Accidental Discharge


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rennaissancemann
September 28, 2003, 07:47 PM
Why they’re called the 4 rules instead of the 4 suggestions…

After carrying a Glock as my CCW for the last couple of weeks, I decided to switch to my P7M8. Locked the slide back, inserted a magazine, pointed the muzzle in a safe direction with my finger off the trigger, and tripped the front strap to chamber a round…

BOOM

So, I stand in place and take inventory. Nobody struck by a ricochet, I’m not injured. OK, that taken care of, I check to make sure my finger is off of the trigger, then I remove the magazine, and eject the chambered round. Next I ask myself how this managed to happen. My first thought is that I’ve had a mental lapse and had my finger on the trigger when I tripped the front strap. I visualized the sequence in my head and, no my finger was indexed alongside the frame.

Then Tamara shows me the spent case with the bulged base.

Conclusion, I’ve had an honest-to-God weapons malfunction where my pistol slam fired as the slide closed. The most likely cause was debris in the striker assembly.

Bottom line…

No personal injuries, no property damage, just an adrenaline dump and ringing eardrums. Thank you Jeff Cooper.

Respectfully,

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Marko Kloos
September 28, 2003, 07:54 PM
Having had a certified ND before, I can attest that the loudest sound in the world is a "BOOM" when you expect a "click" or "snap".

That honks. I'm glad that everybody was OK, and nothing essential was perforated. Guns are mechanical devices, and all of those fail every once in a while. I hope you don't lose faith in that P7 after that AD...statistically, you'll be able to carry that thing for another 450 years now without another AD.

Betty
September 28, 2003, 08:06 PM
Glad you followed the Four Rules and nothing bad happened.

I had an AD when a Ruger MkI slam fired. Thank goodness for sticking to the Rules.

Travis McGee
September 28, 2003, 08:06 PM
You ain't kidding about the loudest sound being a BOOM instead of a click!

The muzzle was pointing in a safe direction, and that's the bottom line, the last line of defense against an accidental injury or a death.

Mark Tyson
September 28, 2003, 08:13 PM
Glad you're okay, and glad you followed the rules. I've heard about slam fires but never met anyone who experienced one.

Oleg Volk
September 28, 2003, 08:18 PM
Glad you are OK, hope no permanent hearing damage. Have OSHA sue BATFE on your behalf for making gunfire a health hazard by their enforcement of NFA34.

sturmruger
September 28, 2003, 08:44 PM
My brother had something similar happen. He put a nice whole in the wall. Are you going to need to get out the spackle or were you outside??

4v50 Gary
September 28, 2003, 08:46 PM
Truly an accidental discharge and not a negligent discharge. Glad no one is hurt and delighted you exercised proper muzzle control.

ChickenHawk
September 28, 2003, 09:03 PM
I guess I never really considered that there was much of a difference between an AD and an ND but this makes the case pretty clearly.

Glad no one was injured (not counting your wits!).

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

Chipperman
September 28, 2003, 09:17 PM
"I guess I never really considered that there was much of a difference between an AD and an ND"

You're right. 99% of the AD's are actually ND's.


"Then Tamara shows me the spent case with the bulged base."

Why would the base bulge if it was just a slam fire? There must have ben something wrong with that cartridge.

Tamara
September 28, 2003, 09:22 PM
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

;)

Today's lessons:

1) That bit about "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction" ain't just talkin' to hear your head roar.

2) All guns can malf. All of them. "But mine's an HKEdBrownSIGSauerLesBaer..." I don't care. All guns... :scrutiny:

3) If you follow the four rules all of the time, the only thing that can get wounded is your dignity. And your underwear.

Tamara
September 28, 2003, 09:23 PM
Why would the base bulge if it was just a slam fire? There must have ben something wrong with that cartridge.

Because it fired out of battery, while the case was only halfway in the chamber.

I will try and provide detailed pics of the case, the projo, and the impact zone in the not-too-distant future.

rennaissancemann
September 29, 2003, 09:44 AM
Marko

I hope you don't lose faith in that P7 after that AD...statistically, you'll be able to carry that thing for another 450 years now without another AD.

Spoken with the pride of good German craftsmanship, and no… I haven’t lost faith in my P7, but I may step up my timeline of having the pistol Bodycoted after Shannon does a complete strip, clean, and inspection.


sturmruger

Are you going to need to get out the spackle or were you outside?

I was inside when it happened, but no spackle is required. When the P7 discharged, the bullet missed the safe I was standing in front of, grazed a plywood divider, hit the back wall and rebounded out into the room and ended up on the floor about a foot and a half behind me. Following the four rules had a lot to do with why no one was hurt, but luck or divine intervention had a hand in that as well given the path that the bullet followed. I’m now looking at how I want to install a clearing station near the safe.


Regards,

Rebel Gunman HK
September 29, 2003, 11:05 AM
I had my first "neglegent discharge a while back". Always said, that Im to smart for that, it will never happened to me. But it did. Took the magazine out of my .22 pistol cleared the chamber and was dry firing it in my Bro's room. When I was done screwin around I put the mag back in and chambered a round. Put the gun down on the bed and went to the bathroom. Was real tired and not paying attention, went back to the pistol completely forgetting I had reloaded it and did not reinspect like I always do... And shot my Bro's brand new guitar case. What a night:banghead:
I guess the lessoned learned is dont screw areound with guns when you're tired and dont have your head in the game.

El Tejon
September 29, 2003, 11:25 AM
ren, glad everyone is O.K. From my own experience, may I suggest a barrel of sand?:D

WhoKnowsWho
September 29, 2003, 12:08 PM
Does that barrel of sand thing actually work? I need something to point at when I chamber a round in the house.

rennaissancemann
September 29, 2003, 12:13 PM
Your experience matches my own. I’m planning to use a 5 gallon bucket full of sand.

regards

El Tejon
September 29, 2003, 01:26 PM
Who, yes, if you use it properly. I saw one doggie shoot another coming off sentry many moons ago (standing opposite each other).:eek:

ren, you may want something bigger. If go with 5 gal, put sandbags (or that play sand you get at Lowe's) under bucket that way if miss will not ric off concrete floor ("KABONG!").:uhoh:

Keith
September 29, 2003, 01:49 PM
Wow!

Have you detail stripped the gun to make sure your suspicion about the cause is correct?
Not being able to find the cause would be like a cold stone in my stomach - know what I mean? I'd never really trust the gun until I was convinced I knew what caused the malf.

Keith

Quartus
September 29, 2003, 02:19 PM
5 gal bucket of sand will work fine IF you always aim straight down. If you aim at a shallow angle, well, even a 55 gallon drum of sand may not be enough.

Zer000
September 29, 2003, 02:36 PM
I too need a safe direction to chamber a round in, the problem is I live in an apartment on the second floor, so down definetly is not a safe direction. I've been pointing at the wall facing the parking lot, but that still worries me. Any suggestions?

Keith
September 29, 2003, 02:39 PM
I live in an apartment on the second floor, so down definetly is not a safe direction. I've been pointing at the wall facing the parking lot, but that still worries me. Any suggestions?

Does your neighbor have a cat you can borrow?

Keith

rennaissancemann
September 29, 2003, 03:00 PM
Keith
Detail stripping a P7M8 is out of my skill set envelope, hence the reference to sending it to my local gunsmith (Shannon).

Zer000
IIRC Gunsite used to sell a Kevlar panel that you could hang on the wall like a picture for use as a safe backstop when dry firing. This was my first thought on what to use in the house, but as I'm on the bottom floor of a house it seemed like the bucket of sand was a more economical option for me.

Field Expedient Clearing Barrel
A 5 gallon plastic bucket filled with dry playground sand and covered with a plastic lid with a bunghole. The muzzle goes in the hole, you point the muzzle at the center of the bottom of the bucket and either chamber a round or dry fire after clearing the chamber. It goes without saying, or should, that you don't stick the muzzle into the sand when you do this.

Regards

Balog
September 29, 2003, 03:09 PM
Does your neighbor have a cat you can borrow?


Keith! That's terrible! A single cat wouldn't stop a round, you'd need multiple cats lined up!

Oleg Volk
September 29, 2003, 03:12 PM
Nearest neighbor is Tam and her cats come with an armed escort.

greyhound
September 29, 2003, 03:14 PM
I always aim straight down at my bed(2nd floor) when chambering. I figure if a slam fire it has to go through:

bed, floorboard, ceiling, floorboard, ceiling, then the all concrete basement.
Assuming it goes straight, of course.

I live alone so I just make sure the dog is nearby.

I still think "what if" each and every time.

Think I might want to do the sand bucket thing and keep it in the basement.

Quartus
September 29, 2003, 03:17 PM
the problem is I live in an apartment on the second floor, so down definetly is not a safe direction.


Down into a bucket of sand sounds a lot safer to me than OUT through a wall into a parking lot and beyond.

Unless you are shooting something that might go through a bucket of sand. But I don't think a .44 mag would do that, much less a 9mm or .45.


For an extra margin of safety, how about pouring a 4" layer of concrete in the bottom? OR get a 1/2" steel plate to fit the bottom. Then sand over the top.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 29, 2003, 03:20 PM
Having had a certified ND before, I can attest that the loudest sound in the world is a "BOOM" when you expect a "click" or "snap".

One of the instructors I've had (former SBS) insists that the click or snap when you were expecting a BOOM is even louder.


For everyone who is looking for an aparment-safe backstop to clear a weapon, TV tubes do a very good job of stopping bullets and I've seen TVs that have successfully stopped 7.62x39mm fired from an AK at three feet. Even better, if you should have a AD/ND you didn't lose anything important.

Keith
September 29, 2003, 03:48 PM
TV tubes do a very good job of stopping bullets

Ah yes, we call that an "Elvis"...

Keith

Kevlarman
September 29, 2003, 03:51 PM
Buy one of those cheapie Kevlar vests off eBay or something. That's what I did.

hso
September 29, 2003, 04:17 PM
For the belt and suspenders crowd - Cheapie kevlar vest with a 5 gal bucket of sand set on it?

or

A 38"x36" piece of kevlar fabric folded into the bottom of the bucket with the sand on top of it. The kevlar fabric can be had for less than $20 and the sand is even cheaper. http://www.shopmaninc.com/kevlar.html

rennaissancemann
October 17, 2003, 11:03 AM
An examination of my P7M8 by my gunsmith (Shannon), led to the discovery of a bent firing pin safety spring... as in 90 degrees bent. In Shannon's opinion, this probably occured when the pistol was last detail stripped. Apparently, the planets all came into allignment and the pistol malfunctioned. HK's customer service has been less than exemplary in my case, and it looks like Shannon will be winding me a replacement firing pin safety spring.

Respectfully,

sm
October 17, 2003, 11:32 AM
4 rules work if used as proven in this case. Glad you're ok.

I have for years used a clearing bucket , get ribbed because I do, but I still use it.
A couple for instance has the wicker locker thingie with the botton lined with bricks, atop that is rubber tote filled with play sand.

For temporary use I have a friend bldg a house , he is in a 2 story apt. until then, the two bottom drawers of a file cabinet are filled with sand bags, bricks toward back of drawer.

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