caliber restrictions on blacktail deer in wa?


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Mak92fs
January 20, 2009, 05:16 PM
whats the requirment for pistol or rifle in washington state for hunting deer? i looked on division of wildlifes site but i cant download the regs...can anyone help me out?

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testar77
January 20, 2009, 05:38 PM
the minimum caliber is .24. They have some requirements for handguns that you will not find in the regs that you get over the counter (if you are hunting with it, not if just a sidearm). It has to do with the power factor of the round you are using, IIRC a really hot .357 and up will work.

Hope that helps a little.

Toby

testar77
January 20, 2009, 05:42 PM
dangit!!!

testar77
January 20, 2009, 05:45 PM
arrggh

testar77
January 20, 2009, 05:46 PM
oops

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 20, 2009, 06:25 PM
To quote the regs online:

http://wdfw.wa.govModern/wlm/game/hunter/huntregs2008.pdf

"Firearm Regulations
Rifles:
Big game, except cougar, must be hunted with a minimum of 24 caliber (6mm)
centerfire rifle. Cougar may be hunted with 22 caliber centerfire rifle. Rimfire rifles are not legal for big game.

Handguns:
Big game, except cougar, may be hunted with handguns with a minimum
barrel length of 4 inches per manufacturers specification, and fire a minimum 24 caliber centerfire cartridge. Cougar may be hunted with 22 caliber centerfire handgun. Rimfire handguns are not legal for big game.

Shotguns:
Deer, bear, and cougar may be hunted with 20 gauge to 10 gauge shotgunsshooting slugs or #1 or larger buckshot. Other big game may be hunted with a 10 or 12 gauge shotgun using slugs. "

There are some rules for power factor as Testar77 says. Basically its up to the game official of the area. Pretty much, if you plug a Deer with a 9mm Glock, you're getting fined. -and will lose the Deer. The rules used to read 750ft pounds of energy from hand gun bullet impacting at 100yds for large game, and 550ft pounds of energy from hand gun bullet impacting at 100yds for Deer sized game. Now that little tidbit of information is in the big regulations books at the regional game offices. What they were trying to do is get anyone with a snubnose .357 to quit wounding Deer.

-Steve

Mak92fs
January 22, 2009, 06:36 PM
lol i wasnt planning on using my 9mm....ive hunted whitetail and pretty much every other animal in ohio but im kinda new to hunting deer with rifle...except for crop destruction permits..which you can use anything now i just gotta find a decent priced rifle...hopefully something i can use for deer or elk..so far ive seen more elk i got my trusty 870 still so thats good i guess i wish i hadnt had to sell my 742 30 06 or the 10mm before i moved :fire:...


would 7.62 by .39 with some soft points work for the deer? and do you have to have a max number of rounds? i know someplaces have like a 3 or 5 round max?

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 22, 2009, 09:01 PM
would 7.62 by .39 with some soft points work for the deer? and do you have to have a max number of rounds?

OMG! LEAVE the assault rifle home! Sorry, personal opinion comes out.

Ok, I'm not aware of a maximum round count in a rifle while deer hunting in Washington. (But I'm not a conservation officer.)

I will say that I would consider the 7.62x39 right about the same as my .44mag pistol regarding its effectiveness on Deer sized game. If you use hunting bullets. Regretfully I do have a friend that has taken Blacktail with an SKS. But at close range. I wouldn't think about taking Mule Deer or even our Whitetail with such a whimpy rifle round. Although we do have some smaller gene pool Deer of each of the three species, we do also have quantities of each of them that will tip scales well over 220 pounds on the hoof and some Muly's that will go near 300 pounds. And getting close to them during rifle season isn't normally an option. A 30-30 is the smallest .30 cal cartridge I would ever hunt big game with. I don't knock the smaller faster shootin rounds, but the 7.62x39 is not a hunting round in my book. It was designed to kill frail humans. Not tougher animals. -By the way, some of the largest state book Blacktail are down in the Capitol peak area south of Olympia.

To be honest, seeing anyone in the field hunting big game, with a high capacity assault rifle, disgusts me. If you can't kill your quary with the 3-5 rounds, (preferably less than that), in your bolt action or even your semi-auto 'hunting' rifle, then you need to improve your hunting and/or shooting skills.

I started my teenagers out on single shot .243win Rossi's and they've both taken Mule Deer and Whitetail does.

You need to send email to the state wildlife director with your 7.62x39 questions:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/contact

-Steve


-PS.. Where are you seeing Elk?

Gryffydd
January 22, 2009, 10:11 PM
To be honest, seeing anyone in the field hunting big game, with a high capacity assault rifle, disgusts me. If you can't kill your quary with the 3-5 rounds, (preferably less than that), in your bolt action or even your semi-auto 'hunting' rifle, then you need to improve your hunting and/or shooting skills.

Have you seen people actually *take* more than 3-5 shots at game, or only carry magazines that might allow them to?

Also, the 7.62x39 isn't really *that* far short (http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R30302*R762391*R250SV) of the .30-30 or .243, as long as it's used within its effective range, though on big game neither of the others are great long range performers. Also, Corbon makes a 150 gr hunting round in 7.62x39 that has the same velocity as that Remington 125gr.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 22, 2009, 11:17 PM
Have you seen people actually *take* more than 3-5 shots at game

Unfortunately I have.

Also, the 7.62x39 isn't really *that* far short of the .30-30 or .243, as long as it's used within its effective range

I don't dissagree. But I feel the line has to be drawn somewhere. All shooters should know the effective range of the weapon/cartridge they'll be using against the game they are persuing.

-Steve

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 01:44 AM
Unfortunately I have.
That is too bad :cuss:

I don't dissagree. But I feel the line has to be drawn somewhere. All shooters should know the effective range of the weapon/cartridge they'll be using against the game they are persuing.

OK, I was just going off your outrage and frothing mouth ;)

oregonhunter
January 23, 2009, 03:15 AM
the x39 is not equal to the .243

deacon8
January 23, 2009, 03:22 AM
I agree with Oregonhunter on that.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 23, 2009, 11:32 AM
the x39 is not equal to the .243

Certainly not!

Remington Factory offerings (http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R762391*R243W3*R30301)

Again, I just draw the line for the .30cal, below the 30-30. The 7.62x39 doesn't have the best of hunting bullet selection either.

We're getting off topic from what Mak92fs asked. I will lend that my personal opinion is not alone in the woods. A good many hunters and most law enforcement personnel don't look at assault rifles as hunting arms.

Since he's asking about gun regulations when hunting in WA... Do not ever have a rifle or shotgun loaded in your vehicle. Any time. Don't even lean the loaded rifle on the outside of the vehicle. If you have a pistol loaded, keep it on your person and have a concealed weapons permit on you.

I've also linked the contact information so he can ask questions directly to WDFW.

And Mak92fs, I suggest you get the hunting regulations pamplet from any sports shop counter. The 2009 regs aren't available yet, but there's good information in last years printing.

-Steve

PBinWA
January 23, 2009, 12:14 PM
If you have a pistol loaded, keep it on your person and have a concealed weapons permit on you.


I believe Washington State is an "open carry" state. I'm not sure about the intricacies of carrying a loaded handgun while hunting if it isn't your primary hunting firearm. That may be a gray area.

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 12:15 PM
the x39 is not equal to the .243
Who said it was? I just looked over the whole thread and not one person said that.

They have some requirements for handguns that you will not find in the regs that you get over the counter (if you are hunting with it, not if just a sidearm). It has to do with the power factor of the round you are using,
I would love to find more information on this. All I can find is that it has to be >= .32 caliber and have a 4" or longer barrel. Where/how are you supposed to find the additional regulations?

testar77
January 23, 2009, 12:57 PM
I would love to find more information on this. All I can find is that it has to be >= .32 caliber and have a 4" or longer barrel. Where/how are you supposed to find the additional regulations?

Like Jack said in his first post, if they still have the power factor rules (which they did as of a few years ago) they were listed in the "Full" set of regs that is at the DFW station, which I think is in Lynnwood. That would be something I would like to see written in the normal reg pamphlet but hey I don't write em.

Also I couldn't agree more that the SKS's should stay at home when it comes to hunting, I just don't think that the 7.62x39 is adequate (unless you stay within pistol range). If you are going to limit yourself power wise that much, why carry a friggin rifle around, just pack a pistol.

I also wouldn't put the x39 anywhere near the .243 and others mentioned either. But I don't think that the .243 should be shot at deer sized game at much over 100yds either. JMO

And yes I too have heard people take 4 or more shots on animals before too, and that utterly disgusts me!!!

All that said, can a 7.62x39 kill deer? Sure, should it be used as a primary deer hunting round IMHO NO!


Toby

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 01:22 PM
if they still have the power factor rules (which they did as of a few years ago) they were listed in the "Full" set of regs that is at the DFW station, which I think is in Lynnwood. T
You would think that if they wanted people to follow the rules that they would make it easier to find out what the rules are... :banghead:

oregonhunter
January 23, 2009, 01:58 PM
Pick up the phone, you will get an exact answer that way.

testar77
January 23, 2009, 02:08 PM
You would think that if they wanted people to follow the rules that they would make it easier to find out what the rules are...


How long have you lived in Washington?????????

That would be Waaaaayyy to logical! It's easier to them to educate you on it while they are writing up the fine!

Water-Man
January 23, 2009, 02:20 PM
They would like people to get off their ass and do some research rather than bitching about it of these forums. And I strongly agree about leaving the assault rifles home when going on a hunt.

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 02:21 PM
How long have you lived in Washington?????????

Long enough, but although I've been a long time gun nut I haven't had much interest in hunting as I'm a vegetarian. However I married into a family of carnivores and my father in law is a big hunter so I've started paying attention to it. I'm beginning to think they purposely make everything as confusing and difficult as they possibly can. I'm probably going hunting with him this year just so he has the chance at a bit more meat in the freezer :) Although he did just have to buy a new one to hold the moose be brought back from Canada...

They would like people to get off their ass and do some research rather than bitching about it of these forums.
They already publish a huge book of regulations. How hard would it be to add a couple of sentences describing power factor requirements? I think that kind of omission is perfectly appropriate to bitch about. Especially when what they publish specifically addresses requirements for using handguns for big game hunting but leaves that out. It's almost misleading. Why would I expect them to have additional regulations that they didn't bother to print there? It's not like they were running short on space.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 23, 2009, 02:22 PM
I believe Washington State is an "open carry" state.

What I wrote is in the context of 'in the vehicle' regarding the pistol or rifle. I say this because the OP says he's hunted in Ohio, (I did not research Ohio law), and there are several states that allow loaded rifles in vehicles when hunting. Washington is not one of them. If you have a loaded pistol in your vehicle when driving to your hunt area, (or any other time), Open Carry does not apply. Unless it's sittin up on the dash board in plain view, it is then a concealed weapon. I'll bet that a HIGH percentage of firearms violations cited in Washington are from over zeallous conservation officers. I was trying to inform the OP about this so he doesn't do the wrong thing.

-Steve

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 23, 2009, 02:25 PM
I'm beginning to think they purposely make everything as confusing and difficult as they possibly can.

Oh, You've read the fishing regs too? :banghead:

-Steve

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 02:32 PM
Unless it's sittin up on the dash board in plain view, it is then a concealed weapon.
Even when it's up on the dash it's still in a vehicle. There's no mention of it being OK if it's in plain sight.

RCW 9.41.050 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050):
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 02:38 PM
And from your earlier post:
If you have a pistol loaded, keep it on your person and have a concealed weapons permit on you.

While keeping it on your person is usually a good policy, this is one part of this RCW that is often misunderstood. The important thing is that each of those conditions are separated by an implied "OR", as extrapolated from the "or" directly before item (iii).

If it had to be on the person, including both items (i) and (ii) would be redundant.

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 23, 2009, 02:51 PM
The difference there is that it's totally legal to have the pistol on the dash, if unloaded.

Unloaded on the person, covered by jacket or shirt, in our out of a vehicle, still a concealed weapon. Open carry does not apply.


Don't get knit picky with me! Reading my posts, it is quite simple to extrapolate that my intent was to inform the OP that rules are different in WA than many other states. -More than once I said that I am not an officer of the state. More than once I provide outlet for the information he needs.

This thread is way off topic. I'm done with it. I'f you'd like to continue this. Send me a PM.

-Steve

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 03:13 PM
The difference there is that it's totally legal to have the pistol on the dash, if unloaded.
There wasn't any mention of unloading the gun in your previous post.

Don't get knit picky with me!
When you're talking about hunting and firearms regulation, there's no such thing as being nitpicky, there's only accurate or not.

Reading my posts, it is quite simple to extrapolate that my intent was to inform the OP that rules are different in WA than many other states.
And my intent was to make clarifications to the parts you admitting to not fully understanding.

And as we're still informing the OP of the intricacies of carrying firearms (Kind of an integral activity to hunting), it's not completely off topic. Let's just return to both of us adding what information we know for the OPs benefit instead of getting all riled up.

Gryffydd
January 23, 2009, 03:38 PM
The only other thing I want to add--and this is somewhat offtopic--is that this vociferous hatred of the "assault rifle" in hunting is the same mindset that the anti's hold. There is no reason someone can't be a completely responsible hunter with an SKS. That includes using appropriate ammunition on appropriate game at appropriate distances with appropriate shot placement. Maybe they can only afford one rifle and want one that can fill more roles than a bolt action. Are there idiots out there who spray and pray with high capacity semi-autos? Yes. But that's not the gun's fault--that's the shooter.

dmazur
January 24, 2009, 03:48 AM
On the issue of carrying a concealed weapon (for protection) while hunting I believe this has been resolved in Oregon, but Washington is still waiting for a test case.

There probably isn't a problem as long as you're hunting "Modern Firearm", as there isn't any concern for misuse of the pistol (after all, you have a rifle...)

Personally, I'd love to see this resolved. I'm not a fan of laws that convict you before the act (sorry, I don't know the legal terminology.) By that I mean that carrying a concealed weapon, as long as it is consistent with State law, should not be abridged by additional game laws which assume you are going to misuse the weapon in the taking of game.

On the original topic of caliber restrictions, I remember game regulation pamphlets years ago (20 years?) mentioned minimum ft-lbs of energy for pistol calibers. I believe the .45 ACP didn't make it, but the .357 Mag did.

I agree that, if this is important to the State, you would think they could add that line back in the pamphlet text instead of concealing it in the "full regs" back in the office...

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
January 26, 2009, 12:44 PM
Here's the response:

Thank you for contacting WDFW regarding legal cartridges for hunting. Your e-mail has been referred to me for a response.

The short answer to your question is “No. There is no other form available.”

The complete (current) regulation is printed below for your information.

Your e-mail referred to the previous technical requirements which established different power threshold levels (e.g., 500 foot-pounds of energy or 750 foot-pounds of energy) that were in place until 2000. Those precise requirements were very effective but largely misunderstood by the hunting public. More importantly, they were unenforceable afield by our Fish and Wildlife Officers.

The current regulations provide hunters with a variety of potential choices but now place a real premium on hunter skill. The regulations below have been in force for more than eight years and to the best of my knowledge have not resulted in any enforcement problems afield. Sometimes people opine that the revised regulations create an opportunity for hunters to head afield with firearms ill-suited to the task; our experience to date does not support such speculation.

The vast majority of Washington’s hunters are ethical and responsible. The “one-shot kill” remains the goal for all ethical and responsible hunters. While some individuals do stray from the ethical and legal path, they would stray regardless of the regulations in force. The current regulations allow a modern rifle hunter to dispatch a mortally-wounded deer or elk with a .357 magnum (the “old” regulations did not allow that) and they also allow an experienced pistol shooter to use whatever common or wildcat cartridges they know are well-suited to the game pursued.

Mik Mikitik
Department of Fish and Wildlife
Enforcement Program
Hunter Education Division

WAC 232-12-047
Unlawful firearms for hunting.

(1) It is unlawful to hunt any big game with:

(a) A fully automatic firearm.

(b) A centerfire cartridge less than 22 caliber for cougar.

(c) A centerfire cartridge less than 24 caliber for any other big game.

(d) A shotgun, provided that a 20 gauge, or larger shotgun, using shells loaded with slugs or buckshot size #1 or larger, may be used to hunt deer, bear, and cougar.

(e) A shotgun for any other big game, except that a 12 gauge or 10 gauge shotgun using slugs may be used.

(f) A handgun that does not meet the following criteria: Have a minimum barrel length of four inches, per manufacturer's specification, and fire a centerfire cartridge.

(g) Any rimfire cartridge.

(2) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a shotgun capable of holding more than three shells.

(3) It is unlawful to hunt game birds or game animals, except bullfrogs, in a manner other than with a firearm, a bow and arrow, or by falconry, except persons with disabilities may use a crossbow with a special use permit as conditioned in WAC 232-12-054.

(4) It is unlawful to hunt game animals or game birds with a shotgun larger than 10 gauge.

(5) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a rifle or pistol, with the exception of blue grouse, spruce grouse and ruffed grouse.


-Steve

Mak92fs
February 24, 2009, 02:56 AM
Okay.....first of all! i wasnt asking about CC handguns when hunting...lol and i know that 7.62 by .39 isnt a IDEAL round....even though i have taken whitetail which from what ive seen so far ar bigger than the blacktails ive seen here so far i dont plan on that being what i use im just trying to figure out if what i have will work for the time being! Im just trying to figure out a gund to use that will work for big small and predetors here....prolly just go with 30-06 like i used to.....just because i like 7.62 commie doesnt mean im some punk little gangster you know?......and just to add....not to sound picky...but this post got HIJACKED!!!

thanks for the info...got hunting regs now

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
February 24, 2009, 03:28 PM
whats the requirment for pistol or rifle in washington state for hunting deer?

HiJacked? This is a discussion board. I answered your question to the best of my ability and even went out of my way to get you a more precise/vague answer from the state agency. Something you could have done on your own. Sure, a couple of us lent a bit of personal opinion. And also gave you some advise about pistola's when hunting and being in the vehicle just to be friendly to help you make the right choice since it appeared that you may not be completely familiar with Washington laws. Made no accusations about you being a punk or gangster.

30-06 will be a fine choice. 7.62x39 will be fine for shorter distances. But when you do come across that once in a lifetime Blacktail that does tip the scales at 300 pounds and is 200yds into that clearcut, I hope he lets out a grunt and trots away from your 7.62.

Happy friggin huntin!

-Steve

mio
February 24, 2009, 03:45 PM
here in northern michigan my wife uses a sks for whitetails (5rd mag limit) ive never seen a muley but it does work great on whitetails. she just stays within her limits. doesnt take shots over 100yrds (not that the oppertunity comes up often) and doesnt take bad shots where the deer is angling away or something similar.

i wouldnt shoot an elk with one.

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