[SN13]

Guys, what advantages do Tube Fed Pumps and Autos have over the Saiga-12?

I'm genuinely curious as to what scenarios or situations in which a Tube-Fed shotgun would have a distinct advantage.

Some of my thoughts:

Light loads (Rubber Buck/beanbags) won't cycle the gas action so are better through a Pump.

Transitioning to a slug or two is easier when you can top off a tube.

Shooting prone or low to the ground without having a long mag hanging off is better. You can get lower with a Tube-Fed.

Please respond with any other situations that you can think of.

Thanks!

~SN

[hankdatank1362]

Shooting prone or low to the ground without having a long mag hanging off is better. You can get lower with a Tube-Fed.



Tilt the gun 90 degrees to the right.

[WardenWolf]

Light loads will cycle in a Saiga 12 with the proper gas setting, unless you're running extremely light. In that case, you COULD just get a lighter recoil spring for it. There's various people who can make them. Changing out the recoil spring takes less than 1 minute and no tools. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from just racking the action manually, which isn't that different than a pump.

Changing mags on a Saiga is faster than stuffing a round into a tube, and mags can be color-coded for ammo type. Saiga mags are fairly compact.

Saigas are extremely light, and have lower felt recoil. They're about half a pound lighter than a Remington 1100.

Standard Saiga mags are very short, and with the pistol grip stock do not really interfere with shooting prone.

Saigas can be fully disassembled for cleaning. Compare that to many classic American shotguns such as the Remington 1100 that have many parts that get dirty but cannot be cleaned. The sealed one-piece receiver design of most American shotguns is a major flaw.

Honestly, I think the benefits far outweigh any potential drawbacks. In terms of longevity, because they CAN be fully disassembled, and because the parts are made to military specs, it should last longer than just about anything else. In terms of utility, they are a lot more versatile overall. You're not going to need a gunsmith to tinker with your Saiga. They're AK-pattern. They're designed to be worked on and designed to be ultra-reliable.

[SN13]

Thanks for the responses, but I'm really interested in why the Tube-Fed Pumps and autos are BETTER than the Saiga-12.

[WardenWolf]

Honestly, they're not. They're just different. About the only thing I can really think of is that it's easier to plug a tube magazine than a Saiga mag. Although proper hunting-capacity mags are available. Comparing a standard shotgun to a Saiga is comparing apples to oranges: they're both fruit, but they're completely different. They're both shotguns, but they're nothing alike. It mostly comes down to personal preference.

[SuperNaut]

Saiga 12 Negatives OTTOMH

1. Lack of good choke and barrel options

2. Conversion to PG is expensive and destructive (meaning it isn't a simple parts swap)

3. Short, high sight radius (w/stock bead)

4. Limited stock options for unconverted models

5. Inspires instant inspection by fish cops

Pumps don't have any of these drawbacks.

[SN13]

SuperNaut, Thanks for your contributions.

[Ben Shepherd]

If you lose or break your mag, it turns into a PITA to load single shot.

[lipadj46]

A properly vented Saiga will cycle any round you put in it but many Saigas come out of the factory with misaligned, missing or blocked gas vent holes. RAA will replace any of these "vodka specials" or fix them no questions asked. Ask me how I know.

If you are talking negatives. I would say:

1) No last round bolt hold open
2) Poor quality control (see comment above, aka Vodka Specials)
3) They look evil and out of place to many hunters and sportsman.
4) I guess with the long mags shooting prone is harder but I prefer the 5 round mags anyways for weight issues. The drums are fine for prone.
5) No changing your next round or topping off
6) Optic mounting requires a side mount or mounting on the gas tube.

Some positives:

1) Stupid reliability once the bugs are worked out they are used by russian military and security forces.
2) Magazine capacity and reload time unmatched by tube fed shotty's
3) Same capacity for 2 3/4 and 3" shells
4) A full choke complement plus the adjustable polychoke is offered.
5) Very light recoil
6) Very easy maintenance. I can field strip my Saiga 12 in under 10 seconds add 20 more to open up the gas system.

[lipadj46]

If you lose or break your mag, it turns into a PITA to load single shot.

People carry multiple mags so I don't think really matters, anyways a magazine tube has parts that can in theory break also. If that was really a concern our M16's would be tube fed no?

[SuperNaut]

1) No last round bolt hold open
5) No changing your next round or topping off


Oh yeah, no LRBHO and no topping off. Not having those does suck, good catch.
6) Optic mounting requires a side mount or mounting on the gas tube.

I thought about this too for my list, but I can't think of why I'd want an optic on an S12. Doesn't mean there isn't a good reason, I just can't think of one. :)

Some positives:
4) A full choke complement plus the adjustable polychoke is offered.

I've had the choke set on order for over a year. AFAIAC they don't actually exist

[JImbothefiveth]

I think the advantage of a regular shotgun would be that you can add a couple of rounds without having to unload the gun, or leave it with just one round of ammo. Also, if you don't have additional magazines for the saiga, a regular shotgun would be easier to reload from a box of ammo. Finally, there's also the concern that saiga magazines might warp the shotgun shells, making them unable to feed.

Also, if you ever want to hunt migratory birds, I don't think there are 2 round magazines available for the saiga.

[rcmodel]

Don't forget, a covey of quail would get plumb out of range while you were trying to get the AK style safety off with both hands!

Not to mention trying to hit one with the almost non-existent sight radius.

rc

[redneckrepairs]

Why NOT a Saiga-12? simply because for me and many like me it does not meet our price point ., By no means is it a bad gun imho , however in all fairness i have several rifles ande an 1100 lol

[Ben Shepherd]

It's not a gun for fowls or clays, that's for sure.

And as for optics? In a serious situation(especially in low light), a good red dot may just be the cats meow.

People carry multiple mags so I don't think really matters, anyways a magazine tube has parts that can in theory break also. If that was really a concern our M16's would be tube fed no?

True. But that's another drawback, extra mags are EXPENSIVE.

[Guero4179]

Traditional shotguns are faster than any other weapon
The Saiga 12 has AK ergonomics, in other words they suck.
Traditional shotguns can be reloaded while firing so they never run dry.
Traditional shotguns can be fired prone or at flying targets
Traditional shotguns would not have a lot of crap hanging off them or sharp edges to snag.
Weight.
Legislation, Saigas could be banned in months. Where are you going to get parts then?

[-v-]

I've heard over time, plastic shells stored in a Siaga magazine will begin to flatten due to spring pressure. A tubular shotgun does not have this issue.

That and the 1100/M3/930 are militarized sporting shotgun whereas the Saiga 12 is a sportarized purpose-built combat shotgun, in my view.

[rcmodel]

A tubular shotgun does not have this issue.Yes they do.

They don't get flatter though.
They get shorter and bigger around.

rc

[SuperNaut]

FYI, the way I avoid shell deformation in my S12 is to keep the bolt locked back w/full mag inserted. If something goes bump in the night, just nudge the charging handle.

[lipadj46]

I thought about this too for my list, but I can't think of why I'd want an optic on an S12. Doesn't mean there isn't a good reason, I just can't think of one

I should have a Kobra red dot on mine next week.

I've had the choke set on order for over a year. AFAIAC they don't actually exist

People over on the Saga 12 board claim to have them so who knows. I'm thinking of picking up a poly choke myself.

True. But that's another drawback, extra mags are EXPENSIVE.

You can get 5 round mags for $20 that work as well as the factory mags. The 10 round magazines are $45.

I've heard over time, plastic shells stored in a Siaga magazine will begin to flatten due to spring pressure.

I store mine with the bolt open. If I need it I just drop the bolt. It's just the top round on a closed bolt so some people use a brass shell as their 1st round.

The Saiga 12 has AK ergonomics, in other words they suck.

Stock Saigas have a regular hunting stock and I have not really noticed the difference between my winchester shotgun ergonomics wise.

[Gunfighter123]

Other then THE WAY THEY LOOK there is really no good reason NOT TO OWN A S-12 !!!!! LOL

"Light loads (Rubber Buck/beanbags) won't cycle the gas action so are better through a Pump."

Saiga,Remington,Winchester etc. etc. ---- from the factory , almost no semi-auto will work with under powered loads as will a Pumpgun.

"Transitioning to a slug or two is easier when you can top off a tube."

Not really --- if you have extra mags {as every S-12 owner should} you can "top off" with a full mag of Buck,Slugs,beanbag rds. etc. in the time it takes to load one/two rds. into a tube.


"Shooting prone or low to the ground without having a long mag hanging off is better. You can get lower with a Tube-Fed."

As already said , tilt the SG or use a drum or 5 rd. mag. --- also there is a doublestack mag in the works that holds 10rds. but is almost the same length as a 5 rd.

There are many after market items for the S-12s planned or already being made. A extended mag release , extended safety , forearm rails.

Saigas are not perfect as they come from the factory. Lucky for us the "small gun cottage industry" is alive and well !!!!

[FSJeeper]

I own pumps, semiautos and saigas. Right now, my go to HD weapon is the Benelli tactical because it is dead reliable, accurate, and I can top up from the bottom very fast when needs.

My most fun shotguns are the 2 saiga 12's. I bout 5 10 round mags for them and have 2 20 round drums on order. Saiga 12's are the number one pick for Russian countrys for their swat like teams. In Europe and in some places in the states the Saiga is winning skeet and sporting clay events. The design of the factory stock is perfect and I do not know why someone would want to convert it to the ak 47 style. With a polychoke, it will do what ever you ask of it with dead reliabilty. As I get to know the guns better and the reliabilily of the 20 round drum proves out, then thjis my become my go to HD defense gun. They are totally reliable

[lipadj46]

The design of the factory stock is perfect and I do not know why someone would want to convert it to the ak 47 style

Believe me the russians do not use a Saiga like ours, theirs is in the AK format plus they get optic rails, real adjustable sights and a magwell.

Oh yeah I forgot to add above the Saiga 12 stock trigger SUCKS really bad and the only way to solve the problem is to convert it and move the FCG back to where it is supposed to be. That is why I plan to have mine converted. Do you see those rigged up linkages in order for the trigger to be so far back? It adds all kinds of creep. And people like the overall shorter length. Honestly I don't mind the original configuration but the trigger is really subpar.

[SN13]

OK, some good stuff. But why do people cling to their Tube Feeders if Saigas are so superior?

[olyeller]

because they are still beaten on a regular basis by good semis like benellis at practical shotgun tournaments.

[Girodin]

The design of the factory stock is perfect and I do not know why someone would want to convert it to the ak 47 style

You clearly have not shot exemplars of each. The configuration we get exists solely for legal reasons. A converted saiga has better balance, the safety can be reached without moving ones hand from the grip or having ET fingers, the trigger is vastly better, and the conversion makes higher capacity mags legal (this could be done with the factory stock though). These are a few reasons that come to mind immediately. For some cosmetics is a big reason but that is personal preference.

[Lawnman380]

I like all my Saiga's, the 12 is fun to shoot. For me it's function over form, %100 all the time. My other shotguns are mossberg

[lipadj46]

OK, some good stuff. But why do people cling to their Tube Feeders if Saigas are so superior?

They are more traditional and have been around a lot longer. Plus I am not sure they are superior or anyone is claiming that. They are good in there own ways and offer things that other shotguns cannot. But there are definitely shortcomings and unfortunately we don't get the next generation Saigas or other Russian military shotguns that fix many of these problems..

[SN13]

That's what I want to address, the shortcomings. What are they?

[lipadj46]

I count at least 15 items people listed against the Saiga what more are you looking for us to destroy our Saigas and swear a blood oath to pump shotties? :evil:

[MCgunner]

Guys, what advantages do Tube Fed Pumps and Autos have over the Saiga-12?

I'm genuinely curious as to what scenarios or situations in which a Tube-Fed shotgun would have a distinct advantage.

When the game warden checks you, he won't write you a ticket....if you've properly plugged the magazine. I'm not sure how you'd plug a Saiga or if maybe you could get a 2 round magazine. But, I like normal guns, anyway. :D Yeah, I'm a "fudd". Live with it. :neener:

[SuperNaut]

The mag is easy to plug (I plugged one of mine) and you can theoretically get plugged mags from the factory. But as I mentioned earlier, if you have a pump, a fish cop's probably not going to give you a second look. You have an AK? Yeah, he's gonna hassle you.

[lipadj46]

They make a 2 round magazine but you can permanently plug a Saiga magazine like any other removable magazine. I don't hunt on public property anymore so my chances of running into a DEC officer is nil but if I were to hunt on public land I would take my 870..

[chris in va]

Going out on a limb here, but...

Considering that it's an AK action, I would think you could fire hundreds of shells and not need a cleaning compared to the 'normal' semiauto types like the 1100.

But I don't have first hand experience with the 12, just my Saiga in x39.

[Ben Shepherd]

Chris- True. I've seen well over 1,000 rounds down the bore of a certain s-12 I know of(NOT mine) without a good cleaning.

[rcmodel]

I don't hunt on public property anymore so my chances of running into a DEC officer is nilSO, it's O.K. to break the Federal game laws as long as you don't get caught?

rc

[MCgunner]

I think he's referring to the comment that you'll get hassled with an AK action shotgun., not to the 3 round requirement. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt, but that's how I read it.

With the Winchester 1400, the GWs smile and don't bother checkin'. It only holds two in the mag in the first place. It is also the most natural pointing shotgun I've ever picked up that was right out of the box. I'm not real sure how Saiga's balance, either, not ever having shouldered one. They are interesting guns and might be fun to own and don't break the bank, or didn't last I looked at 'em before the election:rolleyes:, so I've warmed a little to them. They, like the Winchester, don't have very good ergos either from what I can tell, though, for a lefty. Is the safety on the side of the thing like an AK? I'd think that'd be really stupid to use in the field. I'd rather have a crossbolt than that. I prefer tang safeties like my Mossberg, though.

[lipadj46]

SO, it's O.K. to break the Federal game laws as long as you don't get caught?

There is nothing illegal about hunting with a Saiga 12 plugged to the proper # of shells. You can step down from the soapbox or get down off your cross which ever suits you best. Thank You.

[lipadj46]

With the Winchester 1400, the GWs smile and don't bother checkin'. It only holds two in the mag in the first place. It is also the most natural pointing shotgun I've ever picked up that was right out of the box. I'm not real sure how Saiga's balance, either, not ever having shouldered one. They are interesting guns and might be fun to own and don't break the bank, or didn't last I looked at 'em before the election

Funny I traded my 1400 for the Saiga. My 1400 must be the only one in existence that took 3 shells in the magazine, always wondered about that. Anyhow I did not like the 1400 for a number of reasons so I was glad to get rid of it. That said I never had a problem with it, I did not like the alloy receiver and it was a bit clunky when compared to other similar auto loaders.

[waterhouse]

Changing mags on a Saiga is faster than stuffing a round into a tube

This may be the case, but it means you have to carry a lot of mags or spend time reloading them.

For example, in a duck blind, I can fire twice, and quickly stuff 2 shells in the tube, and I'm back to the three I started at, all with my firing hand still ready to go if another bird comes in.

To do the same with a Saiga, I'd have to have a stack of 2 round magazines set up, or I'd have to drop the mag, put a new one in, and probably use both hands to reload the mag I just took out. Plus I'd have to keep up with a magazine in a duck blind, which seems like it would quickly end up in the water or the mud. I've fumbled shells into the water and mud as well, but even at today's shell prices it's a cheaper loss than a Saiga mag.

OK, some good stuff. But why do people cling to their Tube Feeders if Saigas are so superior?

Hunting and clay games, or at least those are a couple reasons. Saigas have a lot going for them in the tactical world and in many gun games, but high capacity detachable magazines are far less important in hitting flying birds or clays than how the gun fits, swings, and balances, especially since laws and rules tend to limit the number of shells you can use.


Different tools for different jobs.

[lipadj46]

The only hunting my Saiga will see is deer and turkey hunting. They are well suited to this kind of hunting. Duck and bird hunting not so much I will take out my 870 then with a longer barrel.

[Girodin]

For example, in a duck blind, I can...

Saigas are not really meant for the duck blind IMO. I do not believe most people buy saigas for wing shooting. It is a good point however. The shortcomings of a various weapon depend on what task is being discussed.

[MCgunner]

Yup, why I don't own one. Too narrow focused and i really have no interest in tactical shotguns. I hunt birds, 'tis what I do. The OP should specify the USE of the gun. Seems someone has already mentioned that tac reloads (topping off) during a fight is a lot easier with the tube magazine. And, how many of us get up and put on our tactical vest with magazines when we go check out that bump in the night. Of course, I usually have a handgun to check for bumps, but I'm just sayin'.

Still, I don't think the Saiga would be a bad hunting shotgun, even a wing shooting gun, if it weren't for the ergos of the safety and if it balances okay and ain't too heavy. I've really not looked in to that. I don't need a deer gun, hunt with handguns or rifles. I don't need a turkey gun. If I get a chance to hunt turkey, it'll be with my 10 gauge. 1 shot equals 3 from a Saiga....:neener:

[ByAnyMeans]

I would say a Pump is best but that's because I was able to get two Winchester 1300 speed pumps in 18in 7+1 and 26in. 5+1 with multi choke. I also got a beat-up Mossberg 500 in 18in 7+1 with a pistol grip folding stock and barrel shroud. These were picked up on sale and used for the Mossberg for about 750. It's just a matter of money to me.

[_JT_]

I've been looking at the Saiga 12 for deer and just for fun. The price is nice, and i'm a fan of AK reliability. I do have a question in regards to the setup • Russian mfg.
• 19” barrel
• Semi-auto 12ga shotgun
• Gas operated
• Fixed sights
• Magazine feed
• Removable thread protector
• Black synthetic stock & forearm

Includes Sling Studs, Cleaning Tools, Oil Bottle, Manual, and (1) 5rd Mag
-What does the Removable thread protector mean? Is it already threaded?
-And if i were to take this out for Goose, is a 19" barrel too short?

[MCgunner]

The only shotguns I'm interested in are sporting arms. Therefore, I'd rather have a pump, auto, side by side, O/U, or single shot to a Saiga. I think maybe I'd get a Saiga before a lever action shotgun, but that's about it. :D

If I needed a 12 gauge slug gun for brown bear country, I might like a Saiga. They're not bad guns, I'm just not needing such a gun and my guns balance well, fit well, and swing well for me.

[lipadj46]

-What does the Removable thread protector mean? Is it already threaded?

It is threaded on the outside of the barrel for chokes and whatnot unlike sporting shotguns where the choke threading is on the inside of the barrel. They make a polychoke for the Saiga which is a must have if you plan on using it for turkey or duck hunting.


-And if i were to take this out for Goose, is a 19" barrel too short?

While the 24" would obviously be better with a polychoke and 3" shells it would be an OK duck and goose gun and a really good turkey gun. I am going to use mine for turkey and deer.

[_JT_]

I have a Browing Auto-5 for Goose/Duck, but will probably take the Saiga down to the farm just as a backup or if its a good day to give it a whirl. The Saiga is mainly going to be a Deer gun. Thanks for the quick replies guys.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

because they are still beaten on a regular basis by good semis like benellis at practical shotgun tournaments.

There ya go, right there. The proof is in the pudding. There must be something to them thar inferior ergos; else the top competitors would be choosing (and winning with) Saigas.

[lipadj46]

Hunters are a funny bunch. People make fun of women because they have so many shoes or are so inflexible about fashion and what is "in" and "out" of style. IMO hunters are worse, got forbid it has a polychoke or has a synthetic stock or is not blued properly. I say anyone who gives a Saiga a chance would get to be as proficient with it as any other firearm. I have a feeling Saiga's will rule 3 gun competitions soon. Skeet and Trap? They were not meant for that. They make a mean turkey and deer gun though.

[stiletto raggio]

The last shotgun I bought was a Saiga. The next shotgun I will buy will be a Saiga. I have high-end Berettas for shooting clays, Benellis for birds, and Winchesters for deer and turkey. I have no need for another sporting gun at this point. But the Saiga is, bottom line, the best combat shotgun in production. Why? Because it is the only shotgun built from the ground up for fighting. It is also the only shotgun I can see getting banned outright. So as shotguns go, that is what I will buy.

You can buy a new S-12 for $600 shipped and convert it yourself for under $200. A plain-Jane conversion will stack up favorably against any combat shotgun on the market and they are easy to upgrade on your own later.

And magazines are relatively plentiful. 5, 10, 13 and 20 rounders are available, and you can get the new ProMag 10s for under $30 if you shop around.

[stiletto raggio]

Also, you can get a 10 or 12 round tube-fed, but it will have a 26-32" barrel (or have the magazine sticking out past the end of the barrel). I can have 20 rounds on tap with an 18" barrel, and follow that with a slew of extra stick mags. Life is not a three gun match, and I would bet that most of those guys won't switch until they start getting beat by Saiga-weilding shooters. They have too much time invested in their own training and practice doctrine. But for a new shooter, magazines are far easier than reloading a tube. When a reliable drop-in last round bolt hold-open is available, it will be game over for tube guns in competition.

[Justin]

I have a feeling Saiga's will rule 3 gun competitions soon.

Only in Open division, and that remains to be seen. Magazine-fed shotguns are generally prohibited from being used in the equivalent of Tactical, Limited or Heavy Metal.

[_JT_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eGP62sdds
or you could buy this 20 rd drum

[Gunfighter123]

Quote:
because they are still beaten on a regular basis by good semis like benellis at practical shotgun tournaments.

"There ya go, right there. The proof is in the pudding. There must be something to them thar inferior ergos; else the top competitors would be choosing (and winning with) Saigas."


As far as 3 Gun --- the Saiga or any other mag fed shotgun forces you to shoot in "Unlimited Class " ---- reason must be they are faster to reload ???

Also , in Europe the Saigas have been stomping the sheet out of Rem. and Benillies for the last two years. Do a search for major match results in Europe and see what the top winners are useing.

The Saiga S-12s are just starting to get a toe hold in the US --- when Top Competitors start getting beat by less talented shooters useing Saigas , you can bet that will change.
We all know that shooters in general are a bit Traditional -- hard for a Top Shooter to switch from a Rem/Ben. after they have been useing that type of SG for 10 plus years and many hundreds of shooting matches.


EDIT ---- DAMN , I type slow !!!!

[_JT_]

one other question with the Saiga 12. The site i was looking at previously only had the 19" barrel. They now have the 24 inch barrels, 24 is still ok for Sluggin deer right? Obviously it would be a better setup for waterfowl now

[JImbothefiveth]

Well, if you only have one magazine for it, the saiga will take longer to reload. I've also heard that the saiga magazine can crush the shell, rendering the shotgun useless, and maybe even causing a kaboom, but I'm not sure if that's true.

Most shotguns will have different ergonomics than a saiga, but I'm not sure if that's good or bad. They will also be easier to configure for hunting or clay shooting.

[_JT_]

from reading other sites, the problem with the mags compressing rounds is if you leave them in the mag for over a week. I'm fine with that part. Just doing some random saiga searches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulBn-PVq-AQ&feature=related) I found this clip on youtube of Saiga 2007-2008 Competitions

[JImbothefiveth]

the problem with the mags compressing rounds is if you leave them in the mag for over a week.
I think that would be the number one disadvantage of the saiga. You couldn't count on it for self-defense.

[Gunfighter123]

" I think that would be the number one disadvantage of the saiga. You couldn't count on it for self-defense."

You must be kidding !!!!

As has posted MANY TIMES -- you can just leave the BOLT OPEN and A MAG IN THE SG --- No Compressed shells !!!

Or as has been posted --- use a 10 or 12 rd. mag and LEAVE a shell or two out --- Still leaveing 9-11 rds. ready to go.

AND YES -- it can be counted on it for Self-Defense !!

[stiletto raggio]

I think Gunfighter hit it on the head: the traditional three-gunners wrote the rules to keep mag-fed guns out because they were a tremendous advantage. Now, back when the highly expensive and exotic Franchi 15s were the only mag-fed shotguns available and the three-gun organizers didn't want victory to be an issue of who had deeper pockets. I understand that.

I also understand the virtue in maintaining, developing and innovating the manual of arms for tube-fed shotguns. They are by far the most common shotgun in America, if not the world. People who were raised on them can be faster with a pump than an auto, but that doesn't make them faster for the population in general. Similarly, to pretend that tube-feds are superior to mag-feds for the average (or even advanced) shooter is self-deceptive.

Bottom line: with the ready availability of relatively inexpensive mag-fed shotguns, the only reason tactical matches relegate mag-fed guns to Open class is because they are technologically superior to tube-fed guns.

[Indyarms]

For starters, I would challenge any one of you trap/skeet guys to a round of 16 yard 5 station with 20 gauges. I will use my Saiga 20 gauge with its horrible small sight radius. I break 25's CONSISTENTLY with my 20 gauge at the 16 yard trap and with my S12 I can shoot A class... Its choked tighter than the 20 so its a little less forgiving.

It is threaded on the outside of the barrel for chokes and whatnot unlike sporting shotguns where the choke threading is on the inside of the barrel.
This is the kind of comment that is disastrous to ALL GUN OWNERS... you have claimed that a saiga is UNSPORTING because of how its threaded... That means that all nuts and bolts that are metric must be COMMUNIST BOLTS or SOCIALIST bolts cause they originated in Europe... and are UN-AMERICAN because of the odd size used on them... Really dude... think before you go saying inane drivel that hurts ALL gun owners with BAD SPIN!!! The media shats on us enough, we dont need our OWN doing it too! now, with that said...
Since people do not believe they exist...
If anyone would like PICTURES of Saiga chokes, please email me, and I will send you pictures of IC, Mod., and Full chokes. A thread protector is just that... it protects the barrel threads from dings or dirt. The externally threaded barrel allows for the rapid exchange of not only fixed chokes but brakes, polychokes, and just simple cool stuff that does nothing more than get oohs and aahs... Aesthetics... Who would have thought!?!?!
I have nothing against traditional shotguns... I own several doubles, and several pumps. I use a pump when I go deer hunting because of the fully rifled barrel and its incredible accuracy. If Saigas had rifled barrels I would use one of those IF IT WAS THE MOST ACCURATE SHOTGUN of those I own!
As far as bird hunting... Saigas come in a 24" barrel with the ability to accept chokes... and they make a 2 round magazine FACTORY... yes, they are hard to come by... but you can plug a 5 round box mag in just a few seconds more than it takes to plug a mag tube.

Why do Binelli's constantly dominate the competition fields??

Well... Actually... they dont... Sorry to burst the bubble here guys... the SHOOTER dominates the field. If that same WINNING SHOOTER would train to that winning level that he did with his Binelli... his times would be UNTOUCHABLE with a Saiga... Its just that they weren't the "gun of the elite" back when all the competition was first starting out... the data is out there... a Saiga will cycle faster than a Binelli. Sorry guys, thats how it is... Dont cry about it... look it up...

I am trying to remember what other ignorance I read here... things about bad triggers... I dont need a 1.5 pound target trigger in my shotgun... I dont know anyone that does... you point you pull... simple... I dont get it... The Saiga trigger has some take up... so do a LOT of guns on the market these days. Hell... I have a Marlin 17 rifle thats got a WORSE trigger than ANY of my saiga shotguns... *** is up with that?!?!?

how do they point? Well, I dunno... TRY ONE OUT. Until you hold one and shoot it, I would say you have no room to make *ANY* comments good or bad. Kinda like saying you dont like a particular food... if you have NEVER tried it, how do you know you dont like it?!?!?

No, Saigas are NOT really meant for the duck blind... thats true... but they are not incapable of performing there... besides... how often do you shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3... etc..etc... ??!?!?

I would say if you and everyone 4else in the blind get off 6 rounds, that wing is going to be over for a few minutes and you would have time, while the dog retrieves to load a few rounds back into a couple mags... If you shoot more than 6... and there is no time... well, you will be done hunting in about 10 minutes... or you are such POOR shots, you *NEED* to make the time for reloads in between...

I really just take offense that some self proclaimed "gun enthusiasts" are no more than imbeciles who are afraid of that which they do not know, and condemn that which they are not familiar with because its different, under the claim of "not as sporting as..." As gun lovers we need to EMBRACE all that is out there, because sure as Christ made apples, once one is limited, it wont be long before the bounds are overstepped again... When autoloadres are gone... we dont need them... we have pumps... those are next... we dont need pumps, we have doubles... when those are gone... we dont need those, we have singles... when those are gone... what can ya hunt with a single anyways?!?!? What do you have LEFT?!?!? NOTHING!

And that my friends is EXACTLY the way the powers that be want you to think so little by little they can step in and REMOVE the second amendment one gun at a time... and we will have you to thank for helping them do it... because who needs a "tactical shotgun!??!?"

Where does it end?

Think people... really!

:barf:

[nalioth]

2. Conversion to PG is expensive and destructive (meaning it isn't a simple parts swap)
I disagree on the "expensive" part of this statement.

On a Saiga shotgun w/o a threaded muzzle, it cost me all of $40 for a fire control group. I used a take-off buttstock and pistol grip from a Romy G kit I built a while back.

If you don't drill holes in it, there is no need to refinish it, as the Saigas are all parkerized before they're painted.

[MCgunner]

Hunters are a funny bunch. People make fun of women because they have so many shoes or are so inflexible about fashion and what is "in" and "out" of style. IMO hunters are worse, got forbid it has a polychoke or has a synthetic stock or is not blued properly. I say anyone who gives a Saiga a chance would get to be as proficient with it as any other firearm. I have a feeling Saiga's will rule 3 gun competitions soon. Skeet and Trap? They were not meant for that. They make a mean turkey and deer gun though.

But, there is no reason WHY I should think a Saiga better than my 10 an 12 gauge guns for goose hunting, now is there? I tell ya what would get me to buy one. They come out with 10 gauge 3 1/2" Saiga for 400-500 bucks, I'll try one out. :D That would really interest me. There aren't many 10s and NO autos I can afford. I saw a SP10 used for just under $1000 at a shop the other day. :rolleyes: Maybe, someday, but I'll probably be better off saving for a good used Browning BPS, frankly. Should be able to find one in the 400-500 dollar range when I get ready to look. I bought an H&R to try the gauge out on geese and I'm hooked. :D

[Gunfighter123]

I stand on my shooting record --- 25 years of IPSC , IDPA , Bowling Pin , Cowboy Action , 3 Gun etc. etc.
I learned long ago , about the time .38 Super single stacks came out , to at least TRY to have a open mind instead of a open mouth !!!!

Will I say "I AM WRONG " if need be , YES ---- example= GLOCKS.

25 years ago , I was one of the first to say "plastic guns are JUNK" , they will never hold up to thousands of rounds , they will get hot and jam,jam,jam etc. etc. -----was I wrong ??? YES , I WAS WRONG !!

Do I own a Glock ?? NO , I just don't like them.
Now , I ask ANYONE to show where I post as a Glock Hater ---- not my cup of tea but if YOU like/love Glocks , MORE POWER TO YOU.

I have to agree with IndyArms that if we don't stick together as gun owners , "they" will take us apart one by one.

Just look how some states have banned .50BMG --- do I own one ?? NOPE --- but it is fine with me if YOU OWN ONE !!!

All the above said to show that the Saiga S-12 IS NOT JUST FOR KILLING STUFF or HD or etc.

[MCgunner]

Has anyone said anything about banning Saigas? All I'm giving is the opinion I was asked for in the OP.

[Gunfighter123]

MCgunner -- my comment was not directed at you.

Just a sad fact that some people are closed minded to anything other than what they like.

Do a search about "colored" weapons etc ---- I don't care if someone wants a pink and purple shotgun -- it is for them and not me.
Some posters act like those people are Commies , Perverts , etc. etc.

MCgunner --- again , my post above this one was not directed at you.

[Indyarms]

I have moderated on the Saiga forum for a few years now... I have probably forgotten more about the AK platform of firearm than MOST firearms friendly people know... but its not about me thinking an AK is a "better" firearm than another... maybe better for some aspects, certainly not for others...

HOWEVER...

I DO need to stay on that soapbox because in this time of the US of A we are in deep guano if we all do not unify and fight back against the whittling away of our rights and freedoms as FREEMEN!

The 2nd amendment DOES NOT GUARANTEE our right to keep and bear arms... it only REAFFIRMS and REMINDS THOSE THAT BE that THAT right is GOD GIVEN, as FREEMEN we have that right INHERENTLY!

Its not about the who owns what or who is a fudd or who thinks what gun is junk... Its more about attitudes of "we dont need that.... because we have these"... That thinking is completely detrimental to our hobby and our passion. THAT is the thinking that bans guns one name/caliber/feature at a time until there are none left. and if you think I am "preaching" well, then Maybe you need to return to the pew for another sermon...

I am sorry if I come across "hot headed" but I feel the need to feed the flames to make sure we all know which side of the fight we are on... and yes, we are in one serious one!

:cool:

[Indyarms]

By the way, LipadJ46... Where in NY ya from???

I am about 20 miles west of Syracuse myself... we should get together and blow some rounds downrange sometime!! :)

I am actually contemplating a NY "funshoot" at my property near Seneca falls this spring/summer for a small group of like minded fellows...

Keep it in mind... :)


:cool:

[lipadj46]

I am in Western NY born and raised but just moved back here after being tortured by living in NYC for 10 years. That would be fun If you are ever in the area let me know my family has some property in Southern NY for shooting and hunting.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Well, IndyArms put it best.

Look, while I can't guarantee that a Saiga-12 is the best gun ever, or that it will "always" dominate 3-gun in the near future, it's an excellent combat weapon. It isn't ideal for sporting clays or bird, but is more than serviceable.

Anyone who has a belief that the Saiga-12 isn't that good a weapon, or "unnecessary" no. It's all about personal preference.

[Corbin]

I've been a shotgun guy for decades. It's what I like to shoot. I've owned several Remingtons (870s, 1100s, one 1187 and an old model 11). I own a Benelli M3 Super 90 pump/semi that I've had for years. Great gun, though I'm going to sell it. I've had Mossbergs and Winchesters too. It wasn't until a month ago that I bought a Saiga 12 shotgun. So my view on this might still be a little bias towards what I've always known. I think I'm pretty open minded though.

I was introduced to the tube fed shotgun in my youth. I was trained with it in the Army, then later at Gunsite in AZ. It's what I know and what I'm comfortable with. I tended to go with a pump over a semi, but that's just me.

After a shotgun injury to my right palm (Army stuff), I had to become left handed. This greatly affected my ability to use the pump guns as easily as I had. I still do OK, but it's more challenging. Not too long after that, I started looking at semi autos instead of pumps. Nothing against pumps. It's just what worked better for ME.

My new Saiga 12 is still being "broken in" I suppose (200-250 rounds through it so far). Anything #6 shot or above cycles like a champ. It's easier FOR ME to reload than my tube guns. It cycles faster than my Benelli too, as you can see in this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDQ9NOjUWFM) video. That's not full auto either. It's a fast firing technique.

As I said, number 6 cycles great. Number 8, not so much. Check out the jams using light load #8 shot here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn3EPsvegOE&feature=email). By polishing up some parts and not shooting as fast, it can cycle those pretty reliably, but I want it to be 100% in order to avoid Mr. Murphy as much as possible. :)

Anyway, to get more on the topic of this thread.......

So, what do I think the downsides are on the Saiga? Well, many folks have already mentioned some, but I can only speak for myself what I find better on the tube fed guns over the Saiga. Forgive me if I state something that's already been mentioned....

* Most tube fed gun are sleeker and not as prone to hang up on things. The 5 round Saiga mag is fairly low profile, but not as much as a tube gun. I know shooting prone was mentioned and I can see where that might be a consideration, if you needed to do that. Of course, tilting a Saiga a little solves this with a 5 round mag.

* Definitely, the ability to cycle really, REALLY light loads has to go to the pump. Not necesarilly the tube fed semi, but the pump. The Saiga has an adjustable gas knob for shooting lighter vs. heavier loads. They make a 4 position knob that's supposed to help out in this area even more, but I don't own one of those yet, so I can't say how they work yet.

* As has been mentioned, the "assault" mystique that some people may attribute to the AK-47 can spill over towards the Saiga-12 if you want to shoot it at a public range or use it to hunt with. It sucks and shouldn't matter what the gun looks like so long as it meets the restrictions on mag capacity and whatever else may apply for whatever you're hunting, but unfortunately, in some areas of the Country, some people might give you crap about it. I used an old Colt SP1 AR15 with a Colt 22 conversion and 10 shot mag for hunting squirrels once. The GW thought I was Rambo until he saw what it was. Then he thought it was cool. I doubt all GWs will be like that though. Tube guns are usually less conspicuous.

* Domestically made and readilly available spare parts. While I really like my Saiga, if I need a new bolt for it, they're really tough to find locally. I suppose the same could be said for my Benelli though. Domestically made products help our economy too. USA! USA! :p

* I have to say, especially as a lefty..... I HATE THE AK STYLED SAFETY!! I'm currently designing a more user friendly safety, but we'll have to see how that goes. This isn't the thread for discussing THAT though.



Anyway, that's all I can come up with right now. Note that I didn't list the advantages of the Saiga, as this thread asked about the disadvantages. Please don't get me wrong, I really like my Saiga. I'd just change a few things. That's all.


I hope this helped.



Corbin

[_JT_]

Thanks Corbin, and nice videos. One question if this does get placed on the "List", will replacement parts still be available?

[Geneseo1911]

Hey Corbin-
Your Saiga should cycle light loads by now. Mine only has 55 rounds through it. I was shooting 1 oz loads, and didn't have a jam after the first 10.

You should check & make sure you have the correct number of gas holes in the barrel. If you go to Saiga-12.com and search for "vodka special", you'll find that Izhmash managed to build a few with the ports covered or missing entirely, resulting in guns that only cycle heavy loads.

Hey; there's a disadvantage to the Saiga; the plant is apparently next door to a distillery.

[zakmatthews]

"Thanks for the responses, but I'm really interested in why the Tube-Fed Pumps and autos are BETTER than the Saiga-12," = loaded question = biased response. If you're going to go fishing for reasons why you should get a pump instead of a Saiga, then you're already made up your mind, so stop whining and go buy your pump gun.

You're assuming all pumps are better than all Saigas. Not true. Pumps may be better at Saigas at some things, but Saigas are better than pumps at some things.

That said, I'd rather have my Saigas any day.

[Corbin]

My Saiga has all 4 holes in a diamond pattern. I checked it when I first got it. I've polished up the carrier, the bolt, the hammer and trigger.
I should emphasize that it works when fired from the shoulder at less than 3 shots a second with the #8 shot Wally World value pack ammo. It's just when I hold it below my armpit and start shooting 5 or 6 shots a second that it messes up using those. If I put #6 loads with a tad more drams of powder, it eats it up like Rosie at a dounut shop. :D

If/when they get put on a list, replacement parts would depend on if they regulate those too or not. Obviously, receivers would be the same as the gun itself. Parts like bolts and such SHOULDN'T be affected, I don't think. That's not to say Saiga parts are easy to get NOW. LOL


Corbin

[Geneseo1911]

If it makes you feel any better, I hear a lot of people can't get them to cycle when shot from the hip. Mine's that way, too. I was surprised a gas-operated semi would do that.

Oh yeah; welcome to THR!

[Justin]

We all know that shooters in general are a bit Traditional -- hard for a Top Shooter to switch from a Rem/Ben. after they have been useing that type of SG for 10 plus years and many hundreds of shooting matches.

I don't know how true this is for the guys at the top of the game. They're always on the lookout for even the slightest incremental competitive advantage, and if the Saigas were as huge of an advantage for Open class that everyone here seems to think they are, you'd see a lot more top shooters running them.

Bottom line: with the ready availability of relatively inexpensive mag-fed shotguns, the only reason tactical matches relegate mag-fed guns to Open class is because they are technologically superior to tube-fed guns.

This is akin to saying "I could totally dominate ICORE Limited division if only those jerks would let me shoot my Mateba!" Maybe yes, maybe no, but doing so would be something of a violation of the spirit of the game. Same goes for Tactical/Limited division in 3 Gun. Such divisions were presumably created to allow people to compete with firearms that are commonly owned and/or issued. Despite the popularity of the Saigas, the vast majority of shotguns owned in this country are tube-fed shotguns and it's a bit unfair to expect anyone who wants to play to have to specifically buy an entirely new weapons system to even be able to play.

That's what Open division is all about. If you want to experiment with the big money exotic stuff, Open is your playground.


As a final caveat, I will state that my experiences with the Saigas have been uniformly positive, even to the point of recommending one of the 20 gauge models to a gentleman who doesn't have the physical ability to run a pump shotgun.

[ArmedBear]

Why NOT a Saiga 12?

Already have too many toys, not enough money.:D

That said, people who confuse the Saiga with a clays gun just make me laugh. A Beretta 682 probably wouldn't be the first choice for military use, either.

The fact that two guns take 12 Gauge shells and huck shot downrange does not make them equivalent.

[waterhouse]

No, Saigas are NOT really meant for the duck blind... thats true... but they are not incapable of performing there... besides... how often do you shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3 shoot 3 load 3... etc..etc... ??!?!?


The OP asked "why not a Saiga?"

My response was that magazine fed shotguns offered no advantages and some drawbacks in a duck blind. If you are a duck hunter, or an upland game hunter, and that is all you use your shotgun for, a Saiga is probably not the ideal shotgun. Those are reasons for "Why not a Saiga?"

If a Saiga was your only shotgun it would work for hunting. I doubt it would be most people's first choice.

I've shot Saigas. I like them. I wouldn't use one for hunting if I had any of several other options.

[jackdanson]

The mag reloads aren't particularly easy to master.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

The mag release sounds like a dificult thing to master, but in reality, it's not that much more dificult to master than quick reloading a pump gun.

Also, once you've got it figured out, you can always load faster than a pump action with a tube mag.

I wouldn't tell someone that a Saiga is superior to a variety of duck guns, and upland game bird guns, but it'll get the job done.

As for combat, it's real hard to beat.

[lipadj46]

The mag reloads aren't particularly easy to master.

It actually becomes quite simple to load a mag on a closed bolt. It just takes a little practice.

[Geneseo1911]

I wouldn't tell someone that a Saiga is superior to a variety of duck guns, and upland game bird guns, but it'll get the job done

Agreed; but my big-time waterfowler buddy was licking his chops thinking about a 20 rnd drum for Snow Geese!

[Indyarms]

LOL!!!! I bet he WAS!!! ROFL!! now THAT would spit a few patterns out there REALLY FAST, wouldnt it?!?!?

[stiletto raggio]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Ask Eric Holder what a Saiga is good for.

[_JT_]

I just put my order in this morning for a 24inch Saiga 12ga, they say they are shipping first thing next week, i cant wait.

[The Deer Hunter]

I would love to have one to bring to the range, but for me I don't see a lot of use for it. It's really bulky, too.

The 12 GA version pulls up very nicely, though.

[Deer Hunter]

The Saiga is probably the most versatile automatic shotgun out there right now. I'd love one, but I want a benelli M1.

Versatility is better than specialization.

[Geneseo1911]

Hey DH...too bad they don't make a left handed one, eh?

Of course you wouldn't be able to use drums...

[rundm]

I like mine alot and right now I have it getting converted by red jacket in La. I thought it was only going to take 2 months, unfortunately 2 months came and went 2 months ago.

[TTR]

I have an 870 6+1 with 18" barrel that I once used for HD. I found that it distorts the ammo and renders it useless after setting there loaded up for awhile. I'd be in deep **** if I needed a second round.

I use my Saiga 12 for HD now. 5, 10, 13 or 20 round mags and I leave the bolt hold open engaged. I have a travelers vest loaded up with 6 (10) round mags in the pockets. Grab the vest and the loaded Saiga and I have enough ammo for the range or other possible situations.

I love my Saiga.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[nalioth]

I have a travelers vest loaded up with 6 (10) round mags in the pockets. Grab the vest and the loaded Saiga and I have enough ammo for the range or other possible situations.

Forgetting your weights on your diving expedition?

[ArmedBear]

Versatility is better than specialization.

Unless you want something specialized...:)

Shotguns confuse people, because they're the opposite of rifles in many ways.

There might be 10 different shotguns that are all 12 Gauges, but they are good for different things.

Then there might be 10 different rifles in 10 different calibers, and they are all good for about the same thing.

And yet, in the shotgun forum, you have people claiming the Saiga 12 is a pretty good skeet gun, whereas in the rifle forum, you have debates about .270 vs. 7mm-08 vs. 7x57 vs. 6.5x55...:D

[TTR]

Forgetting your weights on your diving expedition?

Yes, exactly :neener:

[zoom6zoom]

It's really bulky, too.
Have you had a chance to handle one? My uncoverted 19" is almost exactly the same size, shape, and weight as my 8 round Mossy 500 20". And it's thinner.

[MCgunner]

Agreed; but my big-time waterfowler buddy was licking his chops thinking about a 20 rnd drum for Snow Geese!

I'd love to be the federal game warden who was watching him cut loose on the geese with it. :rolleyes:

My single shot H&R 10 gauge keeps up with my buddies and their 10 and 12 gauge 3 1/2" pumps pretty well. :D It hits like the hammer of Thor compared to a 12 gauge 2 3/4" anything. Steel shot laws make it that way, but it'd be REALLY wicked with lead BBs. It out patterns any 12 I've ever shot on the pattern board, which is the real reason it works on geese so well.

I've never really wanted an M60 for deer hunting, either.

[lipadj46]

Have you had a chance to handle one? My uncoverted 19" is almost exactly the same size, shape, and weight as my 8 round Mossy 500 20". And it's thinner.

Don't bother some people just hate anything other than what they like and will say anything. Its funny there is a thread over at thefiringline 3 pages long with guys going on and on about people calling shotguns shotties, whatever. I have a bunch of more traditional shotguns and a Saiga and the Saiga has it's place and it is what I will be using this year for turkey and deer hunting.

[Grayrider]

I have had both and decided I prefer the tube fed for its compactness and ease of changing shell types on the fly. Having said that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the Saiga 12. They easily run as well as any auto-loader I have used, and are relatively soft shooting as gas actions go. I can appreciate the advantages in reloading faster. I was trained to top off as I go and so it does not bother me to do that with a tube fed, but I can appreciate why many shooters prefer magazines. Mine was a bit tricky to lock in with the bolt forward. As others have mentioned it just took practice.

I say if it works for you go for it! You are not likely to lose money on the gun if you sell it down the road.

John

[30mag]

You can't lose a tube mag, or drop it in combat.

[nalioth]

You can't lose a tube mag, or drop it in combat.. . . but you can dent it, and then you're SOL.

[Javelin]

You fellas don't want a Saiga-12. They are terrible. A fast 20 rounds of 12 gauge availability brought to you with AK reliability, can easily shoot 2-3 rounds a second (literally the fastest cycling shotgun in the world) and clean a 12 round mag in under 5 seconds. And have it customized by Tromix Corp/cut down however you want it? Yeah what on earth would you want to do with that kind of nonsense. :rolleyes:

The title of the thread is "Why not a Saiga-12" not "The Thread for Grumpy Old Men" :neener:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=938
http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=937
http://glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=258&pictureid=936

[ArmedBear]

. . . but you can dent it, and then you're SOL.


The situation that would dent an 870 magazine to the extent that it didn't feed would probably result in an unusable shotgun anyway.

That's not an argument against the Saiga, just an observation about the supposed problem of a dented tube magazine.

It may be a valid concern with a lever rifle or a .22 like a Marlin 60, which has a heavy barrel but a sheet metal magazine. But if you squish the magazine of a 12 Gauge shotgun, chances are your barrel and/or receiver are gone, too -- and they'd be history on a Saiga, just as much as an 870.:)

[lipadj46]

I guess I never saw the "you can lose your magazine or it can break" as a real concern. I have 10 magazines and from what I hear people have a lot more than that. Plus the spring can just as easily go in a tube mag.

I will readily admit that a tube magazine is definitely more useful in a bird hunting situation where your shotgun mag has to be plugged to 2 rounds and you get into a bunch of birds. It is easy to stuff 1 or 2 rounds in the tube mag between volleys where if you have a removable mag it would be a pain. But in a deer hunting or turkey hunting scenario where you generally only take 1 or 2 shots then it would not really matter.

[ArmedBear]

I have 10 magazines

Carried on you?

The "lose your magazine or it can break" concern was tied to "in combat." This problem, if it is a problem, isn't really addressed by having a closet full of extra magazines.

[Gunfighter123]

Hello,
The "lose your magazine or it can break" concern should not be really a problem in a home defense type action ----- after all , if you have a 5,8,10,or 20 rd. mag/drum ALREADY in the gun , HOW would you Lose It ???

Same thing as to the mag getting "broke" ---- however it could get broke , would more then likely , break the shotgun or your arm , hand etc.

[lipadj46]

Carried on you?

The "lose your magazine or it can break" concern was tied to "in combat." This problem, if it is a problem, isn't really addressed by having a closet full of extra magazines.

I guess I don't get it, soldiers generally carry more than 1 magazine in combat, so if whatever happens and the mag fails, remove it and put in a new one.

Why don't we just all agree to disagree?

[SN13]

You know, you're right, you could lose a mag. Damn, we better all go back to Marlin 30-30 lever actions because they're tube-fed and you'll never lose a mag.

Do you see the folly of your argument? Since WWI military rifles have been mag fed. Enfields, Mosins (well hinged-floor plate), etc. Up to the AK-47, the AR15, etc.

But when it comes to shotguns you cling to obsolete practices because you "Don't want to lose a mag"....

AR15 & AK47, both of these become worthless without mags, compared to a tube-fed rifle. Then why does everyone bother owning one? Oh that's right, capacity and quick reload. BAM. Just like a S12.

You don't reload AR mags during combat, you reload on downtime. Just like you don't reload S12 during combat, you reload on downtime. Having 100rds (10x10rd mags) loaded and ready to go means that you can shoot 10, reload, shoot 10, etc. until you use 100rds. This will probably take you about....50 seconds to shoot, reload, shoot all 100. (without taking time to aim).

3 seconds to shoot 10, 2 to reload.

Take your favorite Tube-Feeder. Time how long it takes you to load in 8 shells, or 5 or 2. Now divide 100 rounds by the number of rounds you loaded, and multiply that number by the time it took you to load the 8, 5, or 2 or whatever. Scary long isn't it?

How long is an eternity when you're out of ammo, reloading one shot at a time, and in fear for your life? 2 seconds? I'll get 10 new rounds in the gun while you get 2. I think I'll be better off.

~SN13

[Boats]

Obsolete practices? That's an interesting way to put things.

If shotguns only fired one type of load, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but they don't.

The tube mag shotgun is superior to the mag fed weapon for ammunition handling in every respect save for refilling to total capacity and clearing the weapon.

Switch from less lethal to lethal? Tube wins in terms of time, especially with a side saddle.
Switch from shot to slugs and back to shot? A tube will win that too.
Don't have downtime in a protracted engagement and have to reload from the box? A tube will win that one too.

The S-12 is cool, but it's not revolutionary. Mag fed shotguns have been around for a long time, and even when BATF classed the USAS-12 and the SPAS-15 as "destructive devices," they didn't take the military and police communities by storm and render the tube fed shotgun "obsolete."

[ArmedBear]

I guess I don't get it, soldiers generally carry more than 1 magazine in combat, so if whatever happens and the mag fails, remove it and put in a new one.

Why don't we just all agree to disagree?

Because I don't disagree with you, maybe?:)

I said, "if it is a problem" in answer to a guy who said he had 10 magazines. Obviously, that's irrelevant.

The question is, "How many full 12 Gauge magazines would you carry in combat?" I'm not sure. But it'd be more than one, I figure.

[Gunfighter123]

Someone --- ANYONE -- please post some links to where people UNDER FIRE took the time to switch from Buckshot to Slugs or Non-Lethal etc.

Under fire , you are going to use what ya got --- I think the ONLY people who would switch loads in a shooting situation , MAYBE police, but that would be VERY seldom IF EVER.

Go to youtube and watch some Saiga S-12 reloads --- run a stopwatch ---- They/YOU can reload a mag in UNDER 3 seconds. Now watch someone do the same with a tube-fed SG --- the time is VERY CLOSE and with the S-12 , you are loading MORE then one round.

"The S-12 is cool, but it's not revolutionary. Mag fed shotguns have been around for a long time, and even when BATF classed the USAS-12 and the SPAS-15 as "destructive devices," they didn't take the military and police communities by storm and render the tube fed shotgun "obsolete."

No , they didn't ---- main reason is PRICE !!! For the cost of a USAS12 , you could buy 3 pump SGs --- when I bought my USAS-12 , in the mid-1980s , they were almost $1000.
At that time , you could buy 3 Rem. Wingmasters for the same price and Savage,Mossberg , Win. were cheaper still.

For the military and police communities the shotgun is low man on the totem pole --- hence, price.

IF the tube-fed FIREARM is so great, then WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ???????

[ArmedBear]

WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ???????

Well, if you look at military weapons history, it's not because of anything discussed here. It's because of spitzer bullets, and it goes back to the 19th Century.

And who, in combat, uses buckshot?

Again, that's not an argument against the Saiga (or for it).

Gunfighter, right or wrong, your posts are sounding like rants, not cogent arguments.

This whole thread should probably be allowed to die.

[lipadj46]

Then we should just let it die, or maybe a mod can put this thread out of it's misery. Dave M. put a couple rounds in this thread's ear :)

Can we leave it at this?:

ArmedBear and some others do not like mag fed shotguns. Gunfighter123 and some others think the Saiga-12 is the bee's knees.

Quick someone lock this thread.

[Boats]

Someone --- ANYONE -- please post some links to where people UNDER FIRE took the time to switch from Buckshot to Slugs or Non-Lethal etc.

Are you saying that no one trains for this eventuality? The usual step up would be from less lethal to lethal.

Under fire , you are going to use what ya got --- I think the ONLY people who would switch loads in a shooting situation , MAYBE police, but that would be VERY seldom IF EVER.

That something is seldom done doesn't mean it is without its merits. How often are you gonna need 20 rounds of buckshot or the reload of yet another magazine? Do you practice mag changes anyways? If so why?

Go to youtube and watch some Saiga S-12 reloads --- run a stopwatch ---- They/YOU can reload a mag in UNDER 3 seconds. Now watch someone do the same with a tube-fed SG --- the time is VERY CLOSE and with the S-12 , you are loading MORE then one round.

So what? Plan on missing a lot?

"The S-12 is cool, but it's not revolutionary. Mag fed shotguns have been around for a long time, and even when BATF classed the USAS-12 and the SPAS-15 as "destructive devices," they didn't take the military and police communities by storm and render the tube fed shotgun "obsolete."

No , they didn't ---- main reason is PRICE !!! For the cost of a USAS12 , you could buy 3 pump SGs --- when I bought my USAS-12 , in the mid-1980s , they were almost $1000.

At that time , you could buy 3 Rem. Wingmasters for the same price and Savage, Mossberg , Win. were cheaper still.

A S-12 basic+conversion is rapidly approaching or exceeding $1k, depending on the mods.:rolleyes: One can still get three decent pump guns for that price. The other way of making the point would be that there isn't enough value added for the mag fed semi-auto to make its price point sensible compared to the tube fed pump or semi.

For the military and police communities the shotgun is low man on the totem pole --- hence, price.

Again, for the price the pump shotgun gives up almost nothing to a Saiga but a spray and pray mode of operation. Next to no one in the real world needs the firepower the S-12 can bring, as thrilling as it may be to shoot. I am not for banning the S-12 or having it needlessly reclassified as a DD by the batmen, but it is also not God's gift to combat shotgunnery for everyone.

IF the tube-fed FIREARM is so great, then WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ???????

Certainly you aren't this ignorant of military history? The tube fed shotgun is still a front line weapon in our military and has been since 1897. Turned on its ear, "If the mag fed shotgun is so inarguably great, why doesn't it enjoy more widespread appeal?"

This thread has pretty much answered that question. The mag-fed shotgun isn't everyones' dream gun for very valid reasons ranging from a lack of real world versatility to ergonomic deficiencies real or perceived.

You don't have to act like someone just shot your dog over it.

[ReadyontheRight]

-Mags are expensive, hard to find and made out of plastic.
-Strange weight balance to shoot at flying objects (but just something to learn)
-It's easier to top-off a tube magazine.
-Hard to load single-shot (as required for some uses like trap), but it is do-able.
-If you use it at a Trap range, and you are in a hurry to leave, you won't be able to. Everyone wants to see it.:)

[Gunfighter123]

lock the thread ??? Whatever , I'm gonna take my baseball and go home.

A BETTER idea --- send this to MythBusters !!!

Myth --- Saigas handle like "bulldozers" ---- maybe to some ,others find them to handle great.

Myth --- the Saigas are heavy , fact is they weigh the same as a Rem. 1100.

Myth --- mags can be lost or broken -- maybe , but I could win the lottery also.

Myth ---- no good for shooting Trap , Skeet etc ---- not the best choice but S-12s can be used.

Semi-Myth --- hard to go prone -- again , not with 5 rd. mags.

Myth -- "who in combat uses Buckshot" ---- come on , now who is "ranting" ---- WW1 , WW2 , Korea, etc. ---- the US was useing Buckshot in combat.

Now I don't remember if I made this offer in this thread or another Saiga thread ---------- Lets put our MONEY where our mouth is !!!!

I will bet that I can load a empty S-12 faster then most can load a tube fed SG. Both SGs empty to loading full.

I will bet I can hit more "clays" with the S-12 then I miss.

I will bet that I can knock down X number of Poppers as fast as a Rem , Win. etc.

I will bet that I can shoot prone with a 5 rd. Saiga just fine. And MAYBE a 10rd. Saiga ---- I don't do much prone shooting with a SG.

I have tried very hard to remain polite and other then 1 person , I have not "named names" etc.


Now --- go ahead and lock this thread , I don't care ---- if anyone has some cash they want to bet -- I am easy to get in touch with and we can post the video of the outcome of the bet.

I'm done "ranting" ---- have a nice day.

[Big Bill]

Why NOT a Saiga-12?Because it is made in RUSSIA!

[lipadj46]

I'm done "ranting" ---- have a nice day.

Hey I agree with you and gladly use my Saiga for sporting purposes. This thread just continues beating this poor horse to death and is pretty much going in circles.

[illEagle]

Well... Let ME say this about that.

I've owned plenty of pump/auto shotguns, even a bolt action once upon a time. They were fine guns every one. Then I found this ugly thing called a Saiga. It sure was a homely bugger. But i saw the images of what it was meant to be on the World Wide Web and I knew what I had to do.

I went to the shop to look at a brand new 1911. As it has been of late, the shop was overrun with eager customers. The 1911 counter was full so I browsed the shotgun rack while waiting my turn. As I turned towards the rack I thought I heard the singing of angels. Then, a section of the rack seamed to be just a little bit brighter than the surrounding store. What could it be? I stepped closer and there it was, then object of my affection, the shotgun I had been calling about for months. A Saiga S-12! In stock! Ready to go!

Needless to say, I took it home. I have since become a gunsmith of sorts. Before the Saiga the closest I ever came was a good field stripping and cleaning of various other "toys". And that my friends is the whole point of this thread.

My Saiga is a new hobby. It's the most fun I've had with a new "toy" in quite some time. Is it the best damn shotgun ever created? Maybe it is. Is it the best looking shot gun in the safe... That depends on who you ask, don't it? I must say that it looks a whole lot better now that I've squeezed the "sporter" out of it and returned it to its' "evil" tactical blackness.

Why not a Saiga-12?
It doesn't look like a real shotgun.
I don't want to be different.
It might scare the neighbors.

YMMV

[RP88]

why not? Because finding one is very hard; converting it is very expensive compared to the rifle counterparts, and finding mags is hard AND expensive

but other than that, I wish I had one.

[Gunfighter123]

Are you saying that no one trains for this eventuality? The usual step up would be from less lethal to lethal.

Are YOU saying we should have beanbag or rubber buckshot loaded and then "load up" to something more lethal??

That something is seldom done doesn't mean it is without its merits. How often are you gonna need 20 rounds of buckshot or the reload of yet another magazine? Do you practice mag changes anyways? If so why?

I hope I don't NEED 20 rds. of buckshot as I don't own a drum mag.
I DO own more then one mag -- some are 5 rds. and some are 10 rds.
Do I practice mag changes ?? YES , with Rifles , Shotguns , and Handguns. I even practice "reloading" my revolvers. As to WHY --- to get better/faster. BTW --- you NEVER did post a link where someone changed from a lethal to a non-lethal shotshell while under fire.

So what? Plan on missing a lot?
Where to start with this one -- Maybe unlike YOU , I DO MISS when someone is shooting at me. Also , you can shoot to make/keep the BG under cover or shooting back at you. I KNOW FOR A FACT THIS WORKS or I would not be alive now.

A S-12 basic+conversion is rapidly approaching or exceeding $1k, depending on the mods. One can still get three decent pump guns for that price. The other way of making the point would be that there isn't enough value added for the mag fed semi-auto to make its price point sensible compared to the tube fed pump or semi.

Did you just quote me or read it first,
The Saiga S-12 , up untill the election , could be bought for under $400 , then add another $300 to convert it to pistol grip etc. etc. -- you would still be UNDER the price of a mag-fed shotgun that I bought in the 1980s. And with Ed Brown etc. etc. 1911 .45s at over $1000 , who is crying about a $1000 shotgun ---- and BTW , how much is it for a good O/U Trap gun ???

Again, for the price the pump shotgun gives up almost nothing to a Saiga but a spray and pray mode of operation. Next to no one in the real world needs the firepower the S-12 can bring, as thrilling as it may be to shoot. I am not for banning the S-12 or having it needlessly reclassified as a DD by the batmen, but it is also not God's gift to combat shotgunnery for everyone.



a spray and pray mode of operation ??? PLEASE !!!! Next to no one in the real world needs the firepower the S-12 can bring --- I could say the same thing about your beloved pumpgun except it would sound lame !! Maybe we all better go back to double barrels ?? Wait --- no one in the Real World would need Two Shots unless they planned on missing alot !!!!!

Certainly you aren't this ignorant of military history? The tube fed shotgun is still a front line weapon in our military and has been since 1897. Turned on its ear, "If the mag fed shotgun is so inarguably great, why doesn't it enjoy more widespread appeal?"

Nice try ---- did YOU read what you quoted me ??? I SAID "IF the tube-fed FIREARM is so great, then WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ??????? " ----- and I even typed FIREARM in capital letters.
Care to ansewer the question on why ??? And NO -- Certainly you aren't this ignorant of military history? I know pump shotguns have been in use from WW1 -- thats why I said FIREARMS and not SHOTGUNS.

You don't have to act like someone just shot your dog over it.


Boats ---- you have NO IDEA how I would act if someone shot my dog.

Funny no one has got in touch to take my bet --- money up Boys.

[Boats]

Are YOU saying we should have beanbag or rubber buckshot loaded and then "load up" to something more lethal??

No, but the ability to shift from buck to slugs might be handy and the skill is the same.

I hope I don't NEED 20 rds. of buckshot as I don't own a drum mag.
I DO own more then one mag -- some are 5 rds. and some are 10 rds.
Do I practice mag changes ?? YES , with Rifles , Shotguns , and Handguns. I even practice "reloading" my revolvers. As to WHY --- to get better/faster. BTW --- you NEVER did post a link where someone changed from a lethal to a non-lethal shotshell while under fire.

Why do you need a link? This skill is instructed at most combat shotgun classes conducted by well regarded trainers. Perhaps they should begin shooting at their students.


Where to start with this one -- Maybe unlike YOU , I DO MISS when someone is shooting at me. Also , you can shoot to make/keep the BG under cover or shooting back at you. I KNOW FOR A FACT THIS WORKS or I would not be alive now.

Do tell. Then maybe you can instruct us on suppressive fire's role in home defense.

Did you just quote me or read it first,
The Saiga S-12 , up untill the election , could be bought for under $400 , then add another $300 to convert it to pistol grip etc. etc. -- you would still be UNDER the price of a mag-fed shotgun that I bought in the 1980s. And with Ed Brown etc. etc. 1911 .45s at over $1000 , who is crying about a $1000 shotgun ---- and BTW , how much is it for a good O/U Trap gun ???

You said the Franchi and USAS were/are market failures due to how expensive they are/were. My point was that the converted Saiga just reached that same ridiculous price and lack of value threshold.

a spray and pray mode of operation ??? PLEASE !!!! Next to no one in the real world needs the firepower the S-12 can bring --- I could say the same thing about your beloved pumpgun except it would sound lame !! Maybe we all better go back to double barrels ?? Wait --- no one in the Real World would need Two Shots unless they planned on missing alot !!!!!

Blah, blah, blah. Your reductionism wasn't the point. You don't have a drum mag, so you have no realistic capacity edge over most pump guns, merely a reloading advantage. Again, most people aren't going to be singlehandedly fighting gang sets or something that requires your dubious advantage.

Nice try ---- did YOU read what you quoted me ??? I SAID "IF the tube-fed FIREARM is so great, then WHY is it that EVERY army in the whole world -- uses detatchable mags ??????? " ----- and I even typed FIREARM in capital letters.
Care to ansewer the question on why ??? And NO -- Certainly you aren't this ignorant of military history? I know pump shotguns have been in use from WW1 -- thats why I said FIREARMS and not SHOTGUNS.

Since no one was arguing the military greatness of lever operated rifles, you'll need to expound on why you insist on an apples/oranges comparison in a shotgun thread. The more relevant inquiry is why the mag fed shotgun doesn't retire the tube fed shotgun to obsolescence. The answer would be that unlike the detachable mag rifle, which brings a considerable capacity edge, reloading advantage, and the ability to load between 20-40 spitzer rounds, as opposed to six or fewer rounded nose bullets, the mag fed shotgun only brings a more convenient reload at the cost of operational flexibility.

Boats ---- you have NO IDEA how I would act if someone shot my dog.

I'm convinced that hysterics would be part of the response.

[rbernie]

This thread just continues beating this poor horse to death and is pretty much going in circles.
Pretty much.

The OP asked for circumstances in which a tube-mag shotgun might work better, and I think that we've pretty much covered all that. I'm not seeing any new ideas come out on that topic in the last couple o' dozen posts.

We've also had over 600 threads in this forum addressing some aspect of the Saiga, with two notable threads in the last two months:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=418851

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=417168

I don't think that any new information is going to come out on this topic if only we just keep hammering at it. There are those that see the differences in employment between a detachable box-fed shotgun and a tube-fed shotgun to be minimal, and there are those who see them as significant.

Y'all just need to do what makes you the most effective in your intended usage. Just make sure to run the snot outta whatever you choose, and get good at usin' it.

[Girodin]

The usual step up would be from less lethal to lethal.

BTW the fact that some people can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that there are inherient advantages or disadvantages to each is just staggering. There are trade offs with each and depending on the task one may be more well suited than the other.

I have given my two cents more than once on what I see as advantages of each. I will close by pointing out that an otherwise stock saiga bumps you into open class at three gun. Those that argue toping off does away with the advatage of the speed of a box mag reload please explain why an otherwise stock gun moves you to open if there is not a clear advatage in that area.

BTW for HD I dont think one offers a huge advantage over the other since one is unlikely to need 8+ shots. One can find a a good pump for much less money and it is ready out of the box. I have both and like both. I keep a S12 by my bed. Anyone that thinks eather wont serve adequately is sadly mistaken. I never thought I would have gone away from a 870 18.5" barrel but the saiga 12 won me over. Plus it is more fun to shoot. Training and shooting will do more for you than what gun you have every time.

It is interesting that the Saiga seems to get some peoples blood pumping.

Now I think there is a interesting discussion to be had for things like three gun, zombies, red dawn, etc.

[Boats]

I have given my two cents more than once on what I see as advantages of each. I will close by pointing out that an otherwise stock saiga bumps you into open class at three gun. Those that argue toping off does away with the advatage of the speed of a box mag reload please explain why an otherwise stock gun moves you to open if there is not a clear advatage in that area.


Topping off doesn't negate the advantage, it just makes it less substantial than the proponents argue it is. Three gun is a game. Games need rules to pit like equipped competitors against one another to see who the better shooter is. A three gun course of fire is fantasy play acting with a purpose.

But like you alluded to, in the real world, reloading after six, eight, ten or even twenty 12 gauge shots is something that will most likely be something explained to the cops or a DA.

[rbernie]

Guys- I tried to gracefully cut this thread off without having to lock it. It looked like maybe, just maybe, we were all going to be mature enough to walk away and just agree to disagree without having to force a mod to lock the dang thread.

Guess not.