Shooting to defend four legged friends

Hello All;

I was wondering if anyone has had to use their firearms to defend their pets from varmints. And to any of the LE out there, is it legal (in your jurisdiction).

There was a story on last nights news here in SE Michigan about how coyotes are on the prowl and the Sheriff's Dept was going to set up a program where you can report a sighting and they will come out with some suppressed and scoped weapon (maybe sub sonic 22?) and dispatch the critter for you. They had a story of how a woman witnessed a coyote mangle and take off with her Yorkie or some such toy breed.

My hypothetical is this, you live in a suburban area, you came back from running errands and you are still carrying (if you don't already carry in the house) and you see a coyote or other animal attacking your pet X (cat, toy breed, old dog that can't take care of itself anymore, etc...). Can you blast it?

I'm not talking about a coyote walking down the street or sniffing in a trash can, one actively attacking. If you see one walking around, call Animal Control.

It kinda crosses the line but does it. I think that pets are a very important part of some peoples lives. They may take the responsibility of defending their loved ones to mean their four legged friends too.

Again, hypothetical and academic. I'm not going to rely on anyone's advice or opinion, I'm just curious to what everyone thinks.

Regards.

P.S. there are a lot of threads about shooting animals/pets in SD or in defense of another human, but nothing that I could see about shooting to defend a pet.

I have no idea about Michigan.

However, it can be perfectly legal to defend your domestic animals or livestock from predators.

Problems arise when those predators are protected as endangered species. That's when you want to get the hell out of there.

Let's reiterate so this stays open: This is about PROTECTION OF YOUR PET FROM WILD ANIMALS!!!

These kinda threads have a tendency to get hot. Quick.


That said... no. I've never had to shoot another animal to protect one of mine. Came darn close about a week ago, though.

Now, I remember when I was little... watching my dad put a couple of 12GA slugs into a pack of wild dogs that was ripping our next-door neighbors' cat apart, limb from limb.

Cat didn't make it.

Neither did the wild dogs.

The situation sucked all around, but at least we knew it wouldn't happen again.

If it's within the city limits, most places have laws against discharging a weapon of any kind. Your best bet is to check with your local Police Dept. and see what they have to offer in the way of advise.

My dogs are my kids, and if something or someone is about to attack and seriously harm one of them, then I'm going to defend them.

One of my dogs is a Pit Bull rescue that has turned out to be so sweet that she'll back off from a fight with our other dogs if she can. She has the disposition of a lap dog Yorkie.
While she could easily defend herself against a typical Coyote and tear it apart, I don't think she would due to her disposition, so I am very protective of her to keep her from attacks by stray animals of any type.

And if I had to defend one of my "kids", I'd use whatever weapon I had at hand. It would be nice if all it took is a stick, but whatever, I'm going to defend my kids.

If there's a wild animal tearing some poor animal to shreds like that poor cat or even worse, one of my pets;(I have a chihuahua and two cats) you better bet your life that I WILL empty my firearm into that animal in an effort to save the life of my beloved pets. Even if my pet doesn't make it, at least there will be one less foul beast(s) that are stalking other unsuspecting family pets.
I wouldn't limit this reaction to wild animals though. If some trashy neighbors dog or cat (you all know the types-pitbulls, dobermans, rottweilers, etc...) attacked one of my pets while I'm minding my own business walking them, I WILL use my firearm to take care of business. Not my fault that they either train or keep their animal that recklessly attacks anybody or anything that wanders by.
And as far as fines go, I'd gladly pay whatever fine they want to impose on me for saving a life, even if it is for a four legged friend's life. Money is money, life is life.

I will do whatever is a reasonable and necessary for the protection of my family and pets. Sometimes there isn't enough time to call 911 when seconds count you do what you have to do.

Take my advice and use a rake, hoe, or baseball bat. You can get the job done with no legal repercussions.

The trouble with coyotes and most other varmits/etc is that they don't hang around til the police get there with their approved weapons, nor do they cease their attack while you phone the police.

Take my advice and use a rake, hoe, or baseball bat. You can get the job done with no legal repercussions.

I don't carry rakes, hoes or baseball bats when I'm walking my beagles. I carry a .45, and that's what I'll use, thank you.

Its highly unlikely you will have a chance to defend your pet if its taken my a coyote or other wild predator as they generally don't hang around with their prey or eat them on the spot. Cats and small dogs are like take out food to larger predators and they will take them to a safe location to consume. By the time you get your gun they'll be long out of your sight and if you manage to track them down they won't hang around waiting for you but you may find remains of your pet.

I've have friends that have lost their pets to coyotes as their homes border an open desert preserve area. The smart cats stay in the house.

Now dog packs or stray dogs will likely hang around as they have no fear of humans. Stray dogs aren't usually killing for food but out of natural aggressiveness or territorial instinct.

I shot a coiled copper-head with a P3AT, almost out from under my Boxer's nose.
On a hiking trail just inside the city limits.

Also had a mother bobcat come within 30 feet of my dog on the same trail once.
She had a gun pointed at her until she backed off.

No repercussions, and I'd do the same thing all over again.

rc

Coyotes can be shot year round in NH. It doesn't have to be attacking your pet. If I see a coyote in my yard, I'm shooting it. I also live in a pretty rural area. I hear gunshots off in the distance all the time and year round.

I've never had to do this, but it happens a lot in Colorado.

I've heard of people having to kill bears, cougars, coyotes, and of course violent domestic dogs that have attacked a pet or livestock.

The authorities usually don't have near the problem with it as the media seems to have.

In the Portland Metro area of Oregon, it's illegal to discharge a firearm within city limits, but the entire state of Oregon has an open season all year long on coyotes. So, killing the coyote might not be illegal but discharging a firearm to do it might be.

If it were me, and I lived within city limits, I was carrying my CCW and my 30 lb. Welsh Corgi was being attacked by a coyote (or any larger animal that was tresspassing on my property), I wouldn't hesitate to use my firearm. Defending my 4-legged best friend's life is worth the repurcussions of discharging a firearm within city limits.

One of the reasons I got a CCW was to protect myself and my dog when we are out for a walk. Most of the critters in the neighborhood are fine, but there are a few rather nasty ones. If they happen to have gotten loose while I'm out with my 10 y/o Golden Retriever, it's likely to be a nasty encounter. There are a pair of dogs down the street that have already killed a neighbors pet when they got loose.

I'll try and shout them off, but if that doesn't work the next "bark" they hear will be from my Glock 26. I load it with frangable ammo for the walks to reduce the chance of any miss from skipping off through the neighborhood.

Awhile back my little lab scared up a rock chuck that jumped on her head like a racoon and the blood started flying. I wacked that chuck with a shovel and put him out of my dogs misery.
On a side note, I would not hesitate to use a .22 rimfire with subsonics on an attacking coyote based on my experience with crows.
In California it is legal to shoot crows if they are harassing your pets, predating you crops, garden or ornamentals or in general, causing a nuisance. It is also against the law to discharge a firearm in city limits where I live unless the situation is covered under another law ie... defending yourself in your home or elsewhere with your legally carried concealed weapon.
I have shot plenty of crows out of a tree in my yard because there were 5-10 of them squaking like crazy and waking me up too early in the morning.
I use .22 subsonic rounds. My neighbors all say thanks.
If a cop ever shows up to talk to me, I'll refer to the California state game regs and hope for the best.

Had a friend who killed his neighbors Rotties because they jumped the fence and attacked his German shepherd. He ended up in court and had to pay the vet bill, one of the dogs crawled home and died at the vet's office, plus the cost of both dogs.

It seems that the only way it is legal to shoot a dog that attacks an animal in Columbia County, Florida is if it is attacking, or even harassing, a dairy cow. Apparently the dairy farmers have strong influence with the county commissioners.

The moral of that story is; if a domestic animal comes onto your property and you shoot it make sure you do one of two things. Either make darn sure it's dead and bury it where it won't be found, or call the cops and tell them you just shot your neighbor's dog because it was coming at you and you felt sufficiently threatened. Don't even mention that your dog was involved.

As for wild varmints, I've shot a few that were causing trouble around the farm and ranch in my day, mostly vermin like opossums and raccoons. Once I even had a neighbor who owned two black bears that were prone to getting loose and terrorizing the neighborhood (He claimed he was a trainer and they were performing bears. The only trick I know of that they performed on a regular basis was defeating the lock on their enclosure.). I threatened to shoot them a couple of times because they would come down and mess with my bird dogs and take their food. The old guy who lived up the road beat me to it, and killed one of them. Animal control finally took the other (The man who shot the one used a 12 gauge with a pumpkin ball).

In Colorado, I shot my share of coyotes. I used my model 700 30.06. I don't think I'd want to dispatch a coyote with a .22 subsonic round. They aren't large as far as dogs go, but they are big enough, and can be mean enough, that I want to make sure they go down and stay down.

Coyotes aren't rare or endangered, I have no problem with killing one that gets too comfortable living around inhabited areas, (especially if they harass or attack pets) or those that mess with live stock.

I have pretty much always lived in rural areas. It was, and is, SOP to handle problem animals with a weapon, whether whacking a mole with a shovel or using a firearm. However, I will add two, no three, caveats.

1.) If you have a "nuisance" animal rather than a "problem" animal, call Fish & Game first. Classic "nuisance animal", in my case have been several raccoons who were living high of the hog by ransacking my garbage can and compost several times a week. F&G came out and live trapped 'em and hauled 'em off to EBFE to live out their lives wild. Classic "problem" animal was a another raccoon, years earlier, which showed all signs of being rabid. Called the dogs in, shut 'em in the house, grabbed a shotgun and killed the animal. Then called F&G, who came out, put on protective gear, and collected the corpse (it did turn out the animal was rabid). They were highly complimentary of my actions. Note: the only other time I had to deal with a problem animal situation was when I came upon two feral dogs attacking a little gelding on the ranch I was working on. 30-30 put an end to that, pronto, but almost lost the gelding to loss of blood (local horse vet was a miracle worker). The reason I say this is that most of the time - like 90% to 10% - when I've had to put an animal down is because they were either very sick or previously wounded.

2.) If you don't want do wade through pages and pages of indecipherable philadelphia lawyer/legislative legalese, talk to your local Fish & Game and/or Animal Control people about the does and dont's in your area. I have found that they are very knowledgeable, speak English that I can understand, and can fill you in in about ten minutes.

3.) As always, use good judgement prior to committing an act of violence.

One other thing: none of the above (except #3) even remotely applies to urban areas. I would imagine you would get your arse into a major sling if you applied country logic in those areas.


isher

Take my advice and use a rake, hoe, or baseball bat. You can get the job done with no legal repercussions.

If those are available... If not I will most likely put a round in the ground and if that doesn't scare the animal off, it's toast. It won't scare mine off, they love gunfire. BTW I'm not recommending warning shots in any defensive situation but I believe it would be OK if it meant defending your domestic animals against wild ones.

That's my opinion and I will probably be criticized in my decision to put a round in the ground before the wild animal in this situation but I will stand behind my decision.

I've shot, stoned, and otherwise killed rattlesnakes that were in close proximity to my dogs. I generally carry a 308 or 30-06 while dog walking, and wouldnt hesitate to protect them from various predatory varmints. One local lady had 2 Mt Lions stalk her and her dogs recently. That was a short distance from where I often walk. City limits arent an issue. I'm a little ways out of them. Maybe 30 minutes. At 65 mph.

While it is legal to kill a domestic dog for molesting livestock, ranchers know the best policy is
"Shoot fast, bury deep, don't talk." The same might apply to killing a wild predator in defense of your pet. At least within city limits.

well, first, there is the state wide firearm discharging (safety) rule is 150 yards (see DNR firearms rules and regulations). if there is a building within 150 yards, you simply can not shoot a firearm (except if it your own outbuilding). so baiscly, if you even live in the suburbs, you really can not even fire a pelet gun (considered a firearm in mich) within those limits. and of course, if your city (or township) has other restrictions, those apply also. the same would apply to a motor vehicle if you were near a road. now, if you live out in the country...... there, nobody would say anything anyway. now, if it was attacking your kids, i shure wouldn't worry about ANY dumb law. i would rather explain it to a jury of my peers if it ever got that far (which i really doubt it would). but if you endanger another persons life (even if it is only theroetical) for your puppy, i think you are "going to be in a heap of trouble boy"! isn't gustoppo michigan wonderful!?

There's always a chance that a Coyote attacking in a suburban area may have rabies. That should always be taken into consideration.

My lab is gone now (old age), but I remember seeing him fight. There's no way I could've taken a shot into a mess like that without possibly hitting him. I always just waded in with a few kicks and separated them.

bury them in your garden

I watched my 120lb. Rottwieler tear up a coyote that tried to lure it out of camp. At no point did I think intervention on m part was necessary. I also saw some wild dogs tear my friends cat apart in the city limits, called animal control and it was 28 hrs. before they sent an officer out.

If I were going to discharge a firearm in a populated area when human life is NOT in danger I would want some time to carefully think out a safe firing lane, to consider my firearm choices (rifle/rimfire/shotgun/pistol) and ammunition selection (frangible/shot size/etc.) and probably to don hearing & eye protection.

The idea of pulling out a carry pistol and blasting away at a coyote in a backyard is not an appealing one to me. Where I live (typical suburbia), such an action would be considerable danger. Not only to people, but also to the pets in other nearby back yards.

In my area we have leash laws. Most urban and suburban areas do. I walk my dogs on a 6 foot chain leash. If another animal comes within 6 feet of me and attacks, its either getting a swift kick or a 38 slug. I'll know which by the time it reaches me.

A vicious animal attacking within 6 feet will meet anyones definition of "fear of imminent bodily injury or death."

I wouldn't even think twice. Godwilling, I wouldn't hit my dog and kill the threat. Nobody has to know too much. Just load up the dead threat, take a trip down the road and toss it in some bushes. Of course, "suburban" where I live means a house every 2-300 yards. Either way, I think the cops would be understanding in a situation like that.

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't advocate just pulling out your pistol and blasting holes in the varmint that comes at Fido within city limits. Though I don't recommend getting between your dog and another animal. I've picked up plenty of people who needed lots of stitches for that reason when I worked on the big orange and white bus.

I assumed that since we were talking about wild animals, we were talking about out in the country, though with encroachment on wild lands by cities the two are not mutually exclusive (I've seen wild bob cats running loose in Gainesville, Florida, and they weren't rabid. The city just butts up to the woods in certain areas and it's easier to scavenge out of garbage cans and steal pet food than hunt.).

I now live in a city and would only use my weapon if that was my only choice, and I knew darn well where the bullet is going after it goes through the attacking wild animal/vicious dog that attacks my dog.

Also, remember, in the eyes of the law I have a bit more right to defend my dog than most people because she's a service dog. I can not only defend her from the neighbor's uncontrolled pet, I can have the neighbor arrested on a third degree felony if they allow their vicious animal to attack my Great Dane even through neglect rather than malice. Service dogs are not pets under the law and have special protections in place in Florida because of their function.

When I was a kid, I was so proud of my dad who shot a wild dog at about 100yards who was chasing our calves in calving season. He made this 100 yard shot with his (now my) Universal M1 Carbine. Now for many of you all, hitting a trotting dog at 100 yards with iron sights isn't going to be a tremendous challenge. However for my old man, RIP, this was like the best shot he ever made in his entire life (total "city guy" until he was about 40). He was proud too. One of those father son moments you know.

As far as legal, we were on our property shooting a wild dog not a wolf or something on public land. People keep.

Had a bunch of 'coon hounds massacre all of our kittens one night hooked up to a bunch of hunters hunting on our land without permission. My dad had the Universal in hand that night as well but he knew the relative value of a trained hunting dog vs a bunch of kittens. He was extremely mad and locked those dogs in our milk house with all the dead kittens and made the hunters come up and ask for the dogs back and told them to stay off the property. He wisely had the gun pointed at the ground through it all...the hunters had their guns in hand as well but cool heads prevailed. Had he shot one of those dogs, there'd been trouble.

while it is legal to kill a domestic dog for molesting livestock, ranchers know the best policy is
"shoot fast, bury deep, don't talk."

exactly

I would not hesitate to shoot a "wild" dog attacking my dog on my property.

My pure-bred german shepherd was attacked years ago when I was about 12 by two large labs owned by my neighbor. I heard them fighting and grabbed my bb pistol (all I had) and ran outside and scared them off. Unfortunately, they had bit my dog's foot clear thru to her artery and she was bleeding to death. My dad threw her in the back of the car and we drove down to the vet and he fixed her up for a couple hundred bucks.

The neighbor and his wife drove over to our house later that day on their four wheeler and asked about our dog because "their dog had blood on its face." We said heck yes your dog jumped ours and it better not happen again.

The idea of pulling out a carry pistol and blasting away at a coyote in a backyard is not an appealing one to me.
Actually the idea of pulling out a carry pistol and blasting away at a guy with a gun trying to rob me in a parking lot isn't really "an appealing one to me" either. :p

I live a couple blocks from Garden of the Gods, we see LOTS of wildlife in our neighborhood and neighbors have reported having cats taken by coyotes. I wouldn't hesitate to kill one in my yard if my dog was threatened but I would probably tell the police I felt personally threatened when I shot it (and I probably would since I'd be swooping in to scoop up the dog ... he's just a pup ya know).

Most cities have laws against discharging a firearm within the city limits, but most also make exception for self defense shootings.

But these things vary WILDLY from state to state (heck, city to city) so you might want to pose the question to the local police (or DAs office, or consult the family lawyer if you have one) and see what they say. If you have a CCW they should understand why you're asking such questions.

I live right next door to my parents small farm. They have lots of cats & chickens which are often targets of Coyotes, Fox, raccoons...etc. Killing predators off my back porch has become a hobby during the summer. SKS with winchester soft points for the Coyotes (they tend to keep their distance from the house making for longer shots) and 12ga 00 buck for the Raccoons and Foxes.

While she could easily defend herself against a typical Coyote and tear it apart, I don't think she would due to her disposition,

she might surprise you i have a hound who is such a sissy she submits to cats but in a fight shes a different story. surprised me as well as the other dog.




i have a lab husky who killed yotes when she was younger but she had 2 other dogs to help run em down. and you would never think minnie mouse would hurt a fly.

i use plastic buckshot to breqak up dog fights after getting gnawed a few times. works good no fatalities but if i had to i could put the muzzle on an animal and end it forever

If your property is open and close to undeveloped land, the coyotes will sometimes send a smaller, weaker member of the pack out to lure your dog away from the house then the rest of them pounce.

Another thing to consider is the exposure to disease ... if a coyote is gnawing on your dog he's probably exposing your dog to all sorts of unpleasant little microbes.

I have shot a wild dog for "sniffin" round where he shouldn't be, namely my best girl when she's in season ! There are enough mutts to go around, and then some .

Love that line in a 'South Park' episode when they took the boys hunting -"They were coming right for me!"

Heck, I'd shoot 'em just for showing up. Lost all my chickens save one to 'pet' cats this last year - even though I've done all I can except locking them up in the garage. All I have left is one really 'cocky' rooster and i don't think they mess with him.

I have one of those break-barrel Gamos with the 'raptor' loads, 1200 FPS and has a flashlight and laser on it _ pic -
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/WarHall/th_100_1770.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m265/WarHall/?action=view&current=100_1770.jpg) (Behind the .22) And regularly go out in the yard with it. Yes, I had a neighbor call it in on me, the PD showed up and I told them what I was doing, They played a round of good cop - bad cop with me and left. Not much there. I don't really want them to show up again, that might start a 'pattern', I'm sure. Discretion is always better.

I would, and have. The latest was a female coyote which was trying to lure my dogs out. She was so bold, she didn't leave when my wife called the dogs back, and she was only 100 yards away.

Unfortunately for her, she collided with a 100 gr Ballistic Tip going 3300 fps a few seconds later.

Another time, I had a coyote chasing my 35 lb Blue Heeler. I shot at it with my Mini 14, but missed. (I really need to take that scope off and put a red dot on it.)

I got this picture about a week ago with a StealthCam about a half mile from the house: Ignore the date and time on the picture, I had changed batteries and forgot to reset them.


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d59/lsashcraft/jan09_coyote.jpg

I didn't read all of the other replies, so my apologies if this has already been mentioned. But, I recall an incident here in CO where someone shot either a Mt Lion or a coyote when it attacked his dog. He ended up being fined for something along the lines of destruction of wildlife.

I wish I could find the story right now, but I remember being bothered by the outcome at the time. It was also noteworthy to mention that it appeared that these issues would not have applied if the "pet" was livestock!

Anyway, I guess you just have to articulate why you felt that the mountain lion was a threat to you (who was attached to the dog on a 6ft leash --- seems reasonable to me).

Yes, if I could safely do so without risking human life. Human life trumps my dog; my dog trumps ANY law.

With very minor exceptions in the USA, domestic pets are considered personal property. If your state allows you to discharge your weapon to protect personal property....
Okay, that said, a lose and threatening dog is charging your poodle. Why would you not be worried you may be injured or killed also? SO then you are in fear for your life and protecting yourself if you use your weapon.
I think you would stand a good chance of being arrested or charged under "endangering children" type of violation if you say you were defending your dog. If you are defending yourself it is less likely Officer Stoneheart will arrest you I think...

what kinda chickens are getting nailed by cats? or maybe i should ask what kinda cats?

I would have to take the attitude in an animal would attack and/or kill a pet animal heavy with human scent the odds are good that it would attack one of my children.

When I lived on the farm a pack of coyote dogs (hybrid between coyotes and domestic dogs) was slinking towards my then five day old colt and it's mother. They were watching the mare, they should have been paying attention to my grandfather and his Garand.

Had a bunch of 'coon hounds massacre all of our kittens one night hooked up to a bunch of hunters hunting on our land without permission. My dad had the Universal in hand that night as well but he knew the relative value of a trained hunting dog vs a bunch of kittens. He was extremely mad and locked those dogs in our milk house with all the dead kittens and made the hunters come up and ask for the dogs back and told them to stay off the property. He wisely had the gun pointed at the ground through it all...the hunters had their guns in hand as well but cool heads prevailed. Had he shot one of those dogs, there'd been trouble.

I would've shot those dogs (maybe not all of them). As far as those trespassing hunters go, I'd have made them leave their guns behind or they would have had some serious firepower aimed in their direction. There's no way I would allow some trespassing jerks to intimidate me on MY freaking property!!:cuss: They should be the ones with hat in hand, to come and apologize for their mutts attacking my animals.

King Gidora,
1 I agree except the part about pits should be chained and caged. You should spend some time with them most are sweet dogs

2 just not true lots of types of dogs can kill coyotes, they are not very large and do not always hunt in packs

3 wrong again, snakebites are actually MORE toxic to dogs(smaller wt) copperhead venom is not that potent(still bad but nothing like pit vipers)

4 I agree, except about rabies vaccination, it has proven very reliable for animals and humans, further being bit by a rabid animal in no way gaurntees infection(in fact if you wash with soap the odds are amazingly in your favor)

6 You must have some coons in OH

Please dont take this as a personal attack but I wanted to correct your errors(cept for 1 that is just my personal opinion :) )

Human life trumps my dog; my dog trumps ANY law.

I like that!

I live in the country (SW Michigan) with dogs in the house, cats and horses in the barn and pastures. I deal with woodchucks and at worst feral dogs and coyotes. I can dispatch most issues with my 22lr or a pistol but sometimes you just gotta love a bit bigger levergun. When it comes to protecting one of MY animals on MY property (or a public thoroughfare ) I do not hesitate to do so.

I haven't and never would hesitate to defend my dogs,
luckily I don't live in a city so I don't have to worry about the legality of it.

In many situations a single warning shot will quickly end just about any dog fight. But if the need arises, I will do whatever it takes to protect my dogs. That being said, I'm in no hurry to kill a known neighbors dog, as I would hope that they would provide my dog the same discretion.

I love my dogs as much as my guns!

I watched my old Red Healer fight a coyote in the street. That coyote got his butt kicked and was runnin' before I could even get my gun. Great dog, rest her soul......

As a kid I had to on more than one occasion.

I grew up in rural Texas, which was a great place for people to dump their dogs when they decided they no longer wanted them and they'd go feral; we had a pretty serious problem with wild dogs.

If you've never encountered a pack of wild dogs I hope you never do. Since they were domesticated at some point they have no fear of humans or house pets and have a no tolerance for dogs not in the pack. They're ferocious.

I learned a couple of things from my encounters: a semi-auto .22 rifle is a great weapon AND the importance of shot placement. Eventually I moved up in caliber, but that Marlin .22 remains one of my favorites to this day.

Take care,
DFW1911

I watch my old Red Healer fight a coyote in the street. That coyote got his butt kicked and was runnin' before I could even get my gun. Great dog, rest her soul......
Amen. My little Blue Heeler weighs in at 35 lbs. She tangled with a coyote a couple years ago. I don't know what the coyote looked like, but Millie still has a droopy ear. I have to assume the yote got the worst of it.

Coyotes are smart, too smart to tangle with a dog one on one. Normally, they outnumber and confuse their prey.

About three years ago, I noticed my dogs were in the neighbor's pasture. My big dog, Howard, was sitting between two coyotes while another circled them. Millie was barking her head off, telling him to get his butt outa there.

One of the sitting yotes collided with one of my Ballistics Tips mentioned above. The circling yote took off at a run, and I barely missed him at about 300 yards.

Yes I would. I grew up in,and still live in, the country. Coydogs (feral dogs mixed with Coyote) have always been a problem.

I keep my "beater" Bubba'd 8mm Mauser by the back door for just that purpose.

Actually the idea of pulling out a carry pistol and blasting away at a guy with a gun trying to rob me in a parking lot isn't really "an appealing one to me" either.My point is that someone shooting a pistol in their back yard in my neighborhood is endangering not only human life but also the lives of other pets in the area.Most cities have laws against discharging a firearm within the city limits, but most also make exception for self defense shootings.I'm not aware of any locales that legally equate shooting to protect a pet with shooting in self defense.Yes, if I could safely do so without risking human life. Human life trumps my dog...Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

is it legal to kill a human being whos trying to kill my pets? SD of dog/cat may look sketchy.

Quote:
Yes, if I could safely do so without risking human life. Human life trumps my dog; my dog trumps ANY law.

+1 .


Short of Animals having Rights, My Dog is a Family Member

is it legal to kill a human being whos trying to kill my pets? SD of dog/cat may look sketchy.
If it's legal to shoot somebody in your jurisdication for destruction/theft of property than I'd imagine that it would be legal to do so if they are trying to kill to your pets. Pets are property. It'd be no different than if somebody came up to your house and started tearing at it with a sledge hammer. Would you sit there and let them continue destroying your property?

if someone was trying to kill one of my pets id use lethal force anyway, good to know its legal

if someone was trying to kill one of my pets id use lethal force anyway, good to know its legalThere was a big "IF" at the beginning of the post you're responding to.If it's legal to shoot somebody in your jurisdication for destruction/theft of property than I'd imagine that it would be legal to do so if they are trying to kill to your pets.It's not all that common for it to be legal to shoot in defense of property so don't discount the "If" in the statement.

state does allow defense of property if proper warning is given. your allowed to fire on tresspassers/thieves.

I'll take a possible fine and loss of a firearm over watching one of my dogs get torn apart by a coyote, another dog, or other potentially dangerous animal.

As for people being a threat to my dog...well, if they are a threat to my dog then there is possible concern for my well-being as well, but it would be a sketchy scenario.

My dogs are part of my family and I would defend them just as I would defend myself or my wife, from any attacker, regardless of how many legs it has. If the situation is one where I can't take a shot without the risk of shooting one of my own, then I'm going in with what I have...fists, feet, knives, rocks, whatever. They are my family, what more needs to be said.

The homes in my area are on 2 or 3 acre lots. And there are plenty of open spaces and pathways. I walk my dogs often at night, so I've thought about what I'd do if something attacked them.

I'd drop the leashes. I'd try to help with a swift kick. I wouldn't shoot. Too darn risky for others in my community, if I missed.

It would be irresponsible, in my opinion, to put humans at potential risk for the sake of an animal, no matter how beloved the pet.

BCC

I live on the edge of a city and go to sleep most nights to coyote serenades. There have been reports of pets being killed in the area. I saw a coyote the other day, crossing a park within a hundred yards of my house. He seems only interested in getting back to the woods, ignoring me and my dog.

But given the houses around, I'm not going to use my handgun to protect my dog. However, I carry a 3 D-cell metal flashlight on nightly walks. The flashlight is over a foot long and would make an effective club.

More interesting, authorities have driven black bears away from the school that my daughter attended. And I saw a mountain lion in the hills near the ocean, a dozen miles down the coast from my house (quite a few years ago).

I would consider my life (not just the dog's) threatened by a lion or bear attack.

There was an incident near here last month. A man shot a neighbor's dog that was attacking a deer on his property. (This was on a farm with no other dwellings close by.) He heard the commotion and came out of the house. He managed to chase the dog off with a stick at first, but then it came back and chased the deer out onto a partially frozen pond where he couldn't follow, so he went back into the house and got a .22 rifle. He shot once near the dog to try to scare it off (didn't work), and then shot the dog in the chest. The dog ran a few hundred yards and died.

Apparently this dog was notorious in the area for running wild--not a feral dog, a pet, but an uncontrolled one. The woman who owned the dog went ballistic and wanted the guy charged, but in the end she was ticketed by the DEC and he wasn't charged with anything. I'm not sure of how all the legalities worked.

If it's legal to shoot somebody in your jurisdication for destruction/theft of property than I'd imagine that it would be legal to do so if they are trying to kill to your pets. Pets are property. It'd be no different than if somebody came up to your house and started tearing at it with a sledge hammer. Would you sit there and let them continue destroying your property?

Protecting pets may be the same as protecting property. If it's allowed in your state you may be free of criminal charges. Too bad that won't help a bit in civil court when the family of the BG is taking all you own for using excessive force on their kin.

In Michigan, if a wild animal is attacking your live stock (your pet included) you can kill it. Don’t take that to the extreme and go shooting deer out of season because they are destroying your garden, the Michigan DNR has special permits and conditions that have to be met first with game animals.

Now if you live in an area where you can not discharge a firearm and you shoot it; that would be between you and your local prosecutor.

I have yet to see a coyote that would stay around once a human was in the area. Making your presents known should be enough to run it off, of course if your animal is mouth sized, it may go with it.

Protecting pets may be the same as protecting property. If it's allowed in your state you may be free of criminal charges. Too bad that won't help a bit in civil court when the family of the BG is taking all you own for using excessive force on their kin.


That depends on your jurisdiction.

In my state, Civil lawsuits are disallowed in a SD shooting case where there was no Criminal conviction.

In addition, my state allows defense of property in its Self-Defense provisions.


-- John

It is against the law to shoot a endangered species wolf in defence of a house pet like a dog or cat.

It is against the law to shoot a endangered species wolf in defence of a house pet like a dog or cat.

Is it against the law to shoot an endangered species in defense of yourself?

My point being... is there a specific cite you can give to this statement?

I don't know... so I can't disagree with you per se. However, I'd like to see some verification to this.

-- John

Well...where I live, the only predator worth mentioning is the coyote. We have open season year around here as long as you have a general hunting license. There is always a round of .270 ready to go. An pet in this state is still considered "property' and I will defend it.

True Story.

I work at 911 and we used to take Animal Shelter calls on the weekend.

One saturday I answer the phone and hear:

"Help me please; the neighbors dog is killing my chickens...... Long pause.....BOOM!......nevermind."

I actually found it refreshing that they were taking care of their problem.

I talked to the Animal Control Officer just to make sure all way ok. She said they were in their legal right.

is it legal to kill a human being whos trying to kill my pets? SD of dog/cat may look sketchy.

I'm not a lawyer, heck, I don't even play one on TV, but I'd have to guess that you'd have a whole lot of trouble if you shot a person to defend your pet.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone attacks my dog I'm going to be standing in his way. If he turns his weapon on me, oh well; it's legal to defend my own life with deadly force. Same goes for any endangered species, such as a wolf, that attacks my dog too. Hell I wouldn't care if it's one of the last thirty members of the spotted owl; if it attacks me or mine, I'm going to do my best to make sure my dog and I live through it.

jgooderh

I was wondering if anyone has had to use their firearms to defend their pets from varmints. And to any of the LE out there, is it legal (in your jurisdiction).

You ask two questions:
To the first, I have not used a firearm to defend my pet.
To the second, in the states in which I have lived (LA, MS, AL, GA) you may use deadly force to protect your pets from other animals. Other jurisdictions have different laws.

OK... I did some searching...


According to the articles that I've found, there IS a self-defense provision to the Endangered Species Act.

However... this Act, from what I can see, has been severely abused in that the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries has repeatedly gone after people in SD shootings by saying that it was not a SD shooting.


Ignoring that for a moment-- Theoretically speaking, in a state such as mine where Self-Defense ALSO includes property, and where pets are considered property, it would seem that an endangered species that is destroying your property can be shot under Self-Defense provisions.

Just be prepared to make that case in court, I suspect.



EDIT:

Here is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_Species_Act

An important provision of this law is that no penalty may be imposed if it can be shown by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant committed an act based on a good faith belief that he was acting to protect himself or herself or any other individual from bodily harm, from any endangered species or threatened species.



From what I've read, if there was ANY question over it, I think I'd dig a deep hole and shut my mouth.


-- John

My hypothetical is this, you live in a suburban area, you came back from running errands and you are still carrying (if you don't already carry in the house) and you see a coyote or other animal attacking your pet X (cat, toy breed, old dog that can't take care of itself anymore, etc...). Can you blast it?

"Officer the Coyote was charging me when my dog tried to defend me. We were both in danger, I shot the coyote. I have never heard of a Coyote attacking someone my size, it must have been rabid! Thank God fluffy protected me, I would have been bit otherwise."

It is all in how you paint the picture.

Regarding shooting an "endangered species" in SD:

Seems that every few weeks there is a posting about what kind of bear gun should they use. They are going hiking in bear country and what to have a gun for SD purposes. I always recommend carrying the Bear Pepper Spray and whatever gun they can pack handy. THE ABSOLUTE LAST THING you want to do is go to Yellowstone and then have to shoot a Grizzly without a dead human body somewhere around you...

"Officer the Coyote was charging me when my dog tried to defend me. We were both in danger, I shot the coyote. I have never heard of a Coyote attacking someone my size, it must have been rabid! Thank God fluffy protected me, I would have been bit otherwise."

LOL!!! FluffY????? What if your pet is a cat?? "Yeah, my cat jumped in front to protect me and...." Do you think that would be believable?:confused:

Interesting thread. I had wondered what the legalities were.

I had an incident a few weeks ago. I walked out of my house to check the mail. A neighbor two doors down had chained his dog in the front yard but it had gotten lose. I could see the chain dragging behind it. It spotted me and started barking. The lot between my house and the neighbor is still empty and the dog started across it in short dashes. Run a little, stop and bark, run some more, bark and so on until it had crossed into my front yard. It was about 30 feet from me and barking like crazy. I started to reach about the same time the neighbor came out of his house and started calling the dog back. He ran across the empty lot and grabbed the chain and dragged the dog back to his property, all the while apologizing profusely.

I thanked him for tasking care of the problem. I live in a CCW state. My take is that if the neighbor had not showed up and I shot the dog I wold have been justified. What do you think?

Seems that every few weeks there is a posting about what kind of bear gun should they use. They are going hiking in bear country and what to have a gun for SD purposes. I always recommend carrying the Bear Pepper Spray and whatever gun they can pack handy. THE ABSOLUTE LAST THING you want to do is go to Yellowstone and then have to shoot a Grizzly without a dead human body somewhere around you...


Funny....

You got out of that the importance of carrying Bear Pepper Spray on vacation.

I got out of it the need to carry a dead body on vacation.


You just never know...


:)


-- John

Honestly.... Unless its a person I shoot and bury. Period.

Doesn't matter if its some endangered transatlantic critter or your average rabied racoon. Family is family. Pets included

3 S's: Shoot-shut up-shovel

Must have been some kids with fireworks...


Of course I would defend my dog from a wild animal, but I haven't had to yet. I almost had to shoot some ferel dogs that were after me, but they knew the moment that the tables had turned and stopped chasing me.

This is a no brainer for me, regardless of legality. If someone tries to kill my animal and I can't get him the heck off... I will shoot him. I love my dog, she has been with our family for 12 years. She would try and defend my life, I will do the same.

However, I carry a can of mace also. I like to have options. Especially since if its just some other dog that can be deterred without having to deal with the legal repercussions of dealing with the government (Shots fired within city limits) and potential civil suits (people may try out of stupidity), mace can be a savior in the long run... even against people (especially if they are unarmed).

ehl,
Pits are other dog agressive but only a poor owner would allow the dog to remain that way. I would worry less about the breed and more about the displayed emotion of the dog. Studies have found that german shepards, chihuahuas, and datchounds (sp?) actually have more reported dog bites than other breeds (in order). That makes me worry more about my chi/datchound than my pit (very mild mannered). The "trashy" neighbors are more the problem than the dogs are. The dogs are just the result (and a waste of a good breed if they are the three you mentioned, pit, rottie, or doberman).

Had a rooster that used to attack my dog... they were both pets!!!

LOL!!! FluffY????? What if your pet is a cat?? "Yeah, my cat jumped in front to protect me and...." Do you think that would be believable?

"Officer I was holding my cat when the dog / coyote / bear attacked me, I guess I must have dropped the cat to grab my gun, I don't remember... Believe it or not, I was scared and thought that it was rabid / gonna kill me / eat Tokyo..."

Every time a cop an ex cop and ex military person shoots someone, do you know what they say??

"I was in fear of my life and MY TRAINING kicked in and I responded. It is all a blur and it if wasn't for my TRAINING, I would be dead..."

That isn't a testament, that is a lawyer crafted statement.

Live and learn amigo

You may not shoot a human being to protect your pet in any circumstance that defending property with lethal force is not allowed (which in most states is most circumstances.)

Under the law pets are property.
Some places have laws that enact harsh penalties for harming animals, some even worse than for doing the same thing to a human being, but they are still property.


Now if defending yourself against an intruder that is doing harm to your pet you are not defending the pet, but yourself. If however you are out on a walk, your pet gets loose and is totaly harmless, if someone decides to injure or even kill it then they can be held legaly liable, but you could legaly not defend the animal with lethal force.
In most places you only have legal recourse to deal with destruction or damage to property, which is what your pet is. You must handle it in a court of law afterwards, not stop the crime with the use of lethal force. Legaly it would be little different than shooting someone you see stealing your car, or doing felony vandalism.

An animal is legal property. If you use lethal force against a human being merely to defend property and not another human being, you will go to prison in most states.


Now against other animals is tricky legaly. Many places have laws that allow defense of "livestock", but livestock is usualy defined in ways that does not include pets or dogs. If it is not an animal your livelihood depends on, or that you make some substantial monetary gains from then it is usualy not livestock. The average pet dog or cat is usualy not "livestock" under the law.
So any harm you do to other animals to protect a pet could result in criminal and/or civil charges against you. Especialy if it is an endagered or protected species.

Further in many places there is a leash law. If you are in a place with a leash law, the animal not on a leash (and that includes if the leash breaks, or it is on a leash but gets away) is deemed at fault for most incidents, and therefore the person responsible for it not being on a leash or getting loose is at fault.
It does not matter if it is a harmless dog that goes to innocently visit another animal and is viciously attacked. If it is off a leash then it is at fault, and its owner is at fault, and they certainly do not retain the legal ability to defend the unleashed animal with lethal force, especialy against another pet that is not in violation of a leash law (is on a leash or tied up or on its property.) Even if the other animal is also in violation of a leash law the circumstances could go against you, as you are considered legaly partialy to blame for illegaly having your dog loose, meaning your negligence is the cause of the situation.

So if you illegaly have your dog off a leash and it gets attacked by a bear, coyote, or another person's pet etc, then the circumstances could still have you in legal trouble for using lethal force.
The local officials may choose not to charge you, but if they choose to, or some animal rights activists catch wind they can pressure them to charge you (or even bring an expensive lawsuit against you on the animal's behalf.)
Now a loose animal that attacks an animal you have on a short leash is arguably a threat to you, defensive actions would be taken to protect you if necessary, not the pet.
There is a big legal distinction.

I have kicked a dog a good 15-20 feet that was going after one of my cats. I would have shot the thing if I would have needed to.

I would also be willing to pull a firearm on a person trying to harm one of my animals. The animals in my house are more than just property or pets to me.

scythefwd,
I didn't mean that ANYBODY who owns ANY of those types of dogs are immediatly trashy or even bad news. I've owned a Rottweiler myself, but she was trained never to attack anybody or anything. I have seen her fight off a pack of dogs that were running loose and attacked her with my brother in tow. She was a good dog. But it seems that sooo many trashy people own these animals and DON"T do ANY training to make sure these dogs don't do what they were bred to do, attack and kill "intruders". So if I offended any RESPONSIBLE owners of any of these breeds, I apologize all around. Thanks for clarification call scythefwd. No offense intended.

And a coon can get to be well over 100 pounds of fighting fury.If you ever see one that big again you should shoot it. I believe the current record is under 63 lbs.

Ok. Yes, I have used firearms to defend my animals. Once on another dog attacking mine. It had already killed another dog in the neighbor hood. Another time a cat got shot as it attacked one of our de-clawed cats right outside our door.
No wild animals though. I would though.

King Ghidora wrote:

In most states a coon hunter has every right to come onto your property and retreive his dogs if they follow a coon there and stay there because the coon is there. They certainly should apologize for any damage their dogs have done and they should also pay for any damage. And they should train their dogs not to attack anything except coons. Unfortunately not all hunters are as responsible as they should be. But I know for a fact that coon hunters can go on your property in every state I've ever hunted in. As long as they start hunting on land they have permission to hunt on they can go pretty much anywhere they need to go to get their dogs back including land marked "no trespassing". Trust me I hunted coons for many years. I know this.

No offense, but I'll need more than "trust me" to believe it. Cite please.

I say this because I cannot imagine that coon hunters have greater "rights" than deer hunters who use dogs.

For a short period of time, we had a problem with dog-using deer hunters throwing their dogs out on one side of our land, and going to another area to retrieve them-- effectively hunting MY land. Once a pack of deer dogs ran the deer out of my food plot.

I talked to the Sheriff about it and I was told in no uncertain terms that I was within my rights to SHOOT any dogs let out on our land.

You may want to be aware of that. I can't tell the difference between a coon hound and a deer hound. When they come running through my food plot, they are ALL deer hounds.




3. And you're wrong about snake bites and dogs. Have you ever seen a dog get bitten by a snake? I have many times. And copperheads are pit vipers. Like I said I had a dog that would fight copperheads for long periods and get bit over and over and never show the slightest sign of a problem. I'm sure other venomous snakes could present more of a problem since copperheads have less venom than most but we also have rattlesnakes here and I've never seen a dog have more of a problem than just some swelling and pain for a day or two. According to this web page a rattlesnake bite is worse than a copperhead bite for dogs but this vet says he has never seen a dog die from a copperhead bite. Again I've seen this many times. I'm not saying they have no reaction at all but it isn't nearly as severe of a reaction as humans have. That's what every hunter I ever knew said about snake bites and believe me I've known a lot of hunters.

I've heard all the same things that you have. And I've had dogs get bit by various snakes (we have Rattlesnakes, Cottonmouth Mocassins, Copperheads, and Coral Snakes here.)

Let me be perhaps the first hunter that will give you a differing view.

Even though I've had dogs survive snake bites, I've buried two that died from snake bites.

One was an 80 pound Chow that was struck by a Timber Rattelesnake. The dog was immediately paralyzed in his back legs, and I could see the evidence that the was dragging himself with his front legs trying to get back to me. He made it about 10 feet.

The other was a Rat Terrier that was killed from a Cottonmouth Mocassin bite. It made it back, but was too far gone.


While I agree that dogs are more resistant to snake bites, it isn't absolute.

And that's enough for me.


-- John

You may want to be aware of that. I can't tell the difference between a coon hound and a deer hound. When they come running through my food plot, they are ALL deer hounds.

Same here, actually as far as I'm concerned all loose running dogs are strays and possibly dangerous. I will generally let them pass but one sign of aggression and they are history.

1. What makes you think I haven't spent time with pit bulls? They can be just as good as any dog but they also have the ability to rip a person to shreds in a matter of seconds.

So can Great danes, Boxers, GSD, Irish wolfhounds, Rotties, and probably a pissed off Lab. Do you reccomend all of them get destroyed?

2 Coyotes are like 50lbs max can you cite any source where coyotes as a species are bigger than that? Most dogs(in fact all I just listed plus like a hundred other breeds) are bigger esp. since 50lbs is a big coyote

3 In my veterinary career I've seen dog snake bites and I can tell you that despite your observations you are wrong. You are right copperheads are pit vipers though. If you look up the stats for human victims you will see that almost all fatalities were children/smaller ppl. but even so most survive, same with dogs. Rattlers are very dangerous(to both spieces) and kill about the same amt. If you really look at the numbers dogs die More often do to not recieving antivenom. Relying on antedotal evidence is poor because snakes inject different amts of venom each bite. you need path reports for actual inference.

Rabid animals are your greatest fear. If you suspect there's any chance of that I'd suggest shooting the wild animal AND the pet. Sorry but pets aren't people. If they're exposed they are dangerous IMO even if they have been vaccinated. It isn't worth the risk no matter what you think of your dog. It shouldn't come up often anyway. Rabies is actually pretty rare in higher predators.

Remember now? shoot your own vaccinated dog if you want to but please do not reccomend this to others.

and for 6 I think you are using the same scale for coyotes.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions and you can "Know" you are right, however, I can "know" I am right as well. In these cases it is better to let the facts decide(except 1 which is still personalk opinion on both our parts)

KG, Wow, I'd like you to reread my posts I meant no offense. If you reread you will notice that, I wrote that dogs were just as susceptible to snake bites then humans thats all. Saying dogs have been bit by copperheads and survived I'm not disputing I was telling you that ppl get bitten by copperheads and survive at about the same rates as dogs correcting for body wieght.

I never disputed anything about bobcats as my expierence is limited. I disputed the portion that I highlighted for you about shooting vaccinated animals

As far as the rest of your post WOW Do you have a prob with educated ppl?or just city ppl? While I'm only 27 I grew up in woods as well. I've hunted and fished since I was a kid.
Also , you ever consider that those coyotes are running off with little dogs and puppies, cause thats what they are killing most of the time. smaller, weaker animals. Now this does not mean coyotes are tougher then dogs, it means coyotes are tougher then yorkies, toy poodles, etc.
As for dogs killing yotes. dosen't it occur to you that if a coyote comes on a dogs property and the dog kills it. The body would stay there. NOT wander into a natl. forest. Thats just common sense. I would assume an animal expert like you would have observed that dogs usually dont get aggressive on another canines territory, but on their own.

It seems that the only way it is legal to shoot a dog that attacks an animal in Columbia County, Florida is if it is attacking, or even harassing, a dairy cow. Apparently the dairy farmers have strong influence with the county commissioners.

The moral of that story is; if a domestic animal comes onto your property and you shoot it make sure you do one of two things. Either make darn sure it's dead and bury it where it won't be found, or call the cops and tell them you just shot your neighbor's dog because it was coming at you...after fully devouring your pet Dairy Cow

King Ghidora wrote:

I guess when the game warden was called on us for doing it and the game warden didn't say anything to us for going after our dogs he must not have know the law either. I guess the Outdoorsman club was wrong when it taught people that law. If you want proof that this is true find it yourself. I know the law. I don't need proof.


I decided to take you up on this.


Here's what I found:


http://bengal.missouri.edu/~matthewss/AgEc3257/hunting_retrieving_dogs_wounded_wildlife.htm

Four states by statute allow hunters to retrieve dogs: Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, and Virginia.



Four states by statute allow hunters to retrieve wounded animals: Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, and North Dakota.







Kansas:

K.S.A. 21-3728. Criminal hunting is hunting, shooting, trapping, pursuing any bird or animal, or fishing: (1) upon any land or non-navigable body of water of another, without having first obtained permission of the owner or person in possession of such premises; or (2) upon or from any public road, public right-of-way or railroad right-of-way that adjoins occupied or improved premises, without having first obtained permission of the owner or person in possession of such premises. … A person licensed to hunt and following or pursuing a wounded game bird or animal upon any land of another without permission of the landowner or person in lawful possession thereof shall not be deemed to be in violation of this provision while in such pursuit.

32-1013. Taking wildlife without permission on land posted "by written permission only". (a) Any landowner or person in lawful possession of any land may post such land with signs stating that hunting, trapping or fishing on such land shall be by written permission only. It is unlawful for any person to take wildlife on land which is posted as provided in this subsection, without having in the person’s possession the written permission of the owner or person in lawful possession thereof. … (c) A person licensed to hunt or fur harvest who is following or pursuing a wounded animal on land as provided in this section posted without written permission of the landowner or person in lawful possession thereof shall not be in violation of this section while in such pursuit, except that the provisions of this subsection shall not authorize a person to remain on such land if instructed to leave by the owner or person in lawful possession of the land. Any person who fails to leave such land when instructed is subject to the provisions of K.S.A. 21-3721 and 21-3728, and amendments thereto.

32-1013. (a) Any landowner or person in lawful possession of any land may post such land with signs stating that hunting, trapping or fishing on such land shall be by written permission only. … (b) Instead of posting land as provided in subsection (a), any landowner or person in lawful possession of any land may post such land by placing identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts around the area to be posted. Each paint mark shall be a vertical line of at least eight inches in length and the bottom of the mark shall be no less than three feet nor more than five feet high. Such paint marks shall be readily visible to any person approaching the land. Land posted as provided in this subsection shall be considered to be posted by written permission only as provided in subsection (a).





Iowa:

I.C.A. 716.7. "Trespass" means entering property without the express permission of the owner, lessee, or person in lawful possession, with the intent to commit a public offense, to use, remove therefrom, alter, damage, harass, or place anything animate or inanimate, or to hunt, fish or trap on the property. This paragraph does not prohibit the unarmed pursuit of game or fur-bearing animals lawfully injured or killed which come to rest on or escape to the property of another.





Louisiana:

RS 14:63. B. No person shall intentionally enter immovable property owned by another: (1)When he knows his entry is unauthorized, or (2)Under circumstances where he reasonably should know his entry is unauthorized. C.(1)It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution pursuant to Subsection (B)(2) that the person was unarmed and entered immovable property for the sole purpose of retrieving a dog or livestock. (2)It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution pursuant to Subsection (B)(2) to show that property was not adequately posted in accordance with Subsections D, or E, and F of this Section…

RS 14:63. D. In order for forest land to be adequately posted the owner, lessee, or person having the written permission of the owner of lessee shall post the property by any one of the following methods: (1) placing identifying paint marks on trees of posts around the area to be posted. Each paint mark shall be a vertical line of at least eight inches in length, and the bottom of the mark shall be no less than three feet nor more than five feet high. Such paint marks shall be placed no more than one hundred feet apart and shall be readily visible to any person approaching the property. (2) Placing signs around the area to be posted at no more than one hundred feet apart and at normal points of ingress and egress. The signs shall bear the words "Posted", "No Trespassing", or "No" in letters at least three and one-half inches high and shall be so placed as to be readily visible to any person approaching the property.(3) Constructing a fence around the area to be posted of not less than three strand wire, or its equivalent, and placing signs that bear the words "Posted", "No Trespassing", or "No" in letters at least three and one-half inches high at normal points of ingress and egress. The type of color of the paint to be used for posting shall be prescribed by regulation by the Louisiana Forestry Commission, which shall not select a color that is presently being used by the timber industry in this state to mark land line or property lines. The color of paint prescribed shall not be used on trees or posts for any other purpose.





Minnesota:

M.S.A. 97B.001 Subd. 2. Permission required to enter agricultural land for outdoor recreation purposes. Except as provided in subdivisions 5 and 6, a person may not enter agricultural land for outdoor recreation purposes, without first obtaining permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee. Subd. 3. Remaining on land prohibited after notice. Except as provided in subdivision 6, a person may not remain on any land for outdoor recreation purposes after being orally told not to do so by the owner, occupant, or lessee. Subd. 4. Entering posted land prohibited; signs. (a) Except as provided in subdivision 6, a person may not enter, for outdoor recreation purposes, any land that is posted under this subdivision without first obtaining permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee. Subd. 5. Except as provided in subdivision 3, a person on foot may, without permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee, enter land that is not posted under subdivision 4, to retrieve a wounded animal that was lawfully shot. The hunter must leave the land immediately after retrieving the wounded game. Subd. 6. A person on foot may, without permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee, enter private land without a firearm to retrieve a hunting dog. After retrieving the dog, the person must immediately leave the premises.

97B.001 Subd. 4. Entering posted land prohibited; signs. (b) the owner, occupant, or lessee of private land, or an authorized manager of public land may prohibit outdoor recreation on the land by posting signs once each year that: (1) state "no trespassing" or similar terms; (2) display letters at least two inches high; (3) either: (I) are signed by the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; or (ii) include the legible name and telephone number of the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; and (4) either: (I) are at intervals of 1,000 feet or less along the boundary of the area, or in a wooded area where boundary lines are not clear, at intervals of 500 feet or less; or (ii) mark the primary corners of each parcel of land and access roads and trails at the point of entrance to each parcel of land except that corners only accessible through agricultural land need not be posted.



North Dakota:

N.D.S.L. 20.1-01-18. Hunting on posted land and trapping on private land without permission unlawful – Penalty. No person may hunt or pursue game, or enter for those purposes, upon legally posted land belonging to another without first obtaining the permission of the person legally entitled to grant the same. No person may enter upon privately owned land for the purpose of trapping protected fur-bearing animals without first gaining the written permission of the owner or operator of that land. 20.1-01-19. When posted land may be entered. Any person may enter upon legally posted land to recover game shot or killed on land where he had a lawful right to hunt.


20.1-01-17. Posting of lands by owner or tenant to prohibit hunting – How posted – Signs defaced. Only the owner or tenant of any land may post it by placing signs alongside the public highway or the land giving notice that no hunting is permitted on the land. The name of the person posting the land must appear on each side in legible characters. The signs must be readable from the outside of the land and must be placed conspicuously not more than eight hundred eighty yards [804.68 meters] apart. As to land entirely enclosed by a fence or other enclosure, posting of signs at or on all gates through the fence or enclosure constitutes a posting of all the enclosed land.





Virginia:

C.V. 18.2-132. Trespass by hunters and fishers. Any person who goes on the lands, waters, ponds, boats or blinds of another to hunt, fish or trap without the consent of the landowner or his agent shall be deemed guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor.

18.2-133. Refusal of person on land, etc., of another to identify himself. Any person who goes on the lands, waters, ponds, boats or blinds of another to hunt, fish, or trap and willfully refuses to identify himself when requested by the landowner or his agent so to do shall be deemed guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

18.2-134. Trespass on posted property. Any person who goes on the lands, waters, ponds, boats or blinds of another, which have been posted in accordance with the provisions of § 18.2-134.1, to hunt, fish or trap except with the written consent of or in the presence of the owner or his agent shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

18.2-136. Right of certain hunters to go on lands of another; carrying firearms or bows and arrows prohibited. Fox hunters and coon hunters, when the chase begins on other lands, may follow their dogs on prohibited lands, and hunters of all other game, when the chase begins on others lands, may go upon prohibited lands to retrieve their dogs, but may not carry firearms or bows and arrows on their persons or hunt any game while thereon. The use of vehicles to retrieve dogs on prohibited lands shall be allowed only with the permission of the landowner or his agent.

Section 18.2-134.1. Method of posting land. (A) The owner or lessee of property described in § 18.2-134 may post property by (I) placing signs prohibiting hunting, fishing or trapping where they may reasonably be seen; or (ii) placing identifying paint marks on trees or posts at each road entrance and adjacent to public roadways and public waterways adjoining the property. Each paint mark shall be a vertical line of at least two inches in width and at least eight inches in length and the center of the mark shall be not less than three feet nor more than six feet from the ground or normal water surface. Such paint marks shall be readily visible to any person approaching the property.

(B) The type and color of the paint to be used for posting shall be prescribed by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries.



Michigan:

MCL 324.73102. (1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon the property of another person, other than farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property, to engage in any recreational activity or trapping on that property without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, if either of the following circumstances exists: (a) The property is fenced or enclosed and is maintained in such a manner as to exclude intruders. (b) The property is posted in a conspicuous manner against entry.

(2) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property for any recreational activity or trapping without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, whether or not the farm property or wooded area connected to farm property is fenced, enclosed, or posted.

(3) On fenced or posted property or farm property, a fisherman wading or floating a navigable public stream may, without written or oral consent, enter upon property within the clearly defined banks of the stream or, without damaging farm products, walk a route as closely proximate to the clearly defined bank as possible when necessary to avoid a natural or artificial hazard or obstruction, including, but not limited to, a dam, deep hole, or a fence or other exercise of ownership by the riparian owner.

(4) A person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner or his or her lessee or agent, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog. In an action under section 73109 or 73110, the burden of showing that the property owner or his or her lessee or agent previously prohibited entry under this subsection is on the plaintiff or prosecuting attorney, respectively. (5) Consent to enter or remain upon the property of another person pursuant to this section may be given orally or in writing. The consent may establish conditions for entering or remaining upon that property. Unless prohibited in the written consent, a written consent may be amended or revoked orally. If the owner or his or her lessee or agent requires all persons entering or remaining upon the property to have written consent, the presence of the person on the property without written consent is prima facie evidence of unlawful entry.

MCL 324.73102. (1) (b) The property is posted in a conspicuous manner against entry. The minimum letter height on the posting signs shall be 1 inch. Each posting sign shall be not less than 50 square inches, and the signs shall be spaces to enable a person to observe not less than 1 sign at any point of entry upon the property.



Therefore, I have refuted the claim where you wrote:


In most states a coon hunter has every right to come onto your property and retreive his dogs



"Four States" is not "Most."



I coon hunted for 35 years. I guess all those years we were breaking the law retreiving our hounds on people's property. I guess when the game warden was called on us for doing it and the game warden didn't say anything to us for going after our dogs he must not have know the law either. I guess the Outdoorsman club was wrong when it taught people that law.


Unless the states you have coon hunted in for 35 years is: Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, and Virginia, breaking the law is EXACTLY what you did.

Unless the states in question were Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, and Virginia, that game warden DID NOT know the law.

And unless the Outdoorsman club was in Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, and Virginia, they WERE wrong.



I know the law. I don't need proof.

It seems that I've shed doubt on the former, and clearly you do need the latter.


-- John

I have killed marauding dogs that were after my pigs, I have killed dogs after the sheep and I've killed dogs that were raising hell with my horses. Every one of those dogs was a city dog that had no supervision or was a hunting dog that was let run. People don't realize that dogs need exercise and just letting them run is not the way to let them get it.
Some of those doge were very expensive dogs, but their owners "didn't have time", I suspect those people's children get the same treatment.
RANT OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Legal or not, basic politeness and common sense would tell you to contact the owner of the property before crossing the property line. Of my farmer Indiana neighbors, none would refuse to allow a hunter to retrieve either dog or wounded animal. Most would offer help and since they know the property far better than you can that help would save you a lot of time and aggravation.

Selena

My Yorkies are my family. If a varmint (2 legs or 4) tried to harm them, I'd try to do the 3 S's. That's shoot, shovel, and shut up.

seems ohio isn't one of the favored states

seems ohio isn't one of the favored states


Same old story.

I can't tell you how many times that I've had people come on OUR land and then try to quote the "law" to us as to why they are allowed to be there.

We had one guy who TRIED to use the fact that deer are the property of the state as a statement of right that he trespass and poach on us.

By his logic, since the deer were state property, he was allowed to go whereever those deer went.

Sadly, the upheld charges against him didn't even change his mind. We had to have him hauled off until the day he died.


And then those dog hunters who will tell you that they can't control where the dog runs-- except for the fact that they set them out 500 yards from your land in a narrow passage, and then waited on a public road a mile on the other side of your land to see what got run out of your land.

Trying to talk to them didn't work. Even stating that I would have to involve the Game Wardens didn't stop them. Suggesting that I could not be responsible for the safety of the dogs didn't stop them.

This ended when they started finding the collars hanging on a stop sign out on the highway.



But you know...

If someone came to my house saying their dog accidently ran onto my land or if they shot an animal that ran onto our land, I'd drop what I was doing to go help them.


Asking goes a long way. I'd think that it would be common courtesy to do so even in a state that allows retrieval of dogs and animals.

But I can't stand ANYONE that things they are entitled to come on my property for anything without asking.

I even give hard looks at the guy that reads my meter. (joking-- he's a cousin of mine)





-- John

i live in va and my hound when she got loose would trespass on my neighbors 110 acre vacant farm. we got into a heated discussion about my right to retrieve her one day when he happened to be there.(absentee owner)he was adamant that i couldn't trespass so i didn't. son of a gun 1/2 hour later he brought the dog home for me. 6 months later i sent him video of the guys riding atv's on his hayfield. and video of them loading em on their truck. we get along great now.

cassandrasdaddy,

Kinda surprised that the guy would be that way.

Honest need and straightforwardness, for me anyway, is met with open assistance.

I just don't care for the "entitled" people.


-- John

i found out that he was upset cause the empty house had been broken into. and as hard for me to believe he was a worse dog nut than me. i try to remember when folks seem to go off that they might have , what seems to them anyway, a good reason. we got to be pretty good neighbors after the rough beginning. i guess i coulda called the cops and tried to make my point but he was about 20 years older than me and the japanese in me kicked in . i defered to my elder. bet my dad wished i learned that trick earlier

King Ghidora,

I'll have to get back to you this afternoon on your post. I have to leave for work in a few.

I don't know. You may be right. I'll have to look a bit more.


But I do what say one thing....

When I asked you for a cite, you could have posted those links from the get-go and saved all of us a lot of trouble. Instead, you did EXACTLY what you accuse others of: claiming to be an expert on your good word.

I'll open them and read them when I get home today.


-- John

(This text is from page 13 of the 2009-2010 NMG&F hunting reg's.)
WARNING!
Wolves Are A Protected Species
Parts of New Mexico are within the Mexican Wolf
Restoration Area. Wolves are protected by the federal
Endangered Species Act and by the New Mexico
Wildlife Conservation Act. Shooting a wolf could cost
you up to a year in jail and as much as $50,000 as well
as additional penalties under state law for violating the
Endangered Species Act .
A combination of federal and state agencies
and conservation organizations offer rewards
totaling up to $45,000 for information leading
to the arrest and prosecution of wolf poachers.
You MAY NOT legally:
• Kill or injure a wolf because it is near you or your
property.
• Kill or injure a wolf if it attacks your pet.
• Kill or injure a wolf feeding on dead livestock.
• Enter posted closures around release pens, active
dens and rendezvous sites.
• Shoot a wolf because you thought it was a coyote or
anything else.
You MAY legally:
• Harass a wolf without injuring it, provided you report
it within seven days.
• Kill or injure a wolf if it is in the act of killing,
wounding or biting your cattle, sheep, horses, mules
or burros on private or tribal land, but you must
report it within 24 hours.
• Kill, injure or harass a wolf in defense of human life,
but you must report it within 24 hours.
For more information about Mexican wolves or the
Wolf Recovery Program, contact the Department’s
Conservation Services Division at (505) 476-8101, or
visit the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s Mexican wolf
Web site at: http://ifw2es.fws.gov/mexicanwolf

If a wolf attacks my pet, it's going to die. If they ask me anything about it..."It attacked me, I swear!!! I thought I was going to die, good thing I had ol' Betsy (my double barrel 12guage) with me, or I might not be here to tell you about it..."

If a wolf attacks my pet, it's going to die. If they ask me anything about it..."It attacked me, I swear!!! I thought I was going to die, good thing I had ol' Betsy (my double barrel 12guage) with me, or I might not be here to tell you about it..."

If ANY animal attacks your pet that is what you say. The pet being their SAVED YOU, the animal was coming after YOU, that doesn't normally happen it must have been RABID...

Hope none of us ever have to use that strategy though.

Actually, call your lawyer first, don't speak to the cops...

from other animals? Yes, of course - no fine line there for me, at all.

From humans? That's where you're getting into more muddled legal and ethical territory. Furry pets are considered property by the law, not life worth being protected, so I guess in TX you could defend your furries against human attackers, but in other states you'd be in deep doo doo, in all likelihood - doesn't mean I wouldn't do it, because I would, but I'd understand the law is against me and what the consequences are.

OK... update.


I've done some searching on the laws regarding retrieval of hunting dogs off of private property.

Sadly enough, there simply IS NO consolidated list of states that have provisions that I have been able to discover.

It seems that the only way to review each state's provisions is to literally search each and every state in the USA. I don't have that kind of time or resources.

Because of this, my refute to King Ghidora remains incomplete.

HOWEVER, I can say this...

I have found NO evidence that "Most states allow for retrieval of hunting dogs without prior contacting of the landowner."

Moreover, it seems that the links regarding VA laws are about a group of landowners that is trying to stop this practice.

But it remains that King Ghidora will have his claims unchallenged.

I will take my solace in this:

Mississippi (my state) DOES NOT allow for retreival of hunting dogs off of private property.

So if you have one of those "$10K" coon dogs, it is a REAL good idea NOT to run it through this "whiny land owner's" property.

After seeing the attitudes regarding this on this board and the other sites that I've read to answer this thread, where I would have normally shown compassion and understanding, I will now follow the letter of the law and show absolutely NO quarter. The overwhelming sense of entitlement and lack of willingness to contact the landowners as a gesture of good will is disturbing.


So I leave this thread with this thought....

"Check your local laws regarding this. I can't say that King Ghidora is right or wrong-- only that he is either wrong about MY state, or has never hunted here.

Make sure you know about your state.


-- John

I live outside the city and it is illegal to discharge a firearm with in city limits in almost all the cities in this valley. However the state law actually states 200 yds from a residence or 500 yds of a church or school. Outside of the cities this is very seldom enforced due to the rural nature of WV. While I don't know the specific laws, I can guess with good accuracy that you'd be very hard pressed to get a LEO to pursue any charges over popping a 'yote that was on the attack as long as you made a good shot on it (good shot means that you took into consideration the back drop of the shot and didn't have any risk of hitting a home,school, person, or other collateral damage)

I don't actually know if dogs are more resistant to snake bites but I know a little about snakes. Most defensive strikes are "dry" bites. Snakes need venom for hunting, they don't want to "waste" their ammo. A copperhead is a pit viper and has fairly weak venom. I would guess that a small dog that was struck several times and showed NO effects however was probably being "dry" struck. As for one on one battles with dogs versus coyote...I'd say any healthy dog over 50 lbs would cause most single 'yotes to tuck tail. To them its about survival, not bragging rights. Even if they could, they normally wouldn't and there is no accounting for rabid animals. A pack of coyotes is a different question...they do like 4+ to 1 odds. Even if a dog is a A+ fighter his odds fall like a stone even at 2 to 1. I have an Aussie Shepard puppy now, and there are coyotes around. He stays in the house unless accompanied, if a coyote sniffs around this yard, it has little time left in this realm of existence.

Hi, I'm new...good thread.

I think we've established that snakebites affect dogs differently, but in my case I had a pretty stout dog that was LITERALLY a micron away from death. WVMtn boy has a point with snakes saving their venom for killing...unfortunately, my pooch got emptied into...center of mass.


Last Feb., my at the time 65 lb 2 y.o. German Shorthair of mine got bitten by a 3.5 foot Diamondback.
On leash 10 feet away, dog got hit... I immediately checked him for puncture marks on legs, face, chest...none found so I thought he might have beat the odds.
5 minutes = limping, 15 minutes he had collapsed to his side.
Was at the vet w/in 45 minutes of the bite and spent the $3200 for the full meal deal with antivenin, etc.
Dog was fair on the first night, but declined progressively the next 2 days -- at death's door is not used figuratively
He was not ambulatory for 10 full days
I gave him water from a squeeze bottle while he laid on his side and he could barely keep balance when I lifted him outside to squirt

I hope nobody ever has to go through that, and I felt like the WORST guardian ever ... I don't hunt him specifically because I did not want him facing cholla cactus and snakes in the desert. He has since been 'snake trained' which I recommend, but I don't know if 1x/yr refreshers will really break him of his prey drive. Wish I could help reinforce the training with some snake scent and a rubber snake.

Anyway, here are the pics: *tried to reduce them yet still leave some resolution...couldn't figure out how to make them thumbnails.


2nd Night
http://i27.tinypic.com/e8rf4m.jpg



Day 14
Bandages/Stitches not an option since it needed air per vet
Rinsed with hose 2x/day then slathered with neosporin
http://i27.tinypic.com/351xs8i.jpg


Day 22
http://i29.tinypic.com/jfc5l1.jpg




All healed now...he's back to 69 pounds, but with a GNARLY scar..that open area didn't grow in like sod...rather, the fur-covered skin puckered itself together to heal. BTW for the uninitiated...the antivenin is actually blood serum from a horse that has been bitten by that type of snake and not died. The problem is, many dogs can die just from the reaction of having horse serum put in their system...mine didn't reject the serum, and although I wouldn't change his treatment steps, from what I've read and now experienced, antivenin treatment is of dubious efficacy anyway. In the moment you see things declining so quickly, you just want to throw money at the situation even if you had just been laid off and money is beyond tight.


** Oh, and to the OPs question...in my case this was nanoseconds. Despite having my carry with me, it was inappropriate to discharge a weapon, as we were on a trail system in a housing development, but I would have fired after the fact had we not been within 80 yards of 200 homes. I have played this out in my head, and there is no implement I could have had that would have avoided this situation. Snake training beforehand? Sure. More situational awareness? Sure...but he was 10 ft away from me, I was engaged with him and it was February. Too many thoughts were racing through my mind afterwards, that I didn't spend much time trying to kill the snake. I snapped a picture of it however to back me up at the vets that it was in fact a western dback.


http://i25.tinypic.com/2mhbqcn.jpg

Glad to hear your four legged friend made it. That was very kind of you to nurse him back to health. I'm sure you have a friend for life with that little guy. Too bad you didn't kill that damn snake, though.

Yeah, definitely glad your dog made it, man.
And I wouldn't hesitate to shoot anything that would be attacking my dogs. In Ohio, there is no closed season on coyotes. And no limits. And I carry one of my weapons always when I'm walking through the woods with the dogs and/or family. There have been alot of coyotes around where I'm from. Better safe then sorry.

Oh, nursing him back to health was a foregone conclusion...you know the drill "If I die having been half the man my dog thinks I am, my life's purpose has been met".

I tossed a couple 7 or 8 inch rocks on the snake, but with no immediate effect. Plus, with the dog amped up over the rattling, I was debating in my head whether we had an emergency on our hands (which we did) or just a good campfire story, and then I thought about the fact that I had no health insurance after my cobra ran out, so I thought it wiser not to get Punk'D by him or his friends and and up spending another 14k on my own wounds. :)

Agreed, I do wish I could have kilt it though

Part of the reason that the apparent response to snakebite is so varied has nothing to do with a particular animal's sensitivity to venom.

There is evidence to suggest that venomous snakes have some control over how much (if any) venom they inject. Furthermore, a snake may not have a full load of venom if they have recently bitten something else.

This is one reason that it is now common to find that aggressive first aid for snakebites (cutting/sucking/torniquets/etc.) is not recommended. It turned out that many snakebites were just puncture wounds with little or no venom injected and people were being seriously injured by the first aid procedures.

A racoon tried to attack my dog one time, although i know my dog can perfectly well defend himself (177lb 5% German Shepard,95% Grey Wolf) I didnt want him to get a disease if he was bit or scratched so i had to put the racoon down. I carry a 40 S&W allways n thats what I used, cops showed up asking what happend told them what happend, showed them the racoon n they left.

King Ghidora wrote:

I don't think you have any idea what kind of open spaces there are in the rural areas.

A lot of the presumptions that you make regarding my understanding of this topic may well be altered when I tell you that I lived in a river-lowland forest in the middle of our hunting land.

I don't have neighbors.

It's 6:35 AM and I just walked on my porch and saw that I have 9 deer in my yard right now. My main deer stand is 200 yards from my house.

I'd rather not continue posting on this thread since what we are talking about would probably be more suited for a thread in the hunting section, but I will make this last post on this thread and invite you to continue this in the Hunting Forum.

However, let me say this....

You are absolutely correct that people have lost respect for one another. But I think you REALLY leave those "whiny" landowners out of the equation.

Over the years, we have had dozens of poachers and other people abuse our land. I've seen hundreds of spent red shotgun shell hulls floating on our lake because some jack-legs decided that we wouldn't mind them duck hunting on us.

Just a few weeks ago, I posted a thread in S&T about finding a man IN my deer stand behind my house. I had to have him arrested.

My father has experienced the same with his deer stands twice.

I've found several "gut piles" where poachers have killed and dressed deer on our land.

I've had hunting dogs run deer out of my deer food plots while *I* was hunting. Why is YOUR hunting a greater thing than MINE?-- especially when I am minding my own business on MY land? Granted, you are a coon hunter-- and those dogs run when I am not hunting. You may not be able to relate.

When we posted our land in the late 70's, we started getting harrassment, threats, and even dead animals put in our mailbox and on our gates-- by those people who felt that they had right to OUR land.


I just sent off over $5,000 in property taxes this year. I think I have say as to who is on my land. As of now, my state supports this.


But really, I'd have no problems with someone like you retrieving your dogs on our land. As you have mentioned, coon hunting is VERY different than what I've put up with.

But I want to ask you this...

Do you bring your gun on other people's land? If so, what would make me believe that you are not poaching or otherwise willfully hunting on my property without my permission? When you get to your dogs-- what do you do if they have a coon bayed? Do you shoot it? If so, you ARE poaching.

Whatever your views of coons are, I feed them in my yard. My wife likes them. I don't have a problem with them.

I DO know what they can do to crops-- I plant a 40 acre field every year with corn, watermelons, cucumbers, tomatoes, squash, peppers, peas, and butterbeans. Coons do as much damage as deer do around here-- which is why I have a 10 foot deer fence around the entire thing. Oddly enough, it keeps the coons out, too.


I leave you with this: You speak of those "whiny landowners." Have you ONCE considered what WE have to put up with from people that come on our land? And you are not the only one that has that attitude about landowners. With that attitude, do you REALLY think that we have ANY desire to go out of our way for you?

Respect goes both ways.


-- John

I found this web page that clearly describes a right to retreive law in Virginia. This clearly refutes the claim of the web site you cited

actually in my reading of the site jwarren used it said va did have right to retrieve and it does though its in real danger of losing it.



"I know what the law is here and what it was all through the country at one time. I've hunted from Kansas to Kentucky and the laws were always the same."

yea sure

I have three great pyrenees mix girls and seeing what they will do to each other on occasions I pity any coyote that would want to harm them , I would be more worried about the coyotes getting frisky .:eek:
Can I defend their virtue ?:scrutiny:

god a pyrenees cross could be interesting. i would say it would take a brave male to try but i remember a friends pomeranian trying to mount my dobie mix. gotta admire spirit

They are not as big as their daddy but fiercely protective and with the three of them they do get a pack mentality . of course they are also the worlds best alarm system , so no one gets close to my place without me knowing .

This one has gone off topic for the General Gun Discussion forum. Some of the more interesting/relevant posts would be worth discussing in the Hunting forum, however.