221 fireball problems


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snakeman
January 20, 2009, 03:56 PM
I seem to be having trouble with handloading my 221 fireball cz 527. I am using remington 6.5 primers the manual calls for 7.5. a 40gr vmax over 15.8 grains of lil gun. some primers fall out after the shot and i get tough extraction.

Please help!

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NCsmitty
January 20, 2009, 04:12 PM
Sounds like too much pressure to me.
I doubt the primers are making the difference. Back off the charge to the starting loads listed and try. Or try a little slower powder like H4198.

Some guns are not able to handle near Max loads for various reasons.

NCsmitty

rcmodel
January 20, 2009, 04:18 PM
The only .221 Fireball 40 grain data Hodgdon shows is for a 40 grain Nosler seated to 1.830 COL.

Which is not a Hornady V-Max!

They show 16.0 Lil'Gun as a MAX load with the Nosler bullet.

They also show 14.5 as the place to start.

rc

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 04:19 PM
Ok I thought i should try that before buying a 1000 more primers and having the same problem.

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 04:23 PM
I checked the bullet seating depth with the rifle and it is a moderate way from the lands.

rcmodel
January 20, 2009, 04:33 PM
Primers falling out is an indication of over-pressure stretching the case heads.

It has nothing to do with the primers themselves.

The V-Max bullets may have a longer bearing surface then the Noslers, due to the Hornadys shape.

You may also be seating them deeper in the case at the same OAL, because of the plastic tip making them longer then the Noslers.

The .221 Fireball is a very small case, and a lot of little things can increase pressure dramatically.

rc

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 04:37 PM
So should I try some different bullets? Or load start over again at starting loads? I worked up to this load from 15 grains and shot this load for a while with no problem. It happens once out of about 30 rounds.

Runningman
January 20, 2009, 04:44 PM
Sounds like excessive pressure to me. You have changed two components from the Hodgdon manual loads. Substituted V Max for Nosler B/T and are at near max load. Not a good idea. .224 cal V Max bullets will build more pressure/velocity sooner at a given charge weight than a .224 Nosler B/T in my experience.

Also 6 1/2 primers are a bad idea. The cup is thiner than 7 1/2. They are made for 22 Hornet pressure. Get some 7 1/2s or WSR primers.

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 04:45 PM
I can't find those primers anywhere that I don't have to charge on the credit card.

rcmodel
January 20, 2009, 04:46 PM
If you have primers falling out 1 out of 30 rounds, it is likely all the cases have stretched primer pockets by now.

You should be able to tell when re-priming them if the primer pockets are loose because there will be little if any resistance when you seat the new primers.

You may be over-pressure, or you could be O.K. and have just reloaded the same cases so many times they are worn out.

It's hard to tell from way over here!

rc

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 04:48 PM
I can tell you this. They are all new remington cases. This is my favorite rifle too even above my multimatch ar.

rcmodel
January 20, 2009, 05:12 PM
Another thing to check is case neck thickness.

Take one of the fired cases that a primer fell out of, and before resizing it:
See if a new bullet will slip-fit or fall back in the case mouth.

If the CZ has a tight chamber, and if any of your cases have thick necks, they can't expand enough in the chamber to release the bullet.

That will increase pressure a great deal.

rc

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 05:38 PM
thanks will do

243winxb
January 20, 2009, 06:17 PM
Warning: Remington does not recommend this primer for use in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington, 223 Remington, 204 Ruger, 17 Remington Fireball. Use the 7-1/2 Small Rifle Bench Rest primer in these cartridges.



This 6-1/2 Small Rifle primer is primarily designed for use in the 22 Hornet.

NCsmitty
January 20, 2009, 07:26 PM
Here's an article by Jim Calhoon, a ballistic experimenter, who had some interesting information on primers, besides the other stuff.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

NCsmitty

NCsmitty
January 20, 2009, 07:28 PM
Damn double post.

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 07:54 PM
thanks guys its most likely the primers I just got done fixing the gun spent about 30 minutes repairing the claw extractor. It was so swollen the bolt wouln't even come back all of the way! It's good now though.

flashhole
January 20, 2009, 08:08 PM
I load for the 221 Fireball. You would do yourself a big favor if you switched to Reloader #7 powder. You can load it to 19 grains (Lee 1.3cc dipper cup). I get much better performance with Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tips or Sierra 40 grain BlitzKing bullets than the Hornadys.

Regarding the primers - you might measure the difference in diameter between the 6 1/2 and 7 1/2 primers. I never had a fitment problem with the 7 1/2 and never had one back out, even when I ran some hot LilGun loads. I use a lot of the Remington 7 1/2 primers and the CCI BR-4 when I can find them. You want the powder doing the work so a milder primer is a good way to go.

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 08:12 PM
fair enough i think i will go with rem 7 1/2 and a starting load before i change anything else. As soon as i can find these primers i will get some and try that.

280shooter
January 20, 2009, 08:34 PM
I load for the 221 Fireball also.But mine are for the T/C 10 in,
I have a old booklet that came with myPistol.that list loads.
I'll pass them on in the next hour,,

What dies are you using,?these little cases can be real touchy.and Ifound even as little as 1/2 gr,is enough to send this heywire,
I always used bench rest primmers,

280shooter
January 20, 2009, 09:49 PM
T/C booklet
OK heres what I have, now these are old school. but they worked for me.
10 in barrel
Sierra 45 gr. spitz IMR 4198 17 gr. cci 450 primers REM cases 2481 fps
Speer 50 gr spitz IMR 4227 17 gr, cci 450 primers " " 2358
Sierra 50 gr blitz imr 4198 17 gr " " " " " 2352

Speer 52 gr h.p imr 4227 15 " " " " " 2400

http://http://i42.tinypic.com/2wdr05d.jpg

http://http://i41.tinypic.com/2vkfhw0.jpg

http://http://i43.tinypic.com/21b21iu.jpg

243winxb
January 20, 2009, 09:53 PM
IN 1963,when i had my Rem XP 100, 221 Fireball, i loaded IMR 4198 with a Sierra 50gr. #1330 CCI 450 primer. oal 1.811" I think it had a 10" barrel if i remember right. That load went 2536fps. I won't list the amount of powder because its over maximun for whats listed today.

280shooter
January 20, 2009, 09:58 PM
http://http://i42.tinypic.com/2wdr05d.jpg

http://http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2wdr05d&s=5

http://http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vkfhw0&s=5http://http://i41.tinypic.com/2vkfhw0.jpghttp://http://i43.tinypic.com/21b21iu.jpg

http://http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=21b21iu&s=5

280shooter
January 20, 2009, 10:02 PM
I have pics of the loadmanuel.if u want them PM i will send them,I tried using the tiny pic, web site and you can see its not working tonite

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 10:17 PM
I really appreciate everyone's help thank you very very much! Can't find those remington 7.5 primers anywhere in san angelo. My brother in law is trying to see if his boss's brother in law has some i can buy from him. =]

280shooter
January 20, 2009, 11:19 PM
CCI 450 works too

snakeman
January 20, 2009, 11:33 PM
ok thanks will small rifle magnum primers work

NCsmitty
January 20, 2009, 11:47 PM
ok thanks will small rifle magnum primers work

Yes, but you will have to start back with a starting recommended load. Be cautious because your loads were pretty stiff if you damaged your extractor removing the cases.

NCsmitty

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