What is more mechanically reliable in the cold, auto or revolver?

[MikePGS]

Not trying to make any sort of war or anything like that. Just curious as to whether or not one action has a distinct and hopefully demonstrable advantage over the other for near/sub zero (degrees i mean, not freezing point).

[Big Bill]

Firearms and cold weather considerations

By Massad Ayoob

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob79.html

[CoRoMo]

What is more mechanically reliable...

No matter how that sentence ends, I think the answer is always revolver.

[22lr]

Ive had auto rifles freeze on me. I can only assume the same thing could happen with a auto. De oiling the gun helps a lot though.

[rcmodel]

I think it doesn't make one whit of difference if both are lubed properly, with the proper lube.

The 1911 fought *WWII & *Korea in below zero temperatures, and it worked just fine in the artic.
(*Two of the coldest wars fought in modern history!)

The Russians used semi-autos exclusively in the coldest regions of the world for half a century, and still are.

I would expect the same from any military semi-auto.

But I would expect the same from any modern revolver too.

Unless either gun was gunked up by frozen low-grade gease or oil that shouldn't have been used in the first place.

rc

[rich636]

I think it doesn't make one whit of difference if both are lubed properly, with the proper lube.


+1 I think that's the answer. If it is cold enough that one fails you've probably already frozen to death.

[GregGry]

I had my CZ sp01, and 97b jam at the range due to the cold. I had them in the trunk of my car for 14 hours during sub zero temps. When I got to the range with a friend of mine, both pistols jammed (Aka failure to feed, and or failure to go completely into battery. The slides were very "sluggish" when racked. I believe (although I am not 100% sure) I was using gunslick oil for lube, which is a thicker oil. I have switched to CLP, and I will be going to the outdoor range tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[rcmodel]

Again, too much of the wrong oil or grease.

If you expect sub-zero conditions, use light oil, or dry-lube very sparingly.

Remington Rem-Oil is good.
Remington DriLube is good.

Neither will congeal or thicken at below zero temperatures

rc

[Macmac]

I think it doesn't make one whit of difference if both are lubed properly, with the proper lube.


I'll buy that..

[Sato Ord]

I carry my pistol under my coat, I can't imagine it freezing there. I keep it clean and lightly oiled.

Personally, if I were somewhere it got cold enough to be an issue with your side arm, I'd move.

My last winter up north was my last winter up north!

[ronto]

A revolver with NO LUBE.

[jaydubya]

"My last winter up north was my last winter up north!"

Mine was in Missoula, Montana, 1938. I thawed out in Panama for three years. Didn't like that either, so now I live in the Southwest corner of the United States.

I always am impressed with Massad's articles, and mystified by the reaction to some to them. This article should not generate much heat. Heh heh.

Cordially, Jack

[MikePGS]

Thanks for the Ayoob link. Greg, please let us know how it goes :D

[Macmac]

Well the cold is a relitive thing. A theoretical bad guy is going to be in the same cold you are. He will be limited in what he can do as you are.

If it is -40 below he can't keep his hand out of a glove any longer than you can, and he can't. The cold is the main equalizer here, and if you don't know how to deal in -40, nothing is going to save you, but then so long as the BG is the same he is as doomed.

You take -40 and add a little breeze and no hands are going to work for very long, and the longer you hold steel in them the faster the hands are going to freeze..

Re loading a wheel gun is going to be a bigger problem, and no little thin driving gloves are going to amount to squat.

I am not aware of many guns made for real cold. A few hand guns have bigger trigger guards, and I only am ware of two long guns, and both are obsolete. The 30-40 kraig is one and the most modern of the two I know of and the last is the Nor West Gun which is a flintlock. That flintlock was made for the realy serious cold and in it's day was the winter gun of all winter guns, but alas all good things come to an end.

[f4t9r]

revolver would be my pick. The only problem I had with an auto is I had one with a safety that froze on me.

[Duke of Doubt]

The Russians worked long and hard to make an autoloading handgun that could take cold weather the way their Nagant revolver could. The result was the Tokarev, based on the Browning. Russian cavalry preferred the Nagant. So did a lot of other Russians. As one Russian cavalryman put it, 'if anything ever went wrong, you could fix it with a mallet.'

That said, the Finns and the Swedes were satisfied with their Lahti autoloaders, which externally resembled the Luger but which they designed inside and out expressly for cold weather operation. They even had big fingerguards.

[jad0110]

I think it doesn't make one whit of difference if both are lubed properly, with the proper lube.

My thoughts too, if properly lubricated. A revolver may be a bit more forgiving of poor lubrication in cold conditions than an auto though.

[Drail]

I have read stories that Korean war vets told of their weapons freezing to the point they were inoperable. Jeff Cooper wrote about some of them. If you have to operate in low temperature extremes I strongly recommend you completely disassemble and strip ALL lubricants from it and run it dry until the temps come back up. I have seen enough mechanisms freeze solid I will not believe any manufacturer's claim for low temperature performance. No lube - no freeze with any type weapon.

[LightningJoe]

When I was 18 years old, I thought that if you went outside when it was below 32 degrees and breathed the air, you would die.


We don't know much about cold weather in Texas.


But we don't need to.

[MP3Mogul]

Revolver wins that argument

[rudolf]

In the real cold you will have thick gloves that will keep you from getting your finger into the triggerguard on many guns. If you plan to take off the glove, better have a Glock or some other plastic grip or your hand might just freeze stuck to the metal.

[wanderinwalker]

I like the Glocks in cold weather myself, as they A) Have trigger guards big enough for at least a pair of fleece gloves and B) The trigger won't get bound up by said gloves. They're simple enough with gloves too: No small controls to hit. Just trigger and magazine release; sling-shot the slide to reload.

I've fired my DA revolver in the cold with gloves, and found if the gloves are a little loose, better expect them to get caught and bind up the trigger. I've also found the neat little Kel-Tec PF-9 to be no-go with gloves on.

Also, as mentioned, I can load a bunch of semi-auto mags in the warmth of car or home, go shoot, and either have shot enough or can go back to the car to warm up and reload. I leave the SA revolvers home when it's below freezing, as loading and unloading is too much of PITA, and the swing-out cylinder of a DA is only moderately easier when it's cold enough.

Of course, when it is below 0-F, I stay away from the range. Above that and I'm game 95% of the time though! :D

[JImbothefiveth]

However, if you have to fire more than one shot, you may find that a thickly-gloved index finger blocks the trigger’s return, converting your six-shooter to a single-shot at what could be the worst possible time. The sharp edge at the top of most double action revolver triggers can also snag on glove material as the trigger begins to return forward under spring pressure to re-set.
I don't think this can happen with a semi-auto, correct?

[ArmedBear]

The 1911 fought *WWII & *Korea in below zero temperatures, and it worked just fine in the artic.


Yeah, but not the 1911 that most people on this board might have.

Those GI guns seemed loose for a reason: reliability.

I'll agree re Rem Oil and the like, but still, I'd guess that a gun that has some clearance between all the moving parts will be more tolerant of frost, sticky lube, etc. than a match gun would be.

Note the Luger, a beautiful piece of machinery, valued by collectors, but a military failure. The P38 was less elegant, but worked a lot better. Mine still does, well enough that I trust it for HD.

[James T Thomas]

I don't know a thing about them; perhaps I should do some research, but doesn't the Lahti semi auto have a good cold weather reputation?

Considering the previous post about the Luger, P-08, and the similar appearance to the Lahti; then I wonder what design features it has that distinguish it.

[rcmodel]

Luger, P-08, and the similar appearance to the Lahti;They have nothing in common at all except the general out-line or shape.

The P-08 uses a Toggle-locked short recoil action.

The Lahti uses a locked bolt, but also incorporated a "bolt accelerator" to improve cold weather functioning.

rc

[tango2echo]

Fewer moving parts. Looser tolerances. Wheelgun wins hands down.

T2E

[rcmodel]

Then why is every major and most every minor military power in the whole world using semi-autos instead of revolvers?

If the revolver was at all superior in cold weather, or the dirt, that's what at least some of them would still use!

But they don't!

rc

[Duke of Doubt]

Militaries prefer semi-autos to revolvers for ammunition capacity, speed of reloading, and to some extent, lower cost of manufacture and comparative ease of cleaning and repair.

Cold weather operation has nothing to do with that choice.

[rcmodel]

I know, but if they didn't work in cold weather, they wouldn't / couldn't use them!

rc

[jmr40]

Revolver lovers refuse to accept it but when the 1911 was adopted nearly 100 years ago it was proven that autos held up better in harsh conditions. If anything modern autos have proven to be more dependable in harsh conditions.

Revolvers just have too many small delicate parts and too many places that require tight tolerances. A tiny bit of sand, grime, ice etc. will lock up a revolver if it gets in the right place.

The Ruger GP-100 is the one revolver that may be the exception to the rule.

[Duke of Doubt]

It's the classic revolver "all or nothing" issue. It's almost impossible for anything to go wrong, but under terrible conditions, it's just possible something will go wrong. And if it does, usually that's it -- your revolver is now a small (but good) club, because fixing most revolvers will require at least a half hour, some precision tools and a clean working area. Semis, on the other hand, malfunction all the time, but clearing a minor jam is no big deal. Even major problems often can be fixed in minutes, not hours.

I prefer revolvers for home defense, but semi-autos for carry, for those reasons among others.

[Mike the Wolf]

A 1911 isn't going to be affected by cold unless the manufacturer makes the tolerances on the slide rails and bushing far too tight. It uses direct blowback instead of a gas system. Most similar designs shouldn't have a problem either.

[Dienekes]

It's been a while, but as a kid I shot an old DCM (GI issue) 1911A1 with ball ammo in North Dakota winters. Don't remember any problems. (I was also younger, tougher, and stupider then.)

I am mostly a revolver person these days. Went out with my old work gun, a Ruger Security Six some years back in minus 30F. That worked fine, too.

More to the point, after functionality, is gun handling and ergonomics. EVERYTHING is a hell of a lot harder at those temps, believe me. "Fine motor skills" are nonexistent because your body doesn't believe what you're putting it though and does not want to work any more than your vehicle does. So it's down to large muscle inputs and as much control as you can muster under the circumstances. I have found mechanics' gloves to work pretty well for some protection, as long as you have actually tried them and can manipulate the gun safely and adequately. With a good DA revolver you are a lot less likely to horse off a round prematurely and place the one you do want to fire where it needs to go. In any case, DA is good insurance.

So it's more than just a gun/lubrication issue.

[makarovnik]

Revolver.

I have read stories about The Korean War where it was so cold the actions on the Garands would freeze up. They were told to work the action about every 10 minutes or more. If they really got stuck they had to pee on them to unfreeze them. Yuck.

Talk about a rust problem.

[barnetmill]

A 1911 isn't going to be affected by cold unless the manufacturer makes the tolerances on the slide rails and bushing far too tight. It uses direct blowback instead of a gas system. Most similar designs shouldn't have a problem either.

model 1911 is a short recoil system.

One problem with the initial question is the word cold is relative. Are you talking about 32 F or -20 F. There is big difference. Most automatic weapons get their energy to function from the firing of the cartridge. At very low temperatures burning of the powder could become weaker and might affect functioning. I have never seen such studies, but I am sure that they exist. The fact is at very low temperatures even a military bolt action can fail to fire if incorrectly lubricated. I assume the normal grease used in revolvers mechanisms would also "freeze up" at 20 below.

[Bezoar]

well if you want the ultimate in relaiability in cold weather, id have to say a revolver. however the Model P in original 1873 design will be the best. especially if you use a graphite powder or teflon in it.
That or a remington bp revovlerwith smokeless cartridges and graphite or teflon.

[Boats]

I shot both a 1911A1 and a Beretta PX-4 9mm in true -26 conditions in North Dakota last month. No malfs, even after leaving the guns out in the cold to equalize them to the air. Lithium based gun grease is evidently okay under such conditions, ordnance steel didn't become brittle enough to fail, the NP3 on my Springer didn't peel off, and the Italian polymer didn't crack.

I've fired a Ruger GP-100 and a Marlin 1894C in such weather before too, again without incident.

The ammo is self contained and self oxidizing. I am sure that it would have to get unbearably cold and borderline lethal for basic human functioning well before that chemical reaction was affected negatively by the cold.

[Kind of Blued]

I'd go with a revolver. Don't even have to take your hand out of your coat pocket.

:neener:

[Drail]

I think the lube that is used has a great deal more to do with an action freezing up than the type of action or how tightly it is fitted together. If an action is so tightly fitted that it will freeze up from a change in temperature then it would have problems in above freezing temps as well. Some lubes (but not all) turn to glue when frozen. In sub freezing temps run your gun with no lube and don't worrry about it.

[CoRoMo]

The semi-auto is a reliable design, and a lot of today's stuff is simply, perfect, for lack of a better word.

However, I believe revolvers reach a higher level of reliability than many semis ever could.

[jjohnson]

Yep, it's the reverse this time.

It depends - which auto, which revolver? We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the successful military autos work, even in cold. A short list of those include the 1911, Luger, P38, Lahti, TT33, Radom and others. It seems certain revolvers work well, too - The dirt-ugly Webley, Colt 1917, Peacemaker, and a few others.

And yes, military outfits like FIREPOWER, so choosing the auto doesn't automatically (haha) mean it's more reliable in cold weather. It's easy to get snow and ice in your mags.... but then, you can do the same with your loose revolver ammo.

No clear winner here.:scrutiny:

[moooose102]

i think that a revovlver is always going to be more reliable than an auto loader. cold, hot, or anywhere in between. but it is like anything else in life, there are tradeoffs. a revovlver usually has less capacity, increased weight, less concealable. etc. but, with a revolver, you also get more power. just depends on which trade offs fit your situation.

[babarracing]

I once had serious slide jams in 14 degree F. weather. The fault was mine. I had lubed the slide with Lubriplate. Hell I figured if it was good enuff for my race engine it was good enuff for this task. Wrong the Lubriplate grease jelled at this Temp. This was back in the late 80's. My Bad!

[jon_in_wv]

One more reason to use Mobile 1 on your firearms. Besides the fact it lubricates well and costs a fraction of other gun oils it also does not thicken in cold temperatures. I used it in my cars when I lived in Minnesota and the car never cranked over slow even at 30 below 0 or colder.

[slzy]

somebody said autos will stand more abuse,revolvers more neglect.

[Isher]

The old Chevy/Ford pickuptruck question.

Pick your poison.

If you train well, and maintain your gear well,

Ain't gonna be a problem, either way.

So I say "Distinction without a difference."

isher

[mrt949]

Revolver .always works.

[TAB]

there are two ways I can see them failing:

1 the lube is too cold
2 Ice on/in the gun.


Other then those two, I can't see any hand gun faling do to the cold. Atleast in temps that people would be using a hand gun in.

[GRIZ22]

I think it doesn't make one whit of difference if both are lubed properly, with the proper lube.


This is true.

Based on my own observations a dirty revolver is more reliable in the cold than many semi-autos. I used to see agents come to the range with S&W autos when they were issued. Temperature in the teens (remember wind chill doesn't affect inanimate objects). Those with filthy guns had problems FTF, FTE, stovepipes etc., etc. Those that were clean had no problems. Revolvers always went bang. Glocks ran well in the cold clean or dirty.

ps Not enough of other types of autos to make a valid judgement. Those that did carry 1911s had no problems but they were shooters who kept their guns clean.