.308 limits


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Readyrod
January 23, 2009, 09:32 AM
I've been reading posts about the .223 Remington and I get the idea that it starts to reach its limit at about deer size. (though I realize that many factors are involved) What would be the limit for the .308? At what size game does this round start to reach its limits assuming relatively normal conditions. I was also wondering what you guys think would be a good common round for even larger game than the .308 can handle. (Would I need to go to Africa for game that size?)

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TexasRifleman
January 23, 2009, 09:53 AM
Personally I would feel OK hunting any North American game with a proper loading of .308.

Not sure I'd go after dangerous animals with it unless it was in a FAL or something :) , but I would feel OK using it for everything else.

madcratebuilder
January 23, 2009, 09:54 AM
A .308 in the proper location should take any north American game animal.

Jim Watson
January 23, 2009, 10:24 AM
I think the .223 is all the way up to its limit at deer.

The .308 is equal to the ORIGINAL* .30-06 which has been used on ALL game. I don't think I would hunt brown bear with either, but it is fine for everything else in North America. A friend hunted African plains game with a .338 on one trip, .300 Win Mag the other with no complaints either time.

*Yes, I know the .30-06 has been souped up, starting about 1925, and has more case volume and more "potential" in the gunzine writer's favorite "strong action" but that is not what I was talking about.

Vern Humphrey
January 23, 2009, 12:34 PM
The modern .30-06 is not your grandfather's .30-06. With modern powders and bullets, it really will do everything the .300 Win Mag used to do.

R.W.Dale
January 23, 2009, 12:37 PM
the 308 at to a somewhat better extent 30-06 would be fine for any and all NA game and african plains game species that don't bite back. Including NA Cougar and Black bear 308 would be a fine choice for those smaller predators

Add teeth and claws and I'll opt for a bigger hole and much more muzzle energy thank you

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 12:53 PM
the 308 at to a somewhat better extent 30-06 would be fine for any and all NA game and african plains game species that don't bite back. Including NA Cougar and Black bear 308 would be a fine choice for those smaller predators

Add teeth and claws and I'll opt for a bigger hole and much more muzzle energy thank you

Bullet placement and bullet construction is the best medicine against species that bite back..no caliber or muzzle energy (up to a point of course)

The good old 303 British sent countless lions to the feline heaven as many other similar calibers that nowdays are considered marginal for smaller species.

In a lion charge a well placed 170 gr. flat point 30-30 slug it will stop the critter where a 460 Weatherby Magnum in the guts is going to get you mauled or killed.

For the OP, assuming appropriate bullets for the situation, if you shoot your rifle very well within the range limitation of the caliber, the 308 is good for anything in North America.

R.W.Dale
January 23, 2009, 01:12 PM
Bullet placement and bullet construction is the best medicine against species that bite back..no caliber or muzzle energy (up to a point of course)


In a lion charge a well placed 170 gr. flat point 30-30 slug it will stop the critter where a 460 Weatherby Magnum in the guts is going to get you mauled or killed.

That's fine for the supermen amongst us. But for most mere mortals as the likelihood of getting eaten increases marksmanship skill tends to decrease exponentially as an inverse. Couple that with the fact that animals hell bent on your destruction tend to move quickly and I'll see your 30-30 and raise you a 375H&H

The good old 303 British sent countless lions to the feline heaven as many other similar calibers that nowdays are considered marginal for smaller species.


Needless to say I doubt the blokes around the hunt club in the late 19th early 20th tended to wow their peers with thrilling tales of it's spectacular failures. I wonder why many of our current DG cartridges are of British origin?

Ever hear the quote that history is written by the victors. When a deer runs 150yds after a heart lung hit it's simply a minor inconvenience. When the same thing happens with a lion you become kitty chow

bpl
January 23, 2009, 01:23 PM
I'll take all North American game species except Grizzly/Brown/Kodiak bears and Polar Bears for two Alex! Distance limit of300 yards or less.

Titan6
January 23, 2009, 01:25 PM
There isn't much difference between .308 and .30-06. .30-06 is generally considered good enough for anything in NA and so is the .308. Can you do better? Well of course you can. But if you are on budget than you are better off with one of the aforementioned choices.

blitzen
January 23, 2009, 01:26 PM
By picking your shot and being a responsible hunter the .308 is an adequate cartridge for anything on the North American continent. Although it will kill them, I wouldn't go hunting brown bear with one. That's were I make the jump to somthing more substantial like the .375. For where I'm at I use it for everything.

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 02:33 PM
Krochus

The golden era of African Safari was when there were used rifles with muzzle energy now considered anemic...303 British, 7 mm Mauser and countless others..

Yes there were the NE cartridges and similar...but they were considered Elephant or other thick skinned cartridges.

In a very old gun book that I have ,the 375 H&H was considerd an elephant gun.

When the super uber Magnum (Weatherby and the likes) arrived, the Safari era was largely over.

Yes more people died at that time hunting lions....well more people hunted lions at that time to begin with, not all of them with an army of backup guides. Bullet technology was in its infancy...

Lord de Grey lost his life when he fired is 280 Ross against a charging lion..it was a perfect shot but the primitive soft point bullet of the time could not withstand the 3000 fps of velocity and disintegrated on its way to the vitals.

Yes nowdays you have less chances of dying in the typical canned Lion hunt when you have 2-3 guys or even more backing you up with portable howitzers.

Now please explain why in an hypotetical, let's say 40-50 yards charge a well placed 30-30 flat nose bullet to the vitals is less deadlier than a 375 bullet delivered in the exact same spot...I would like to know...in that situation you need a CNS hit to stop the charge...doesn't matter 30-30 or 375..if you get there, lights out.

Bear in mind..I'm not advocating a 30-30 for lion hunting at all...rainbow trajectory, energy at distance etc..we all now that...I'm talking about close and personal...at 40 yards a properly constructed 30-30 bullet (for example the Federal partition) will go through muscle and heavy bones with aplomb....too bad I did not take pictures with my cellphone of the level of penetration a friend of mine got at 50 yards from his Grizzly Cartridge 170 gr. 30-30 on a stack of heavy bovine bones backstopped by layers of carpet, a wood sheet and a live oak. Hard cast were even more impressive

My first rifle in the US was (and still is) a Mauser 98 Sporter rechambered in 30-06 I bought from a very old South African Cardiologist retired in the US...and it got few lions under his belt, he never felt undegunned.

He told me.."Lions are formidable creatures...extremely strong willed, can be vicious and incredibly dangerous...but he said at best the male lion is a 500-550 pounds thin skinned creature...you have to win your fear first and don't lose yoru concentration...a bigger gun won't help if yu don;t know what to do"

I was fascinated by his stories and his pictures.

Elmer Keith considered the 270 Winchester a "Coyote gun", Jack O'Connors instead praised the caliber and used it extensively all around Africa..both experienced men, different opinions

From Chuck Hawks website your can read this article

http://www.chuckhawks.com/magnums_foreign_game.htm

An excerpt:

The .300 Magnums are suitable for hunting the big predators, so at last we have stumbled upon game for which they make sense. However, this is a rather specialized application, far removed from most big game hunting, and in many African countries a .375 is the legal minimum required for lion hunting. Granted, such laws make no sense, but the bottom line is that .300 Magnums are often not allowed for hunting the king of beasts. They are legal for hunting grizzly, brown and polar bear in North America, but this is domestic, not foreign, game.


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2003/mauser983006zi7.jpg

R.W.Dale
January 23, 2009, 02:44 PM
I take it you haven't shot many critters. Animals can do a great deal of living after even the most perfect hits. The difference between a 30-30 and a 375 is the latter has much more pontental power, penatration bullet mass and energy to break down large bone and muscle structures on a very fast and deadly animal. All things being equal with reguards to shot placment the more powerful round shooting the bigger and heavier bullet will always do more damage. PERIOD

Now please explain why in an hypotetical, let's say 40-50 yards charge a well placed 30-30 flat nose bullet to the vitals is less deadlier than a 375 bullet delivered in the exact same spot...I would like to know...in that situation yu need a CNS hit to stop the charge...doesn't matter 30-30 or 375..if you get there lights out.


I reject this notion utterly, it would be like saying a .22 is as good as .357mag for SD because you have to get a CNS hit anyway. With a CNS hit just about all cartridges are equal from .22 to .458 but to say that killing potental in a hunting situation is the same because of this is not a legitimate arguement. I've seen a lot of silly caliber comparisons but 30-30 being as good as 375H&H takes the cake...and all coming from a guy who doesn't think a 7.62x39 can compare to a 30-30 :rolleyes:

Ben Shepherd
January 23, 2009, 02:52 PM
I don't do this ofter, but +1 bpl.

Slug constuction must be chosen carefully however.

R.W.Dale
January 23, 2009, 02:59 PM
Slug constuction must be chosen carefully however.

yes that cannot be stressed enough. From whitetail deer with a .223 to elephant with a .458 Lott. proper bullet construction for the game being hunted is of the utmost importance.

jpwilly
January 23, 2009, 03:08 PM
So in summary OP the 308 Win is enough (with the right bullet) for all hunts in North America with proper shot placement. If hunting Big Brown Bears I'd prefer something bigger. 45/70 or 12Ga Slugs come to mind.

Don't miss or you'll wish you were a Rodeo Clown!

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 03:15 PM
I haven't shot any critters but I did talk extensively with people that did, including the former owner of my Mauser and read a lot about the topic.

Did I said that a 375 H&H is as good as a 30-30?? Did I say that??

Read what I write, first, and then you comment on it.

A 22 would probably not break bone, and will be easily stopped deflected...same thing can happen with a high velocity very light 223 or 243 for that matter..too much velocity, bullet too light may come apart, be deflected, etc...
Nice try bringing the 22 in the picture....something like let's say 1/16th of the muzzle energy and less than 1/4 of bullet weight compared to a 30 WCF.....if math is not an opinion , the 30-30 is much more close to a 375 than a 30-30 to a 22.

Did I advocate a 30-30 for hunting lions??? (very different than short distance defense charge) Absolutely No

Would a 30-30 penetrate an Elephant skull?? Probably not.

Would a 30-30 flat nose lose too much energy at 100-150 yards and fail to penetrate where a 375 would still go lenght wise through a Lion?? Probably yes.

We are talking about a short distance charge...a 40-50 yards if I were a lion, I would not like to take a proper 30-30 170 gr slug in the vitals.

I saw a video of a ~100 yards headshot on a very big Elk with Federal partition 30-30 and the bull dropped like being hit by a lightning

Why don't you comment on people that been there and done that that said that the 375 is overkill for lions?? I posted the article....read it and comment on it.

Try this at home....go to a butcher and buy a nice big cow head and some knee bones, put them in front of a few layers of heavy carpet a hardwood plank against a live oak, then buy a box of Grizzly Cartridges 170gr, 30-30 or, better, some hardcast then shoot it at 50 yards with your leveraction, if you have one, and see what happen.....you may be surprised....

Than, finally, look at this bunch of idiots shooting all over the place trying to kill a lion and one of them almost getting mauled...their cannons did not help them that much....they are the one that deserve to be hunted...respect for the animal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohvxdbtHALA

Ridgerunner665
January 23, 2009, 03:16 PM
The 308 will do better than most magnums for anything in North America...

Mainly due to the fact that the shooter won't flinch...accuracy kills.

Bullets like Barnes TSX make the 308 a pretty formidable weapon...even though lots of "magnumitis" sufferers don't want to admit it.


I'd much rather hit a big bear in the "boiler room" with my 308 than gut shoot him with a 458 Win.

Vern Humphrey
January 23, 2009, 03:22 PM
I think the point some of us are making is that a good hit with a .30-06 is better than a bad hit with a .375. And a lot of people shoot the .30-06 better than they shoot the .375.

And with modern loadings and bullets, the .30-06 is a much better cartridge than it used to be.

R.W.Dale
January 23, 2009, 03:23 PM
Did I said that a 375 H&H is as good as a 30-30?? Did I say that??

pretty much

Now please explain why in an hypotetical, let's say 40-50 yards charge a well placed 30-30 flat nose bullet to the vitals is less deadlier than a 375 bullet delivered in the exact same spot...


We are talking about a short distance charge...a 40-50 yards if I were a lion, I would not like to take a proper 30-30 170 gr slug in the vitals.


I wouldn't feel good about 30-30's ability to stop a charging 150lb deer in that situation much less an 800lb apex predator. The lion may not like it but what would that matter to you after it rips your face off. Whilst not an ideal situation you chances of retaining your face are much much better with that same hit from a 375 or larger

I haven't shot any critters
the only thing in your post that bears on this discussion. Go shoot some LIVE animals with a 30-30 and tell me that it would do just fine on a short range charge from a *%#( LION

Stories you read in books and get told over the gun counter are just that. STORIES. If anything hunting tales are even more prone to embellishment than fishing stories and must be taken with a grain of salt

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 03:24 PM
Ridgerunner665

In few years the 50 BMG will be minimum mandatory for deer...you'll see...

R.W.Dale
January 23, 2009, 03:32 PM
Ridgerunner665

In few years the 50 BMG will be minimum mandatory for deer...you'll see...

how is that worse than the 17hmr for the big 5 trend you're advocating :neener:

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 03:42 PM
pretty much

Where, When???

When I said " let's say 40-50 yards charge a well placed 30-30 flat nose bullet to the vitals is no less deadlier than a 375 bullet delivered in the exact same spot... "

I mean in that situation the 375 is serious overkill, the 30-30 just....kill.....seems to me easy to understand....I did not mean the 2 caliber are equivalent.... a 22 and a 223 are the same?? not..but both can punch holes on a piece of paper...

I wouldn't feel good about 30-30's ability to stop a charging 150lb deer in that situation much less an 800lb apex predator


First, there are no 800 lb Lions.....talking about stories embellishment.
Evidently you never fired a 30-30 otherwise you would not write such purely utterly nonsense....again facts against words

60 yards big feral hog drop with a 30-30 pistol (TC Contender)
The fella never knew what did hit him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lfieq2wNGQ

However...
Why should I question other's people (people that I know and trust) stories and take yours as word of bible??

Again, I posted an interesting article from a very experienced person saying that the 375 is overkill for lions and you won't comment on that...short of arguments??

If one of the lion hunters in the video I posted tells me that he needs a bigger gun than his 375 for a Lion should I believe him???

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 03:44 PM
how is that worse than the 17hmr for the big 5 trend you're advocating

Again you twist words here..I NEVER advocated a 30-30 for big 5 hunting...

R.W.Dale
January 23, 2009, 03:55 PM
I mean in that situation the 375 is serious overkill, the 30-30 just....kill.....seems to me easy to understand..

what part of the 30-30 won't penetrate as deeply and destroy a much tissue as a 375 can't you comprehend.

Evidently you never firee a 30-30 otherwise you would not write such purely utterly nonsense....again facts against word

I own 4 30-30's and have killed many a critter with em

Evidently as you've never killed anything you haven't witnessed an animal with it's heart shot LOOSE run over 200yds. You cannot comprehend the diffrence from one video on the internet and real life where than animal doesn't always drop like on TV irregardless of cartridge. Even the best of hits don't produce instant kills and using an underpowered cartridge only amplifies this possibility. There's a reason good tracking skills go hand in hand with hunting.

You cannot also fathom the how it's an inconvenience that when your deer runs 100yds after being hit in the heart lung area but the same situation with a Lion can be DEADLY

Like I said take a rifle and use it to make something living be dead and get back to us. In the field it doesn't always go down like on youtube or the outdoor channel

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 04:17 PM
you haven't witnessed an animal with it's heart shot LOOSE run over 200yds

Your assumption.....I witnessed several hunts...as matter of fact up to last year here in WA...yes a deer with a heart blown in pieces can outrun you....if you blown that heart with a 30-30 or a 375 doesn't matter..heart is not a CNS hit...brain and spine are CNS hit

With the setup I described before (bull head, bones, backstop, etc...) at 50 yards my Marlin 336 went through it with ease....the bull head, the knee bones behind, the layers of carpet, wood backstop and ended on the live oak....last time I recall Lions are not steel plated....the flat nosed Federal Nosler Partition or, better, Grizzly Hawk at short distance will give you penetration and devastation nothing short of fenomenal...try yourself and maybe you will gain respect for the "little" 30 WCF

From the Garrett Cartridges web site:

Are our 44 Magnum loads really capable of handling grizzly? The answer is yes, in the hands of a reliable shot. From a comparative point of view, our 44 Magnum Hammerheads provide far more penetration than the 300-grain NosIer Partition fired from the 375 Holland & Holland. Also, both bullets present an extremely blunt front end (meplat). Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet. Since beginning production in 1988 we have had many customers defend themselves from grizzlies, and always our 44 Magnum ammo has provided super-deep penetration, generally to the hips on a frontally shot bear (even when the skull is engaged.)



Link: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/q&a.asp

So the diminuitive 44 Magnum, in that particular package, at short distance outpenetrate the mighty 375 H&H.

It that 30-30 slug get to the lion brain it will mash it, if it can get to the spine will sever it...

And definitely I would not get shooting advice from the idiot lion hunter I posted on video...

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 04:20 PM
Like I said take a rifle and use it to make something living be dead and get back to us. In the field it doesn't always go down like on youtube or the outdoor channel


I do not need to go on the "field" to know that not always things go as planned....and everything dependes on who goes on th field.....being able to afford a safari in Africa doesn't make someone automatically a good shot or an expert on ballistics.

Ridgerunner665
January 23, 2009, 04:24 PM
One question for all of you...

How many big bears are killed every year with handguns (44 Mag, 454 Casull, etc.)???

Compare 308 ballistics to those.

jpwilly
January 23, 2009, 05:00 PM
^^^ exactly and how did we get to talking big African deadly game from the OP's original Post. He was simply asking where does the 308 end in the acceptable stopping power debate. The most common answer is North America. If you leave this continent...double check with the locals!

Ben Shepherd
January 23, 2009, 05:26 PM
Readyrod-

Sorry this thread has degenerated in the matter is has....

Most times we all play nice here on THR. Anyhow- Buried in here seems to be the consensus that the 308 winchester cartridge (other calibers notwithstanding) with an apropriately chosen projectile is fine for anything in the lower 48, and just a touch weak for the big bears up north.

Vern Humphrey
January 23, 2009, 05:29 PM
That's a pretty fair summary.

Personally, I prefer the .30-06 because it offers a handloader a bit more, but if someone offered me a free hunt in Alaska if I'd agree to use a .308, I'd take him up on that offer.

jpwilly
January 23, 2009, 05:38 PM
If someone offered me a free hunt in Alaska if I'd agree to use a .308, I'd take him up on that offer.

Me Too I'd even be willing to carry some salmon with me I could carry this (here Grizzly Bear, here boy, kiss kiss kiss) :
http://www.freewebs.com/shootoutsgladiators/m60.jpg

whited
January 23, 2009, 06:28 PM
I shoot a .308.

I have to be honest that if I were hunting bear or moose, I might want
something a wee bit larger, shot placement being equal. .308 is a fine
round and I don't hunt bear or moose, so there you have it. I suppose if
I were going that route I might opt for a 7mm Rem Mag.

Girodin
January 23, 2009, 07:18 PM
My main hunting rifle is a 30'06 which is very close to a .308. I would likely use it for everything that can be hunted in NA save the following:

Bison, Brown/grizz/kodiak bears, polar bear and perhaps if I drew a moose tag I would use something a bit bigger, although a '06/.308 could be used.

As for all the lion nonsense I swear I have read this same debate more than once on here. It is tiresome. There is one person advocating the nonsense that he does and he has never hunted with the calibers in question nor has he hunted the animals in question. He is best ignored. If one cares what he has to say search his old threads.

Fred Fuller
January 23, 2009, 07:42 PM
It might be a good idea for some folks to take a voluntary vacation from this thread. It's beginning to sound downright antisocial around here.

lpl

John828
January 23, 2009, 07:54 PM
Sorry, Lee.

Rarely do we lock rifle or hunting threads, but this one got out of control with all the "back and forths" and all, but I think there is something productive in it all. We cannot all agree to disagree. Sometimes we have to hash it out until we eventually come together.

I plead for clemency for this thread for at least another 24 hours.

saturno_v
January 23, 2009, 07:56 PM
Perfect

We agree to disagree

I'm out, over.

hso
January 23, 2009, 08:53 PM
I'm moving this thread to the Hunting forum where we have some serious experts who have hunted nearly everything in North America and the "big 5" in Africa. We'll get several bits of expert advice from folks who have BTDT.

JShirley
January 23, 2009, 10:35 PM
There are couple of different ideas here. They all have at least some merit.

It is absolutely true that it's better to hit well with a smaller caliber than hit poorly (or miss) with a larger one.

It's also absolutely true that it's virtually impossible to guarantee an instant kill every time. When those moments happen while hunting dangerous game, heavier bullets with larger diameters do more damage when traveling at the same velocity as lighter bullets.

Once upon a time, there was a young man who had The Ultimate! Shotgun. It was the ultimate because he had done a lot of research before assembling it. This young man persisted in believing it would be an excellent idea to take on tough dangerous game such as Cape Buffalo with buckshot. It did not matter that this person had never been on a hunt. It did not matter that anyone with any sense/experience told him this was foolish. He persisted.

If I based my beliefs about what happens when deer are hunted on just my first deer kill, I would believe (as I actually did until I had enough experience to know better :( ) that deer, when shot, fall straight over in their tracks. Oh, and you can shoot them, one-handed from the hip, too. :rolleyes: (True story!) If you have sense, you don't prepare for the best-case scenario. You prepare for the reasonably likely worst-case ones. In those scenarios, heavy, large diameter rounds are much more successful at quickly stopping large dangerous game than smaller rounds, no matter where the hunt takes place. :rolleyes:

readyrod, two relatively common cartridges to move past where the .308 can take you would be the 7mm Remington Magnum, and the .35 Whelen. What is nice to have is what you might call "margin". Margin of error, margin of safety, margin of overkill, you name it. When life happens, it's nice to have a bit of margin. I would therefore not feel undergunned necessarily, if hunting moose with a .308 with good ammo, but I would be more comfortable with a .30-06, and a bit more comfortable yet with a 7mm or .300 Magnum. I also believe you should pay attention to the characteristics of your round. The .300 Winchester Magnum has a little more power in most loadings than the .35 Whelen, but if I was specifically wanting to hunt very large game, I'd prefer the heavier, large diameter bullets of the Whelen. The Whelen is a great round, that can be loaded lightly for whitetail, or loaded heavily for the biggest North American game, but if I was especially worried about encountering something large and deadly at close range, I'd prefer a good .45-70. Conversely, the .45-70 would be great for N American game at reasonable ranges, but if I wanted a more versatile cartridge with the ability to take longer range shots, I'd go for something like the 7mm Magnum.

"There is no best". People are different, areas to be hunted all have unique attributes, and the game in each should be considered. Even with something like whitetail deer, there can be a lot of variance. My Winchester 94 with stout .45 Colt loads may work great in the thicker woods I work, while that same combination would be completely unsuited for hunting across open fields. The 6mm Remington or .243 may be perfect for those longer field shots, but not the first choice if you thought you bump into a large hog or black bear. A .30-30 in skilled hands might drop 9 out of 10 lions dead with one cool headshot, but on that 10th shot, the shooter might have a very bad day- for as long as it lasted, anyway! On that 1/10 shot, the extra penetrative power from a .375 might make the difference between a trophy and a widow.

John

Readyrod
January 24, 2009, 07:29 AM
Hey guys, I hope I didn't start something. Just so you know you actually answered my question spot on. I'm going to draw the conclusion that the .308 can handle pretty much anything in North America up to grizzly. I assume a well placed shot with the right bullet would be ok for grizzly as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is important to me because when I lived in Canada I often went hiking and working in grizzly country. Though I only saw one up close once. The helicopter dropped me off about 50 yards from a really scared sow and her cub. I just got back into the helicopter but that was about 5 seconds away from?? S*** happens, you gotta keep your eyes open and carry a gun.
The Africa posts were good too. I've been to Africa twice, though not hunting. And it's amazing how easy it is to get too close to the game there. That's why I asked about the larger round. A guy I met ran after something that was scratching at the back of his tent until he heard the lion clear his throat. This was on Mt Kenya. I know I can't carry guns there but I'm curious.
At the risk of starting something else I read on Wikipedia that the 458 Winchester Magnum is a very popular round in Africa? Is this true? Is it justified? Can it take down elephant? BTW the scariest animal I saw in Africa was an angry rhino that came charging out of the bush at our truck. It was very impressive. Tho I wouldn't want to shoot one.

MCgunner
January 24, 2009, 09:39 AM
The .308 will kill anything I'll ever hunt. I think if I take on a south Texas Nilgai, I'll take my 7 mag and some partitions, but the .308 would kill it. It's FINE deer/hog medicine and will take elk to at least 300 yards. If I ever get to hunt elk, I'll be within that or I won't shoot.

Ben Shepherd
January 24, 2009, 09:48 AM
Since you asked about grizzly specifically.

Very marginal. Reason being the limits of the 308 to handle anything heavier than 180 grains. Most companies tend to have thier solids or ultra tough slugs between 190 and 220 grains in .308 diameter.

I'd think that there is a VERY short list of slugs that are lighter and still built tough enough. The barnes offerings might work well, maybe a trophy bonded bear claw, swift A-frame, possibly a nosler partition. But I would never attempt to tackle a griz with a 308 on purpose.

Vern Humphrey
January 24, 2009, 09:49 AM
For what it's worth, my dad killed a Sumatran Tiger in the late '30s with a Model 99 Savage in 250-3000. In the '40s in Etheopia, he killed a cheetah, a lesser Kudu good enough for Rowland Ward, and a host of plains game with the same rifle.

But for his lion, he used a .30-06.

retrieverman
January 24, 2009, 10:19 AM
I have killed game up to 300 pounds with a 308 that were one shot DRT.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/retrieverman/Picture208.jpg

JShirley
January 24, 2009, 12:32 PM
I'm pretty brassy, but I would take a slug-loaded 12 gauge over a .308 for bear defense every day of the week. Twice on Sunday.

John

H&Hhunter
January 24, 2009, 04:59 PM
Are our 44 Magnum loads really capable of handling grizzly? The answer is yes, in the hands of a reliable shot. From a comparative point of view, our 44 Magnum Hammerheads provide far more penetration than the 300-grain NosIer Partition fired from the 375 Holland & Holland. Also, both bullets present an extremely blunt front end (meplat). Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet. Since beginning production in 1988 we have had many customers defend themselves from grizzlies, and always our 44 Magnum ammo has provided super-deep penetration, generally to the hips on a frontally shot bear (even when the skull is engaged.)



Randy sells ammunition, Randy sells darn good ammuntion. BUT he is a master of deception he continually compares a square nosed solid from a less powerful round to soft point expanding bullets from far more powerful rounds as is the case here and then screams out loud how well his ammo penetrated. Lets compare that .44 Hammer head load to a 300 gr square nosed solid like a Barnes Banded Solid @ a nominal 2500 FPS out of a 375H&H.

Then you can come to internet and see people make statements like a .44 mag will out penetrate a .375H&H. Believe what you want, but buyer beware you might want to read the fine print before trying this in real life.

The .308 is used extensivley on elephant for croping operations throughout africa usually in the form of a highly expereinced game ranger or professional hunter and his FN FAL using 168 gr military style solids.

They are generally required to use a heavier caliber rilfe such as a .458 win mag until they have proven that they can reliably place a bullet into the brain from any angel, front, side, quartering. They are required to use the heavy caliber as an apprentice so that if they screw up they can recover the situation with a heavy solid bullet to the femur or the pelvis to stop the elephant. A .308 any .308 simply isn't capable of doing that on an elephant.

After they have proven that they are profcient on the brain shot they are allowed to use a smaller caliber rifle on elephant cropping operations. This is generally after about 50 or so elephants killed by the neophyte ranger.

So is the the .308 capable of taking elepahnt? You bet after you've taken 50 or so and can place your bullet perfectly into the brain everytime you are then ready to hunt elephant with a small caliber rifle such as .308 which is basically the equivlant of the .275 Rigby AKA 7X57 Mauser. At current prices for cull elephant tags that is about $250,000 USD in fees to get up and ready to hunt elephant with your .308.

All of this talk about what was used in the day and what the smaller calibers is capable of is fine for the arm chair bwanna. But in real life modern day safari hunting you want to shoot the heaviest rifle that you can no kidding shoot well. For many that is the .375H&H with quality 300 gr bullets. Never count on a PH or and "army" of armed assitants to dig you out of trouble. Generally speaking you'll have ONE count em ONE armed PH who you can sometimes count on to dig you out of trouble. The one time that I was involved in a serious no BS charge my PH was out of bullets I had to use my own shovel on that one.

Now the old addage of a well placed .308 bullet is better than a poorly placed .460 Weatherby is very true. However I have an addage as well, if a well placed .308 is good an equally well placed .470 NE is better. If you are going to shoot a heavy rifle spend the time and money to learn to do it right and then you won't have any of the problems that are so often brought up by people who've never learned to shoot a heavy and are scared of doing so. It is intimidating when you first start. I've had some very experienced shooters get real nervous when the big bore heavies come out. It's not to be taken lightly.

I am every bit as surgical with my .470 or my .404 with iron sights as I am with an iron sighted .30-30. I shoot my .375H&H like it was a .22 LR I don't even notice that it recoils anymore. It is all about practice training and field time. So why wouldn't I use a proper heavy rifle on dangeorus game?

One last thing and then I'll get off of my soap box. The statement about a canned lion hunt with an army of helpers is I am sure in refrence to that infamous clip of the guy almost getting tagged by the lion in the midst of crossing gunfire.

That is not what the vast majority of lion hunting is like. Most of it is done on open wild country on wild lions with one PH and possibly an armed game scout. The game scout in my situation headed for high ground when TSHTF. Probably just as well as wild random automatic AK fire probably isn't the best thing in that situation.;)

One last thing and then I shall go away. All of the PH's that I know who are involved in the culling of PAC critters (problem animal control) given the choice will use various .458's,Lott, Win ETC. or a smattering of other heavy rifles such as .416 rigbys .375 H&H .500 NE .470 NE so on and so forth. The game department guys use what they are issued.


Take it for what it's worth guys this has been my real life personal experience on the subject.

Ridgerunner665
January 24, 2009, 05:32 PM
308 for elephants...

That should stir some discussion...now maybe people will quit calling me crazy for saying I'd hunt grizzly with mine.

If I'm going after something dangerous...I want I rifle that I am intimately familiar with...ergonomics, capability, range, and trajectory.

For me, that is my 308...for others, the caliber may be different but the same principle still applies.

H&Hhunter
January 24, 2009, 07:16 PM
Ridge,

Grizzly bears don't get all that huge. They aren't all that much bigger than your big black bears. I would have no problem using a .308 Win on them with quality 180 gr bullets.

Coastal Brownies I would personally like a bit more.

Have you looked in to booking your hunt yet? There are some great deals out there right now.:)

I've seen some very attractive prices on interior grizz hunts in Alsaka.

Ridgerunner665
January 24, 2009, 07:20 PM
No I haven't looked into it...that hunt is little more than a daydream at this time...I'm laid off work (damn auto industry...I'm done with it), so that dream keeps moving further away.

But maybe one day...I haven't given up on it yet.

saturno_v
January 24, 2009, 07:21 PM
H&H Hunter summed it up very well.


However nobody here talked about hunting Elephants with a 308 or a 30-30 nor hunting lions with a 30-30.

However, elephants are very different animals than lions. 13000 pounds vs 500 max.

BUT he is a master of deception he continually compares a square nosed solid from a less powerful round to soft point expanding bullets from far more powerful rounds as is the case here and then screams out loud how well his ammo penetrated. Lets compare that .44 Hammer head load to a 300 gr square nosed solid like a Barnes Banded Solid @ a nominal 2500 FPS out of a 375H&H.


I do not think it's deception
He states very well that the comparison with a 375 is with a Nosler Partition....he didn't say the his .44 will outpenetrate a 375 in general, no matter what.....he specify the type of bullet...buyer beware and be informed indeed.

rbernie
January 24, 2009, 08:06 PM
However, elephants are very different animals than lions. 13000 pounds vs 500 max.
They have one very important characteristic in common - both can flat out KILL YOU if you don't kill them first.

If I had to take a shot at a charging lion, I would want to KNOW that I am shooting a round that will go in one end and come out the other end no matter what - not one that might do the trick if the shot is a perfect CNS hit or that possesses sufficient energy only for a broadside shot that doesn't hit major bone.

If you cannot grasp the essence of that statement, I do not know how you can offer an opinion on terminal ballistics in any good faith.

saturno_v
January 24, 2009, 08:14 PM
rbernie

In a charge, even if you get a shot that will go in and out even lenghtwise , if you do not hit the CNS you are in trouble....this is pretty much what every dangerous game hunter said on here and everywhere else.

Going completely through is not an instant kill guarantee...a CNS hit is....this is not difficult to grasp...

Few months ago on an eastern WA farm my friend shot a coyote with a 270 ballistic silvertips that blew a pass-through hole (heart and lungs gone and one leg almost severed) you could literally put your arm in...the critter still ran away...

They have one very important characteristic in common - both can flat out KILL YOU if you don't kill them first.

Absolutely.

Still one weight 13.000 pounds where the other tops at 500....

rbernie
January 24, 2009, 09:09 PM
In a charge, even if you get a shot that will go in and out even lenghtwise , if you do not hit the CNS you are in trouble....this is pretty much what every dangerous game hunter said on here and everywhere else.
Lengthwise chest shot gets you heart/lungs, maybe the spine, and probably a hip. The hip or shoulder will break them down.

Are you claiming that you're gonna shoot 'em in the head as they charge at you, to make that 308 work?

saturno_v
January 24, 2009, 11:14 PM
Lengthwise chest shot gets you heart/lungs, maybe the spine, and probably a hip. The hip or shoulder will break them down

Heart and lungs hits, especially in an enraged Lion (according to the experienced safari hunters), it's not going to insure a charge stop....a lenghtwise shot who knows how it flows...difficult to sever the spine and even a broken hip is not going to stop a big cat from hurting you if you are very close...use the search function and read some of H&H hunter stories on THR

Only CNS hit...brain or spine is 100% guaranteed on any game or human for that matter.

As far as I read on the topic (confirmed by H&H Hunter), on a frontal shot on a Lion is very very difficult to hit the brain and instead hit just the fatty mane...on top of that (my speculation) if you hunt your lion for a trophy head you do not want to pulverize the cat skull with a 470 NE blast close and personal.

You should have seen the conditions of that coyote when my friend tracked him down....if someone told me that an animal coud survive one second with that kind of damage, I would have laughed at his face.

Are you claiming that you're gonna shoot 'em in the head as they charge at you, to make that 308 work?

Again, I never advocated a 308 or a 30-30 for Lion or Grizzly hunting.

saturno_v
January 24, 2009, 11:21 PM
.308 which is basically the equivlant of the .275 Rigby AKA 7X57 Mauser.

H&H

With all due respect, an old 7X57 is not exactly the ballistic equivalent of a modern 308.
Looking at the ballistic tables of both rounds from the major manufacturers, the 7 mm Mauser stops at circa 2200-2300 ft/lb (RWS load a tad hotter) while the .308, in some particular hot loads still within the SAAMI specs for the caliber (for example Hornady, Double Tap, Corbon, etc...) can go over 3000 and on average is at 2600-2700.
Heavier bullets on average, slighly larger caliber.

It's like saying the a 30-06 is basically the equivalent of a 338 Win Mag...well not quite...

And modern bullet technology is far different than 100 years ago.

R.W.Dale
January 24, 2009, 11:24 PM
saturno why can't you simply admit you're completely lost on such matters. There's no shame in a man admitting to what he knows and doesn't know

As far as I read on the topic (confirmed by H&H Hunter), on a frontal shot on a Lion is very very difficult to miss the brain and hit just the fatty mane..

funny he says the exact opposite in YOUR other thread.

It is darn difficult to hit a lion in the brain in a frontal charge especially if you are standing up as the cut off angle makes the shot really difficult at short range. An experienced man given the time will kneel down to negate the cut off angle.

It is fairly common that people miss the brain on a charging lion. They usually shoot over the brain into the main hair or if they go low they break the jaw as described. Once a DG animal such as lion is wounded they are damn near bullet proof to anything other than a CNS disconnect. Buffalo are the same way.

reading comprehension skills are key

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397968&highlight=angle

saturno_v
January 24, 2009, 11:37 PM
Krochus

It was a typing mistake (trying to type fast while I'm doing other things doesn't help) that is exactly what I meant...instead of typing "hit" I typed "miss"...very hard to hit the brain and instead hit the fatty mane..if you read my entire sentence you'll see that I made a typing mistake and I apologize for that.

Thanks for pointing it out, I corrected the original post.

rbernie
January 25, 2009, 12:04 AM
So if it's too hard to hit the brain to be a reliable shot, and a front-to-back shot thru the vitals isn't to your liking, just how do you propose in your world of theory to drop a charging ANYTHING?

Or are you now painted into a corner whereby only a SPINE shot will drop them, since that is the only remaining CNS target that you've advocated and not yet abandoned.

saturno_v
January 25, 2009, 12:19 AM
First of all I think no hunter wants to experience a charge while lion hunting....I think.......it's not the desiderable outcome and situations like that should be avoided at all cost. To the experienced safari hunters, please correct me if I'm wrong

You should ask to the hunters about what is the best shot to stop a charge....H&H claims he can shoot a 375 accurately and easily like a 22 so maybe he would go for the brain...or the neck.....maybe is very difficult to stop a charge to begin with.....maybe if you blow the cat heart and lungs and manage to stay out of harm way long enough you are out of the woods...maybe you have an army of guides backing you up that showers the critter with an heavy fusillade...very unpredictable situation.....just ask them.

John828
January 25, 2009, 12:38 AM
24 hours didn't change much...

Readyrod
January 25, 2009, 06:49 AM
The reason I asked about the .308 was because I'm trying to get an idea of which guns I will eventually buy. Originally I just tried to make an "each gun for each occasion" list but it's just too many guns. I risk falling into a maintenance trap where I'm spending all my time maintaining and no time shooting. It happened to me a few years ago with bicycles. So now I just want a system that will cover everything. I'm figuring that the .223 Rem is a good critter round and it is easy to find. I like the Mini 14 because it seems reliable and it is semi auto. (I've worked on farms and the coyotes often traveled in pairs, it was a dairy farm so they weren't such a pest, tho they did drive the dogs mental) I thought that the .308 would be a good common round that could pick up where the .223 left off. Now I'm thinking that maybe I should think about something bigger or better. I don't want to get something that can handle up to grizzly, the .308, and have to get an extra gun just for grizzly. Is this realistic? What common easy to find round would be good for, say, deer to grizzly? The Africa thing is the same. I don't know if I will ever go hunting in Africa but it would be convenient (if it's realistic) to focus on one caliber/gun. Also, if I don't have too many guns I can focus, as one poster pointed out, on knowing and feeling comfortable with the gun that I have. I didn't see any lions in the wild in Africa but I was at the zoo a few weeks ago and I saw a lion do this jump up and run at another lion thing and that sucker was seriously fast. I wouldn't want to be fumbling around with my gun if it was coming for me. BTW even if you don't get to hunt there the game in East Africa is truly beautiful to see. Specially for kids.

Art Eatman
January 25, 2009, 10:02 AM
If I really went and cleaned up the off-topic junk on this thread, it would be a one-page deal.

Readyrod, the .308 is plenty good for anything in the NA continent but for the big bears. It's not the ideal for 500-yard shots on mountain goats/sheep or antelope, but for 95% of all other hunting it'll work just fine.

The .223 is a great varmint cartridge. I've killed coyotes, jackrabbits and a slew of prairie dogs. I wouldn't choose it as a deer cartridge, but it will work with good shot placement and the heavier bullets.

The Mini-14 is reliable for its first shot to go to the same point of aim this week as it did last month, even if it's not the thing for tight groups at the bench rest. It's a great little hunting rifle. I've used them as my truck gun, and was quite satisfied with the actual results in the field.

And if an African hunt is available at some time in the future, odds are that if you can afford the costs of the trip, the cost of a rifle is no big deal as an add-on expense. You have plenty of time to read up on that subject, and decide later on.

And cartridges suitable for Africa are at least a whole other thread. You not only have to consider capabilities, you are stuck with dealing with the laws of African countries concerning what you are allowed to use on certain game.

rbernie
January 25, 2009, 11:04 AM
The reason I asked about the .308 was because I'm trying to get an idea of which guns I will eventually buy. Originally I just tried to make an "each gun for each occasion" list but it's just too many guns.A 308 or 30-06 is a fine 'one-rifle' solution if hunting game (as opposed to varmints) in North America is the principal purpose.

Readyrod
January 25, 2009, 11:06 AM
Sorry I don't know the etiquette quite yet. Should I call it quits with this one and start another thread or two? BTW thanks about the mini 14 info. It does seem like a great back of the truck/tractor kind of a gun. As for hunting in Africa I can always dream. I will go back though. I've got to see the wildebeest migration at least once in my life.

John828
January 25, 2009, 11:16 AM
Not your problem readyrod, you asked a fair question. It was the bickering that doomed the thread.

Get yourself a .308 and love it, shoot it, clean it, and love it some more. Many have done so and never looked back, but that can be said for every caliber.

qajaq59
January 31, 2009, 08:31 AM
Considering you can load a 200 gr bullet for the .308 I'd say there isn't much that it wont kill with a properly placed shot. But that properly place shoot usually requires some real hunting skills.

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