Chicago commuter train detained, passengers searched by police with auto weapons...


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wig
January 14, 2009, 10:38 AM
*** is this country coming to. I was almost on this train - but managed to catch the one just before it.

The "good citizen" who called this in claimed they overheard another passenger say that they have a gun. So f'ing what?! In IL it is perfectly legal to have a gun, in one's enclosed and zipped bag as long as it is unloaded. What's more - what if the conversation was a joke? Someone talking about a bb gun? Paint gun? Discussing his private parts? Seriously who gives a ****!?

I am furious and this is the best place to air that fury - debate away. Here is the link to the news clip. BTW: the automatic weapons part in the subject - that's sheeple for you, these cops probably carried MP5 or AR type weapons and were from the local SWAT division. For all we know they were just handguns but the people on the scene don't know what they're looking at.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/01/metra-train-halted-passengers-searched.html

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Lightninstrike
January 14, 2009, 10:40 AM
Much ado about nothing, sounds like.

rbernie
January 14, 2009, 10:40 AM
The article:

Metra train halted; passengers searched
January 14, 2009 9:39 AM

Metra BNSF Line trains are stopped in the west suburbs this morning as police armed with semi-automatic weapons evacuated and searched train passengers in Lisle, officials said.

Metra spokesman Tom Miller said the No. 1252 express train had been stopped at the Lisle station since around 8 a.m., but only said "police activity" was the reason and had no further comment.

The express train, scheduled to arrive at Chicago's Union Station at 8:34 a.m., was not scheduled to stop at the Lisle.

Police were contacted after a ticket agent called 911, saying a suspicious man was asking "unusual questions that were security based" at the Naperville Metra station, according to Cmdr. Dave Hoffman. They were unsure if the man got on the train so authorities decided to stop it near Lisle to search for the man, he said.

A source said someone reported overhearing a male passenger say he had a gun and called police from a cell phone. Hoffman could not comment on the report and Lisle police could not immediately comment.

Several hundred passengers from the emptied cars were milling about in the Lisle station this morning after authorities cleared several of the train cars.

A rider said a message over the intercom told passengers to take seat and that cars would be evacuated one at a time and riders would be searched. The train, which was stopped on the middle track of the three-track rail, had last stopped in Naperville before heading inbound toward Chicago.

The rider, who asked not to be named, said riders on his packed train were waiting to be taken off their car.

"Everybody's calling in work, sending in e-mails, stuff like that," he said.


-- Staff report



Isn't it illegal to have a weapon on a commuter train in Chicago? I would presume that it could be, since (AFAIK) the state does not support concealed carry of loaded weapons on the part of normal folk.

If it was unloaded - could you carry on the train or does the train (like the bus services) prohibit weapons of any kind as a matter of policy?

Titan6
January 14, 2009, 10:40 AM
*sigh*

Metra BNSF Line trains are stopped in the west suburbs this morning as police armed with semi-automatic weapons evacuated and searched train passengers in Lisle, officials said.

wig
January 14, 2009, 10:55 AM
Loaded - illegal. Unloaded transport - permitted by state law. There may very well be some regulation on the part of Metra (the train operator) - but it is not published nor posted. On the contrary, they encourage people to "if you see something, say something" via posters and regular annoucements.

As for "police with semi auto" - it wouldn't read the same as "police with revolvers" :D

paul
January 14, 2009, 11:14 AM
How many of the passengers declined the offer to be searched?:confused:

DRZinn
January 14, 2009, 11:42 AM
Probably none; they tend to be well-conditioned there.

Deanimator
January 14, 2009, 11:50 AM
How many of the passengers declined the offer to be searched?
Man, I probably missed a big payout by a few weeks!

After I got off Amtrak, I rode the Metra from downtown to my mother's place. As usual, I was wearing my NRA cap and reading a gun book.

"Officer, am I free to leave?"

"Officer, I do not consent to any searches."

"Officer, I will not speak further without an attorney present."

Man, if it was the Chicago PD, there's gold in them thar hills! :D

Gunfighter123
January 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
Man, I probably missed a big payout by a few weeks!

After I got off Amtrak, I rode the Metra from downtown to my mother's place. As usual, I was wearing my NRA cap and reading a gun book.

"Officer, am I free to leave?"

"Officer, I do not consent to any searches."

"Officer, I will not speak further without an attorney present."

Man, if it was the Chicago PD, there's gold in them thar hills!


EXACTLY WHAT THE RIGHT RESPONSE SHOULD BE !!!!!!!!!

ccsniper
January 14, 2009, 12:04 PM
i dont see this one sticking around too long. but i would not have consented to the search.

SuperNaut
January 14, 2009, 12:06 PM
Maybe the cops should have brought their people weapons instead of their auto weapons?



*cough*

Izaak Walton
January 14, 2009, 12:24 PM
The terror gang is winning, papers please.

subknave
January 14, 2009, 12:26 PM
Man, if it was the Chicago PD, there's gold in them thar hills!

You can collect while your in the hospital recovering from that gunshot to your back while handcuffed after being stripsearched in the snow. We are talking about the Chicago Police here.

fedlaw
January 14, 2009, 12:41 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/01/metra-train-halted-passengers-searched.html

It was a Secret Service agent.

A source credits a nearly two-hour delay of trains to some "confusion" on the part of a ticket agent along the BNSL Line.

scottgun
January 14, 2009, 12:42 PM
I don't think there are any big civil lawsuit payouts in Chicago, the local politicians aren't about to let an average citizen get away with their cash.

fedlaw
January 14, 2009, 12:45 PM
Apparently the Special (aren't they all "special") Agent asked the ticket seller if there were any metal detectors onboard since he was carrying a gun.

Doesn't that make you feel better just knowing how polite (read stupid) they really are?

Guns and more
January 14, 2009, 12:49 PM
Thank god there are no guns in Chicago!

7.62X25mm
January 14, 2009, 12:57 PM
"I got a gun . . . They were on sale at Home Depot."

http://www.theartistsdepot.com/images/Site_Ready/canvas/TR45STAPLE%20GUN.jpg

subknave
January 14, 2009, 01:05 PM
'Suspicious' rider was Secret Service agent
January 14, 2009 11:39 AM | 4 Comments

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The suspicious person who caused an unscheduled two-hour stop for a Metra train this morning and a search of its passengers was a U.S. Secret Service agent.

Metra spokeswoman Judy Pardonnet said the incident began when a plainclothes Secret Service agent asked a Naperville ticket agent whether there were metal detectors aboard the BNSF Line train and indicated he was carrying a gun.

So the ticket agent says heres your ticket have a nice trip.?! Why didn't he say, you can't have a gun on the train or refuse to give him a ticket and call security? Thats what happens when you make the police above the law and give them special privileges they cause inconvenience to everyone else.

hags
January 14, 2009, 01:13 PM
This is Illinois, suspend your common sense and please remain ignorant, everything will be alright.

Duke of Doubt
January 14, 2009, 01:15 PM
Heh-heh. Naperville, in the house!

I've been to Lisle and its train station, way back about twelve/thirteen years ago when I did some work for R.R. Donnelley, which had a technology center "corporetum" there. That train station was one boring place to spend two hours. So was R.R. Donnelley ...

RPCVYemen
January 14, 2009, 01:18 PM
Man, if it was the Chicago PD, there's gold in them thar hills!

Is there a history "big payouts" in this kind of case?

If you are frisked w/o your consent, and the court does decide in your favor, are you likely to get anything more than court costs?

I am not arguing, I just wonder what monetary damages you will be likely to claim.

I thought that most "Terry frisk" cases ended up suppressing/not suppressing evidence, not in monetary damages.

Do you have some citations where an "Terry frisk" suit produced sizable monetary damages?

Mike

expvideo
January 14, 2009, 01:25 PM
Papers, please.

cassandrasdaddy
January 14, 2009, 01:27 PM
kill joy

poker88
January 14, 2009, 01:37 PM
Metra spokeswoman Judy Pardonnet said the incident began when a plainclothes Secret Service agent asked a Naperville ticket agent whether there were metal detectors aboard the BNSF Line train and indicated he was carrying a gun.

Pardonnet said the ticket agent acted properly.

I'm sorry but I totally disagree. This ticket agent did not act properly.

The SS agent said that he was unfamiliar with procedure since he had not ridden the train before. His questions to the ticket agent appear to me to be questions related to procedure. If the ticket agent had bothered to mention the policy I would think that the SS agent would have shown ID.

RPCVYemen
January 14, 2009, 01:40 PM
Man, if it was the Chicago PD, there's gold in them thar hills!

Just for the heck of it, I did a quick search on monetary damages and Terry stops. Here's the 1st case that pops up:

Plaintiff Patricia McCardle appeals from so much of a judgment and supplemental judgment (collectively "judgment") of the United States District Court for the District of Connecticut, Alfred V. Covello, Judge , as awarded her $1.00 in nominal damages and $0.33 in attorneys' fees on her claim under 42 U.S.C. 1983 (1994) against defendant Jonathan Haddad for violation of her right under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution to be free from unreasonable searches. Judgment was entered following a jury verdict finding that McCardle's automobile had been unreasonably searched, but awarding no damages...

In the present case, though the jury found that Haddad was liable to McCardle for searching her car in violation of her Fourth Amendment rights, it awarded her no compensatory damages, apparently finding that her disillusionment did not warrant a money award. Further, the court had refused to instruct the jury that it could award McCardle punitive damages, because it concluded--properly, as discussed in Part II.C. above--that she had failed to establish the intent, malice, or recklessness required to sustain such an award. Accordingly, McCardle did not succeed in establishing her entitlement to more than nominal damages.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=969133

The appeals court upheld the whopping $1 in damages. I am guessing the the less whopping 33 cents in attorney fees comes from an agreement where the attorney would take 1/3 of the settlement. That made me laugh, probably unfairly. :)

Mike

Jeff White
January 14, 2009, 01:43 PM
This is not a Chicago problem. And I have more reason to hate Chicago then most people here. If you think the same incident wouldn't have had the same result anywhere else in this day and age you are kidding yourself. This would have happened on any commuter line in the country. The authorities aren't going to take any chances with possible terrorist events.

Deanimator
January 14, 2009, 01:44 PM
I don't think there are any big civil lawsuit payouts in Chicago, the local politicians aren't about to let an average citizen get away with their cash.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5836218

Is $12.5 million big enough?

Deanimator
January 14, 2009, 01:48 PM
Is there a history "big payouts" in this kind of case?
We were talking about the CHICAGO PD. A mere unlawful Terry frisk wouldn't be enough for them. They'd HAVE to do something malicious AND stupid, probably false arrest and excessive force in front of witnesses at a minimum. Anything else would be like expecting a great white shark to subsist on broccoli.

RPCVYemen
January 14, 2009, 01:48 PM
Is $12.5 million big enough?

I think that you have to be dead to collect that one.

Have you found any illegal "Terry stop" suits that ended up with more than $1 in damages?

In the one I cited, the appeals court even let the 33 cents in attorney fees stand - that's cold.

It may be hard to find an attorney who's willing to take on a case for those kinds of damages. :)

Mike

LKB3rd
January 14, 2009, 01:59 PM
Isn't it illegal to have a weapon on a commuter train in Chicago? I would presume that it could be, since (AFAIK) the state does not support concealed carry of loaded weapons on the part of normal folk.

If it was unloaded - could you carry on the train or does the train (like the bus services) prohibit weapons of any kind as a matter of policy?

I don't know about the legality of that, but I do know for sure that it is illegal to detain a trainful of people, and search them without cause (individually). One guy saying something doesn't make cause to detain and search an entire trainful, even in a "post 9/11 world" so long as 9/11 didn't void the bill of rights.

Deanimator
January 14, 2009, 02:38 PM
I think that you have to be dead to collect that one.
You can search the Sun-Times and Tribune websites and find all of the settlements and awards you want. Karolyna Obrycka's going buy her own village in Poland.

Of course we weren't talking about a "Terry stop", since NONE of the people were in ANY circumstances which would come within a million miles of justifying one, even badly excusing an illegal one.

RPCVYemen
January 14, 2009, 03:56 PM
You can search the Sun-Times and Tribune websites and find all of the settlements and awards you want. Karolyna Obrycka's going buy her own village in Poland.


There are some very big settlements in the paper from time to time - but none that remotely match the circumstances described in the OP.

If the police severely beat you on video while drunk or kill you, you may get a big award.

But an illegal Terry stop still looks like it might get you $1, and a big quarter, a nickle, and 3 and 1/3 pennies for your lawyer. Good luck on that one. And that's only if you win. The lawyers will be knocking down your door for that kind of money.

Of course we weren't talking about a "Terry stop", since NONE of the people were in ANY circumstances which would come within a million miles of justifying one, even badly excusing an illegal one.

Uh, if the "Terry stop" was legal, you wouldn't get anything, because it was, well ... legal.

Mike

expvideo
January 14, 2009, 04:06 PM
I don't blame the cops at all. I blame the legislators that are forcing cops to be a force against "terrorism". This is a rediculous burden to place on our police departments, especially if we expect them to do normal police work as well.

bratch
January 14, 2009, 04:12 PM
Adding this event to my ever growing list of reasons to avoid public transportation.

cassandrasdaddy
January 14, 2009, 04:51 PM
i wonder how many bags of weed got tossed or flushed. sometimes searches have funny consequences when we had vips at a hotel i worked at the secret service would screen staff through a metal detector. they found lots of beer in purses

Duke of Doubt
January 14, 2009, 05:08 PM
I had a client show up for court on the one and only occasion I know of when a certain distant rural courthouse happened to have the metal detectors up and manned. The fool had a folding knife on him -- which was the least of his problems, as they were searching bags and he was crazy enough to be holding dope (probably) in court. He denied it, to me and to everyone else, but it isn't everyone who panics and takes off running when he sees the searchers. Heck, around here lots of people get their knives confiscated (and usually returned later) at the courthouse door.

Then there was the woman at the airport whose (comically enormous) marital aid started buzzing and shaking inside her bag while she stood in line at the security checkpoint.

Erik
January 14, 2009, 05:53 PM
So a USSS Special Agent, unfamiliar with and trying to comply with railway proceedures, volunteered who he was and that he was armed, asked how to proceed, and when ultimately the railway personnel he encountered determined that there was a proceedural infraction the local police was contacted, who in turn detained the train and its passengers until things where sorted out? Do I have that correct?

It could have been sorted out much better all around, regardless of which version of events are taken as acurate.

Which why folks allowed to carry everywhere should do so and worry about security measures as they are encountered.

Nathanael_Greene
January 14, 2009, 06:00 PM
To me, the saddest part is that someone overheard (only partially, I'm sure; I used to ride those trains daily) a mention of a gun and couldn't wait to rat the guy out.

When we did we become so eager to sell one another out?

makarovnik
January 15, 2009, 03:31 AM
I wonder what the law is about being searched, when and where and under what circumstances you have to comply.

I know those AR-15's are scary but I would tend to decline especially if I wasn't positively ID'd by another passenger or if I didn't match the description of the "suspect".

Searching everyone? No frick'n way. That's very uncool!

mike101
January 15, 2009, 04:00 AM
I didn't think this could have been Chicago. When you call 911 in Chicago, nobody answers the phone.

DocBoCook
January 15, 2009, 04:03 AM
No, this particular searching everyone is by definition, unnecessary. But they wanna sweep and see how much dope or whatever they can. I swear, I heard more wrongful death judgements in Chicago than drug busts while I lived north of there. And I remember USSS being allowed to carry on my Navy base (which we aren't even allowed to do) while they attended an EMT course I taught.:banghead:

jimsmith80
January 15, 2009, 09:54 AM
Where was that train on the way to Dachu? (sorry for spelling)
That was one stupid Secret Service Agent they should have just gotten on and IF there was a metal deteor then show the badge, thats why they give you a badge. Dumb Bastard.
I am not an Obama fan, but I hope to god for the sake of the country that, that nit-wit is not on the presidential detail. I mean really, hey what's this badge thing for, Wait, wait don't shoot officer!!!! That agent should be re-assianed to gaurd the baby seals against global warming in alaska.

Flyboy
January 15, 2009, 10:04 AM
I thought that most "Terry frisk" cases ended up suppressing/not suppressing evidence, not in monetary damages.

Do you have some citations where an "Terry frisk" suit produced sizable monetary damages?
There is precedent to suggest that SCOTUS wants to see more monetary damages and less suppression of evidence.

In Hudson v. Michigan, 547 U. S. 586 (2006), Scalia wrote that the "increasing professionalism" (his words, not mine) and the increase in the number of public-interest law firms and civil rights lawyers means that it is more appropriate to challenge unlawful searches in a civil suit than in an exclusionary hearing.

Scalia further said that "[w]e cannot assume that exclusion in this context is necessary deterrence simply because we found that it was necessary deterrence in different contexts and long ago. That would be forcing the public today to pay for the sins and inadequacies of a legal regime that existed almost half a century ago," and "[t]he cost of entering this lottery [of claiming evidence was gained unlawfully] would be small, but the jackpot enormous: suppression of all evidence, amounting in many cases to a get-out-of-jail-free card."

In other words, Scalia--along with four others--doesn't see a need to give the State a credible check on its power. Raise your hands if you're surprised.

Rifleman 173
January 15, 2009, 10:25 AM
This story has GOT to be fiction. Chicago is the most anti-gun bastion in the world. King Richard Daley doesn't allow any peasant, serfs and peons to own, use, carry or possess any guns anywhere near Chicago.

mbt2001
January 15, 2009, 11:51 AM
What was the cost of that little event? $10,000? Seems like the need some MBA's over at the police desk...

Top_Notch
January 15, 2009, 02:03 PM
Heh-heh. Naperville, in the house!

I've been to Lisle and its train station, way back about twelve/thirteen years ago when I did some work for R.R. Donnelley, which had a technology center "corporetum" there. That train station was one boring place to spend two hours. So was R.R. Donnelley ...

Not everyone from IL is so brainwashed, but be careful as to not spook the sheep by speaking and/or acting out. I also work for RR Donnelley and couldn't agree more about the boring part (I could go on). We hang no gun signs on the entrance doors and the sheeple feel safer.

Flyboy
January 15, 2009, 02:47 PM
As a followup to my previous post, the Supreme Court just ruled that evidence gained from an illegal search that results from "negligence ... rather than systematic error or reckless disregard of constitutional requirements" no longer justifies suppression.

In other words, if the cops can plausibly claim incompetence, their antics can be used against you.

wep45
January 15, 2009, 02:51 PM
guns?.........what guns............just as long as you dont mess with my cheetos:cool:

cane
January 16, 2009, 09:57 AM
Did you notice they were looking for a "man" with a gun, but searched everyone.

rscalzo
January 16, 2009, 11:03 AM
Doesn't anyone talk to each other in the state? He identified himself as LE and was allowed to board. Then the agent gets nervous and calls in LE. They have the id and the agent identified himself. I don't see a big problem.

I use NJ Transit all the time armed and never have a problem. The conductors have no problem with it. Now maybe if I was sitting there reading the "Idiots Guide To Operating a Commuter Train", they would be concerned.

ilbob
January 18, 2009, 12:46 AM
In IL it is perfectly legal to have a gun, in one's enclosed and zipped bag as long as it is unloaded.

Rather than argue about what is legal or not I will just quote the statute and let you come to your own conclusion. METRA is certainly supported with public funds.


(720 ILCS 5/21‑6) (from Ch. 38, par. 21‑6)
Sec. 21‑6. Unauthorized Possession or Storage of Weapons.
(a) Whoever possesses or stores any weapon enumerated in Section 33A‑1 in any building or on land supported in whole or in part with public funds or in any building on such land without prior written permission from the chief security officer for such land or building commits a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) The chief security officer must grant any reasonable request for permission under paragraph (a).

SCKimberFan
January 18, 2009, 07:20 AM
the local politicians aren't about to let an average citizen get away with their cash.

Nope, up there it only flows one way.

S&Wfan
January 18, 2009, 10:28 AM
Reading the published reports . . .

It looks to me like the ticket selling agent was one of those who got fired at the McDonalds drive through for screwing up too many orders due to poor listening skills.

She didn't LISTEN when the SS agent identified himself and stated the purpose of his questions.

Typical . . . and lots of folks suffer from STEW-PID people like this.


Brace for more stew-pid people employed by government, the pres-elect has promised to create three million new jobs, with "80% of them being in the private sector."

ARE YOU LISTENING to Mr. O's speech and thinking about what number the other 20% of million is?

20 % of 3,000,000 = 600,000 new government jobs for the ones who can't make it at the McDonalds drive throughs!:eek:

Change you can believe in . . . Chicago style!

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