[colorado_handgunner]

Went to try to buy .40S&W in Denver tonight. Of the three places I went, only one had any, but each box of 50 was $22 or more! :barf: I can get the exact same box in Colorado Springs for $12!!!:what::fire: This ammo shortage in some places is getting out of hand. I understand supply and demand (I am a business man myself), but almost 50% markup is gouging, I don't care how you try to justify it! :cuss: Anyone else have similar problems, agree?

[Duke of Doubt]

I suspect Denver rents and insurance are higher than in Colorado Springs.

[mr.scott]

That doesn't account for that much of a difference.
Are you sure the ammo you saw wasn't hollow points or something. I know I've been fooled byt the Winchester White Box hollow points before. I even got in an arguement at Wally World one night for being over charged for my ammo. (they had the JHP in the spot on the shelf for FMJ and neither I nor the cashier noticed the ammo type error. ( Well I didn't notice till I opened the box the next day).

[colorado_handgunner]

Hollow points were in the $34 range:barf:

[outerlimit]

Everything has been gouged for the past 6 months.

The biggest surprise to me, is that even with the economy the way it is, some people are still paying the gouge gun/ammo prices.

I'm just patiently waiting for it to all blow over.

[9mmepiphany]

i don't understand...is price gouging even possible in a free market?

price reflects demand. if the demand isn't there, the product won't sell. if you don't care to pay that price, you have the option of going elsewhere...or not buying, if you don't have the need

[outerlimit]

You're right, I guess it's an easier way of saying high prices. Price gouging occurs under certain circumstances, like a cornered market, but I don't think price gouging is the correct term to use in the current gun market.

[colorado_handgunner]

Technically, it may not be gouging since it is not a basic necessity in a time of emergency or crisis, however, it is blatantly unfair to consumers at the least. The suppliers cost to procure ammo has not doubled in the past three months. Therefore, there is not a justification for the doubling in retail prices but for greed. Do not quote the "rights of the merchant to profit." While it is a valid and completely true point in free market economics, in recent years customer retention in value has been shown to make far more economic sense in the long term. If I am remembering my business texts correctly, the cost to generate a new customer versus retaining an existing one is three times greater. Therefore, companies should not take advantage of their customers for short term profit; those customers will go elsewhere.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. :)

[jon_in_wv]

If you look at the prices of materials over the last few years I think for the most part the manufacturers have done a pretty good job of keeping prices down. The prices of Brass, Copper, Tin, etc.... have more than tripled in recent years.

[ljnowell]

Sounds like its time to start reloading out there in CO.

[Redhawk1]

If you don't like the prices, don't buy it. Look else where. You will always find one place higher in prices than in others. That is just the way it is.

Also do like I do, Reload.

But if you think the prices are high now, just wait, it is going to get worse.

[gunfire876]

My name is Marty, I work at Buds retail store. I checked on ammo prices to stock up and from our main ammo dist. 40 s&w was over $15.00 per box of 50(I think that was magtech). So I know everyone is mad about ammo prices (me included) but if anyone is gouging it isn't the dealers.So buy all the $12.00 stuff you can it won't be around long. I hope it comes back. We get blamed for gouging from time to time but then most of you realize that we don't.

[22lr]

Just stop buying and the price will go down. I dont care what your selling but if they can charge x amount for it and you pay, then its fine with me. Ya I dont like paying outrageous prices but I find alternatives. Reload, buy milsurp if you can find it (ive got about 400 round of 8mm from 1942, paid about $.10 a round VS a $1 a piece for new commercial loads).

And ya retail shops are paying more for there supply to so......

[Mello]

Try to come up with a logical definition of gouging.

Thank capitalism for allocating resources. Just think what would happen to supply if the seller did not raise prices as demand went up and supply either remained the same or lessened. Some one would go in and buy 10 boxes at $12 instead of 5 boxes at $24 ($120 for either purchase). That means that there would be less boxes for the remaining buyers.

Supply and demand

[Big Bill]

colorado - I agree that gouging is occuring. I've had to resort to buying online and have still found some good deals there.

[H2O MAN]

Price Gouging

It ain't gouging if you willingly pay the asking price...

[ljnowell]

It ain't gouging if you willingly pay the asking price...

You have to be forced to pay the price for it to be gouging. Therefore, unless it is something that you have to have to survive you cant really be price gouged on anything. One of the few items that comes to mind is gas, thats one they can screw you on, cause you aint getting by without it.

[Isher]

Economics 101.........

Ammunition, after all, is a commodity. When demand is high, and the supply chain doesn't have the required capacity to meet the demand, a situation of relative scarcity occurs, causing prices to rise.

This is true on two fronts at present; the cost of materials used for ammunition (call that Scarcity Issue I), and of course, the ammunition itself (Scarcity Issue II).

It ain't gouging, just good old fashioned capitalism.

isher

[Dravur]

it is blatantly unfair to consumers at the least

then it is time for the opening of the Hissy fit!


Simply put... if you don't like the price... don't buy it. If someone does like the price.... they will buy it

Whew, that was a tough one. I almost had to get the Econ 101 book out to solve that mystery.

[Gunfighter123]

OH -- I see , it's not gouging. Sorta like when gasoline was over $4.00 a gal. two months ago ????

[Isher]

Here are arguments from "both sides of the aisle", as it were:

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2006/06/rebuttal-to-gouging-market.html

http://www.progressive.org/mag_comm0606

By the way, as regards the precipitous fall of both both wholesale crude prices and pump prices

Over the last couple months:

Guess what? Demand has dropped like a rock. Worldwide.

Commodity markets are like that.


isher

[DocBoCook]

exactly. then the companys realized they were about to collapse the economy. All of a sudden, "oh, wait maybe we should lower the gas prices before america is crippled and we don't have our consumers anymore" and then all of a sudden, the price of a barrel of oil dropped and so did gas prices to a price that existed more than 5 years ago. Tell me suppliers aren't controlling the market AND supply to gouge the price

[Isher]

Yup.


That is called the market. And, by the way, I think we import something

Like 60% of our oil from offshore.

Now, if you want to think out of the box..........

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/07/08/pickens.plan/index.html


isher

[ljnowell]

OH -- I see , it's not gouging. Sorta like when gasoline was over $4.00 a gal. two months ago ????

You have to be forced to pay the price for it to be gouging. Therefore, unless it is something that you have to have to survive you cant really be price gouged on anything. One of the few items that comes to mind is gas, thats one they can screw you on, cause you aint getting by without it.


I guess you didnt bother reading what other people had posted before getting emotionally upset and posting.

[9mmepiphany]

OH -- I see , it's not gouging. Sorta like when gasoline was over $4.00 a gal. two months ago ????

and yet you continued to pay it...or did you take some action to affect the price, like drive less, car pool or drive a more efficient vehicle. or maybe take a real leap and use public transit, bicycle or walk more

[D!rty H@rry]

screw it!

[gglass]

The price gouging (I will call it that) is worse than some have imagined. Not only have we seen prices on 50 count boxes going up all over the country, but there is a more unsettling trend going on simultaneously. We are also seeing a trend in repackaging from 50 count to 20/25 count boxes... These smaller boxes of ammo cost nearly as much as the larger ones, which is a MAJOR price hike on top of the more obvious price increase.

The original reason for raising prices of ammunition was the cost of metals and transportation. The cost of metal has been in a free fall since the economic downturn began and likewise transportation costs, thus prices should be coming down. The latest reason is supply and demand. This could not be more false. Where it would be true that an ammunition manufacturer who has limited capacity and resources might have to raise their costs when demand exceeds that capacity, another manufacturer would be able to lower prices due to being able to better utilize their potential capacity. Any reason for demand-based price hikes has more to do with the increased raw materials costs, and those raw material costs are currently going down.

I would put forth that there seems to be more sinister forces at play in the ammunition marketplace.... Profiteering and possibly even collusion. I can see where manufacturers would have a tendency to raise prices during times of high-demand to make hay while the sun shines. But, that does not explain how they are all making moves simultaneously. as that can only happen when a basic cost of doing business happens across the board. I find it easier to believe that the top executives of the ammunition company had a meeting of the minds within the last year to engineer a price hike. Does that sound unrealistic. Just look at the many cases of collusion in the tech industry in the past few years. (The latest examples of tech industry collusion: memory and LCD panel manufacturers)

I am not usually a conspiracy theory kind of guy, but what is happening in the ammunition market defies reason. It just isn't possible that a spike in demand without a spike in raw materials costs can cause the kind of price gouging seen today.

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

Just picked up 3 boxes of PMC .45 acp $23.95 per box.

[Mello]

DocBoCook

exactly. then the companys realized they were about to collapse the economy. All of a sudden, "oh, wait maybe we should lower the gas prices before america is crippled and we don't have our consumers anymore" and then all of a sudden, the price of a barrel of oil dropped and so did gas prices to a price that existed more than 5 years ago. Tell me suppliers aren't controlling the market AND supply to gouge the price

Doc you have confused cause and effect.

The increase in price was the effect of the demand for the product as was the fall in price. Energy prices were not the cause of this economic downturn.

The primary cause was the federal government.
Look into the Community Reinvestment Act which was passed under Pres. Carter and under Clinton was greatly expanded. Also, look at what the Democrats passed as laws to enable Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy up those bad loans and securitize them. This led to trillions of dollars in bad mortgage securities around the world.

The politicians will not address the causes of the problem with the proposed rescue plan.

1) liberal philosophy supplanting capitalism with mandates on financial institutions to make bad loans.
2) granting the power to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to securitize bad loan so that those securities appear better than they are (fraud) and legislating protect for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae from fraud.
3) the Democrats received the majority of the benefits from this scheme so they protected it when Republican sough more control over Fannie and Freddie in 2003, 2004, 2005.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_1_the_trillion_dollar.html

An article by Howard Husock from the winter of 2000 that warned of the trouble that the Community Reinvestment Act expansion under Clinton would cause and pointing out that the Clinton administration was making the Community Reinvestment Act into "into one of the most powerful mandates shaping American cities—and, as Senate Banking Committee chairman Phil Gramm memorably put it, a vast extortion scheme against the nation's banks."

It goes on to explain how the CRA has become the tool of left-wing activist groups such as the Boston-based Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America (NACA) and ACORN. In mid-1999, 8.2 percent of the mortgages NACA had arranged with the Fleet Bank were delinquent, compared with the national average of 1.9 percent.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A257...

A 9/11/2003 N.Y. Times article New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae By STEPHEN LABATON
"The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago." The proposal focused on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
"Among the groups denouncing the proposal today were the National Association of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing."

The Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 was co-sponsored by McCain. It sought to increase regulation of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and to change operating procedures.

I do not see how the politicians in Washington can possible remedy the problem when they won't recognize that they are the cause. Here we have a classic example of what happens when liberal philosophy supplants capitalism.


. . . . And that is just what I found in a few hours of searching the web.

[pith43]

I love all the people who bitch and moan about price gouging, beceause non-essential items are too high. You do realize, don't you, that if you purchased any item at that price level, that you are agreeing that it's the price the item is worth.

[CoRoMo]

You'd be better off not to do business with me then.
When my business is in high demand, guess what... my prices are higher.

[LightningMan]

The only real place I've seen price gouging is at gunshows. I can still go to Wally-World & get BlazerBrass 50ct boxes of .45 acp for $14.99 or the 100ct Win. white box for $29.97. Also have 9mm too for $19.99 and Fed. bulk .22 ammo for $13.97 per 550ct. LM

[Zundfolge]

Go to Borders and pick up Thomas Sowell's "Basic Economics" and "Applied Economics" read them and then repeat after me;

There is no such thing as price gouging.
There is no such thing as price gouging.
There is no such thing as price gouging.



EDIT
Here, this will save you some trouble, its a column Sowell did on price gouging. (http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2004/09/14/price_gouging_in_florida)
And another. (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzY3N2IyNWZkZjE0ZmU0Y2QyMDgyOTIwMTVlZGY2MzI=)
And yet another. (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-11_15_05_TS2.html)
And here Walter E Williams does a real good job explaining it too. (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/06/prices.html)
And some more Walter (can never have too much Walter). (http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2005/09/14/the_role_of_prices)


Just keep in mind that the very same people that want to take your guns away from you "for your own good" also want to take away the benefits of Free Market Capitalism under the guise that they're protecting you from the liabilities of FMC and they're doing it for the same reason as guns; control.

[lanternlad1]

"But if you think the prices are high now, just wait, it is going to get worse."

Therein is the one good reason for Barack Obama. So focused is he on undoing all that Bush has done, he is REALLY pushing for the troops to be withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan. When troops come home, so does their ammo, and a lot of it makes its way into our markets as military surplus. Then, supply exceeds demand, and prices come down. At least, that's what I'm hoping for.

[Zundfolge]

Therein is the one good reason for Barack Obama. So focused is he on undoing all that Bush has done, he is REALLY pushing for the troops to be withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan. When troops come home, so does their ammo, and a lot of it makes its way into our markets as military surplus. Then, supply exceeds demand, and prices come down. At least, that's what I'm hoping for.

Its a win-win.

We get cheaper ammo, we also get a mushroom cloud over Manhattan (assuming the troops come home before their work is done).

[wep45]

if you want your toys bad enuff........pay for it and move on:neener:

[CoRoMo]

When troops come home, so does their ammo, and a lot of it makes its way into our markets as military surplus. Then, supply exceeds demand, and prices come down.

Good, I can't wait to pick up that surplus .357 magnum stock.
I could also use more 30-30 hunting rounds too.
Bring home them boys now!:rolleyes:

[Isher]

"But if you think the prices are high now, just wait, it is going to get worse."

Therein is the one good reason for Barack Obama. So focused is he on undoing all that Bush has done, he is REALLY pushing for the troops to be withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan. When troops come home, so does their ammo, and a lot of it makes its way into our markets as military surplus. Then, supply exceeds demand, and prices come down. At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
__________________
Barack Obama is the best gun salesman since Oliver Winchester.

.............It will be marketed under the brand name of ......

(drumroll, here)........OBAMMO!


isher

[ljnowell]

Good, I can't wait to pick up that surplus .357 magnum stock.
I could also use more 30-30 hunting rounds too.
Bring home them boys now!


If I were a guessing man I would guess that the war could be responsible for those calibers too. Its a distinct possibility that there are less of those calibers being manufactured to keep up pace with 9mm, 5.56, etc.

[Dravur]

Seriously.... Econ training... get some....

Some of the hysterical rantings here are just too much. Oh no, prices have gone up! It must be a conspiracy! Why, Aliens and the FDIC are working to bring about higher ammo prices!

The sky is falling, the sky is FALLING! Look! over there! a peice of the sky is on the ground.

[texas bulldog]

zundfolge--

thanks for the reading...i followed each link. i wish some more members would do a little reading on economics. the term 'price gouging' really needs to get dropped from our collective vocabulary.

[DocBoCook]

everyone should just stop buying. All the sites are sold out, the stores are sold out of the economical loads/brands. we need to make a stand and make the demand less so the supply will grow.

[babarracing]

I live in CO but I can't find 45 acp Personal Protection ammo :banghead:or dies or presses or bullets in Loveland or FT. Collins.

[jeff-10]

Don't think of it as price gouging. Consider it permanent price increases for 2009. :evil:

[Badlander]

After hurricane Francise I looked for A generator for 4 days. I finally found some guys selling new $500 generators for $700. I was thrilled to find them.
As soon as I had paid for it A cop asked me what I was doing. I told him I had just bought A generator. He said no I had not, made the guy give me back my money and arrested him for gouging.
At that time I thought it A fair price. the guy filled A tractor trailer full of scarce goods, hauled them interstate to make some money.
If you want something you must pay the going price. generators or ammo. no difference!!
I went 2 more days without power or water because of thay cop.:cuss:

[ultradoc]

Talk about price gouging. Look at hotel/motel prices for Sturgis,S.D. during the motorcycle rally. But if you want something bad enough you will pay it [or try to].

[againstthagrane]

everytime someone posts a "gouging" thread, there are a bunch of people who start a semantics battle.

technically it's not gouging because ammo is not a basic need like water or milk or soap. it is a sign of shady business practices and greed. a lot of people try to use the free market BS argument to defend it. yeah it's a free market, but using fear and panic to fuel prices is not commendable and if i were you i would NEVER buy anything from that shop again. speak with your dollars. i've boycotted one such gun store in the area already. they were trying to charge $2800 for a ps90!!! that's not high, that's INSANE!

these price HIKERS need a swift kick in the nuts.

[againstthagrane]

everyone should just stop buying. All the sites are sold out, the stores are sold out of the economical loads/brands. we need to make a stand and make the demand less so the supply will grow.

the voice of reason.

[Mello]

againstthagrane
everytime someone posts a "gouging" thread, there are a bunch of people who start a semantics battle.

"In linguistics, semantics is the subfield that is devoted to the study of meaning, as inherent at the levels of words, phrases, sentences, and even larger units of discourse (referred to as texts)." (Wikipedia)

When people use words to express an emotion rather than the ration meaning of the word, the word loses meaning. Example of words and phrases that are misused to evoke emotion rather than understanding: gouging, greed, greedy, rich, gun control, just to cite a few. In the common usage promoted my the lamestream media these words no longer have meaning. They are used to provoke anger, fear and envy (emotion).

The written and spoken language is an attempt to communicate. To that end it is best to do so clearly to avoid confusion. That is why it is important to observe personal responsibility and self-discipline.

Beware of those who use words to evoke your emotions to defeat your reason.

[againstthagrane]

the grammar police strike again.

[zxcvbob]

If you look at the prices of materials over the last few years I think for the most part the manufacturers have done a pretty good job of keeping prices down. The prices of Brass, Copper, Tin, etc.... have more than tripled in recent years.

Materials cost and energy costs are *way* down again. But maybe the way manufacturers kept prices reasonable during the run-up was to hedge on the metals prices (buy futures contracts to lock in prices) They may still be paying high materials prices while those contracts unwind. (kind of like the airlines are having to do now with fuel prices they locked in last fall.)

Eventually it will work itself out, but don't look for prices to drop to where they were 3 years ago -- just because high prices are "sticky". Anyone else notice that Berry's got rid of their lead surcharge (when the bottom fell out of lead prices) but they increased their prices to lock in most of it?

[orionengnr]

Yep, a lot of people need to spend one semester in college. An Econ 101 class will provide some perspective. It will probably cost you about what 100 rounds of ammo cost, but will last a lifetime.

or did you take some action to affect the price, like drive less, car pool or drive a more efficient vehicle. or maybe take a real leap and use public transit, bicycle or walk more?
I was preaching this to co-workers who were bitching about gas prices two-three years ago. (FWIW, I ride a motorcycle, and have for almost 40 years.) Why did the price of gas finally crumble? Because demand dropped suddenly. People got out of their Yukons and the price of used Priuses was higher than the cost of a new one (which you could not find to save your life).

Same principles apply to ammo. The prices are high, but people keep buying. A recent statement on another thread (paraprased): "The number of cases of ammo leaving the gun show on hand trucks is absolutely mind-numbing". Last three gun shows I have attended, this has been the case. Demand is at an all-time high. To expect prices to be otherwise is to ignore reality.

Want to see prices drop? Quit panic buying, and see if you can convince everyone else to do likewise. Good luck; let me know how it works out.

I have not bought a round of loaded ammo in close to two years (.22 and carry ammo excepted). It's known as practicing what you preach. :)

[Gunfighter123]

Rich ---- thanks for the polite PM.
I hope you and your family have a Happy and Healthy New Year.
Take care Pal --- Jerry



Edit --- BTW , I have not bought ANY loaded ammo {except .22s} in over 10 years ----- I reload 32Longs,32Mag,38spl,357mag,10mm , 40S&W,44spl,44mag,45acp,45AR , .223,308,45/70 and 12ga.

Those "gougers"ain't getting rich off me !!!!! LOL

[Gunfighter123]

9mmepiphany
Senior Member



Join Date: 12-27-02
Location: northern california
Posts: 1,660 Quote:
OH -- I see , it's not gouging. Sorta like when gasoline was over $4.00 a gal. two months ago ????

and yet you continued to pay it...or did you take some action to affect the price, like drive less, car pool or drive a more efficient vehicle. or maybe take a real leap and use public transit, bicycle or walk more
__________________


Nope --- didn't do ANY of the above, I just started robbing gas stations at gunpoint to be able to pay those GOUGER prices !!!!

BTW --- I drive a 1997 chevy lumina, WHAT about YOU ???

[9mmepiphany]

for what it's worth...i drive a 2002 Mazda Protege 5 which was getting 29 mpg the last time i filled up.

...but then i'm not complaining, nor do i mis-use the word gouging. when gas was expensive i drove less and biked more

[jpalmer24]

Well here in Mississippi hollow points are running about 22.00 (federal), I paid around 16.00 for a box of 50 FMJ (Blazers) for s&w .40cal and that was all they had. Man this sucks. A friend of mine works for a sporting goods store and he's the the guy who communicates with the vendors and stuff and according to him this shortage should be lifted in the next couple of months. Hopefully the prices come down aswell.

[9mmepiphany]

they way to force the prices down is to not buy at the inflated prices. why would they lower prices if they are selling all they can get at the higher price?

[Dodahdude]

Rule number one. #1. Supply and demand.

[telomerase]

50% markup is gouging, I don't care how you try to justify it!

This is the same nonsense we hear from people who don't bother to stock up for their family before a hurricane, and then complain about the entrepreneurs who organize their last-minute demands for water, food, generators, DVDs, etc.

It's only "gouging" if you're forced to pay it (e.g., the many government-granted monopolies, electricity, cable TV, etc.). If you think the price is "too high", then you have a wonderful opportunity to run out and risk your own money in an ammo business... but of course you don't, because you're afraid you'd be put out of business and lose it all.

And you'd be right to worry :uhoh:

[Gun Slinger]

Hilarious topic. Hilarious thread.

[Isher]

Alright -

Now to throw some more gasoline on the flames,

Not with the intention generally accorded to

Your typical pyromaniac (read troll)

But an actual search for the truth of the matter.

Anyone care to throw out two definitions which

Distinctively separate "gouging"

From "hoarding?

By the way, the rules of the road here are Econ 101 only.

isher

[9mmepiphany]

isn't "hoarding" a negative spin put on "being prepared" by people who didn't?

...oh, and not sharing with the unprepared too

[pith43]

isn't "hoarding" a negative spin put on "being prepared" by people who didn't?

...oh, and not sharing with the unprepared too

Don't you know that there's no need to hoard, it's the goverment's job to take care of us (tongue firmly implanted in cheek).

[9mmepiphany]

there is an alternative to hoarding, while still being prepared...but "looting" also has a distasteful ring to it

[1858rem]

OH -- I see , it's not gouging. Sorta like when gasoline was over $4.00 a gal. two months ago ????

and yet you continued to pay it...or did you take some action to affect the price, like drive less, car pool or drive a more efficient vehicle. or maybe take a real leap and use public transit, bicycle or walk more i started ridin a motercykel:D...28 degrees is cold but doable lol:cool:

[TBT]

http://gun-deals.com/ammo
Choose the round you are looking for and check out the deals. It even breaks it down at cost per round that even includes shipping. Pretty sweet site I thought.