a minister..the odds are you would be a pretty devout follower of said religion. Thats the way life works.

The fact that Justin Moon says hes a member in good standing..doesnt mean hes giving them any part of the Kahr Arms Companies money.

The fact this thread ran the somewhat wrong way....really doesnt surprise me. This is an oldy and a dead horse of a subject...in ways.

If you want an example of how some peoples point of view is just plain FUBAR'D! Just think of Adriana Huphington..saying if you drive an SUV...youre supporting terrorism. What a F'd up society we live in.

Ive owned Kahrs, I have one in my safe..and you can bet Ill have more before Im done.

And I frankly dont give a damn or not, if the company is connected with the Moonies.

Shoot well :evil:

tomkatz
September 27, 2003, 09:52 PM
I have been right in the middle of this exact discussion on other forums, that is why I stayed out of this one, I have never seen anything settled, nobody changes their mind suddenly and says "I'm buying a kahr now". I have enjoyed reading the various viewpoints though.
One thing I haven't seen brought up though, if you buy a used kahr gun, that money goes to your gunshop or whoever is selling the pistol, Justin Moon already collected on it when it sold new. Does the kahr name stand as such a symbol to you anti-kahr folks that you wouldn't even buy one used?........tom

556A2
September 27, 2003, 11:32 PM
Surplus TT-33s and Makarovs that member of the board own were probably used as "political reeducation" tools during the Soviet Union. Doesn't seem to stop people from buying them. If CZ, Glock, H&K, Busmaster annouced their CEO was a satanist I could care less, if the product is stellar and they support the 2nd it doesn't matter what they do. If a gun company supports the 2nd they are your and our friend period.

garrettwc
September 28, 2003, 05:27 PM
Very true, unfortunately, but the same is true of any handgun--or any other purchase that is taxed by the federal government in the United States including most basic necessities, BUT, on the other hand, I can and do avoid doing business with companies that actively support gun control (or any other activities I find particularly objectionable). It's called responsible citizenship.

jc2, on this we agree. I prefer jeans other than Levi's because of their published contributions to the anti-gun movement.

Because of my faith, I am particularly interested in how I spend my money... It is called Stewardship. I have a desire to be a good steward of what I have been blessed with. Part of that means having a good awareness of what is done with the profits beyond me. But understand, if you take that to its logical end, I am going to be hunting my own food, drilling for my own oil, and closing myself from the rest of the world practically speaking. From the farmers, manufacturers, trucking firms, retailers, financial institutions, and the list goes on... I will never know where all my money may end up. I would have to ask each individual who will profit from my spending what their beliefs are... who is going to do that? How many of us ask that of the car dealerships we have done business with, or the Super-Market, or the restaurant (servers, managers, owners)? We can drive ourselves crazy with this issue!

All I can do is what I can do. I cannot be a "good steward" for anybody else, just me. So I buy the best I can afford (Toyota/Nissan/Honda, SIG/Kahr/S&W/Ruger, Craftsman tools, Toro lawn equip...you get my point) based on what I believe my needs are. In this case, IF the Unification "church" owned K.A.I., I might stop to think out the potential conflict. But this is not the case.

Again gents, I am not trying to bash anyone or convince you to buy Kahr products. I am hopefully just comunicating what it is I do, and how I do it.

God Bless!

Well said Reverend.

Quartus
September 28, 2003, 05:53 PM
seperation of church and state in this great country


:confused:


Two questions:


[list=1]
What has seperation of church and state got to do with this thread?

What is a Second Amendment supporter doing spouting that wretched fabrication?
[/list=1]


HINT: There's no such thing the the First Amendment, nor anywhere else in the document.

Gordon
September 28, 2003, 06:37 PM
Um, there is NO "separation of church and state" in any founding father's documents I've read yet. What IS forbiden is the State to impose any religion . Other than that it's the ole "living document" BS that has cost us our rights! I don't like the design of Kahrs, or the design of the Unification church. ;)

doctorhumbert
September 28, 2003, 06:51 PM
What has seperation of church and state got to do with this thread?

Not much.
How much does YOUR post have to do with the original thread?

Look, the original poster has expressed his opinion that this thread to END NOW! If you wanna continue on, you may start new thread at religion and politic, or P.M. me.

As for the 'Separation of the church and State', I am not going into the anti-separationist / accomodationist argument.
The US Supreme Court has already interpreted the First Amendment as if it requires this "wall of separation" between church and state. It not only prohibits any government from adopting a particular denomination or religion as official, but requires government to avoid any involvement in religion.

[B]
Kahl makes great product with good consumer feedback, whether their relation ship to certain religion make your decision with the purchase, that's for you to decide.[/B

THIS WILL BE MY FINAL POST IN THIS THREAD. I AM OUT.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion Article 1.

"...I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State..." Thomas JEfferson.

.Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history :
James Madison]

Zenon
September 28, 2003, 09:24 PM
Substitute Jew for Moonie and be disgusted.

I am.

Moderator, I dare you to close this thread.

harrydog
September 28, 2003, 09:54 PM
Flyer said:
"I am a Christian, and do not even entertain the IDEA of any other God other than my own. Yep, we've got free speech, all right. Also freedom of worship.
I know it bothers some individuals when people have firm beliefs and refuse to budge from them. But, this is a free country, yes? Allrighty, then!
If John Browning hadn't been a Mormon, which, of course, is of the Christian faith, I'd never own a single gun the man designed.
Sorry.
Flyer"


While the Unification Church is certainly not my cup of tea, it's worth noting that they are a variation of the Christian belief, and therefore believe in the same God as you and John Browning! I believe the Rev. Moon says he got his inspiration to form his church after a personal visit from Jesus!
He may be nuts, (or maybe just a con-man) but you need to get the facts straight as to why you don't like the Moonies. It's not because they believe in a different God than you.

Tamara
September 28, 2003, 10:30 PM
But I think this thread is now degenerating into a religious debate, which is usually frustrating and a big waste of time and not the point of this forum.

Right in one. :scrutiny:

If you enjoyed reading about "Kahr-Moonie connection??" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!