[Hostile Amish]

I've noticed that many people don't like the 9mm, for reasons ranging from unreliability to low stopping power. Why all the hatred? 9mm has what a good pistol cartridge should have. It has low recoil (for better controllability), it is a NATO round (which means it will almost never be in short supply), and it offers high capacity in a small size. Additionally, it is cheaper than almost any other alternatives (which means it is easier on your wallet for practice). Personally, I can shoot several 9mm's in the time it takes to shoot a few .45's.

Also, 9mm guns tend to be much lighter than .45 counterparts, examples being Glock and 1911 pistols. This makes them easier and more comfortable to carry.

As for usefulness in a combat situation, the 9mm is much easier to shoot while under pressure than a larger .40 or .45. The speed and accuracy at which you can shoot a 9mm easily makes up for the (small) ft-lbs energy difference.

If there are any critical problems with 9mm, please tell me. I just want to know what's the deal with people disliking 9mm.

[alistaire]

9mm hardball is famous for lack of stopping power.

[rbernie]

Seems like a lot of shooters want to believe in the 'magic bullet' theory, whereby if you shoot 'the magic bullets' then The Bad Guys will become immediately incapacitated and cease all hostilities. Since bigger == better, then the Magic Bullets must be the ones that are bigger.

[rklessdriver]

Not invented here.

[Gtone]

Some folks don't like it because it doesn't "stop" a threat as quickly. Personally, I can shoot my 9mm Glock's better than my .45s. But this is also due to practice. I've had my 9mms a lot longer. I practice with my .45s, and I'm comfortable with them. But shot for shot, speed and accuracy, I am better with the 9s.

But boy...firing my 1911 .45 one handed makes me feel GOOD.

[crebralfix]

Most people know as much about terminal ballistics as they do about quantum physics. That is, they rely on rumor, mythology, word of mouth, anecdotal evidence, magazine and book articles, and price.

9mm is just fine for fighting with quality defensive ammunition. I agree that 9mm 115 grain FMJ ammuntion is not very good. However, we're talking about using good expanding ammunition here.

Besides, pistols terminal ballistics suck. We have them because they're portable, not because they have rifle ballistics.

[Pilot]

I am a huge 9MM fan. I also like other calibers like the .45, .380, .38 Spl, etc and carry many of these. 9MM is a very effecient, somewhat economical round that is accurate, allows hi capacity and with modern JHP ammo is fine fo self defense. "Hating" it is akin to people who are reletively ignorant about calibers and firearms in general.

[thirdeagle]

"Also, 9mm guns tend to be much lighter than .45 counterparts, examples being Glock and 1911 pistols. This makes them easier and more comfortable to carry.

As for usefulness in a combat situation, the 9mm is much easier to shoot while under pressure than a larger .40 or .45. The speed and accuracy at which you can shoot a 9mm easily makes up for the (small) ft-lbs energy difference."

While some 9mms are diminutive there are plenty that have as much heft as some .40s and .45s. Weight of a firearm does influence carryability but it is not the only factor. Edges, angles, length, width, carry options, etc also influence what I decide carry. My Glock 29 carries much easier than my CZ P01 or CZ 2075 ever did (both 9mms, BTW).

As for usefulness in "combat situations" all I can add is that you should carry your maximum effective caliber - the largest caliber that you shoot well from a platform that fits you. No, I'm not talking about your 10.5" SW 500; I'm talking about firearms built for what some refer to as "social" situations. For many that may be the 9mm from a Glock subcompact (FWIW, the ergos of the G26 were terrible for me but the G27 was darn-near perfect). For others, like me, that may be the 10mm, .45, .38, .357, etc from a 4" all-steel revolver or a full size 1911. I know you selected the .40 and .45 as "alternative" calibers to the 9mm since they are popular semi-auto chamberings, but in reality there are many more caliber options as well as numerous good platforms.

So, why do I carry a 10mm and .38/.357? Because I can. Because I shoot my Glock and snubbies very well. Because the 10mm and .357 are, IMO, superior to the 9mm. For that matter, I'd take my .38 642 over a Glock 26 any day. And there's more. . .

[FullEffect1911]

Because having that big .45 gives me more peace of mind. And that means I am not second guessing my equipment choices and can focus more on the important things.

Do what works for you is usually my suggestion. Just about all handgun calibers are really under powered for the task at hand.

[Sato Ord]

First: there's a really big difference between hate, and preference.

It has low recoil (for better controllability), it is a NATO round (which means it will almost never be in short supply), and it offers high capacity in a small size. Additionally, it is cheaper than almost any other alternatives (which means it is easier on your wallet for practice). Personally, I can shoot several 9mm's in the time it takes to shoot a few .45's.

Also, 9mm guns tend to be much lighter than .45 counterparts, examples being Glock and 1911 pistols. This makes them easier and more comfortable to carry.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The 1911 is all metal while the Glock is mostly much lighter polymer. A metal 9mm like my Walther weighs more than my .40 cal. So by your logic I can say that my .40 is the better carry weapon.

The problem I have with new Glocks has nothing to do with weight, and everything to do with ergonomics. The one-size-fits-none grip of the Glock simply doesn't feel right in my hand. The finger groves molded into the polymer are made for someone about half my size, and I just can't see paying that much for a pistol that doesn't feel good to shoot, and I have no time or patience for reworking the thing. That's why I bought my S&W.

Not to turn this into an I hate Glock thread, I think they make fine weapons and I would buy a used first generation Glock if I could find one.

As for availability of ammo, I've never had a problem finding 9mm, .45 acp, or .40 S&W. I don't believe in SHTF, day-after nonsense, so I don't think I'll be reduced to scavenging any time soon, but if that happened who do think would have the ammo for your 9mm? That's right, you'd have to take it away from a bunch of cranky military types and police officers. Personally, I'd rather take my S&W .40 and hide in a cave somewhere until it's safe to come out.

As for usefulness in a combat situation, the 9mm is much easier to shoot while under pressure than a larger .40 or .45. The speed and accuracy at which you can shoot a 9mm easily makes up for the (small) ft-lbs energy difference.

And, you've tested this how?

I've been in combat with nothing but a pistol in my hand, and I can tell you that I want all of the power I can get, especially if the other guy has a long gun, or a MG.

As for speed and accuracy, that's simply a matter of practice. I'll put my 15 round, or as some like to call it, my 14 +1, S&W against a 9mm any day. I shoot fast, and I get consistent tight groups at 25 - 50 yards. I did the same when I carried a 1911 (old school army). Actually, the same goes for any pistol I've carried including my .38spl, 45LC and .44mag revolvers. You put the time in at the range and pay attention to what you're doing and you'll shoot just fine with anything you decide to carry.

If there are any critical problems with 9mm, please tell me. I just want to know what's the deal with people disliking 9mm.

Nope, no critical problems. Like I said, it's a matter of preference, not hatred. I like the 9mm just fine. I have a really nice antique 9mm that I still take to the range, and if a good deal on a modern 9mm came along I would take it. I might even carry it occasionally.

The 9mm has plenty of penetrating power. In fact, in most ballistics tests I've seen it penetrates better then either .45 or .40. However, the heavier, bigger rounds of the .45 and .40, in my opinion - your mileage may vary - simply have a little more knock down power, and are less likely to travel through the body of your target and injure an innocent party down the street.

I've seen what both the 9mm and .45 acp can do to a man at relatively close range, and based on personal experience I chose the bigger caliber.

[HoosierQ]

You want my opinion...it is the whole "gangsta" culture where firearms are part of the whole "bling"...and in rap/urban/gangsta culture the 9mm is not cool. It is all about the .40...now why that is, I don't know.

I have noticed this in a number of situations where the whole "hat on backwards" crowd (in my direct observations, young men of European descent with baggy pants and giant gold chains) at gun shops spouting off "I ain't liking them 9's". These clowns have no idea what they really know or don't know about one caliber or another.

There are, of course, other valid comments above about ball ammo and whatnot. With good, modern JHP, the 9mm is an outstanding SD/HD cartridge for citizens not needing to penetrate body armour...of course a .45 is not going to do that either.

People "hate" out of ignorance. People have educated preferences about caliber because of facts.

[model of 1905]

I dont hate 9mm, I wont own it but by the same token, I wouldnt like to be shot by it either.

[bonedust]

and in rap/urban/gangsta culture the 9mm is not cool. It is all about the .40...now why that is, I don't know.

Notorious BIG and Tupac were both supposedly killed with a 40cal.

[Walkalong]

I don't hate it, but I do much prefer the .45. I like shooting 9MM more and more these days, as it is much cheaper.

[Davionmaximus]

I like the 9mm. When I carry mine I never feel underarmed. I prefer the report and "push" a .45 gives me at the range. I can shoot the .45 as accurate and fast as the 9mm. So why bother with it?
The 9mm is a great load for people who are recoil sensitive. In my opinion (which counts for nothing) none of the top four most popular handgun loads are "one shot stoppers"
Practice-practice-practice....

[12Bravo20]

The myth/complaints about the 9mm not having stopping power stems from the military having to use FMJ bullets. With the proper bullet, the 9mm will work just fine. Yes I preferred the 1911 over the M9 while in the Army but stopping power wasn't really a factor at the time for me (reliability was).

[Mello]

I agree with Sato Ord about the use of the word hate.

There are many people who prefer to use bigger bullets and/or more power to get a critical job done as quickly as possible. That job in defensive handgun use is to stop a deadly threat.

First, any defensive handgun round is underpowered and that is why it is taught to shoot twice to the center of mass with a major caliber (45acp, 10mm, 40S&W for example) and three times with a minor caliber (9mm, 38spl for example).

Many times a shooter and the bullet perform in the best possible way and the threat is not instantly stopped. Some heart-shot people continue to fight for many seconds more. Think how many aimed shots can be fired in only 5 seconds. This is why training to use cover is important.

If you are not considering stopping a deadly threat then the considerations change.

[eldon519]

Hollow-points haven't always worked as advertised. We are fortunate to have excellent defensive ammunition that expands pretty reliably today, but it has not always been the case. A lot of older hollow-point designs often failed to expand or worse, over-expanded and limited penetration. These facts are what partially fuel the mentality that "a 9mm may not expand, but a .45 won't get any smaller". With the ammunition available today, I do not personally believe that this argument holds as much water.

A lot of people also point to the Miami Shootout in which one of the armed felons was shot through the side with the bullet coming to rest either touching or just short of his heart (can't recall). The bullet was a 9mm Winchester 115-grain Silvertip. I believe this event is partially what led to the FBI penetration standards of 12" in ballistic gel. I think too much weight is put on the fact that it was a 9mm round that failed to make it to the heart. The 115-grain weight is the lightest of the three most common 9mm weights (115, 124, 147) and lighter bullets tend to penetrate less. If you look at the sources below and compare the performance of the 9mm 115-grain Win Silvertip to the .45 185-grain Win Silvertip (note: also the lightest of the three most common .45 weights, 185, 200, 230), it does not appear that the situation would have been much different with the analogous .45 load. I do believe it does go to show that it is worth researching and carefully selecting your carry ammunition based on the wealth of test results available in this day and age.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

[FoMoGo]

It is this for me...
While a 9mm may expand in a goblin... the .45 will not be shrinking...
I want big holes and lots of damage.
I reload, the cost of .45 over 9mm really doesnt matter to me.
I shoot what I am most comfortable with and what I feel will do the most damage.
I will be getting a 10mm later also.


Jim

[jc650]

Nine is fine by me. My G26 is easy to shoot and cheaper to practice with and I dont reload. Im even comfortable with my .38 special.

[greenr18]

i trust 9mm, especially with jacketed hollow points

[gmhamilton3]

“As for usefulness in "combat situations" all I can add is that you should carry a firearm in a chambering that you shoot well.” Thirdeagle is absolutely right.

The .45 is deeply rooted in our history as a nation; it is American as apple pie. If one simply compares the ballistics of the .45 vs. the 9 mm, the .45 wins hands down. Having carried a 1911A1 during one tour back in 1969, I was confident that should the need arise it was more than adequate for the purpose intended, a highly lethal short range defensive weapon.

However, having talked on many occasions with a gentleman who served in the Rhodesian army during the “bush war” I have a deep respect for the 9 mm. To those who are unfamiliar with the history of this conflict it was a war between the white minority Rhodesian government and black nationalists supported by the USSR, East Germany, Cuba and China based in neighboring Mozambique and Zambia. It was a guerilla war that lasted over 15 years with numerous cross border raids by both sides. The Rhodesians used 5 man teams composed of 2 whites and 3 blacks with the 2 whites being the shooters. During raids on guerilla training camps the shooters would first move quickly though the camps and shoot everything that moved, his preferred weapons were 9 mm Browning Hi Power pistol. His job was to put rounds on target as quickly and accurately as possible with the intent to incapacitate individuals. The 3 black team members would follow up and terminate the wounded, usually with FAL’s and 12 ga. shotguns. War is hell.

The 9mm was repeatedly used effectively in close combat because of its offensive capability; size, weight, speed, accuracy, ease and capacity. Gotta respect his choice.

[Boats]

I'm a .45ACP and .357 Magnum shooter by preference, but I have four 9mms that I would trust my life to, just not with FMJ.

FMJ in all duty calibers is rather lame medicine. If I have some 124-147 gr JHPs for the 9mm, I am fine with it because as Josef Stalin was reported to have remarked, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

The 9mm is adequate in JHP trim, but I want that double stacked magazine of them.:D

[ArmedBear]

The speed and accuracy at which you can shoot a 9mm easily makes up for the (small) ft-lbs energy difference.

Energy is overrated when you're trying to stop an attack. A nice, slow blow to your head with a baseball bat will be much worse than a very fast blow with a pencil. The difference between .45 and 9mm is not as extreme, but the principle remains.

WRT guns and ease of shooting, an XD in .45 feels a LOT like one in 9mm. You're just "limited" to only 13+1 rounds.

I'd use a good 9mm or a .45, but 230 grains is a lot heavier than 115. Energy overstates the importance of velocity. Momentum shows one reason why you'd want a big bullet, but it doesn't help sell the newest fast, small wonder-round, so you won't see it on the box or the ballistics chart.

[Duke of Doubt]

Amish, the OP, made a bunch of claims in support of the 9mm which, when summarized, basically boil down to "it's small and cheap." That isn't an argument for effectiveness, it's an argument for economy. By that logic, carry a Walther P22.

It was only last year that I bought my first 9mm, and that was with some reluctance. It isn't exactly my favorite round. But I consider it adequate (barely) in stopping power, or I wouldn't carry it in my Beretta 92FS.

The availability of cheap ammunition is not much of a selling point. Yes, you can practice more with it, but shooting a lot of rounds rapid fire all day at the rate where ammunition expense becomes a decisive factor does not lead to improved target scores or defensive response, in my estimate.

Basically, it's a round that happens to be popular for reasons of historical accident, and a lot of very fine pistols are chambered in it. As a defensive carry cartridge, it is adequate but not superb.

[jackdanson]

It's killed lots of folks.

[Pulse]

i may be wrong, by i allways believed that more people where killed by the tiny and absymal 9mm then any other handgun round?

in most of the rest of the world, the 9mm is considered the standard in handgun ammo.

[ArmedBear]

Any caliber will kill someone, and has.

The question is, will it save you from them, if they are attacking you?

[Hoppy590]

i just dont like the guns that shoot it mostly.

the frames to alot of major 9mm are WAY to big. and the guns that go with a smaller frame are still too fat.

[stalkingbear]

I see absolutely no reason to handicap myself with an 9mm instead of the time proven man stopping abilities of a bigger bullet. People don't think about a bigger bullet making a bigger hole in the target without needing to expand whatsoever, whereas the 9mm MAY expand close to diameter after it expands-which is extremely iffy in cases of the hollow point filling up with clothing material. And NOBODY in their right mind would even think about using 9mm FMJ bullets for defense. The 9mm fans try to dismiss the actual facts compiled from shootouts and knockdown power of the .45.:banghead: People often confuse killing power with stopping power. An ingrown toenail or piece of glass/rusty nail MAY eventually be fatal if left untouched. The WHOLE idea of self defense is to be able to stop the attacker from all further acts of aggression. Stopping power comes into play when you want the time elapsed from striking attacker to the time he is totally unable to perform ANY more aggression. To say .45 is too hard to control is hogwash! ANYBODY that has enough training to achieve muscle memory can easily shoot .45s. I have to wonder about the "macho" men:rolleyes: that are scared of .45acp recoil, when my wife and kids-including my babygirl LOVES to shoot my .45s. It's also nonsense about the larger guns being heavier. Look at the actual difference in length is between the rounds.

Sure the 9mm has it's place-but IMO that place is for plinking or backup to the PRIMARY defense weapon ONLY. It's ridiculous to deliberately hinder yourself with an under powered weapon. We ALL know that just because NATO adopts something, that DON'T make it ideal, or even sufficient. MY ideal defense weapon will ALWAYS be +P loads shot from an .45acp. It's record is unquestionable.

[Duke of Doubt]

You know, stalkingbear, a smaller round like the .45ACP really doesn't compare in stopping power to a more adequate round like the .500 S&W Magnum. Why limit yourself to the smaller round when the bigger round is available?

[ArmedBear]

Why limit yourself to the smaller round when the bigger round is available?

Uh, because the .45ACP is one of the best compromises?

A .500 isn't a great carry gun, it's nearly unshootable, and provides little opportunity for followup shots.

The right .45 is no harder to shoot than a 9mm, but as I said, 230 grains is a lot heavier than 115, and from what I've seen on game, I'll take heavy over light.

[stalkingbear]

I HAVE been drooling over Guncrafter Industries .50 1911 but just don't have the ability to pay for 1. How did you know?????

[MostlyHarmless]

I don't "hate" the 9mm and doubt if there are many people who do.

On the other hand, I do believe that the 9mm is not as good as some of the other choices available today in guns and ammunition. I find that my defensive needs are better served by the .40 S&W. Pistols are available in .40 S&W in roughly comparable size and weight to most 9mm pistols, and the ballistics are better. More recoil but that doesn't bother me. Ammunition availability is very good.

I also find the .380 pocket pistols to serve a useful role due to their small size.

That leaves 9mm as a compromise with neither the concealability of the .380 or the power of the .40. True, there are individual guns worth considering (Rohrbaugh), but the number of really great 9mm platforms not also available in .40 is small.

[SuperNaut]

I don't hate the 9mm, I'm mostly indifferent. That is because all the same technological advances that have been applied to the 9mm round/platform have also been applied to the .45. Therefore if the 9mm round offers no significant ballistic advantage over the .45, and the platform offers no significant size advantage over the .45, there is no compelling reason for adoption IMHO.

[Duke of Doubt]

The smaller frame .45s are getting my interest, but their capacity still stinks.

[nwilliams]

Why do people hate the 9mm?

I love the 9mm, it's always been one of my favorite calibers!:)

[JImbothefiveth]

Hate the 9mm? No, but there are better choices out there, if you can shoot them well, and they don't give you a flinch.

But if I could have only one semi-auto, it would be a 9mm, since it's cheap to shoot for a, usually has adequate stopping power, and I don't need one for bear defense. But still, .45 ACP and .40 S&W are better for self-defense, if you can shoot them well.

[Davionmaximus]

Two guns virtually identical in size Glock19 and Springfield XD 45 compact
Glock 9mm 15+1 147gr = 2352
XD .45 13+1 230gr = 3220

In guns of the same size why sell yourself short (by 900gr)??

[stogiegila]

I like the 9mm. I actually shoot my Glock G30 .45 cal better than any other gun, but I prefer to carry a 9mm due to capacity. I find the recoil of the .45 is actually less offensive than the 9mm. But carrying 3-6 more rounds is more comforting to me.

The round I don't like is the .40. Too snappy for my liking. Everyone is different.

[NELSONs02]

the 9mm has its niche. Would i want it for combat or self defense? NO.

Here in wisconsin I think the 9mm is pretty popular among shooters. All we do with pistols here is punch holes in paper...... unless your hunting, and for that I don't think the 9mm would work. This is why i own two!

[bikerdoc]

I have 3 of them, have no doubt they will get the job, have 3 357's
and 2 45's love em all. And the only time I ever fired at someone it was with the wifes 380. One shot stop, go figure.
Shot placement is everything.

[gmhamilton3]

Wild Bill Hickok, considered the wests best gun fighter used 9mm cap/ball pistols. He said one should aim for a man's "guts"--it might not kill him, but it would put him out of action.
He seemed to do OK although under gunned, well that is until he was interesting enough killed by a .45.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Underpowered?? The 9mm has twice the muzzle energy as the .38 Special---that nobody seems to have problem carrying.

Love the 9mm---all my handguns are either 9mm or .22 LR.

[Duke of Doubt]

I don't have a problem with the .38 Special either, but it's easier and more reliable to shoot expanding rounds from a .38 revolver than from a 9mm autoloader. I know, I know, I'm going to have upteen posters telling me how they've fired fifty thousand rounds of 9mm hollowpoints through their HiPoint and it never malfunctioned. Whatever; I shoot only ball from my 92FS. That's why stopping power is marginal. Also, you can shoot pretty powerful +P loads in a modern revolver without the malfunctions that can occur with uploaded ammunition in an autoloader. So the muzzle energy can be a closer proposition, and the stopping power can vary depending on bullet and load.

[Ky Larry]

A lot of people have the attitude "I'm smarter than you so I'm right and if you disagree with me then you're stupid." Besides, why should you care what anyone else thinks of the 9mm. If you choose to carry it to defend yourself and family, it's your a**, not theirs. Opinions are like a**holes. Everybody has one. Do your homework and choose what works for you.

[Travis Bickle]

Who knows? Most 9mm loads are, admittedly, mediocre man stoppers, but .38 special is even worse, and I don't see it singled out for nearly as much opprobrium as the 9mm.

[NavyGuy]

Energy (ft.-lbs.) Velocity (ft./sec.)
Caliber Bullet Muzzle 50 yds. 100 yds. Muzzle 50 yds. 100 yds.
.25 Auto Pistol 50 MC 64 45 48 760 707 659
.32 Auto 71 MC 129 115 97 905 855 810
.357 Magnum 125 JSP 583 427 330 1450 1240 1090
9mm Luger 115 MC 329 277 242 1135 1041 973
.380 Auto 95 MC 190 160 130 955 865 785
.38 Super(+P) 130 MC 426 348 298 1215 1099 1017
.38 Special 158 LRN 200 183 168 755 723 692
.38 Special 130 MC 261 240 223 950 913 879
.40 S&W 180 MC 388 350 319 985 936 893
.40 S&W 165 MC 485 396 340 1150 1040 964
.357 Sig. 125 MC 506 422 359 1350 1146 1018
10mm Auto 180 MC 529 452 398 1150 1063 998
.44 Rem. Mag. 180 JSP 1036 745 551 1610 1365 1175
.45 Auto 230 MC 356 326 300 835 800 767

This is a ballistic table from the sportsmans guide, I hope it comes out right.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/resource/remington_charts/handbal.htm

The decision was simple for me, I wanted something small and effective. I knew I wanted a glock after reading this.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

I went to a local range where you can rent any gun on the wall repeatedly for $5 flat. I bought a box of 9mm, .40, 45, and 357. After shooting every conceivable frame size and caliber of glock, I was torn between the 40 and the 45. A quick check of some ballitics tables I saw the .40 was more effective at it's intended job. The recoil was about the same to me, some may argue, but that was my opinion. With the .40 you get small framed light guns, high capacity mags, and the ammo is the same price as .45 in my area. I think my package is a great tool against anything or anyone that threatens me or my family.

Back to the OP, I don't hate the 9mm. My next handgun will be a 9mm. My first gun was bought as a tool not a toy. I'm not saying the 9mm is only a toy, for my first gun I wanted the most bang for the buck in a dependable package. When summer rolls around, I'll be looking for a ruger LCP to carry when the outfit calls for it. Hope this helps.

So...the table didn't come out at all. Click the link to take a look. That sucks, it took like 15 min to space all that out right :cuss:

[hostilecrab]

Not sure why...

As long as shot placement is accurate, the 9mm will do fine.

A burning piece of hot lead 9mm in diameter in the brain or heart will kill. :D

-HCrab

[mgregg85]

I don't hate the 9mm, its just that there are newer, better options out there for a carry pistol, the .45ACP for example.:neener:

[Rifleman6555]

I have used 9mm handguns and sub guns in defense of my life in places you don't want to be. I carried a 9mm Swedish K and a Czech CZ75. Both were using hardball and both were used at one time or another and both got me home. I muse at the Internet Ninjas who lambaste the 9mm and tout nothing less than 40 because they read about it in other internet sites or heard about it from another Ninja. They don't know any more about combat shooting then they do about forni.....well watch the movie Patton to get the rest of that speech.
When I stopped doing things that could get me killed, I bouht myself a CZ75 in 9mm. It is my go-to handgun. I do have Speer Gold Dots in it now and not hardball. My one concession. Waiting to try out the new Hornady Critical Defense round now. It looks good. I know the 9mm will stop and will kill. I have seen it and I am here to tell ya.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Okay, here are my thoughts on the 9mm. I personally swear by it, simply because it is the biggest caliber I can afford to shoot regularly, and get good with, and there are pocket pistols out there in 9mm.

You do have 9mm haters, but most people don't hate the 9, they simply prefer something else.

As for those that say it's adequate, but not as good as .45 and .40, what I can say is this: In a FMJ, you couldn't be more right. Stick some flying ashtrays in it, and there isn't a big enough difference between 9 and it's competition to matter.

[IndianaBoy]

I carry and am completely comfortable with my 9mm.

I can shoot much larger quantities of 9mm due to cost. Thus I am more proficient with it. I am comfortable with the defensive capability of a 9mm loaded with a quality JHP.

[ArmedBear]

A quick check of some ballitics tables I saw the .40 was more effective at it's intended job.

As I wrote above, energy overstates the importance of velocity. Momentum is probably more indicative of how hard of a "whack" the thing packs.

[skoro]

I think for many it's a macho thing.

The 45acp is a fat, manly round. In comparison, the 9mm looks kinda weak. I'm lucky because I own both. I carry a 9mm and keep another 9mm in my vehicle. They're sensible-sized weapons with decent capacity.

I love shooting my 1911, but it's too big to carry for my needs and man, is that ammo pricey. :scrutiny:

[Bezoar]

simple, its easy to find the shooting accounts and dash cam video tapes of big linebacker size guys taking 6 rounds of police hollowpoints form a 9mm and simply walking around afterwords and still yelling at the cops.
Besides, ER teams prefer 9mm shootings because the FMJ just pass right through thebody like a drill bit in soft butter. 45 acp smashes things up on its way through.

[Ridgerunner665]

I don't hate the 9mm...my wife carries a 9mm because its about all the recoil she can handle when it comes to shooting fast.

I do prefer the 45...I came to this conclusion after doing some deer hunting with pistol rounds (9mm, 40, 45acp).

I won't go into a lot of details about terminal performance...but the 45acp is a more efficient killer. The 40 is a close 2nd, and the 9mm lags way behind...I won't be using that round on any more deer. It took at least 3 rounds of 9mm to kill a deer...all vital zone hits, all within 20 yards, all ran waaay too far after being hit.

I realize that deer may be harder to kill than the average human...but the point is still clear.

[blikseme300]

My first post here on THR.:)

I served in the bush war a little to the west of Rhodesia in the mid 80's. Twice I needed to use a 9mm to defend myself. I am still around - the 2 AK47's were turned in... The pistol used was a Star B standard issue using standard NATO FMJ 9mm 115gr. One shot to the chest kills, both.

Today I carry a CZ75BD even though I have a choice of any handgun available in Texas. Do I trust the 9mm for self defense? Yep! BTW, for the academics, I do prefer a rifle or shotgun for home defense, but these are not always at hand.

[Sir Aardvark]

It is every 9mm's dream to grow up to be a .45

[inSight-NEO]

I dont think its a "hate" thing. Unfortunately, it seems to be of general opinion that for 9mm rounds to be of truly "effective" use for, lets say HD, +P or more is needed. Also, while still an obvious killing caliber, the 9mm just doesnt have the over-all "stopping" status of other available calibers (no..Im not talking magic bullets here either). Im approaching this from a ballistic standpoint, by the way. Now, there are exceptions to the rule and certainly there are some very effective "standard pressure" loads available. So, keep in mind, Im speaking of the general...not the specific. I certainly wouldnt feel "unprepared" with a 9mm loaded with Federal 115g. JHP (9BP). I reference this round because we, my wife and I, prefer to use standard pressure loads out of our Sig.

Frankly, it seems like most people who choose a 9mm do so because of the following: lower cost of ammo, easier to shoot vs larger calibers (although I somewhat disagree with this) and generally higher mag capacity. These are, to be honest, good considerations.

Regardless, the 9mm is a good round. But, the .45 ACP or .357 Magnum notwithstanding, it just seems to have been supplanted by calibers like the .40 S&W or .357 Sig as the latest "in" caliber. Personally, Id probably take a .45 ACP over all others. It, as far as I know, does not rely on higher pressures to be considered an extremely effective round. But, I still see much value in the 9mm. So, to me, its not that the 9mm is "bad"...its just that there are better.

Im sure you will find that there are as many opinions about the 9mm (including all of the other calibers) as there are about the guns that shoot them. Essentially, its all about what fits you best, what you shoot best and what you can most afford to shoot....often.

But, with all of this said, none of these would I choose over the old "standby"....the 12 gauge shotgun.

[Snobal]

I must confess that I am not a "gun writer."

...so what do I know?????

All I got to go on is shooting critters with various pistols/revolvers since the 1950's.

I have taken deer from coast-to-coast with revolvers.

I gave up on the 9mm when I saw that jack rabbits ran off to die when center-punched by by 9mm --- but .38 wadcutter and any revolver of .41 or bigger laid them out every time.

JMHO

[NavyGuy]

Armed Bear... I'm not calling you out or anything, but...

As I wrote above, energy overstates the importance of velocity. Momentum is probably more indicative of how hard of a "whack" the thing packs.

Can you show me where a 45 has more velocity than a .40?

[f4t9r]

Why do people hate the 9mm?

The reason I hate it is if you look at it upside down it looks like WW6
and when you go to pick up ammo they never have it.

[Ridgerunner665]

NavyGuy,

CorBon 230 grain ...over 1,000 fps

There are 40 loads that are a tad faster...but none of them use 230 grain bullets.

[NavyGuy]

NavyGuy,

CorBon 230 grain ...over 1,000 fps

There are 40 loads that are a tad faster...but none of them use 230 grain bullets.
Today 07:57 PM

If energy is a combination of mass and speed then why is the .45 always behind the .40 in the tables? I haven't seen the Corbon 230 grain ballistics, I just stick with regular walmart type ammo ballistics. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ at all, if there is something I'm missing please let me know.

[Ben86]

Most of the people hate the 9mm because of what they've heard from Bob behind the counter or Jim down the street. They don't actually know its performance on the street.

Is it as good of a manstopper as a .45? No. Is it far behind? Again, no. Yes, wider is better, but if you have to sacrifice a good chunk of velocity the end result just about evens out.

Some people also expect rifle like stopping power from their handgun and if they are using a 9mm and don't get it, it's because they used a 9mm. But if a .45 fails to stop as quickly as desired, "That was one tough SOB!"

[Ridgerunner665]

NavyGuy,
I'm going to eat my pizza.

Then I'll quote it word for word from Jim Carmichel...he explains it clearer than I can.

Give me a few minutes.

[markinmichiagn]

Because 9+19 is 28 not 45.

[NavyGuy]

Rifleman6555, I don't know if this was directed at me or not. I was the last one to post about the .40 so I assume so.

I have used 9mm handguns and sub guns in defense of my life in places you don't want to be.

I'll assume you defend our country in one way or another, for that alone I respect your opinion and perspective.

I muse at the Internet Ninjas who lambaste the 9mm and tout nothing less than 40 because they read about it in other internet sites or heard about it from another Ninja.

I really hope this isn't directed at me. I am not a internet ninja, I have no pics of me in full kit sporting an AR-15 and a katana.

They don't know any more about combat shooting then they do about forni.....well watch the movie Patton to get the rest of that speech.

Never been to a combat shooting course, or experienced it in real life, I hope I never have to. But, I do have two little trophy's at home that prove my history of fornication at least twice. I'm a guy who looked, researched and made a decision without a lot of money to spare. The best possible choice for my protection and money based on facts not opinion.

I know the 9mm will stop and will kill.

Me too. A .22 will stop and kill. So will a .380, .32, .45, .44, .357, 10mm, 50 BMG. None of them had what I was looking for in a handgun. Like I said before, my next handgun will be a 9mm, and I won't feel outgunned at all. But, for my first purchase, the .40 was the best possible choice for me. That's all. Just my opinion. Jeez guys, isn't that what this thread is all about, opinions? This just happens to be mine.

[Ridgerunner665]

Before I get into all that though...I want to preface it with this:

Kinetic energy is not a great "yardstick" to measure a rounds effectiveness...I know its the popular way, but its far from the best way.

We would all be better served if ammo boxes came with the calculated momentum printed on them.

Another thing...most people already know this...

High velocity penetrates hard barriers...sectional density matters less and less as velocity increases.

But a slow moving round with a higher sectional density will plow through ALOT of meat and bone...much more than the light high velocity bullet (in most cases...nothing will make a liar out of you, while at the same time making you sound like an expert, quicker than discussing terminal ballistics, rifling twist, or how good your coon dog is)

[inSight-NEO]

But, for my first purchase, the .40 was the best possible choice for me. That's all. Just my opinion. Jeez guys, isn't that what this thread is all about, opinions? This just happens to be mine.

...and it is a good choice, no doubt. I personally prefer the .45 ACP. If I feel the need for more barrier penetration (not referencing the previous post, btw), Id probably go with the .40 S&W. For HD though, I feel the .45 ACP bests any other handgun round out there..all things considered (and when speaking practically). However, if I were LE, I would certainly consider switching to the .40 S&W. Outside of that, I just dont see the need.

[MMCSRET]

I don't "HATE" any caliber or cartridge. That said; has anyone ever heard of the 9X19 used as an accuracy cartridge in any kind of contest outside combat style shoots? I never have; thats why I tend to prefer 38 Special and 45 Auto. 9MM is fun, but I will cary something else.

[Ridgerunner665]

Everything below this is a direct quote from Jim Carmichel...(and its the best comparison of 40 vs. 45 that I have ever seen)

Momentum is the force of a moving object that makes it want to keep pushing ahead, even when something is pushing it back. This figure tells how hard a bullet hits something and also gives an idea of how long it keeps pushing.

To illustrate, lets compare golf balls and ping pong balls. They are nearly identical in size, but if you roll them across a shag carpet at the same initial speed, the golf ball will continue to roll long after the ping pong ball has stopped. Though this comparison gets our thinking on the right track, it is unfair because the golf ball is heavier and has more energy. To equalize the test, we give the ping pong ball a lot more velocity so that the respective launch energies are equal. But the golf ball still rolls further through the shag carpet.
Thats when we realize that the golf ball has something more than just the force of its velocity, that there's something in its weight that makes it want to forge ahead...the same as it takes more energy to get a heavier bullet moving, its takes more to stop it.

[Ridgerunner665]

He goes on to say this:

When one considers momentum, one realizes that perhaps the "old school" of ballistic thought has more to offer than todays high velocity extremists would lead us to believe. To a certain extent, this is certainly the case, but don't put all your eggs in the momentum basket. Energy and momentum are easily formulated and we can use either one to prove just about any point we want to make.

(Hence my previous statement about lying and coon dogs)

[John_galt]

" ....ER teams prefer 9mm shootings...."

I'll leave the caliber arguments to others. But, as a physician I will comment on medicine. The above is wrong (to be polite). The most important thing I look at in a trauma is entry and, if there is one, exit wounds. In the terms used here - shot placement. What is hit matters far more than with what they are hit. When I teach the paramedic trauma lectures I tell them I want to know where anatomically someone is shot when they call in from the feild. If there is time to get weapon calibers and proximity, nice but not essential. Remember this "butter" you speak off so dismissively encases some really important "stuff." Little impotant things like vessels and nerves, to which the human body reacts poorly when insulted
with a bullet. I have seen 9mm GSW to the lower leg result in below the knee amputaion, because of the damage caused by shrapnel created by what was the tibia. This while the 9mm was passing through "butter." Until you get down to very small calibers, we don't have preference. Be it luck or skill, even very small calibers can be lethal depending on where a patient is shot.

[hostilecrab]

9 + 9 + 9 = Double tap to the chest, and one to the head !!!

Allergies:
Pet dander
Pennicillin
Milk products
Burning hot lead to chest and head

-HCrab

:D

[jad0110]

Most of the people hate the 9mm because of what they've heard from Bob behind the counter or Jim down the street.

I overheard a customer in a gunshop say she preferred the feel of 9mm in Brand X (can't remember what brand X was), but her husband snidely commented something to the effect of "if you shoot a badguy between the eyes with that 9mm you will only make him angry, but if you shoot him with this .45 you will throw him back 10 feet". He left the part out about how if the badguy gets hit in the hand with the .45 it will tear his arm off and throw it back an additional 30 feet :scrutiny: . And if you had used a .44 Magnum, it was have set the hand on fire ... and a .500 would have vaporized the whole arm. :rolleyes:

Who knows? Most 9mm loads are, admittedly, mediocre man stoppers, but .38 special is even worse, and I don't see it singled out for nearly as much opprobrium as the 9mm.

<sigh>

How so? The time tested 38+P FBI load will reliably penetrate to the FBI's 12" minimum while also expanding. There are many other 38 loads out there that perform just as well or better. 38 just doesn't look all that great on paper, what with it's typically low kenetic energy. But as others have posted, kenetic energy really doesn't tell us much.

Placement and Penetration are the two most important factors for ammo/gun selection, IMO. Select a cartridge that has good penetration (be it a .38, 9mm, .40, 45 etc) but you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it, then you probably aren't going to be served well. On the other hand, select a load that you can precisely place but lacks penetration and you may also end up in trouble. So if one shoots .45 and 9mm equally well, and ammo cost is not a consideration, then .45 may be the better option. As I indicated, ammo cost does figure in for many of us, and the 9mm has a significant advantage there.

Of course, there are other factors that determine "stopping power". Psycology of the shoot-ee is a BIG one. So is the reliability of the chosen weapon. Confidence figures in too, so if you feel totally helpless with a 9mm, then you should probably pick something else; otherwise you may not perfom as confidently if the crap ever does hit the fan.

I carry .38 and .45 and feel equally undergunned with either - I'd prefer a rifle or shotgun, afterall :). Actually, the nod goes to .38 revolvers by a small margin, as that is what I shoot best and am most confident with. And I carry ammo that gives sufficient penetration, with the added bonus of reliable expansion. YMMV.

[tackleberry65]

I love how these threads devolve into "I like heavy, slow/fast, light bullets better, so that's right." lol Truth is, being given the choice of standing in front of a motorcycle going 200mph, a car going 100 mph, and a school bus going 50 mph is a really crappy choice to have to make.

[Ridgerunner665]

Not bad for your first post tackleberry65...not bad at all.

But we are "in search of truth"...LOL.

[tackleberry65]

Thanks, Ridgerunner665. I'll just wait here patiently for the truth to hit the fan. :)

[cbrgator]

The truth is neither one. The truth is preference. The truth is get a rifle or a shotgun :)

[Ridgerunner665]

:D

You wont have to wait long...Welcome to THR.

[NavyGuy]

I love how these threads devolve into "I like heavy, slow/fast, light bullets better, so that's right." lol Truth is, being given the choice of standing in front of a motorcycle going 200mph, a car going 100 mph, and a school bus going 50 mph is a really crappy choice to have to make.

Thanks, Ridgerunner665. I'll just wait here patiently for the truth to hit the fan.

All, please welcome the newest poster to THR, Tackleberry65! Otherwise known as my older brother. I actually called him up for your post Ridgerunner6555. He got all the brains in the family, and left me, the pissed off runt. Your post on the golf ball and ping pong ball threw me for a loop, and I didn't quite know what to make of it. Momentum brings something to the table that I never gave a thought to. The .45 wins there. Anyway, I'm on these forums because I love firearms and the sport of shooting, not because I think I know everything. I try to make that clear in every post, I'm here to learn and be better at what I like doing.

I still like the .40 over the .45 :p

[Ridgerunner665]

There will always be a slow/heavy vs. light/fast argument (debate?) going on somewhere.

And there is very little "real" difference between a 40 and a 45...the only edge the 45 has is its momentum.

Well...that and it does not "KaBoom" as many Glocks (sorry...couldn't resist)

[Ridgerunner665]

The Truth:

See post #74...that's as close as you're gonna get to the "truth" of the slow/heavy vs. light/fast argument.

It (#74) seems irrelevant hanging out there...but it is actually the whole point.

[DawgFvr]

Only "KaIdiots" create "KaBooms" my friend.

Me? I love the 9mm.

I carry a G26 and my issue is the G17.

I am highly accurate with this caliber and can place multiple rounds on target in very short periods of time.

[Ridgerunner665]

Did he just call me a KaIdiot?

Nowhere in this thread have I bashed the 9mm...I stated facts based on my own experience and that of a well respected shooter (Carmichel)

[cbrgator]

Ridge, I think he was kidding. That's how I read it.

[Isher]

" ....ER teams prefer 9mm shootings...."

I'll leave the caliber arguments to others. But, as a physician I will comment on medicine. The above is wrong (to be polite). The most important thing I look at in a trauma is entry and, if there is one, exit wounds. In the terms used here - shot placement. What is hit matters far more than with what they are hit. When I teach the paramedic trauma lectures I tell them I want to know where anatomically someone is shot when they call in from the feild. If there is time to get weapon calibers and proximity, nice but not essential. Remember this "butter" you speak off so dismissively encases some really important "stuff." Little impotant things like vessels and nerves, to which the human body reacts poorly when insulted
with a bullet. I have seen 9mm GSW to the lower leg result in below the knee amputaion, because of the damage caused by shrapnel created by what was the tibia. This while the 9mm was passing through "butter." Until you get down to very small calibers, we don't have preference. Be it luck or skill, even very small calibers can be lethal depending on where a patient is shot.



All -

Truer words were never spoke.

isher

[Ridgerunner665]

Ridge, I think he was kidding. That's how I read it.

Probably was...its hard to tell sometimes.

[NavyGuy]

Ridgerunner, Here's an article on momentum, energy, and velocity. Pretty much proves you right :banghead:

http://terra.gg.utah.edu/guns/energy.pdf

And there is very little "real" difference between a 40 and a 45...the only edge the 45 has is its momentum.

The only edge the .40 has is higher capacity magazines, and lighter, smaller easier to carry frames. :neener:

[Ridgerunner665]

Good article...I had not seen it, Thanks for the link.

I have no arguments for the capacity, weight, and size discussion...1911's are big, heavy, and 9 rounds at most.

[yongxingfreesty]

it's funny how some gun show vendor told a customer, "you sure you want a 9mm? What the hell you gonna kill with it?"

I turned around to give him a *** look and he winked at me. seriously ***

[eldon519]

While momentum is very important, it is also necessary to consider the sectional density of the round. That is largely where penetration comes into play.

Example: an MLB baseball traveling 65 mph and a 200-grain .45 slug have about the same momentum. What's the difference? One will penetrate flesh, one will not. That's an illustration of the importance of sectional density.

A lot of big momentum fans do not realize that 115, 124, and 147 grain 9mm bullets have almost the exact same sectional densities as .45 bullets in 185, 200, and 230 grain weights respectively, and in typical-for-caliber velocities, the 9mm delivers them faster. I just pointed out that bit about velocities as something to think about though, there are many more factors involved, and things are not that simple, but it tends to surprise some folks.

[cbrgator]

Can't everyone agree to disagree? There is no right answer. Both are widely used, both work well. The 9ers wont convince the 45ers, the 45ers won't convince the 9ers. It's a question with no answer. Can't well just get along? :neener:

We might as well debate the origins of the universe/time.

[Ridgerunner665]

Good point...

147 grain XTP sectional density is .167 and the ballistic coefficient is .212

230 grain XTP is SD = .162, BC = .188

But the 45 displaces more tissue and just plain hits harder (by virtue of larger caliber and more momentum)

The 147 grain 9mm rounds are well known for overpenetrating...at around 1,000 fps, they punch right on through...not enough tissue displacement.

This will lead up to hydrodynamic effects...displacing water in a contained environment.

And BTW...I am not trying to argue with anybody here...just offering a little something to "stir" the discussion. I'm no expert, and I do have an opinion that is already well known.

[Ridgerunner665]

cbrgator is right...but its fun to debate sometimes.

I'm laid off work, the weather sux...I have nothing better to do...LOL

[jpwilly]

I personally don't hate 9mm and own a wonder 9 myself (CZ P-01). But I prefer the 45ACP in a 1911. Either one will do the job if used properly but I don't think anyone could successfully argue that a 9mm is more lethal than a 45. The only argument ever used for 9mm is that it works with proper shot placement and is used successfully by the PD or Military holds more rounds is smaller and lighter and yes that's all true. But, frankly with any pistol shot placement is key even the .223 is quite a bit more powerful than either of these common pistol rounds and many find it a little less than desirable at times...would you hunt dear with 223?

[eldon519]

To me, over-penetration just means there is capacity for more expansion without suffering under-penetration from a bullet design perspective. Check out some of the test results from the ATK seminars utilizing the Federal HST 147s. It's pretty reliable for around 12-14" of penetration and expansion from about .70-.80+" diameter. They reigned in that over-penetration with 2X expansion.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

[dwstinge]

My fav. is the fact that ammo is cheap and easy to get. And with the advancement of ammo lately you can get some really good ammo for the 9mm

[jpwilly]

The 45 and 40 still outperform the 9mm but that doesn't mean the 9mm wont be enough.

Test Events

Bare Gelatin
All rounds typically perform well in bare gelatin, which is the easiest of all test events.
Previous and current generations of hollow point rounds were and are designed to expand
to 1.5 times the original bullet diameter. Federal’s HST rounds were engineered to
expand well beyond twice the original diameter in bare gelatin.

Federal HST 45 ACP – 1.043”/.452” = 2.31 times larger than its original diameter
Federal HST 40 S&W – 0.945”/.40” = 2.36 times larger than its original diameter
Federal HST 9mm – 0.891”/.356” = 2.5 times larger than its original diameter

Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight

Federal HST 45 ACP... 230 gr... 12.75”... 1.043”... 100.96%
Winchester SXT 45 ACP... 230 gr... 12.5”... 0.795”... 100.61%
Remington GS 45 ACP... 185 gr... 14.0”... 0.730”... 100.38%

Federal HST 40 S&W...180 gr... 11.5”... 0.945”... 101.78%
Winchester SXT 40 S&W...180 gr... 13.5”...0.658”... 92.67%

Federal HST 9mm...147 gr...11.5”... 0.891”...101.5%
Federal HST 9mm...124 gr...11.75”...0.839”... 101.05%
Winchester SXT 9mm...127 gr...16.0”...0.718”...94.49%

Heavy Clothing
All bullets performed well in Heavy Clothing. Federal HST again demonstrated the
designed expansion characteristics and outperformed all tested rounds for expansion.

Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight

Federal HST 45 ACP 230 gr. 14.0” 0.850” 99.65%
Winchester SXT 45 ACP 230 gr. 12.5” 0.773” 101.26%
Remington GS 45 ACP 185 gr. 14.25” 0.704” 102.22%

Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. 13.0” 0.788” 101.56%
Winchester SXT 40 S&W 180 gr. 14.0” 0.757” 91.89%

Federal HST 9mm 147 gr. 13.75” 0.689” 102.38%
Federal HST 9mm 124 gr. 12.0” 0.709” 102.26%
Winchester SXT 9mm 127 gr. 13.5” 0.684” 97.48%

_____________________________________

Wallboard

Wallboard is a harder barrier to overcome. While Federal HST performed flawlessly,
Winchester SXT experienced over penetration, plugged bullets, and core jacket
separations.

Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight

Federal HST 45 ACP 230 gr. 11.75” 0.843” 100.35%
Winchester SXT 45 ACP 230 gr. 13.0” 0.75” 100.74%
Remington GS 45 ACP 185 gr. 15.25” 0.698” 98.92%
Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. 13.0” 0.786” 101.78%
Winchester SXT* 40 S&W 180 gr. 20.0” 0.475” 100.11%
Federal HST 9mm 147 gr. 13.0” 0.649” 100.54%
Federal HST 9mm 124 gr. 12.5” 0.713” 99.84%
Winchester SXT** 9mm 127 gr. 15.25” 0.430” 69.13%
*Bullet Plugged
**Core Jacket Separation

Plywood

Plywood is second only to glass in difficulty when measured in terms of bullet failures
versus expansion and penetration. Federal HST rounds performed as designed and
expanded at least 1.6 times their original diameter. Winchester and Remington both
experienced over penetrations with plugged, poorly expanded bullets.

Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight

Federal HST 45 ACP 230 gr. 13.25” 0.858” 101.61%
Winchester SXT* 45 ACP 230 gr. 29.75” 0.452” 99.65%
Remington GS 45 ACP 185 gr. 12.5” 0.679” 99.84%

Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. 12.5” 0.772” 100.33%
Winchester SXT* 40 S&W 180 gr. 21.5” 0.402” 99.72%

Federal HST 9mm 147 gr. 12.5” 0.594” 97.76%
Federal HST 9mm 124 gr. 12.5” 0.656” 102.34%
Winchester SXT 9mm 127 gr. 14.25” 0.671” 96.77%
Remington JHP* 9mm 115 gr. 26.25” 0.356” 99.65%

*Bullet Plugged

Steel

All bullets perform similarly when shot through steel. The hollow points are forced
closed and upon close inspection of the gelatin block you will discover steel discs that
have been cut out of the steel plate. Results of the steel testing are in the attached results
document.


Auto Glass

Auto Glass is the toughest and most difficult of all barrier tests. Federal’s new HST
performed amazingly for non-bonded technology. HST retained its core jacket integrity
3 out of 4 shots – 75%. Winchester SXT and Remington Golden Sabre bullets
experienced core jacket separations 100% of the time. It is important to note that in the
event of a core jacket separation, FBI Test Protocol measures only the single deepest
penetrating fragment of the bullet for expansion, retained weight, and penetration. Both
the core and the jacket were mounted separately on the board.

Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight

Federal HST 45 ACP 230 gr. 14.25” 0.649” 89.39%
Winchester SXT* 45 ACP 230 gr. 13.75” 0.546” 75.65%
Remington GS* 45 ACP 185 gr. 9.0” 0.511” 63.35%

Federal HST* 40 S&W 180 gr. 11.25” 0.495” 56.94%
Winchester SXT* 40 S&W 180 gr. 7.5” 0.582 67.83%

Federal HST 9mm 147 gr. 11.5” 0.474 81.7%
Federal HST 9mm 124 gr. 11.75” 0.513 82.58%
Winchester SXT* 9mm 127 gr. 11.5” 0.499” 59.29%

*Core Jacket Separation

[Ridgerunner665]

Yes...shot placement is the most important thing...any argument otherwise is just plain silly.

I have killed quite a few deer with a 223...but thats more about proper bullet selection (we'll save that for another thread)

I don't really know why so many people don't like the 9mm, unless its because they simply don't know any better...believed what they read in a book, heard at the gun shop/range, or , heaven forbid, saw on a gun forum...

The 9mm is not the most efficient killer of animals thats well suited for CCW...I know that for a fact, ArmedBear seems to know it too....I think we figured it out the same way.

We killed things with different rounds and performed an "autopsy" because we wanted to see for ourselves...some people are more interested in ballistics than others I guess but one thing rings clear...ArmedBear is on the other side of the country yet our results were the same...

The 45acp is a more efficient killer...the 9mm will kill, just not as quick.

[Ridgerunner665]

Bullet selection makes a BIG difference...but does not change the momentum.

[tackleberry65]

Ridgerunner, Here's an article on momentum, energy, and velocity. Pretty much proves you right

http://terra.gg.utah.edu/guns/energy.pdf

Quote:
And there is very little "real" difference between a 40 and a 45...the only edge the 45 has is its momentum.
The only edge the .40 has is higher capacity magazines, and lighter, smaller easier to carry frames.

I don't think the link really "proves" anything except that the TC Contender in .375 H&H you've been thinking about getting will WASTE any caliber we've been discussing. Only one shot, though, so make it a good one.

[eldon519]

Ridgerunner, I wasn't suggesting that bullet selection does change momentum. I was only pointing out what can be done with the 147-grain 9mm.

Jpwilly, you're right, I wasn't suggesting that the 9mm HST performs better than the other caliber HST rounds. I was using it to illustrate my belief that a round typically known for over-penetration can be turned into an excellent SD round by designing it to open up more. I do believe it is worth noting though that the 9mm HST are achieving penetration and expansion results that are typical of what other brands do with their .40 or .45 ammo. Presumably if that level of performance was acceptable with the .40 or .45, it would also be acceptable with the 9mm. That isn't to diminish what is being done with the .40 or .45 HST rounds, that stuff is very impressive and has raised the bar in my book.

Also, I am not suggesting a single 9mm round is more devastating than a single .45 round, nor would I ever. I think people rely too much on a "One-shot stop" mentality. In a fight, I plan to continue firing until the threat is neutralized. I believe that is where the 9mm makes up its ground as an equally-good defensive caliber. It is an easier caliber to fire quickly and accurately. Tons of people will argue with that, but .45 simply recoils harder (that whole momentum thing), and heavier recoil slows you down. You can look to IPSC and IDPA for examples, primarily power factor classifications to keep things fair.

If I only had one round, yes, I'd like to be .45 if nothing bigger was around. With a full magazine though, I'd be just as happy with a 9mm. That's my $0.02.

[Gun Slinger]

Why do people hate the 9mm?

Same reason that others dislike .45, .40, .357 and any of the other calibers: Different preferences based upon differing opinions, experiences and needs. Ain't it great that we have so many choices that we can afford to be picky?

:)

[Big Bill]

I don't like it because it replaced the .45 ACP as our military round back in the 1980s. And, the Beretta M9 (92F-FS) replaced the Colt M1911.

[chriske]

What's to hate ?

[deacon8]

I don't "hate" it, but think about it. There are many other's that out-perform the 9mm. Moreover, there are many classic, wonderful designs that handle rounds that out-perform the 9mm as well. For some reason, the 9mm is kind of stuck with the notion of it being limited to polymer framed, relatively unattractive pistols.

People also, often relate it to the incredibly ineffective military round. I guess it's just a combination of things.

Keep in mind that I'm just answering the original question. I am not taking these thoughts on as my own...so don't attack me.

[Ben86]

I believe the fact that the .45 vs 9mm debate has been going on for about 100 years now shows that they are both closely matched. Logically one would have outlasted the other if one was significantly better.

Being a tightwad, if I couldn't enjoy both I would choose the cheaper one.

[Landor]

The same reason a lot hate Glocks. They don't know any better. :)

[tension]

Didn't Wild Bill Hickok use .36 caliber revolvers? Thats about equivalent to a 9mm and he did alright.

[Prion]

I hate it because it's cheap, accurate, abundant, my mags hold 19 rounds, soft recoil, and.....my resident mall ninja told me it wasn't cool.

[The Lone Haranguer]

The Europellet? I would never make fun of it. ;)

Actually, I've standardized on this cartridge for my carry gun(s).

[brisendines]

I don't like the 9mm because the high pressures split cases after about 10 times reloading them, whereas 45s can last almost forever!
I really think the 9 is a fine round. I would trust it completely with my life. I also like looking at the huge bore and feeling the weight of the bullet. The whole hair on the chest thing.
I do prefer the 45.

I think its funny how some people say the 9mm over penetrates, other people say it under penetrates, yadda yadda. I looked at the ratings for bullet proof vests once- a 45 JHP is one of the easiest rounds to stop, a 45 FMJ is slightly harder, but much easier than a 9mm JHP, and a 9mm FMJ is one of the hardest rounds to stop.

[Ben86]

After about 10 times reloading them?? I'm not into reloading yet, but I thought 2-3 time was max. Am I wrong?

[mauiglide]

I own 9mm .45 ACP and .357 magnum handguns. My favorite caliber is the 9mm because it is inexpensive compared to the other two calibers I own and ultimately I shoot my 9mm pistols more. Because I shoot my 9mm pistols more, I am more accurate with them. Eventually I'll train more with the other calibers but for now my 9mm caliber pistols are my go to firearms for SD/HD/SHTF.

[brisendines]

I've reloaded my cases probably around 10 times, and last time we went out a case split, and the primer pockets are getting a little loose. My 45 cases are still good to go. As long as the cases are in decent shape, I'll keep throwing lead in them.

[tinygnat219]

To the OP: Because they have no idea what they are talking about.

[woad_yurt]

I think the 9MM is disliked more here than elsewhere is because it's not American, so to speak. It kind of sounds a little sterile to say, "nine millimeter," as compared to saying something like "thirty eight super" or "fourty four special."

I'm not knocking it as a cartridge; I own one. I don't know; it just seems to lack some flavor.

Maybe some people don't want one simply because so many do. I resisted for a long, long time until I saw my Star. That thing is one heinous gun. Sigh....

[Badlander]

I don't hate the 9mm I just prefer the .45. I do like to say the 9mm is A good round for teaching women and children. Just because many 9mm lovers are thin skinned leading to long threads like this one.:neener:

[brisendines]

Thin skinned- like the animals a 9mm is capable of taking down? ;)

[ir3e971]

I for one love the 9mm. It shoots well, is low recoil, and a full size pistol can hold an awful lot of them. I also love the 45. I think for some folks the caliber wars are a lot like picking a football team.

[jad0110]

After about 10 times reloading them?? I'm not into reloading yet, but I thought 2-3 time was max. Am I wrong?

Depends. If you are loading at or near max SAAMI pressures, then you may get less than 5 times out of your brass. Keep the pressures low (at minimum or slightly over) and case life can be extended greatly.

How much the gun beats up the brass is a factor too. Glock .40s are known for wearing out .40 brass faster than other .40 hanguns, probably due to the partially unsupported chamber.

Always inpsect your brass before reloading, always!