We Would Do Well To Remember


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Treo
January 13, 2009, 08:26 PM
I was at the gunshow this weekend, it was full of people who had NO CLUE about guns. I actually saw a woman pick up a small revolver and ask if it was a semiauto and did it have a safety. You know what the owner did? Acted like that was the most intellegent question he'd heard all day and answered it as such.

My point is that because of this election a lot of people who never would have considered gun ownership now own guns that they know nothing about.

Where are they going to learn?

Well, I'll tell you this they won't learn it here if we keep labling them as trolls at their first stupid question.

I have changed my stance on several key issues since coming to THR, mostly through interaction W/ more experienced members.

But if I showed up today and asked some of the stupid questions I asked then I would be labled a troll by my second post.

I wouldn't have stayed here that's for sure and I might have ended up over on some AHSA forum being indoctrinated by them.

You might want to consider that the next time someone who can't spell ( I go to a college FULL of them) shows up here asking stupid questions

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JImbothefiveth
January 13, 2009, 08:28 PM
Good point and good rant.

Kind of Blued
January 13, 2009, 08:35 PM
I agree. People with horrible grammar, I try to just ignore, because it hurts my brain, and if I can't say anything nice...

I'm more than happy to answer any little question I can though. We need as many people as possible who feel comfortable and proud to be "in the gun culture" exercising their rights. Those new gun owners might be next to you at the range next time. Let's put the right advice in their head, for everyone's sake.

Golden Hound
January 13, 2009, 08:47 PM
I was at the gunshow this weekend, it was full of people who had NO CLUE about guns. I actually saw a woman pick up a small revolver and ask if it was a semiauto and did it have a safety. You know what the owner did? Acted like that was the most intellegent question he'd heard all day and answered it as such.

You spelled "intelligent" wrong! (NOT trying to make fun of you - just pointing out the irony of that. I know you're a smart guy and it was just an honest mistake.)

The fact that she was a young woman probably helped. I mean, if I was selling guns and a young woman came up to me and asked me that question, I wouldn't say, "don't you know ANYTHING about guns?" OK, unless I was using the pickup-artist technique known as a "negative" (half-insulting a woman in a sarcastic but playful way) but even in that case, I wouldn't be genuinely mean about it. Discounting that scenario, I think the seller was probably just being professional by acting like her question was intelligent (I mean, what else was he supposed to do? Tell her she was an idiot?) He is, after all, there to SELL stuff...you don't sell stuff by telling your potential customers that they're stupid.

threefeathers
January 13, 2009, 08:48 PM
I've come to the conclusion that a bunch of folks who cry Troll have absolutely no concept of which they speak.

U.S.SFC_RET
January 13, 2009, 08:52 PM
I vote for those who are willing to try. Willing to try to find out and willing to try how to teach those who want to know.

John828
January 13, 2009, 08:54 PM
I may be totally misunderstanding your post, threefeathers, and, if I am, please grant me some grace; but, Treo is no troll.

John828
January 13, 2009, 09:00 PM
U.S.SFC_RET I vote for those who are willing to try. Willing to try to find out and willing to try how to teach those who want to know.

Amen and hallelujah. We, the agnostics, +1.

Man, we have been conditioned to believe that mistakes are bad things. Best lessons I have learned have been from mistakes. Seriously, there are no dumb questions, just the Academy gun counter guys. (Okay, that was below the belt.)

Give grace, be patient, and realize that everyone was a newbie at one time. I do that in a lot of areas of my life but not perfectly. The gym is one area that hits hard. Everyone has to make a start somewhere. So give the scrawny guy in the corner some credit for even trying to pick up twenty pounds. Don't laugh! At least he got off the couch. Same thing for the big people, give them credit for trying.

Guns are absolutely the same. "Does this revolver have a safety?" Yes ma'am. It is your finger and let me show you why, etc., etc..

psyopspec
January 13, 2009, 09:00 PM
Troll.




Just kidding, Treo. You make a good point. I would like to add that if someone is replying to a thread to point out the poster's alleged trolldom, and they truly believe that to be the case, the best option is not to reply at all. Trolls are like scabs, or street beggars; ignore them long enough, and they go away on their own.

For others of us (including me from time to time) it's harder not to sound like a condescending jerk when responding to the less initiated, especially if they extol knowledge born of sheer ignorance. I do try to play nice though.

Larry Ashcraft
January 13, 2009, 09:03 PM
And, things are not always as they appear...

John828
January 13, 2009, 09:05 PM
psyopspec,

Where have you been lately? Haven't seen you posting. OT, sorry.

Great points psyops, condescinding is subjective at best especially for the defensive types. If only we could rid ourselves of this ego problem. :banghead:

heron
January 13, 2009, 09:36 PM
The steepest part of the learning curve is recognizable as the condition of not knowing what questions to ask. Still, if they're asking questions, that shows that they are at least seeking the cure for their ignorance, and we should respond appropriately.

Titan6
January 13, 2009, 09:39 PM
And, things are not always as they appear...

On the internet things are never as they appear. May as well be called a world wide web of lies.

esmith
January 13, 2009, 09:41 PM
I agree Treo. I would rather have a small community of gun owners that were educated about safety than a huge community that knew nothing.

If someone asks an honest question, no matter how dumb or obvious, it should be answered.

mr.243
January 13, 2009, 09:42 PM
why in the hell would you complain about that? i mean it could be looked at as a good thing right? better asking a few questions than just grabbing it up, i like how people tend to forget things. you didnt know anything about guns at one time either. at least thats another supporter in my eyes.

benEzra
January 13, 2009, 09:52 PM
Well said, Treo.

mnrivrat
January 14, 2009, 02:04 AM
why in the hell would you complain about that?

You need to read the whole post . He is not complaining, he is giving example of what should happen when someone without knowledge asks a question. And like the OP, I would like to see the members here concern themselves with answering questions in a appropriate manner.

Reminding a new poster/shooter that they can't spell ,instead of answering a simple question , is not my idea of doing it right.

moooose102
January 14, 2009, 06:39 AM
i agree. some people just can not spell worth beans. my wife is one of them. i guess english just wasn't important to her, or she had several bad teachers, or a combination of both. i came out of school with a d average in english. i can spell to an acceptable level for the real world, and that is good enough for me. if your only real goal in life is to put down people who are not english schollars, maybe you should think about finding an english language blog and go there.

MachIVshooter
January 14, 2009, 08:34 AM
I showed up today and asked some of the stupid questions I asked then I would be labled a troll by my second post.

I haven't seen this. The newcomers who are given that title are the ones showing up and saying things like "I believe in these sensible gun control measures" in their very first post (we al know which ones I'm talking about).

As for the spelling thing, I agree. This is a message board for guns, not a college thesis. I personally spell very well, but sometimes type too fast and/or don't proof read my post. If the error is minor, I generally won't bother to edit. That said, when the spelling or grammar of a post is so bad that the meaning gets lost, I'll say something, usually along the lines of asking that the post be clarified.

TX1911fan
January 14, 2009, 09:43 AM
I agree Treo. On the other hand, we are seeing, in my opinion, an increase of troll posts here. Someone coming on and in their first or second post asking how to make a straw transfer or if they can shoot the guy across the street. We have to be vigilant and consider each question, and the post count, before we answer. If someone with 1,500 posts asks about a problem neighbor, I'm inclined to help him out. If someone with 5 posts does, I'm thinking troll who just wants to show his buddies over at Democratic Underground that the crazy gun nuts told him to blow away his neighbor.

As far as spelling and grammar, the only thing that bugs me is when it is intentional. People acting like they are posting text messages, using too much slang, or intentionally mangling their punctuation (like periods but no spaces). We will ALL misspell a word now and then, it is inevitable.

craig
January 14, 2009, 09:50 AM
when i first joined i asked some noob questions.

of course i got some smart aleck remarks, but i also got some very good answers and i still do.

nobody called me a troll though.:D

Vertigo
January 14, 2009, 09:54 AM
It's pretty ironic actually, but I have already been called a troll on another blog concerning firearms, for asking a stupid question. I have since left that forum.

Because of that, I do not even dear to ask anything that seems obvious to others again. For example, I never really got the whole SA/DA functioning of a firearm. I have never been able to get this explained properly. Yes, I can search on wikipedia or something similar. And there I do understand what is meant. However, as far as I have an understanding after reading up on the interweb, when I get to certain posts I get lost again. Actually, only last week someone I knew was actually able to explain me properly.

greetz,

V.

Titan6
January 14, 2009, 10:18 AM
Feel free to PM me with your questions Vertigo.

hso
January 14, 2009, 10:52 AM
Folks here are pretty good about answering honest noob questions without flogging the noob. Some are not, but they tend to be new themselves and haven't fully grasped the culture here.

OTOH, we do see people asking questions on how to break the law or making statements about same and they get treated differently. We also see some asking questions that appear to be trolling. Some folks maintain the code here and try to correct them while others see the question as trolling and respond based on that evaluation. That's a much harder call.

If you see a troll, hit the red triangle http://thehighroad.org/images/buttons/report.gif under the potential toll's name and alert a Mod.Then respond as you see fit. We need all the help we can get and if everyone takes a moment to alert the Staff to problems we can help keep the place running smoothly.

SuperNaut
January 14, 2009, 11:10 AM
If you have read the "How to Troll" guide from way back in the usenet days you would realize that we don't have any true trolls on THR. We may have members who are; n00bs, willfully ignorant, plants, agents provocateur, thin-skinned, pot stirrers, arrogant, etc, but no trolls.

Now to be more positive, we also have; helpful, courteous, knowledgeable, loquacious, succinct, funny, interesting, and cool members as well.

IME it is astonishingly easy to determine which is which and who is who.

pith43
January 14, 2009, 11:44 AM
I agree Treo
+1 I try to approach the internet as I would in real life. I speak the truth as I see it, I respect another guys opinion if it is different (even though he is wrong;)). If I dont' know something I admit it or just stay out of the way. If things get stupid and the shouting and name calling start, I usually just bow out and let them fight it out.

Most of the times in my life that someone changed the way I think about things, came from people who dissented with me in a quit, non threatning way. I, like most people, tend to shut out people who are brash and loud in their opposition. I also know that I'm usually not going to change the mind of someone who has their's made up already, my arguments are best suited for those riding the fence.

As for spelling, I have Webster's bookmarked at the front of my favorites. I sometimes still mispell, but usually from "fat fingers" and not proof reading what I type. I also try to remember that reading type is a very analitical process. Even though we have the little smilies to use, human communication uses hundreds of non verbal methods in a ftf conversation. I tend to have a very dry humor, which can get completely lost in type.:scrutiny:

Vertigo
January 14, 2009, 11:45 AM
@Titan6

Thanks, as soon as I have another 'uncomfortable' question, I will
sure know who to ask :p

greetz and take care,

V.

ServiceSoon
January 14, 2009, 11:52 AM
Amen Treo.

shooting4life
January 14, 2009, 12:44 PM
+1 to the OP. I think this needed to be said. Turning people away from the gun culture now when they are finally joining would be just silly.

On that note, if you find someone who is asking questions about buying their first gun, offer to take them to a range. Our cause, RKBA, is won person by person and not by flashy TV commercials; everyone should keep that in mind when working with new gun owners.

edSky
January 14, 2009, 12:44 PM
I started by going to a gun shop and up front told them I had only fired .22 rifles as a kid, but wanted to explore sidearms. I owe a lot to Chuck, the man behind the counter, to take the time to give me a brief intro. It's probably a lot harder to do online because we can't see each other and don't know who is being sincere.

(Email and postings are so black and white that it is easy to have a misundertanding due to word choice, etc. I've been accused, and accused others at work, of yelling or being upset or what have you in an email when that wasn't what was meant. Face to face conversations work because we can judge a lot with loudness, speed, posture, etc.)

For example, I never really got the whole SA/DA functioning of a firearm.

Me neither, until my friend explained the way his CZ 75 and its decocking mechanism worked. It's one of those things that Wikipedia doesn't explain as well as a friend.

This is a good site for learning things.

Carlos Cabeza
January 14, 2009, 02:24 PM
Absolutely well stated Treo !

I have heard some Q's that I couldn't possibly understand where they came from. Sometimes it is difficult to answer without sounding condescending. I am as guilty as any but I try to remember I was also a "greenie" once.

Where spelling is concerned I don't point it out to anyone. On the 'net, it has nothing to do with the validity of the OP's questions or statements.

Once you understand that the web is just the "web", you sift through the chaff and find the grains of truth that make it worth it.

I know a CEO/ Owner of a multi-million dollar corporation that if it weren't for computers, you couldn't read a single word of his handwriting. He knows what "legible" means, he just can't write it legible. :D

I also like what Mr. SuperNaut added to the thead. Much truth in that post.

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