[atrain08]

I was reading on another forum about all the firearm banning talk and then I had a thought. What would I use to protect myself and loved ones if I did not own firearms? That's a tough question for me really, I guess for in home defense it would be a sword. I have been a martial artist for over 5 years but I do not specialize in weapons, that is something id like to look into so that I can become proficient with a sword. Whats your weapon of choice and why?

[Dirty Dawg]

I'd go with a machete. They've been used effectively as weapons countless times and don't require much training.

[JShirley]

If you can use a sword, you can use a stick, but there are specialized stick techs you have to study stick to learn.

Sticks are impossible to outlaw. There are too many tools that are stick-like. If you can use a stick well, you will always have quick access to defensive tools.

At close range, the most devastating manual weapon is the spear. It's amazingly fast and powerful and almost impossible to stop.

John

[indoorsoccerfrea]

easy! a bow. anything from long distance to up close and personal. maybe a crossbow?

[alaskanativeson]

A German Shepherd. Oh, wait, I already have two. They're a great defense tool, and they are a wonderful source of stress relief after a long day with rowdy kids (at least my dogs listen to me.)

[laguna0seca]

Louie: my trusty 33 inch baseball bat.

if not that, then I can probably find a hockey stick close.

[qwert65]

a machete, and maybe a short spear, though if I had room 5 good sized dogs would certainly be helpful

[TimboKhan]

easy! a bow. anything from long distance to up close and personal. maybe a crossbow?

The bow has come up a time or two in conversations like these, and the general consensus seems to be that they are relatively pointless as a SD weapon. Not because you can't kill someone deader than a doornail, but because the average guy isn't going to be able to get more than maybe two hasty shots off. Once they are close, the bow isn't a particularly good impact weapon, either.

My non-gun armory would consist of a bat or some bat-like object and a spear. The spear is a devastating weapon that is frequently overlooked for some reason.

[7X57chilmau]

I keep around the house and handy,:

A spear, 6'-6"OAL, 13" socketed head, 1-1/8" hardwood
A Kukri
A 10" double edged dagger
A katana
A sharp tai-chi sword
Various Hittin' sticks.

Should do.... :)

J

[atrain08]

Personally I think a bow is a good way to get yourself killed. I keep a Louisville slugger beside my bed as well! However, I think I would like something with a little more range that can slice. I like the machete idea. What company makes a decent machete?

[Carl Levitian]

I'm a big champion of the stick. They're eveywhere, easy to make, trees are plentifull. It's mans oldest weapon, even chimps have been observed using a stick.

All that being said, look at the travelers on roads in the ancient days, they were not all old farts hat needed a staff to lean on. And if you have to go through the valley of the shadow, "thy rod abd thy staff will comfort me". A rod is a short staff about as high as your lowest rib. The short length makes it a bit more handy in tight places. Alleys, markets, crowds. In the mideast today, you still see middle age men carrying a short rod lenth stick.

If guns were banned, you'll find yourself living in a medieval type of society; only the "privileged" class will be allowed weapons. This is the perfect example of how some stick cultures came about. In the 1580 invasion of Ireland, the English were very totolitarian. By 1600, less tha 10% of Ireland was in Irish hands, the rest under harsh English landlords. Laws were passed prohibiting Irish Catholics from owning/possesing any weapons such as firearms or swords. The humble blackthorn stick was catapulted into use as a main weapon, with techniques and training passed from father to son. The blackthorn stick was the weapon of the common Irishmen. It was as ubiquitous as the walking staff of certain monks in asia. Think master PO.:D

When I was in the army, back about the time we moved from muskets to breechloders, we has an intersting class on makeshift weapons for pow's. It revolved around sticks. A towel rack torn off a wall, tree branch from the fire wood pile, a mop or broom handle broken off.

No matter how strict a socialist society can get, they can'r outlaw brooms, mops, shovels, rakes, hoe's, sledge hammers....

Some formal stick training from a good dojo, and a simple walking stick, is something that they can never outlaw. And the knowwledge is in your head forever, and the stick can even go right on an airplane with you. My blackthorn always flies with me.

Think about the stick.

[TAB]

1 1/4" black iron pipe 32-36" in lenght. Not something you want to get hit with at any speed. Seeing how I'm a general contractor, I've got a very good reason to have on hand...

[bikerdoc]

Think Stick.
Then think sharp pointy stick
Then think stick training
Think Simple and basic stuff, a bar of soap or a rock in a sock, a frying pan, rolling pin, chair leg, lamp, belt with a rodeo buckle( my personal favorite), flash light. you get the idea.
But first before it gets to weapons, use your brain and think layered defense, harden and alarm the abode, good visability all around, and situational awareness, have a plan, then think about the old axiom, a good plan can always be better, and the outcome bears no resmblance to the plan once the stuff hits the blades

[Deus Machina]

If you can still carry a weapon, just not a gun, a sword would be great.

For around town, like other said, a stick of some sort.

Or, there's the middle ground--the mace. The modern baseball bat would be a good trade. There's a reason this type was the preferred weapon in the crusade.

"Here's a sword, now we're going to spend the next six months training you with it."
"Here's a flail, now we're going to spend three weeks training you to swing it over shields and not harm yourself with it."
"Here's a mace. Go hit someone."

[Carl Levitian]

"Here's a sword, now we're going to spend the next six months training you with it."
"Here's a flail, now we're going to spend three weeks training you to swing it over shields and not harm yourself with it."
"Here's a mace. Go hit someone."

Deus, I love that!:D

What's even more cool, is that it's probably true!

[Thruhike98]

Carl Levitian: I've read with great interest/awe/humor your post about your blackthorn and the pitbull. (I hope your dog is no worse for wear.) I've long been a big fan of a good stick, and it became a natural appendage during long-distance hiking. My 5' one for hiking is too much in town. What length are these sticks from Irish history, and those you tote today?

[dagger dog]

For every day carry but I don't think you could conceal it,a quarterstaff or the oriental bo, backed up with a a short sword or dirk, and for long range work, slung over your back a quiver full of 30" broadhead arrows and a long bow.

Home defense would be some dogs of war perhaps a couple Irish wolf hounds one of each sex or possibly mastiffs, and a flock of geese for watch dogs, plus a locker full of bolts and a couple cross bows, not heavy enough to require a device for cocking but rather something that would be easy for multiple shots , some caltrops, and a few pungi pits placed strategically about the grounds in a pattern known only to the family. You get the idea!

[Carl Levitian]

Hey Thruhike, My blackthorn sticks are cut to me.

To figure out your own length, get a second person to help you. Put your walking stick handle down on the floor right next to your foot by your ankle. Now stand strait up, no slouching, and let your arms hang naturally down by your sides. Wear the shoes you will wear 90% of the time. If you live in athletic shoes wear them. If you wear casual Rockports or western cowboy boots, do so. Have the second person mark with a pencil where the stick is by the inside crease in your wrist. Add a 1/4 inch for safty, and cut there. I always cut a bit long because if you use it a while and don't like it, you can always trim a little off.

So in a nutshell, the right length for you is from the ground to the inside of your wrist.

My woods hiking stick is a biblical rod. As in "Thy rod and thy staff will comfort me." This is the distance from the ground to your lowest rib. For me thats about 44 inches. A bit less than 4 feet. A 5 foot staff is just to unwieldly for my taste. I find the shorter stick is more manouverable in woods, thick brush, and faster to move than a long stick.

My other favorite lenght is the cut off shovel handle under the seat of my Tacoma. It's from the elbow to the tip of my fingers. Good for fast close work.

[Macmac]

This topic always makes me angery. If all guns are banned it won't be the USA anymore, and so I will still have my guns because I say so.

If they come and take my guns, they better come back every day for the one I made over night. Sooner or later someone would need to bring body bags.

(mods please don't lock this post. If you feel the need, remove my post, or tell me to and I will.)

If I am reduced to a stick, it will be tipped in 8" long obsidian. That is if they ban steel too. In NH USA the woods is full of steel from old and gone logging. The Govt will be very busy I guess.

[Thruhike98]

Thanks for the info Carl - good stuff! And... if I bump into a guy with a Tacoma who's reaching for a stick, I'll be sure to identify myself. :)
I'm beginning to see what you mean about five feet being too long. It's great for stream crossings, but for the rest of the time it's a little much.

[ReadyontheRight]

Carl L. - Any idea where a person could buy a nice piece of blackthorn to make a nice shillelagh?

To the original question -- I would arm myself with a partnership with my neighbors and we would probably have a heirarchy to respond quickly to threats. Kind of a neighborhood NATO. I believe they are also called "gangs".

Without guns we would quickly devolve to a feudal system. Most likely as subjects.

[druber]

Staffs and other shorter sticks are a good alternative because it is a lot easier to keep things non-lethal if need be, or if you want to switch to lethal you can do so easily. Not to mention, if you have to you can always sharpen an end of the staff and have a make shift spear to make switching to lethal attacks a lot easier.

[Carl Levitian]

Hey Thruhike, I just noticed you're near D.C. !

If ya want, we could meet up and I'll show you some of my sticks and short staves. If you want to pick up a good blackthorn, go over to Alexandria to a shop called the Irish Walk. It's right down near the river front in old town. They used to have a nice selection of rustic ones from County Kerry.

ReadyontheRight, I don't know your area much, try to find an irish shop in your neck of the woods.

Or;

Go out and find a low laying area of woods with a stream, and see if there is any hornbeam growing there. I've made rustic walking sticks by digging around the base of hormbeam sapplings to find one with a nive angled root knob. Theen I dig it up by the root. let it cure down the basement for several months, then trim off, buff with 0000 steel wool, and finish with Helmsman Spar Urathane. Hornbeam is everybit as tough as blackthorn.

[Thruhike98]

How'd you guess that Carl? I was intentionally vague - I didn't list which country's capital. ;) I'd like to met up, say hi, and talk walking sticks. I'll look for Irish Walk next time I'm in Old Town.

You might be interested in these two (http://www.petelorenz.com/janka_hardness_scale.htm) links (http://www.sizes.com/units/janka.htm) about wood strength. Dogwood does very well, but they are dying out due to a blight so I'm careful to only harvest deadfallen wood (unfortunately with the blight, this not a problem).

[Yosemite Sam]

* For the home: baseball bat

* Out and about: Get good with a sling and rocks. Hey, it took out Goliath.

* What I currently do: I have a 26" steel telescopic baton (10" closed) that I [legally] conceal carry OWB pretty much all day, every day on my weak side about 9:00-10:00. It's concealed by sticking the bottom end in my left front pocket and the top end is covered by another layer of clothing. Hurts when I get in my car when it's tucked in -- jabs my side if I don't remember.

[RandyB]

If we have no guns, then my bet is we shall be in a state very similar to the jews in germany during WWII. So my answer is explosives, handmade guns, edged weapons and lots of prayer.

[Landlocked Pirate]

My other favorite lenght is the cut off shovel handle under the seat of my Tacoma. It's from the elbow to the tip of my fingers. Good for fast close work.

I've got something similar beside the seat in my truck, but it's called a "tire checking tool" and is labled as such (I picked it up at a truckstop for $5). It has a steel band around one end and a leather lanyard on the other. And because it's technically a "tool", I can even bring it onsite in my vehicle at work, where "weapons" are outlawed.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

For home defense, IMO:

Short swords (chisa katana, dirk, gladius, long bayo, machete, kuhkri, etc.)

Spear

Dogs


The pocket folder I choose to carry when I'm not carrying a handgun is this one:

http://www.gerber-tools.com/Gerber-Applegate-Fairbairn-Combat-5780.htm

With the backside also sharpened (it's not sharp from the factory).

[crebralfix]

Knife

Maybe a stick.

I'd certainly be a lot more serious about my AMOK! work.

[Duke of Doubt]

I'd have a problem, because while my state is very pro-gun and pro-concealed carry, it has strict laws against concealed knives and many other concealed weapons. I'd likely go Paul Bunyan and carry a hatchet openly on my belt.

Home defense is easy -- anything at hand. Monadnock T batons are legal around here, and make excellent doorway and car weapons.

National defense is easy as well -- matches and gasoline.

[Carl Levitian]

Thinking about this senerio, I can only imagine it happening if the Constitution falls, or is watered down to useless by a convention.

If that did indeed come about, I can well imagine we will be living in a very rigid Soviet style system. I doubt even the carrying of a lockblade knife will be tolerated, as in the U.K. today. Small slip joints only. Same as in Ireland and Japan if I understand it right. No protection against stop and search, no protection of you home being invaded and searched by storm troopers. Life in the new Amerikan Socialist Republik will be life under a microscope of informants, wire taps, and survailance. Big brother will be watching.

I heard in Autrailia they can't even have sling shots or cheap junk costume swords.

Makes it even more important that all you're stuff looks normal. Everyday items.

Where's Master Po when we need him?

[357wheelgunner]

Very interesting thread!

I was thinking about the same thing the other day, and came to the conclusion that if all guns were banned, I would feel comfortable defending myself with a stick or a knife, or even with open hands.

I really don't understand the utter dependancy many have on guns for home defense(not that firearms aren't the best first choice, but they certainly aren't the only option). It's not like a home invasion involves a duel at 20'. You can easily position yourself to ambush the home invader as he comes around a corner, and at contact range a trained martial artist is much more dangerous than the guy with the handgun who has no training and shoots sideways on a good day.

Guns are great, but it's a bad idea to be totally dependent on anything....

[wheelgunslinger]

Well, I realize the bow is unpopular, but I'd always prefer ranged to close quarter combat. And, if I can do that, I will. And, I'm better than your average archer with a stickbow after more than two decades of practice.

And, if someone gives me the bum's rush, I reckon they won't like a broadhead in the eye anymore than I would.

I've also studied AiKiDo (and continue to) so I'm not bad at joint locks and such.

Up close and personal, I'd likely want a blade or an impact weapon like a stick.

John Shirley's comments about the spear are right on. I would feel very well defended with a spear in hand.

[Dirty Bob]

Carl's right: think sticks.

If they totally ban guns and get away with it, they'll keep going, with swords and other medieval weapons being banned as well. Look at the UK, where some members of Parliament have suggested banning pointy kitchen knives!

If I were picking a non-firearm for home defense, I really like the madu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madu) -- a double-ended spear with a small shield in the middle. It's a parrying weapon from India, that was usually made with two antelope horns joined at the butts and with the tips often sheathed in steel. I would use it with a short sword in the primary hand, but that lower spear point is the real weapon: it's great for going after feet, legs and even the lower abdomen. It's light and quick, and the edge of the buckler would also be dangerous for an opponent. I've faced the madu in the SCA, and it was a beast to deal with in the hands of someone who knew how to use it.

Away from my home, however, I'd be back to the stick. If anyone wants a quick, basic intro to stick fighting, I generally think of John Styers' classic book: Cold Steel. His chapter on the stick is very well done and focuses on the two-handed use of the stick. I can speak from experience that a two-handed blow from a stick, with the person's body weight behind it, is very, very unpleasant to receive. I was fortunate not to have been seriously hurt.

I found that Steyrs' book is still available from Amazon, or you can ask your local librarian to get it for you from another library, if they don't have it.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

[Stainz]

Especially around the home, a great protective everyday device is a golf club - specifically, a good iron. A trip to the local thrift store can get you a couple for a few bucks. As you swing, lunge, or just jab with it, the mass is at the end and impact can be over a small area, inflicting significant injury. Easier/safer to use than a baseball bat, too. As my favorite and only way to 'golf' involves holes with windmills, pirates, and clown faces, you must blame my watching TV's 'Burn Notice' for this idea.

Stainz

[Mp7]

I´m with JShirley.

Get a nice hard stick and practice with it.

You can keep the two "extensions" in a pouch
to improve the stopping power when needed:
http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-536-300-spearhead-and-butt-cap.aspx

a martial artist with a spear is almost unbeatable without
a ranged weapon....

[KevinAbbeyTech]

Perhaps buying up a pile of machetes would be a good idea.
You can get them cheaply army surplus.

[red_metallic]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/trueneutral/Human%20Inbox/tableShield.jpg

Night stand becomes the defensive weapon + shield.

An ax would be a very effective offensive weapon. If your defense is a strong offense, an ax w/ a 36" handle would be nasty.

No comment on chemical deterrents? Seems like a can of crowd blaster pepper spray would be good on multiple assailants while keeping some distance.

[357wheelgunner]

Red Metallic,

Welcome to the High Road!

Do you have a link to that table? That's awesome, and would make a great conversation piece...

[Macmac]

That table is just funny, but it's good just the same. I might make one for my converstion van.

[Travis Bickle]

I'd go with a machete. They've been used effectively as weapons countless times and don't require much training.

I second that. The most popular weapon in the world after the firearm is the Machete. Every third-world peasant has one. I'm sure there are good reasons for this.

[Panabas]

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Muay Thai Kickboxing
Wrestling
Eskrima

Balisong (http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=42)
Barong (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Barong.html)
Panabas (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Panabas.htm)
Karambit (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Karambit.html)
Sticks/Rods

[red_metallic]

The table / club would be a British design of course. What you get when you've lost your guns and now knife carry gets you locked up as well.

Cowering behind his locked hollow-core door James readied himself for the barbarians........ (http://www.jamesmcadam.co.uk/portfolio_html/sb_table.html)

http://www.jamesmcadam.co.uk/images%20_scenarios/S_B_Table_in_use%5Bfw%5D.jpg

[Bakeneko]

I am actually in a country right now that bans the possession of pistols as well as most forearms. Because of my status, I am not allowed to own anything.

What I have around the house is just about every other weapon ever used by man.

Sticks are good. Sticks can be laid anywhere in the house and not attract attention. They also are not going to be as big a problem if kids pick them up. The sword, spears and other bladed objects are not as at hand.

When I go out, I always have a Surefire flashlight modified to be a "Te no Uchi." I carry the damn thing not because I want a weapon, but because it is so nice to have a flashlight when things get dark. I also sometimes carry a pocket knife. If I suspect trouble, pepper spray. I am trained in the use of all of these weapons. If I did not have an interest in combat arts and spent as much time as I do training with them, I am sure I would probably carry something easy to use.

[cliffy]

We'd be screwed as a Nation. How many armed foreign troops could you drop with a drop-point folding hunter? Socialized Socialistics might come to our rescue in true Communistic fashion, but would it be instantaneously? cliffy.

[KevinAbbeyTech]

I've got something similar beside the seat in my truck, but it's called a "tire checking tool" and is labled as such (I picked it up at a truckstop for $5). It has a steel band around one end and a leather lanyard on the other. And because it's technically a "tool", I can even bring it onsite in my vehicle at work, where "weapons" are outlawed.

I actually asked a trucker at a truck stop if those were just a lame excuse to carry something that could potentially beat the snot out of someone.

He replied "Pretty much."

[seeker_two]

How many armed foreign troops could you drop with a drop-point folding hunter?

Depends....all you'd have to drop is one & then you'd have his weapons....kinda like the philosophy behind the Liberator pistols of WWII....

If only the military & LEOs (& criminals) have firearms, then finding one won't be as much a problem as some think....

[usmc1371]

I like the idea of one of those huge cans of bear spray, the kind that says caution expremley flamible and a zippo. A small yappie dog and a large quiet dog. And my framing hammer, in the hands of a guy who swings a hammer alot it could be effective. can't go wrong with machatte.
one mind any weapon, semper fi