Is the Gov. keeping tabs on your marksmanship skills


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duckfoot
September 27, 2003, 10:17 PM
Got into a “what if” conversation today and a fellow coworker (government type) was of the opinion (hint hint rub rub) that the government was keeping tabs on people with military training/civilian marksmanship knowledge of making/using, weapons/explosives and are in a file pile on some homeland security desk. Who would be in something like that? All the master - high power shooters listed by the NRA/CMP because they have the skills to put a shot where they want to. That kind of got me wondering because I use to shoot high power and was trained in demo by the Marine Corps.

What says the board, about our marksmanship skills making the “the man” nervous. Yeah or nay?

(not that I'm worried or anything, anyone can pull a Houdini if they know how):uhoh:

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Mark Tyson
September 27, 2003, 10:24 PM
I don't know about marksmanship, but I know guys who get military EOD training stay onto a government list.

olyAR73
September 27, 2003, 10:28 PM
Allegedly they keep tabs on certain military sniper types long after they leave the service. At least that's what Ive heard. I wouldnt put it past the Gov. to try.

444
September 27, 2003, 10:35 PM
I had it proven to me a couple weeks ago that people who attend shooting schools are on a list.

Trebor
September 28, 2003, 12:24 AM
"I had it proven to me a couple weeks ago that people who attend shooting schools are on a list."

What's the proof?

444
September 28, 2003, 12:28 AM
I am not going to offer you any proof. You will have to take my word for it. I realize that is a weak reply, but I agreed not to say anything about it. This is not tin foil hat stuff even though it sounds like it.

goon
September 28, 2003, 12:28 AM
:D :D :D
Well if there are, it is a gross waste of taxpayer resources.
I can just see them sitting around the conference table now...
"Well, Mr. (your name) is still a lousy shot. One down, 79,602,111 to go..."
Seriously, if they are doing that, someone needs to go to prison.
I am no more a threat to national security than a troop of girl scouts.

444
September 28, 2003, 12:34 AM
"I am no more a threat to national security than a troop of girl scouts."

Nor am I. But after some of the stuff we heard about during the so called "DC Sniper" case, do you honestly think that no one is looking at these things ? We KNOW they looked in to who owned .223 caliber rifles. We know that they confiscated .223 rifles wholesale for ballistic analysis.
It stands to reason that they also looked into who owned a .223 rifle and was also a good shot. Who attended shooting skuls, who competed with .223 rifles, who lived in that area that owned .223 rifles that was a former or current military or law enforcement sniper....................................

Maybe I am paranoid but that all seems to logically go together.

How easy would this be to find out ? I know I paid for my shooting classes with a credit card. I booked a hotel room while I was there and paid with a credit card. I purchased items in the pro shop using a credit card. I bought gas driving there on a credit card. I made phone calls from there on my cell phone.

petro
September 28, 2003, 12:37 AM
I know I am on that list. While in college, earning my CJ degree, I took a course in Arson, Bomb, and Ballistics. We got down to the nitty-gritty in that course. We were all told in advance that our participation, because of the info we got, would be noted somewhere with the proper authorities. Not that they would do anything now of course, but just for future reference.

petro

HeavyHaul
September 28, 2003, 01:06 AM
If you were in the military, and ever attended an official EOD, blaster, or demolitions course, you are in a database. This was done in response to the OKC bombing. Just in case it ever happens again. My name is in that database. :( And may soon have another entry, if I'm accepted for the SeaBee blasting course.

Bill

Trebor
September 28, 2003, 01:06 AM
It should be common knowledge that the government will access various "decentralized" gun-related lists held by various agencies, FFL dealers or private businesses when they feel it will help them in an investigation. They obtain this material either with the consent of the list holder or through the use of Search Warrants, Court Orders or Supeanas, as appropriate.

Some recent examples of this type of investigative data-collecting include the gathering of info from FFL record holders to find owners of 5.56 rifles in the D.C. sniper case, the copying down of info from range sign-in log books in that same case and the seizure of sales records from FAC Inc. to determine who purchased a 9mm Makarov replacement barrel so those buyers could be contacted (or investigated)as part of the investigation into the murder of a U.S. Attorney.

The point is that if an investigation turns up a need to pursue records of any kind, the government will usually seize those records and work the list as they deem appropriate.

That is different from the idea that there is a giant "master list" of shooting school attendees, or NRA members, or Glock owners (or whatever) that the government will sift through in an early attempt to find a suspect.

I don't believe the government keeps a "master list" of law-abiding gun owners who have attended shooting schools, or are NRA members, or who own more than "X" number of firearms, subscribe to a certain magazine, or whatever. I really have no personal knowledge to base this belief on, other than the sheer logistical nightmare creating and maintaining such a list would create.

Of course, the government may start a file on someone if their name turns up in the course of any investigation and once that happens, I'm sure that this kind of information would be maintained in the file. I just don't think there's a "master list" they sort through at the start.

Remember, anytime you interact with a person or organization who would have a reason to keep records about you, those records could be subject to government seizure at the government's determination of need. This includes schools (shooting or otherwise) you've attended, businesses you've purchased from, organizational membership lists or even what books you've checked out of the library. In effect, the government doesn't really need to keep any sort of "master list" to keep track of people because if they need that info they'll just get the records from all the places you've done business with where you gave the info up in order to transact the business.

From what I understand, the only type of people who the government would routinely maintain a file on are those who have been involved in an investigation (in almost any aspect), or who have had their records entered into the system as a member of the military or any other person who would have had to have a background check performed or been given a security clearance.

444
September 28, 2003, 01:28 AM
The problem occurs when your name DOES come up in the course of an investigation. Again, I guess I am paranoid, but it seems like this would be an easy thing to have happen. A crime occurs in the area where you live involving a shooting. They go to the local gun dealer and obtain a list of who purchased guns in that caliber. Your name is on that list. They dig deeper and find out you are an NRA member, you are a member of the local shooting club, you are an avid competitor in the shooting sports, you have attended shooting classes, you have written your elected officals on gun legislation etc. Obviously you are a "gun nut". Then it just so happens you own a car of the same color identified by witnesses; some highly unique color like black or white or blue. This can quickly snowball out of control. In today's society you can be made to look very bad through circumstantial evidence. If you didn't do it, odds are you will eventually be cleared, but not before your life is basically ruined.

Balog
September 28, 2003, 01:29 AM
Can you say Richard Jewell?:uhoh:

smitty
September 28, 2003, 01:58 AM
jewell, there was a snowball headed for:evil:

Zundfolge
September 28, 2003, 03:03 AM
What 444 says makes sense to me.

Just ask all the Makarov owners who bought Federal .380 barrels.

tetleyb
September 28, 2003, 04:09 AM
I will also back up 444 assertations. For the same reasons as 444, I will be vague, however there is PROOF some of the hijackers of the 9/11 tragedy, attempted (key word here, ATTEMPTED) to take an edged weapons course, from a high profile trainer. This trainer, at the time, was teaching at a very high profile training center. One which has alot of military contracts.

You can bet your bottom dollar, if you attend certain training, your name and personal information will be, hmmmmmmm, shall we say disclosed?

Furthermore, I also know, as a police officer, several gang members have enrolled in shooting courses, in order to train other members of their respective gang.

standingbear
September 28, 2003, 10:17 AM
and maybe theyll give me a real job....we are all on the fun list you know.:D

TallPine
September 28, 2003, 10:58 AM
They go to the local gun dealer and obtain a list of who purchased
guns in that caliber.
That wouldn't help much in Montana - they might as well just use the phone book instead .... :D

"Okay, Schwartz, you call the A's through the D's, Turner, you call the E's through the H's .......... "

DorGunR
September 28, 2003, 11:14 AM
Posted by Tallpine:
That wouldn't help much in Montana - they might as well just use the phone book instead ....

"Okay, Schwartz, you call the A's through the D's, Turner, you call the E's through the H's .......... "
..............................................................................................
Having spent some time in Montana, I believe there is more truth here than one might think.:D

jar
September 28, 2003, 01:08 PM
Back to the question "Is the government keeping track of..."

If so, I really don't have to worry. :rolleyes:

Despite all the training and practice I've had over the years, it hasn't helped my marksmanship any more than all those golf lessons lowered my score.:banghead:

Brian Dale
September 28, 2003, 03:10 PM
Um, goon, that would be me. :p

Let ‘em. They'll build these lists of shooters and firearms owners, secretly or openly. Our job is to get more of America on that list than off it (hey, gotta set goals).

What I hope for is that when some young eager-beaver excitedly shows his report with the gigantic spreadsheet to his supervisors, some revolver-totin’ Old-fart GS15 can smack ‘im on the back of the head and say, “Look, you whelp! See here: you show that Happy Bob is still a lousy shot, but he sure is burning up a lot of ammo. That’s what we WANT; there’s still hope for the guy. Now come back when you’ve taught some more new shooters; remember that I’m on your promotion board.”

I can live as if I expect that to be possible, or I can live in ways that I might speculate would minimize my chances of being on lists. Frankly, life’s too short to follow the latter course. Fire and prosecute those who abuse their authority (and it will be abused; refer to all of history for examples). We're doing what is right and proper for human beings.

SodaPop
September 28, 2003, 06:32 PM
I know enough politicians and LEOs in Pennsylvania to over throw the entire Federal government.

I'm not worried about anything.;)

Zip06
September 28, 2003, 07:11 PM
After identifying you as a highly probable suspect through library records, credit card purchases, gun club memberships, magazine subscriptions, telephone records, political contributions and letters to politicians and a careful analysis of all email you have ever made and calls to Miss Cleo they have discovered you have purchased 27 firearms in the past three years. They come to visit you looking for that 9mmLargo. You know, the one that was similar to the one used by some Basque terrorists trying to establish their own country in Kansas. You sold it because you were tired of not hitting anything you were aiming at. Think they believe you after they search your house in a no knock raid and discover your 8000 rounds of ammo?

Steve Smith
September 29, 2003, 11:21 AM
It would not surprise me at all. I, and most of the people I associate with are Master Highpower shooters, and in pretty good shape too.

Sam Adams
September 29, 2003, 12:58 PM
We're all on some list or other. Hell, maybe there's even a list for those who discuss lists?

FWIW, the more people that are on lists as gun owners or enthusiasts, the LESS likely the gov't will be to try any kind of confiscation. If they know that 500,000 highly skilled shooters who own accurate bolt-action rifles are out there, that there are 15 million people with "assault weapons," etc., then there will be some practical person who will tell a President or other high official that they'd be nuts to start anything with such a group. And, after all, isn't deterrence the purpose of the 2nd Amendment?

Let them compile their lists - we can't stop it anyway. The bigger the lists grow, the better off the country is.

Correia
September 29, 2003, 02:28 PM
I figure I'm on the "To Do" list.


:)


444 is right. There are lists. About a third of the Utah National Guard got flagged as security risks during the preliminary security investigation before the Olympics. Do not say anything online, or in a private e-mail that you wouldn't say in front of an FBI agent.

And I agree with Sam Adams.

Baba Louie
September 29, 2003, 02:48 PM
Is the Gov. keeping tabs on your marksmanship skills

Q: Does the government keep tabs on hunting licenses?
A: Of course. Who grants you that license?
Q: How many hunters in America?
A: A lot. Not as many now as in days gone by, but still, A Lot.
Q: How many hunters can hit that at which they aim?
A: Most, if not all. If they can't, they keep practicing till they can.

Whereas I've met several hunters who could give a hang about black rifles with pistol grips or semi-automatic 9mm or .45 caliber handguns, once they actually see the writing on the wall and others Oxen gored/geese cooked, I think they'd fall in line. (I could be wrong)

Prediction: All the doom sayers, keep on preaching; all the lobbyists, keep on talking to and swaying elected officials. Firearms and ammunition manufacturers, keep churning out new designs... we'll probably keep on buying them, unless you fall in step with some government official who would do us harm.

Q: How many billions of dollars a year does the hunting/shooting community contribute to our economy?
A: I don't know an exact amount (if anyone has a clue here, chime in), but I know its financial impact could not be taken up by, say, Little League, Bowling or the anti-gun crowd.

Ya gotta be on somebodies list.

According to Louis L'Amor, you're only as strong as your enemy requires you to be.
Enough said.

Do it for your... Children ;)

Adios

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