Getting really tired and worn out.....


September 27, 2003, 12:39 PM
By having to constantly defend my right to keep and bear arms. I'm so tired and emotionally drained by having to defend this right. I keep arguing with some of my friends and I'm not sure I am getting through. My room-mate for example feels that only certain handguns and certain long arms are ok but no full autos for the citizens. His girlfriend (God bless her soul) argues that that makes no sense since that would be a double standard. He likes Bowling for Columbine, she picked it up right away as being a biased flick. Another friend who is in med school says that handguns statistically are involved in most suicides. I say, well if you got rid of handguns, then knives and poisons in suicides would increase. He days that since cars are licensed, guns should be too. I say that since I live in the PRNJ, it essentially is and besides, driving is a priviledge, not a right. I really need a friendly shoulder to rest on. Thanks for listening.

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Mark Tyson
September 27, 2003, 12:50 PM
Sounds like the usual responses from people who are either have only superficial knowledge of/interest in firearms policy or have a different philosophy about government and society. Don't force your opinions down their throats.

Baba Louie
September 27, 2003, 01:51 PM
There's a whole lot of ignorant people in the world Zeke and emotions run deep on this subject.

You can play it many ways... besides butting your head aginst a brick wall.

I like the agreeing with them POV and then picking holes in your own theory, never attacking their POV, mind you, finalizing by stating how even tho' you've proved yourself wrong time and again, you just think that a small elderly woman SHOULD be vulnerable against a rapist, etc. She deserves it.

Suicides? Japan. Pills.

History? The Founding fathers were wrong. They should have bent over and taken it like a good British subject. Should have let the American
Natives kill them all and/or stayed in merry olde England where they could only practice the religion allowed by the gov't.

Full auto? Only recorded murder w/ FA was by a policeman and thats a good thing (If only LEO should be armed). The victim deserved it.

Things like that.

They might catch onto the use of ironic sarcasm, but its doubtful. Sorta like Shakespeare's "But, I come to bury Ceasar, not to praise him" speech.

Close with something like, "Only an Idiot or a criminal would want to be able to defend themselves. I must be idiotic."

Then walk away smiling.


September 27, 2003, 01:52 PM
It's gotta be tough living in enemy controlled areas. You remind me of the kids from 'Red Dawn'.

"John has a long mustache, John has a long Mustache"

"The chair is against the wall, The chair is against the wall"

September 27, 2003, 01:52 PM
Anything worth while is tough. Defending your right to keep & bear arms is worth while & will make victory that much sweeter....

September 27, 2003, 02:11 PM
Find a way to swap the roommate for his girlfriend ;)

September 27, 2003, 02:12 PM
As of now, full auto's are illegal w/o MGL from my understanding. If some pistols are not alright but others are, is that not saying that some religions--Christianity, Islam, --are not OK. Each has extremists--Branch Davidians are "Christians". Hezbollah et al. are Islamic.
That argument was something that was somewhat present in this are of the nation when Muzzle loading seasons were starting--is an in-line acceptable? No? then a percussion cap or a Minie ball might not be primitive enough. See where concessions on weapon types can go. A Constitutional Right is absolute. If your roommate acknowledges the 2nd A the argument is one about the definition of the meaning of rights vs. privileges. If he does not accept the 2nd, you need to convince of this. There are even many Liberal(uppercase L) who have beliefs about the 2nd favorable to gunowners.

Non carborundum illegitami.

Good luck and hold firm.

Standing Wolf
September 27, 2003, 07:05 PM
I keep arguing with some of my friends and I'm not sure I am getting through.

I try once or twice, then abandon the effort. I discovered long ago it doesn't make sense to try to reason with people who already have their so-called "minds" made up and don't want to be confused by mere facts. Some people are anti-Second Amendment bigots, and that seems to be all there is to it.

I direct my efforts toward people who are capable of reasoning, and have opened a few eyes over the years and introduced several people to shooting. I've never changed a sincere anti-Second Amendment bigot's mind, and doubt I ever will.

September 27, 2003, 08:34 PM
He days that since cars are licensed, guns should be too.

I am so tired of hearing this.

Even the Violence Policy Center recognizes the shortcomings of handgun registration.

I have yet to hear a valid, legitimate reason for registration. I suspect that is because there is none.

Mark Tyson
September 27, 2003, 08:43 PM
There's a perfectly valid reason for registration. When they want to confiscate them, they'll know who's got them.

another okie
September 27, 2003, 09:39 PM
Cars are not licensed. Drivers are.
Anyone can buy any kind of car, with no background check.
They can take that car home and do anything they want to on their own property without ever registering the car with the government, including driving it without a license. Anyone can sell any car they own to anyone else. No kind of car or feature is restricted to law enforcement.

To be honest, though, pointing out logical flaws in people's arguments like this is a waste of time. Most gun opponents want to be safe, see the world as dangerous, and think that if guns were eliminated they would be safer. That's the belief you have to attack. All their other arguments are just covers for this one.

So say: If all the guns in the world were eliminated, would there be peace? No. The biggest and strongest guys would do whatever they wanted, just as they did before firearms were invented.

September 27, 2003, 09:54 PM
I think SWAT magazine had a really good article on the 'guns should be treated like cars' argument.

I'll find out which issue it the meantime, a lot of people end up using the same questions and arguments and you end up building up a bag of comebacks over time.

Standing Wolf
September 27, 2003, 09:56 PM
The difference between registering cars and registering firearms is that nobody's trying to ban and confiscate cars.

September 27, 2003, 10:20 PM
Although we like to think that rational debate can change people's opinions, it doesn't often work, because it it depends on people being flexible and mature enough to examine and re-evaluate their own beliefs. I remember reading something once that people tend to agree with people they like, not with the argument itself.
I suggest that you do your bit in a practical rather than theoretical way by introducing a non-shooter to shooting because, in the end, it's numbers (votes and money) that count.

September 28, 2003, 12:22 PM
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Some people take longer to reach, some people won't be reached at all.

I've normally tried to frame the discussions more as a "what good could possibly come from banning them", with comparisons to other things that have been banned but still kept going on. Prohibition is a good one for that. The one's that can be reached will have the wheels start turning when they hear a logical explanation. The one's that aren't reached, I distance myself from. I don't like a lot of stress in my life and people like that add to it.

September 28, 2003, 12:45 PM
Quit Arguing with Antis! Stop it now. Never ever do it again.

Instead, any time you feel the urge to argue with an Anti, spend that time relaoding.

Instead of arguing with an Anti, spend that time in dry firing practice in your home.

Instead of arguing with an Anti, spend time shopping for a new handgun.

Or, the ultimate answer is, instead of arguing with an Anti, invite that Anti to go to the range with you instead.

You cannot dissuade people from clinging to irrational, illogical ideas.

C'mon, there are millions of folks out there convinced, absolutely convinced, I tell you, that Elvis is still alive.

So if arguing makes you ill, STOP IT!

Don't argue with Antis, invite them to the range with you instead.


September 28, 2003, 01:50 PM
Automobiles are registered (licensed or tagged) so the government can collect taxes off them in order to help pay for the roads.

People are licensed to drive so they may operate a vehicle in close proximity to others on public roads.

Does having a drivers license keep drunks off the road? No. There are many repeat offenders who continue to violate the law, documented all over hellingone, and the worst they might get is if they squash a 5 year old child while doing it. Some jail time, but when they get out, they'll likely be able to get a license to drive again, and allowed to purchase and operate an automobile. They will also be able to get drunk again. And again.

What happens if a person gets themselves drunk and shoots their firearm down the street, killing a 5 year old? Will the punishment be the same? And I don't think they are going to pass a NICS check when they get out of prison. They are branded for life.

Is licensing gun owners going to allow us to operate our firearms anywhere in public we wish? No.

Will the money collected pay for setting up gun ranges where we can operate our firearms? No.

September 28, 2003, 02:12 PM
After reading replies, I realize that antis are not usually going to listen to the arguments I gave. Maybe some one with one foot planted firmly on either side of the fence. Not a dedicated anti. They have given the same disproven arguments since the mid-1980's(remember the "Gunshine State?"

Sorry for the bad advice.

September 28, 2003, 08:12 PM

you sound young (med school, roommates, and girlfriends intead of ex-wives, kids, and
girlfriends). younger minds tend to be more 'liberal' as a general rule. i suspect as you
get older, you'll find yourself hanging out with more people who live in this world as opposed
to OZ.

keep up the fight. soon you will be very deft at defending your position (if you're not
there already). we all fight this - some you win, most you don't.


September 28, 2003, 11:39 PM
I with Devonai, stop wasting time with him. Take her to the range and then out to dinner. :D

September 29, 2003, 12:28 AM

The Five Minute Handbook ( - just takes 5 minutes. ;) Read it once quickly, take a deep breath & read it again. File it away & take it out once in awhile.

Take a deep breath & reconcile what it is you want to accomplish. Chaninging anothers' thought process - this is what you're trying to do - make them think logically rather than emotionally, after all.

It is very, very tough enough to make a dent in our own "pro-side" than to convert those who already know "the one true way."

Wait a minute. They are they same - only from a different perspective.

Face it.

We've got very "pro-gunners" who would give up their lives to support the NRA/Project Exile/"just enforce the laws currently on the books" .... yada, although these are patently unconstitutional. They'll buy into Laughtenberg/Brady checks/madatory training/the whole NICS-thing/magazine restrictions .... they are are merely fighting for lighter chains, never knowing in an atempt to reason away that "the bad guys" need be curtailed & restricted.

The bad guys never are.

Oops! Bad guys aren't into to chains, but we will gladly place them on ourselves in the attempt.

Wanna get [B]really frustrated? Try it in the political arena & with those of your own "like-minded." Then you'll get to see the "true-believers." Not.

Frankly, I've given it up & will just live my life. Here 'n there, you'll get to make a dent, but never count on it & NEVER, ever consider your own worth on who you can convince, or get (them) a clue.

Life's too short for that.

September 29, 2003, 10:26 AM
You can lead people to logic, but you cannot make 'em think. :(

I was never against guns as a younger man, but as people age they seem to become more conservative in their philosophies. And that is a good thing. :) In the past year I have gotten my CLP and seven guns. :D

Give your friends time to grow and mature.

Oleg Volk
September 29, 2003, 01:59 PM
His girlfriend (God bless her soul)

Sounds like she needs to date you instead!

Seriously, don't get depressed or angry by stupid people. Save the anger for those enemies who can actually do you real and immediate harm.

Andrew Rothman
September 29, 2003, 02:17 PM
"Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates you and annoys the pig." - Mark Twain

The only exception is my (anti) wife. It's a tough fight, but one worth winning.

September 29, 2003, 05:44 PM
All of the above is good advice. There has only been one anti whom I spent a lot of time trying to convert, and that's only because he's my best friend. I've now brought him around on the gun issue, but he's ultra-liberal on just about every other issue.

It only took fifteen years. :rolleyes:

Dave R
September 29, 2003, 06:47 PM
I love talking about RKBA with anti's. I find it energizing. The discussion may cover violence statistics, Constitution, intent of the framers, or the legal history or gun bans in the US. But I always try to steer it back to a priciple.

Do you believe that an individual, if attacked by a criminal intent on doing that person harm, has the right to defend themselves?

If so, what tools does the person have the right to use? Hands? Stick? Knife? Firearm? Its interesting to see where others draw that line.

September 30, 2003, 12:40 AM
I know what you mean. It can be overwhelming, but dont stress it. Im learning to "turn the other cheek" when a possible debate presents itself. And I feel good about it.

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