Residences in 2 states.


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steverjo
January 16, 2009, 01:21 AM
My primary residence is in California, but I also have a house in Florida and a Florida ID card. (also a Florida non resident CCW). I have some firearms in CA and Some in FL. I can buy guns in FL that are not on the "CA approved" list.

Is it legal for me to buy a gun in FL that is not on the CA Approved list and then transport it to CA by car? There would be no change or transfer of title.

Likewise, what about magazines with greater than 10 round capacity?

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owlhoot
January 16, 2009, 02:22 AM
You are a California resident. Your vehicle is registered in California. You vote in California. Owning property in another state doesn't change that.

I seriously doubt that you could buy a gun in Florida other than from an individual who is not a dealer. If you can't vote in Florida, you are just another visitor. However, there would be no problem with buying magazines.

steverjo
January 16, 2009, 02:41 AM
According to the FFL's in Florida, if i have a Florida ID with a Florida address, they can sell me a gun.

Audrey
January 16, 2009, 04:01 AM
The internet is not the place for legal advice. Consult an expert.

Dark_Harvest
January 16, 2009, 04:08 AM
you said this pretty important thing:

"and then transport it to CA by car?"




How exactly would buying something that's illegal in your state somewhere else, and then transporting it to your state make it not illegal????? :confused:


that doesn't make sense.


And yes, ONE of those two states has to be your primary state of residence. Sounds to me like it's CA.

divemedic
January 16, 2009, 07:18 AM
You are a California resident. Your vehicle is registered in California. You vote in California. Owning property in another state doesn't change that.

I seriously doubt that you could buy a gun in Florida other than from an individual who is not a dealer. If you can't vote in Florida, you are just another visitor. However, there would be no problem with buying magazines.


And yes, ONE of those two states has to be your primary state of residence. Sounds to me like it's CA.

You both are incorrect.

If you own a house in Florida, during the time that you are staying in that house, you are a resident of the Florida. If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

27 CFR 478.11 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr478.11.pdf) Scrolll down to page 8, left hand column and see the definition of "State of residence."

The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in State X.
A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

The example in the actual text of the law states that the person who stays in his second home on the weekends is still considered to be a resident during those periods when he resides in that home. the CFR says that if you MAINTAIN a home in a state, you are considered to be a resident of that state during the time that you are staying in the home that you maintain. Since we here in Florida have a large snowbird population, that covers them quite well. (27CFR478.11)

The question would be what does it mean to maintain a home? The CFR gives some guidance on that. It specifically says that a person who owns property (like a hunting cabin) is not maintaining a home. Likewise, renting a timeshare would not be maintaining a home. The CFR does say that a person who has a home that he only stays in on the weekends and the summer would be a resident during the time he is in that vacation home, therefore a person in the situation described by the OP would not be breaking the law by purchasing a handgun or a long gun while he is here, whether that is face to face, or through a dealer, as the regulation clearly considers him to be a resident.

The problem comes when you go to prove your residency to the dealer. The regulation states that the proof of residency must be a government issued identification that has your name, DOB, and address on it, or any combination of government issued documents that state those items of information. In the OP's case, a DL from his other state and a tax notice from the tax assessor's office may be sufficient, but a state ID or CCw would be easiest and present the least hassle. Since you are not required to present such ID in a FTF transaction, you could do that legally without even having an ID, as long as you maintain a home in the state.

However, a state ID (or CCW) with a Florida address on it does not make you a resident, as you can obtain those without proving that you are a resident. Residency is the key.

Under the aforementioned law, the original poster is a resident during the times in which he is staying in his Florida home and can thus purchase weapons here. Whether or not CA will allow you to import your guns is a different matter which I cannot help you with.

Oro
January 16, 2009, 09:03 AM
Divemedic has laboriously helped you with the law, you can of course by guns, long guns or handguns, in FL while you are there. The Form 4473 wants to see your government issued ID for the state you are purchasing in; voting and other civic actions have nothing to do with it. Legally having a residence there is what matters, and being able to demonstrate that with a state ID card or driver's license is the easy way to achieve that.

The next question you want to phrase is: "how do I legally import this gun, brand (x) and model (y), into CA, that I already own."

Not being a CA resident, I can't answer that knowledgeably. Maybe either make a post asking that question, or call your local Sheriff's office and ask what to do about bringing guns you own elsewhere into the state.

SaxonPig
January 16, 2009, 11:29 AM
The ATF recognizes dual residency. It's legal to buy and sell guns in both states. I have checked into this with the ATF because I am in this same situation. I spend most of the year in one state and part of the year in another where I maintain legal residency, have a permanent address, and hold a state-issued ID card. The ATF told me I am considered a resident of both states and can buy and sell guns in both (and I have done so with the FFLs agreeing with the ATF that the transactions are legal).

As far as bringing handguns into CA that are not approved, look at the exact wording of the law. If it says they may not be imported for sale then you are OK as long as you don't sell them in CA. I believe this is the case. If for your personal use, I think this would be legal as long as you registered them with the state as per CA law. I know that CA allows unapproved handguns to be gifted to CA residents from family members out of state so apparently CA doesn't totally prohibit such guns from coming into the state.

People moving to the state can also bring unapproved guns with them but they must register handguns with the state DoJ when they arrive. I suspect that you could do the same thing. There is a self-registration form on the DoJ web site for just this purpose.

This does not apply to guns banned outright, like "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines." These would be illegal to bring into the state for any reason. We are only talking about handguns that are not on the approved list.

NavyLCDR
January 16, 2009, 12:41 PM
It appears as if you are a personal handgun importer. Each handgun that you purchase in FL that you bring to CA must be registered with the CA DOJ. It does not matter if the handgun is on the CA approved list or not. I think the fee is $12 or something like that. Hi-cap magazines are still illegal for you to bring into CA.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12000.php
(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
(1) He or she is not a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(2) He or she is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(3) He or she is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) He or she is the owner of a handgun.
(5) He or she acquired that handgun outside of California.
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.
(7) He or she intends to possess that handgun within this state on or after January 1, 1998.
(8) The handgun was not delivered to him or her by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 who delivered that firearm following the procedures set forth in Section 12071 and subdivision (c) of Section 12072.
(9) He or she, while a resident of this state, had not previously reported his or her ownership of that handgun to the Department of Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included information concerning him or her and a description of the firearm.
(10) The handgun is not a firearm that is prohibited by subdivision (a) of Section 12020.
(11) The handgun is not an assault weapon, as defined in Section 12276 or 12276.1.
(12) The handgun is not a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.

The only snag that I can see is the word "moves" in (6). Because it does not say "moved", that would tend to indicate that the provision for personal importation of handguns only applies upon the initial move into California and to handguns that were owned at the time of that initial move. And, also, have you lived in CA since prior to Jan 1, 1998?

I would ask a lawyer.

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