Carrying while paintballing


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zahc
September 29, 2003, 12:39 PM
hmm.

In a couple weeks I'm going on an all out 36 hour flag scenerio game in the woods. Lots of woods. The flags are miles apart. It goes on nonstop even at night. So I'm going prepared with a compass, first aid, food, fire stuff, and ...

hmm.

I really like taking guns with me in the woods. To add scary material to the situation my local DNR guy claims they've been getting mountain lion sightings (most likely released pets).

It's gonna be weird going without a gun.

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SodaPop
September 29, 2003, 12:42 PM
Would you bring it if you were scuba diving?

What happens if you're running around the course and find out your gun fell out of the holster and somebody calls the police because they found a real gun on the paintball course?

Leave it in your car.

auschip
September 29, 2003, 12:46 PM
Is this a sanctioned event, or are you and a couple buddies just going to be playing in the woods? If it is a sanctioned event, a large portion of what you are planning to bring will not be allowed on the field. More information is required, but my gut reaction says that it should be left in the car.

MJRW
September 29, 2003, 12:52 PM
It doesn't sound like a good idea to mix live, real, lethal firearms with live non-lethal weapons.

zahc
September 29, 2003, 12:54 PM
I don't know about sanctioned, but it is an organized event, sort of a club deal on private preoperty, and pretty large in scope (dozens of people, local shop there selling paint and air etc.). All the things I mentioned (compass, first aid, food, fire stuff, folding saws) are allowed.

gun-fucious
September 29, 2003, 12:57 PM
A smart mountain lion would backoff when meeting a hail of 68 caliber orbs at 20 RPS

NO guns, knives, or tools allowed on field during any paintball event

after 1 hour of 300 people tromping with full gear thru 100 acres,
any wildlife is gonna be exiting stage left

the flares and night fights will keep them at bay all evening

What are you gonna do with a handgun,
when you hear something stalking you?
Pull it and plug a team member looking for a prop?

zahc
September 29, 2003, 01:04 PM
20bps? I have a tippmann.

NO guns, knives, or tools allowed on field during any paintball event
You are not making the rules for this one.

Pendragon
September 29, 2003, 01:15 PM
Sounds like a seriously bad idea to me.

Even if you need your gun, with that many people, its pretty unsafe to just go shooting it off.

I see a knife as more ok and I have heard of people fighting off mt lions with knives. Really though - mt lions got a few people in NorCal when I was there - but it was always unaware joggers - they have a serious chase instinct. I think that if you are just plodding through the woods, even if you see one, you stand tall, look big and stand your ground - they will usually leave.

Having a live gun in an even that is about shooting people with fake guns just gives me the willys.

I think that since guns are probably not allowed (I assume), that you should respect the land owner and your club and either go without one or stay home. Bringing one is a lot more likely to put a mark on your club and make the land owner never allow this event again. Ohh - wouldnt you like to be THAT guy :what:

MJRW
September 29, 2003, 01:15 PM
Well then, zahc, why did you ask if when someone states a position all you do is tell them they aren't making the rules? Fine, carry. Shoot that mountain lion sneaking up on you with all the ruckus. Mountain lions are notorious for attacking paintballers.

Is that more in line with what you are looking for?

Keith
September 29, 2003, 01:20 PM
In Ohio? The only emergency gear you need is a cell phone to order pizza!

Keith

zahc
September 29, 2003, 01:22 PM
I'm sorry but gun-fucious' post was unclear.

He didn't say "I think Guns...should not be allowed" he said

NO guns, knives, or tools allowed on field during any paintball event

Like he was the ultimate authority and made all the rules. It seemed arrogant, and I put him back in his place.

I will not carry. Wasn't going to. I was mostly pointing out a situation in which carry is a bad idea (better than the nudist camp one).

Gun-fucious' post seemed to me a little hostile.

gun-fucious
September 29, 2003, 01:31 PM
sorry, dood

i play on a sponsored Scenario Team and i have a sport to protect

let me clarify

No MXS, VIPER, Blackcat, Waynes or other "real deal" scenario event will permit weapons on the field. Mother & Bobby from MXS won't allow costume wooden swords on the field.

There are quite a few games left in the season:
http://www.scenariopaintballcalendar.com/

Insured Paintball fields do not permit weapons on the field

auschip
September 29, 2003, 01:35 PM
The odds are very good, that these will not be allowed. The reason behind that, is the insurance fields must carry. I would be happy to look into it a bit more for you, but I have only found info for one scenario going on in OH during October, and that one they do not allow any of the items you are refering to on the field (a Black Cat scenario held in Youngstown on Oct. 11th & 12th. Anyway, hope you have fun.

Quartus
September 29, 2003, 01:53 PM
mountain lion sightings (most likely released pets).




:confused: "Released pets"? You can have a mountain lion for a pet in Ohio?

Vitamin G
September 29, 2003, 01:55 PM
gun-fuchious, what sponsored team do you play on? I play on Close Call (now Punisherspb.com) in the PSP 5man.

gun-fucious
September 29, 2003, 02:09 PM
Dead-by-Dawn, we play low speed, high drag, full befuddlement Scenario ball

We are always in the PB magazines cause we dress to depress

heres my baby:
http://www.darkviking.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10060/siterail.JPG
she just got back from an evil eye upgrade
it will shoot as fast as a halo can squirt, ~25 BPS



:)

wingnutx
September 29, 2003, 02:11 PM
Lock it in the car.

If I found a gun on the field during play I would call a halt to the whole evolution, just like I would if I found a single round of live ammo in a miles-gear exercise.

Oleg Volk
September 29, 2003, 02:14 PM
Why not carry a backup in deep concealment. Drawing it would require enough thought that an accidental deployment wo't be an issue. No one would know, unless every player gets frisked...in which case, that's not a friendly event.

Jeff White
September 29, 2003, 02:37 PM
Never under any circumstances carry a casualty producing weapon or ammunition while working with any force on force scenario!

It dosen't matter if it's paintball, airsoft, MILES, FATS or laser tag. The chances of a tragic accident are too great to chance it. It hasn't been but about a year ago since a Force Recon Marine was killed in a training exercise where live ammuntion was present along with blanks. Murphy lives. If it can happen to these highly trained Marines who had all kinds of SOPs in place that are designed to prevent that from happening, it can happen to you.

Deep concealment doesn't get you anything. If it's in deep enough concealment that accidental presentation isn't a problem, you'll most likely dig it out in advance if you sense a threat. The accidental presentation is a problem. How many threats do you expect to meet out there? What kind of threats? Are they going to be sufficiently different and present themselves to you with enough notice that you'll have time to switch from your paintball gun to your real gun? I really don't think so.

I have seen the barrel blown off an M16 when it was fired with a blank adapter on when live ammo was mixed with blanks. Fortunately no one was injured. Even though the BFA is designed to blow off, the flash suppressor was gone along with a bit of barrel.

It's just about one of the most unsafe things you can do.

Jeff

Oleg Volk
September 29, 2003, 02:41 PM
I defer to Jeff's practical experience.

Black92LX
September 29, 2003, 02:46 PM
dude sounds awesome i want to play.

bogie
September 29, 2003, 02:49 PM
If you're gonna be playing with shootin' at folks, make sure that ANYTHING that's in the area is non-lethal. What if you fall down? Drop the thing? Some doofus picks it up, sez, "hey, this looks cool - almost real!" and points it at you and yanks the trigger before you can scream at him that it _is_ real?

gun-fucious
September 29, 2003, 02:50 PM
here i am, after a gernade landed in my lap
while i was riding in a tank.

it actually came in through a 2 inch rubber bladed slot in the door

stuff happens!

rayra
September 29, 2003, 03:00 PM
What a HGUELY BAD IDEA to bring live / real firearms to an event / venue involving non-lethal firearms. Recipe for DISASTER.


And sodapop - duh. Lanyard.

El Tejon
September 29, 2003, 03:04 PM
Mountain lions? You're kidding, right?

A very bad idear to mix real and pretend, see, e.g. a hundred examples for THR and TFL.

If you are worried about pumas, I would try outsmarting them like Bugs Bunny (oh, three or four) or using magic pixie dust which works for bears, unicorns and mountain lions.:D

Edit to add: my only experience with mountain lions is in reality of their non-existence. I wear Pumas to boxing so I know how tricksy they can be.:scrutiny:

C.R.Sam
September 29, 2003, 03:06 PM
Never under any circumstances carry a casualty producing weapon or ammunition while working with any force on force scenario!...Jeff. I totally concurr.
Some folks can get "in the zone" during practice and are able to nearly instantly adapt to a change in scenario.

Sam

Quartus
September 29, 2003, 03:25 PM
Look at it this way: Do YOU want to play in the woods with pretend guns knowing that SOMEBODY out there is also carrying the real thing?


Not me!

Drjones
September 29, 2003, 03:26 PM
I cannot believe the insidious anti-gun mentality that is rampant in this thread.

"You'll accidentally shoot someone."

"What kind of threats do you really anticipate."

"You'll hurt someone."

Did I accidentally log onto DU???

Zahc, do whatever you feel necessary. Personally, I wouldn't venture anywhere near the forest or wilderness without a firearm, ESPECIALLY if spending the night.

Unless you are overpowered by the firearm's powers and it makes you start shooting people when you should be paintballing them. :rolleyes:

If you get so "into" the game that you forget its just a game and actually reach for your real weapon, IMO, you've got problems and shouldn't have been around firearms in the first place.

And the stories of training accidents among the military don't apply here.

We're talking apples and oranges; the military is doing real, combat-simulating exercises with their real weapons that can fire real bullets.

You are going to be playing a game, albeit a rather intense (and fun!) one with completely different weapons. Again, I say if you cannot separate the two in your mind and honestly fear drawing your actual weapon during a game you shouldn't be handling firearms in the first place.

I went paintballing this weekend and the thought of real firearms never even entered my mind, contrary to what the antis would have you believe.

Guess the tinfoil hat I was wearing shielded me from the guns magical brain-control. :neener:

MJRW
September 29, 2003, 03:39 PM
Remind me not to play paintball with DrJones who confuses self-policing with forced policing. Who also fails to recognize the difference between having to go to the grocery store possibly in a bad neighborhood with voluntarily playing a game. And who also ignores, and it appears to be only because of his tactical paintball experience, the lessons taught by those who run and have participated in simulations. And let us not forget doesn't understand that difference between not confusing pulling out your wallet to pay for the subway and aiming at "combatants" and firing non-lethal rounds in a combat simulation makes some of us wary about mixing the two.

Keith
September 29, 2003, 03:43 PM
He's in Ohio fer crissakes! What is he going to run into - an angry rabbit? And do you think some two-legged predator is going to hassle twenty or thirty strange looking dudes running around in the woods wearing camo?

Keith

Jeff White
September 29, 2003, 03:48 PM
Drjones,
Nope, you're at THR not DU. Regardless of what the Brady Bunch would have you believe, safety is not anti-gun. In fact an accident on a paintball field would give them ammo to go after shooters and paintballers with.

Comparisons between military training and paintball are not apples and oranges when it comes to an issue like mixing real weapons with paintball markers. If it became common for live weapons to be carried on the paintball field, sooner or later there would be an accident. It will happen.

Tell me, were you armed when you played paintball this past weekend? What was your criteria for recognizing a situation that would call for you to employ your firearm instead of your paintball marker? How would you know for certain that the threat was a real threat and not part of the scenario? Do you think you are fast enough to bring your real weapon to bear by the time you figured out that it was a real attack and not part of the game?

Jeff

Greg L
September 29, 2003, 03:57 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that this is in Ohio, that lovely state to the north of me that doesn't allow the peons to run around with a concealed weapon in the first place let alone while out in the woods chasing others with a different type of firearm. Your only legal option would be to have it in plain sight on your hip. I for one certainly wouldn't be all that enthusiastic about playing in that game.

Greg

Quartus
September 29, 2003, 03:58 PM
Cool down, Jones. You started off as a know-nothing know-it-all on TFL, but you learned fast. You've earned some respect. Don't go back where you started.

When Jeff speaks, it's good to listen. It's something called EXPERIENCE. Doesn't mean he's always right. But it DOES mean his words should be carefully considered.


He just might know something you don't.

bogie
September 29, 2003, 04:12 PM
Jones, it's common sense. People get zoned. Heavily psyched. That's why I'd prefer that none of the other players have nothing on 'em. INCLUDING small pocket knives, etc.

When I was a kid, there was a civil war battle reenactment held every year. The "soldiers" would camp out, the boy scouts would camp out, etc., and since boy scouts tend to be... well... rambunctious, a lot of the "soldiers" wouldn't get a lot of sleep before midnight, due to "enemy" infiltrators. Dang, but it was FUN droppin' a tent on top of 'em... But I digress...

Anywho, one of the "soldiers" captured several boy scouts, and as prisoners of war, they were lined up to be interrogated. As one of the "soldiers" was walking in front of 'em, he drew his cap & ball revolver, pointed it at 'em, and pulled the trigger. It had a black powder blank charge in it, and it blinded one of the scouts.

DO NOT have any weapon on a playing field.

Jesse H
September 29, 2003, 04:23 PM
It's like dry-firing in a room away from live ammo.

Common sense safety.

El Tejon
September 29, 2003, 04:26 PM
Jesse, excellent analogy.

Dr., injuries defeat the purpose of training.:D Plenty of examples of injuries and fatalities from activities such as this.

zahc
September 29, 2003, 04:47 PM
this is in Ohio, that lovely state to the north of me that doesn't allow the peons to run around with a concealed weapon

Not yet! maybe one day...
What about in other states?

Did I also mention that I have not reached the magical age of 21, and therefore do not need to protect myself? I said on the first page that I wouldn't do it, people missed that part and are still trying to convince ME not to. It's for discussion folks. Sigh.

But, it seems so far that most think that carrying while paintballing is a bad idea (I agree for now).

P.S.chasing others with a different type of firearm

markers are not firearms.

And I was serious about the mountain lion part. I'm not worried in the least though. 2 years ago someone few miles from my place had a puma chained to a tree in their front yard in sight of the road. And to this day about 10 miles away there is a black bear in a chainlink fence at someone's place.

noklue3
September 29, 2003, 04:52 PM
It does happen, even in Ohio:

Residents encounter mountain lion

By JANEL HARTMAN, T-L Staff Writer and SANDY FITZGERALD, T-L Copy Editor



MOUNTAIN lions are extinct in Ohio, but several St. Clairsville area residents encountered one during the weekend, including a man who shot the large animal which had attacked his dog and lunged at him.
According to a report from the Belmont County Sheriff's Office, at about 5:24 p.m. Sunday, Brian Conway, who had been working at a farm on Shepherdstown Road, St. Clairsville, advised that a mountain lion had attacked his dog and lunged at him. Conway reported to the sheriff's office that he had shot and killed the animal, which was left in the woods by the farm. The animal was believed to have been a pet, because it had been declawed.

The shooting came after a weekend in which several people, including two St. Clairsville teen-agers armed with only a camera, came face-to-face with the lion.

Brandon Coe, 16, and his brother, Brian, 17, had heard from their uncle that a mountain lion had been spotted in the area so they rode out on their all-terrain vehicles to see if they could find it and take a picture of it.

When they found the large creature, it was lying down in the grass. Brandon said he and his brother tossed a rock at it to try to get it to stand up and run away.

"I told my brother to stand up on the bike and take its picture," Brandon Coe said. When the flash on the camera went off, the lion stood up.

He said his ATV was coasting backward and the lion was coming at him, so he got off the vehicle.

Brandon said the lion was "standing there staring at me, and I got out my knife." He said the knife was only a small pocketknife that he takes into the woods with him.

After about three minutes - during which the mountain lion was only about 7 feet away - the animal ran away. Brandon said the mountain lion was hissing at him and his brother during the entire incident.

"I don't know what I would have done if it had jumped on me," he said. The boys' grandmother, Opal Donley, said the boys took pictures of the large cat so people would believe they saw it.

"They didn't figure anyone would believe them and that's why they took the pictures," Donley said. "Brandon was afraid to run. There were a number of kids there and my son wanted his wife to get his gun, but she was so scared that she couldn't move."

Donley explained that she and her husband at first thought the boys had seen a bobcat, but it was clear from the pictures that it was a mountain lion.

"We called the sheriff's office and they referred us to the game warden. We're still waiting for him to call us back. Brandon wanted me to call the newspaper so that nobody would get hurt."

Meanwhile, Conway said he first saw the mountain lion on Saturday as he and several other people were traveling to a nearby farm to bale hay. He said he saw the mountain lion in the weeds, and he and his co-workers stopped to look at the animal. Conway said his dog was scared by the large animal and jumped off the four-wheeler he was driving. He said chaos ensued, and his dog was in the mouth of the mountain lion.

"It had the dog in its mouth, and the front legs were hanging out one side of his mouth and the back legs were hanging out of the other side," Conway added. "His whole body was in its mouth. It rolled over on its back, and tried to tear the dog up. It started to run with the dog. It dropped the dog, and then jumped back into the woods."

Conway said he does not know why, but the mountain lion, which was 6 feet long and weighed about 90 pounds, released his dog. He said he went about 400 yards down a trail with his co-workers before they realized the mountain lion was following them.

"We went 400 yards into the trail to kind of evaluate what we saw," Conway said. "I went back down the trail, and it was there. It was following us. I slowly put the dog on the bike and took off."

Conway said he returned to the farm for work on Sunday. However, this time he brought along a shotgun and a pistol in case he again saw the mountain lion. He said although he was more prepared than the previous day, he was still nervous.

"Sunday, I went back out," Conway said. "I had an old single-shot 12 gauge. I had one shell. It was bird shell, and I thought, 'it's better than nothing.' We had to get the hay up before it rained. I left the dog in the camper.

"They told me to see if the lower fields were dry yet," Conway added. "I went over there and told my buddy to come with me. I knew it was there, but I didn't think it would bother us. I was close to the same area where the incident happened Saturday, and I took my gun and walked down there. I was coming back and I could see fresh paw prints. I was nervous. I was getting on my bike and he (friend) said 'here it comes,' and it was barreling."

Conway said the mountain lion jumped out of the woods and landed about an equal distance between himself and his friend. He said the animal then attacked him before he shot it. Conway said one shot did not kill it, and he then had to use his pistol.

"He jumped off the bank and landed between us," Conway said. "We were about 10 feet apart. I said, 'Don't move, I don't want to shoot.'

"I got off, and tried to shoo him away. He turned and came toward me. He kept coming slowly toward me like a house cat approaches a bird. I backed up, and he lunged right at me.

"When I shot, his front paws were off the ground, and his claws were six inches from my barrel," Conway added.

More than one shot was required, and after the incident, Conway called the Belmont County Sheriff's Office, and a deputy arrived at the scene. He said he is still shaken by the situation. Conway said the animal was beautiful, but he did not feel he had any other alternative.

"I couldn't sleep at all night last night," Conway said. "I gave it every opportunity to leave. I didn't want to shoot it. The deputy said it was at the tip of the barrel. I am not proud or happy for doing it. It was a beautiful creature. I had a split second to make that decision. It was hungry, and there was no fear of man at all.

"I was shaking yesterday, and I am shaking right now talking about it," Conway added. "It was like something out of a movie." END


Just happen last week.

Art

zahc
September 29, 2003, 04:57 PM
:uhoh:

Pat_Rogers
September 29, 2003, 05:13 PM
Jeff,
The facts are skewed a little.
A Marine from a Force Platoon shot and killed another Marine- a role player from the MEU- during a MILES exercise.
He was convicted of the crime- as well he should be.

He was negligent in removing live ammunition from his person- in this case frangibile- and deliverd an NSR into the chest of a 21 year old PFC.

The shooter got what he deserved, and the others in the chain of command took big hits.

This is the first incident of this type since the inception of the SOTG in 86. If it can happen to them, it will happen to paint ballers.

Those protesting the fact that firearms and ammunition don't mix remind me of the individual who had posted several "hero" pics of himself on TFL, facing uprange, with an AR and revolver, fingers on the triggers.

The sad fact is that some people shouldn't have guns. Or cars. Or children. Or oxygen.

Use common sense. Every time a negligent shooting occurs, we all suffer the consequences. If you cannot be aware enough to understand that firearms and force on force don't mix- anymore then firearms, cars, planes and so on don't mix with alchohol, maybe we need to more forcefully remind them of their responsibility to all of us.

Quartus
September 29, 2003, 05:25 PM
The sad fact is that some people shouldn't have guns. Or cars. Or children. Or oxygen.



Ohhh, that's not nice!

But can we start a list?

Kennedy, Schumer, Boxer, Feinstien.....



:D

rayra
September 29, 2003, 05:36 PM
wow zahc, "Did I also mention that I have not reached the magical age of 21, and therefore do not need to protect myself?" - what a load of ungood doublethink in that sentence. "need?" Maybe make that "and am thus legally prevented from purchasing a handgun or being in sole possession of one, for use in protecting myself'.
Either your phrasing was very poor, or you are conciously / subconciously echoing the gun-grabbers rhetoric about 'Need'.

auschip
September 29, 2003, 06:04 PM
wow zahc, "Did I also mention that I have not reached the magical age of 21, and therefore do not need to protect myself?" - what a load of ungood doublethink in that sentence. "need?" Maybe make that "and am thus legally prevented from purchasing a handgun or being in sole possession of one, for use in protecting myself'.
Either your phrasing was very poor, or you are conciously / subconciously echoing the gun-grabbers rhetoric about 'Need'.

I think it was sarcasm.

Penforhire
September 29, 2003, 06:21 PM
Carrying while playing paintball would be a horribly bad idea. I'll give you one big reason.

There is a high probablility someone will sneak up on you. There is a slight possibility the sneak will "make" your real gun (maybe your concealent got tattered or rides up in the woods) but would assume it was a great-looking paintball marker. They might be curious about it and be tempted to try a grab-and-shoot.

Believe me, not much is more satisfying in paintball than doing in the opposition with their own munitions or weapons. Don't say it will never happen. I've done it and had it done to me. I have less of a personal issue with knives, because everyone knows they are not part of the game.

But as a past field owner I would also exclude knives because emotions run extremely high and physical confrontation is possible (non-lethal partly BECAUSE of excluding real weapons).

Joe Demko
September 29, 2003, 06:29 PM
You don't need a gun. You need a lightning rod. You are far more likely to be struck by lightning than to be be mauled by a bear or puma in Ohio. Saints preserve us, what a ridiculous question to even be arguing over.

zahc
September 29, 2003, 06:56 PM
I think it was sarcasm

yes. I should have put an extreme sarcasm warning up.

Drjones
September 29, 2003, 06:58 PM
Ok.

I want to apologise if I came off as too harsh/condescending/offensive above, especially to those older and more experienced than I.

That said, I can clearly see why it is a bad idea for a soldier to carry live ammo during a military training exercise where everyone else is carrying blanks. That's obvious.

I don't see the big deal if someone is carrying during a paintball game.

To answer a question that was posed: "How would I know a threat was that and not part of the game and would I be able to get my gun fast enough."

Well, for one, if they someone approached me who looked out of place, wasn't carrying a paintball gun or whom I just don't know (assuming you at least recognize everyone who is playing), that would be a start.

Would I be fast enough?

Sure. Lots faster than running home or to the car and getting my gun. Again, this seems to me like anti logic. Not a flame, just my view.

Drjones
September 29, 2003, 07:01 PM
But as a past field owner I would also exclude knives because emotions run extremely high and physical confrontation is possible (non-lethal partly BECAUSE of excluding real weapons).

I rest my case.

So let's say someone on the other team gets really worked up and attacks me. Let's even say he's way bigger and stronger.

Say he even gets one of his buddies backing him up, so its two-on-one.

Just because its during a paintball game, I shouldn't be able to carry the most effective means of self-defense? I should just take the beating?

I'm still not convinced I didn't stumble onto a mirror of DU.... :scrutiny:

Jesse H
September 29, 2003, 07:18 PM
Ok Doc, I'll bite.

Let's say somebody on the opposing team, and a few of his buddies were upset and wanted a piece of you. Would it not be safe to assume that if there's an opposing team, you'd also have teammates of your own to aid you in de-escalating the situation. If nothing else, couldn't one run from the confrontation? Besides, you still have a paintball gun

Carrying concealed during paintball would be a major PITA. I know that the few times I've played, I'm rolling around in the dirt and grass. Crawling on my hands and knees, etc. The only practical means of carry wouldn't be concealed.

Even then, I don't think it'd be safe to have a real pistol during a paintball match...and I'm one of those people that always carry wherever legal.

zahc
September 29, 2003, 07:39 PM
Maybe we can agree that all (even Ohioans) should be able to LEGALLY carry, on a state and federal government level. Whether to or not should be up to the people or the sanctioning body.

?

OEF_VET
September 29, 2003, 07:58 PM
I've got an anctecdote very much like the one Jeff tells about, except this one happened to me personally, and my career in the military was nearly destroyed over it.

My LT was tasked to be the OIC of a range where the battalion would practice convoy operations. My section chief was tasked as the NCOIC and I was tasked as both the ammo NCO and road guard at the end of the range.

The plan was for each unit to go thru a 'dry-fire' itiration, a blank-fire itiration, then a live-fire itiration. The plan started out that all units would do dry-fire before anyone did blank-fire, and the same for moving on to live-fire.

As ammo NCO, I signed for blanks and live ammo. As I was setting up the ammo point, I put all the live ammo, in unopened cans, well enough away from the blanks so that they could in no way become confused with each other. The soldiers on my detail, under my direct guidance, loaded magazines with blanks and stacked them neatly on a pallet. The live ammo was still in its' cans, sealed, and away from the blanks.

As the first unit prepared for its' dry-fire itiration, I was sent to do road guard detail, along with the two soldiers on my detail. This is when the feces hit the fan. After I left, the battalion Commander decided that each unit would do all three runs before the next unit started.

First unit does a dry fire with no problems. Then they go over and get their own ammo. I wasn't there, so they just opened the live cans and filled mags with it. First blank-fire run, one of the soldiers (a Sergeant no less) doesn't pay attention, puts a mag full of live ammo into his M-4 and fires. He blew the BFA right off his weapon, luckily no one was hurt.

The fall out was bad. My LT and section chief were both given formal letters of reprimand. I barely escaped one myself because i had taken proper precautions, they were just ignored after I was ordered away from the ammo point. Their were several problems that day. One, not enough people were put on the detail. Two, the commander came around changing things after they were already put into operation. Third, the soldiers were issued live ammo and blanks at the same time. Four, the soldier didn't pay close enough attention to the mag he put into his weapon.

Mixing live weapons and non-live wapons are a mistake. Murphy will do something to make you look like an idiot in the long run. Best thing to do is keep the different types of ammo and weapons apart.

Frank

4v50 Gary
September 29, 2003, 08:18 PM
No

Quartus
September 29, 2003, 08:57 PM
Two, the commander came around changing things after they were already put into operation.

Yeah, they have a habit of screwing things up, don't they?

Jeff White
September 29, 2003, 09:19 PM
Drjones,

You answered my question about IDing a threat with this;

Well, for one, if they someone approached me who looked out of place, wasn't carrying a paintball gun or whom I just don't know (assuming you at least recognize everyone who is playing), that would be a start.

So if a hiker wandered into the playing area you'd draw down on him? Lets face it anyone without protective equipment on the paintball field is going to look out of place. If this is your cue to draw, you'd not have your CCW permit very long in most jurisdictions. What has the hiker done at this point to warrant your anticipated use of deadly force?

Basic safety is not anti-gun or anti self defense. Think for just a minute about where you are. You are on a commercial paintball field. It is a controlled environment. I don't know of any games that are conducted in public areas where people can just wander through the playing field. I'm not aware of any instances where criminals have targeted paintball fields for robberies. Face it, you're in a controlled environment and the game has provided you with a fairly effective less lethal (to an assailant without protective equipment) weapon to start with.

Just because its during a paintball game, I shouldn't be able to carry the most effective means of self-defense? I should just take the beating?

It's a sporting event. There are people present from both teams who will break this up. When's the last time you heard of a hockey player being beaten to death by a member of the opposing team? Or a baseball or football player?

Does the risk of an accident outweigh the remote possibility that you may need a firearm to defend yourself? I think it does. If you don't then that's your decision. I hope that your insistance that your right to carry a firearm in an inappropriate environment trumps all rules of safety and common sense doesn't end in tragedy. Remember that this kind of tragedy will hurt both RKBA and the sport of paintball, which is already targeted as another evil part of the gun culture.

Pat, thanks for providing the details of the tragedy that Force had last year.

Jeff

Kharn
September 29, 2003, 09:40 PM
I play paintball on occasion, and if I knew someone on the field had a weapon other than his/her paintball gun, I'd be outta there so fast I might forget to throw all my gear in the truck.

No way, no how, no matter what would I be on the paintball field with someone with a real gun. Too many emotions, too much adrenaline and too little sleep during a 36 hour game to throw a deadly weapon into the mix.

Kharn

Stinger
September 29, 2003, 10:04 PM
Fellow THR'ers:

Generally I amazed by your awesome cache of knowledge. But tonight, I am disgusted. I bet I could research thousands of posts from posters in this thread talking about how they should be able to carry their weapon wherever they want; the government should not be able to dictate weapons; etc.

And here tonight, you are telling someone not to carry a gun because they might shoot someone! How about you don't take your gun to the grocery store, a little old lady might take the last avacado and you might shoot her for robbery. Don't drive with it in your car, someone might cut you off and you could go on a shooting spree. Etc., etc., etc.

Drjones, you are the only one in this thread with a modicum of sense. I honestly keep expecting the next poster to say, "But it's for the kids."

You are either qualified to carry a handgun, or you are not. You are either safe with a handgun, or you are not. If you are not, then don't carry.

Just because you carry a weapon doesn't turn you into Rambo or the son of Sam. If you think that it does, then you NEVER need to carry a weapon.

I'll carry a weapon where I want, when and want, and with whomever I want (so long as it's legal). You will NOT disarm me. If you chose to disarm yourself, then so be it. But you are as much of a blissninny as Feinstein or Kennedy.

Sorry for the rant, but :barf:

Stinger

Pat_Rogers
September 29, 2003, 10:29 PM
Before entering a Simunitions exercise at Gunsite, all involved- Instructors, students and role players- are advised to divest themselves of all weapons, ammunition, and anything that can be used as a weapon- pens, keys, tools etc.
They are then frisked, loaded in a Ranch vehicle, and transported to a quarentined area.
They are wanded, and issued protective gear.

The instructors load the Sims mags, load the weapons, and issue them to the students prior to the exercise.

These procedures make perfect sense. The introduction of a firearm or other weapon only raises the potential for a tragedy.
There is no need for a loaded firearm within the exercise area.
The Instructors control the area and the scenario.
There are no unnecessary injuries.

Jeff White is stating the facts of life with extreme clarity.
There is absolutely no need for a loaded firearm when doing Force on Force.
None.

If you can't abide by this, don't participate.

SodaPop
September 29, 2003, 10:34 PM
Thus says the Lord..........;)

El Tejon
September 30, 2003, 12:16 AM
I liked the part where they frisked me.:D

Drjones
September 30, 2003, 02:56 AM
Stinger; thank you. :)

Mr. White; I still disagree. You are a moderator and I believe older and likely more experienced than myself, so I submit the following comments humbly, but please try to see things from my point of view.

None of my comments are intended to offend, nor do I believe you to be an anti of any sorts.

That said....


I'm not aware of any instances where criminals have targeted paintball fields for robberies. Face it, you're in a controlled environment and the game has provided you with a fairly effective less lethal (to an assailant without protective equipment) weapon to start with.

So then we should make paintballing areas "gun free zones" as people want to do with schools?

And it occurred to me that yes, a paintball gun is a decent weapon capable of a fair amount of harm, but its still just a paintball gun, less than lethal, and thus it is the last thing I would want if my life were in danger.

What I see when I read this statement of yours, and again this is not intended as a flame to you, but what pops into my head when I read this is, "a woman should carry her keys poking out from her fingers so that she can scratch, but not kill, her attacker." Or, "pepper spray is a fairly effective less lethal defensive tool and women should carry it instead of firearms, which are far more dangerous."

Can you see my side, Mr. White?


It's a sporting event. There are people present from both teams who will break this up. When's the last time you heard of a hockey player being beaten to death by a member of the opposing team? Or a baseball or football player?

I dunno. I've also never been attacked in my home, but that doesnt' mean that it could not and will not happen.

Haven't YOU heard the stories of enraged parents attacking umpires and referees? Sure, its an extreme and fortunately rare example, but it happens.

Mr. White, I don't know about you, but I can't see into the future. I've been led to believe that most people here cannot and that is why they carry guns very often or all of the time, for if we knew if and when we were going to be attacked, we simply wouldn't show up.

Everyone here saying "well its never happened before" or "what are the chances..." sound JUST like a bunch of antis to me.

Heck, about a month ago, some wacko attacked and injured and killed (IIRC) several people at a supermarket with a sword. When's the last time you heard of THAT happening?

Does the risk of an accident outweigh the remote possibility that you may need a firearm to defend yourself? I think it does. If you don't then that's your decision. I hope that your insistance that your right to carry a firearm in an inappropriate environment trumps all rules of safety and common sense doesn't end in tragedy. Remember that this kind of tragedy will hurt both RKBA and the sport of paintball, which is already targeted as another evil part of the gun culture.

Face it; the risk that most here who carry will be attacked is quite slim to none.

Yet they still carry. I'll go out on a limb to say that for most everyone here, the risk of an accident outweighs their chance of an accident with their firearm. Yet they still carry.

I'm sorry, but the same logic that says "don't carry while paintballing" to me is the same logic that says "dont' carry at church" and "keep our schools and streets gun-free."

I just don't get it guys...

And since when did ANYPLACE become an "inappropriate environment" for firearms?

timbo
September 30, 2003, 03:15 AM
Well, I've read the whole thread so far and realize it wasn't started with a question, but I'm adding my commentary anyway. Being a paintballer myself I would be appalled if I found a person with a weapon on the field. This isn't just because I'm from California either. I'd have to proceed to inform everyone that I could find that the person was carrying and either get them thrown out or just walk out myself.

Besides, what starts the most heated arguments on a paintball field?

Wiping (cheating by wiping a paintball hit off of yourself)

Every paintball field I've been to will throw out the person who cheats. I don't care if you have a permit to carry otherwise and I don't care that it is easy to differentiate most paintball markers from actual firearms, I think that the danger you pose to those around you outweighs what I feel is the negligible safety threat you feel in such an environment. If anyone feels unsafe playing a wargame scenario then you really need to find something else to do.

Do us all a favor, when you're on the field, leave your weapons in the car.

Drjones
September 30, 2003, 03:38 AM
So apart from the fact that you personally feel threatened by someone with a weapon, do you have any actual reasons why someone shouldn't carry while paintballing?

Welcome to THR, BTW... :)

Devonai
September 30, 2003, 05:28 AM
I'm going to enter the fray here, and cautiously back up Dr. Jones. Here's the way I look at it.

When I first got my CCW six years ago, only my best friends knew I carried. Even some of my best friends, whom I trusted deeply, requested that I not carry while around them. It was out of mutual respect that I agreed, although I suspect some on THR might have said, "get new friends." Well, when I say "best friends" I don't use the term lightly. These are lifelong friends and I'm not going to throw the relationship away over a difference of opinion such as this.

Of those who doubted me initially, only two of them still request that I not carry while in their presence. Time and experience have not swayed them because they have a fundamentally different philosophy on self-defense than I. Specifically, they don't believe that life is dangerous enough under any conditions other than TEOTWAWKI/SHTF/TIA* to warrant the carry of a firearm. They do not go as far as to say that the presence of a firearm may serve to exacerbate a situation, but they simply don't see the point of one otherwise.

Other friends of mine didn't object, but admitted to me later that they were never comfortable with me carrying a concealed firearm, until sufficient time had passed that proved I could be trusted. Think about the people you trust on a daily basis, and then imagine the same people carrying a concealed weapon. Do you still trust all of them? If not, why?

If you don't trust them, I'll bet dollars to donuts it's because you don't believe they have enough self control to make the correct legal and tactical decisions. Perhaps you think that if they got mad enough, they'll turn green, shout "HULK SHOOT," and improperly use their firearm. This may be true of some people you know, even those with CCW permits.

Now, here's the real crux of my point: Do you trust yourself with a firearm? Nevermind what other people think of you, nevermind what kinds of apoplectic fits your buddies might have to find out that you're carrying at the paintball field, what about YOU? Can you trust yourself to always make the correct legal and tactical choices with a firearm? If not, what the heck are you doing with a CCW?

Therefore, I conclude that if you do trust yourself, why not carry at the paintball field? Use a concealment holster with good retention features (such as the Piecekeeper rig) and keep the whole darn issue to yourself.


*The Inevitable Anarchy

Joe Demko
September 30, 2003, 08:57 AM
...and don't forget to bring plenty of ammunition, paintball fields are dangerous places. :rolleyes:

For some, the gun appears to take on a talismanic function. They are not safe without it. Hence, they will have it regardless of etiquette, legalities, or common sense. Jeff has the right of this. Any argument to the contrary is just rationalizing why you can't be without your woobie.

MJRW
September 30, 2003, 12:27 PM
Stinger, you are making a huge comparision mistake:

I bet I could research thousands of posts from posters in this thread talking about how they should be able to carry their weapon wherever they want; the government should not be able to dictate weapons; etc. And here tonight, you are telling someone not to carry a gun because they might shoot someone!

NO ONE is advocating that the government regulate paintball carry. Many are advocating self-policing for a voluntary event. People are telling someone not to carry not because they might shoot someone. That can happen any time. But because the risk of accident increases to an unacceptable measure. The evidence that the accident probability increases is shown in similar events by professionals who almost all (especially those here with experience) willingly disarm. Given that unacceptable risk, it is being argued that the person, if they do not feel safe there, may opt not to participate in the game. Living one's every day life doesn't compare. With paintball, almost all things are known. Location, participants, time, surroundings. In addition to this, it is completely voluntary. This differs from every day life because you may not know where you are going, nor have much choice, nor pick the time, nor the surroundings. And you do not have the choice to not participate without GREAT impact upon your life. You aren't even comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing apples to orangutans.

gun-fucious
September 30, 2003, 12:32 PM
what is the motivation of any attacker on a Paintball field?

if its a heated wiping conflict, thats what the refs are for.

if an animal larger than a squirrel or a rabbit
attacks you, light 'em up with a 100 round burst
and call in reinforcements.

theres prolly a LAWS in range ;)

If mall ninja death squads decide that the paintball field
is worth knocking off for chewing gum money,
the field store is the main cash repostitory.
I would suspect they might have a 12 gauge behind the counter.

If while on night patrol you wander into Bubba and the Deliverence boys,
and they get the drop on you...
Squeeeeeel!
They might be role players.

The last Scenario i played, there was a surprise Role player
A 20 foot spider that charged out from a fort
Shooting the dood in the bugsuit, with a glock would be poor form.

We also field a few ghillie suited rangers
You never know they are there until they wack you.
How do you know theres a safe backstop when theres 300 doods in the woods?

The only possible threat i would imagine you might run into would be feral dogs
and i would bet a 68 caliber marbilizer stings them too.

well, that and bigfoot
but he's on my team

:p

Quartus
September 30, 2003, 05:11 PM
I WANNA I WANNA I WANNA!



There - I've given three good reasons for carrying while paintballing. I hope that settles the matter.



:rolleyes:

Jeff White
September 30, 2003, 05:11 PM
Drjones,
First off, please call me Jeff...Mr. White was my father. Yes I was recently asked to moderate here, but that doesn't make my opinion any more valid then any other members. As for being older..I'm 47. I do have a lot of experience with force on force training. I have only played paintball a couple times. I recently retired from a 29 year career in the Army a good part of it spent as an active duty trainer for IL ARNG Infantry and Artillery units. Simultaniously I have spent 18 years as a part time patrolman with my local PD. I have been heavily involved in force on force training for both organizations. Basically earned my living, planning and conducting this type of training.

You asked;
So then we should make paintballing areas "gun free zones" as people want to do with schools?

And I must answer YES. It is simply too dangerous to have any live weapons or ammunition where people are pointing and firing simulated weapons and ammunition at each other. Quite frankly the odds of a negligent discharge causing a tragedy are so much greater then the odds of someone actually needing a live weapon to defend himself with while participating in paintball or any other simulation that involves breaking any of the four rules in order to train, that I'm amazed we are even having this discussion. Tragedies have happened to the most highly trained shooters in our military and police community while participating in these events. No true professional I have ever met has ever had any objection to being disarmed while participating. In fact most would never return to train at any place that wasn't that safety consious. It's not a matter of trust. It's a safety issue. If you insist that you must remain armed to participate, you won't be permitted to in most places. It's not an infringement on your rights, but a guarantee of everyone's safety.

If you insist on remaining armed while participating in any force on force activity, do count on being allowed to participate if I am involved in it. I think that every responsible trainer out there will enforce the same policy. Pat has described Gunsite's safety policy for us. There are times where one must be unarmed. Not many, but force on force is one of them.

Jeff

sw442642
September 30, 2003, 05:58 PM
Jeff - you are so on the money. I've done quite a bit of FOF with Simunitions, paintball and Airsoft. Also, some hand to hand. We always search each other to avoid that one slip where someone forgets and goes for a real weapon.

I've heard of FOF excercises so realistic (like the NTI) where folks have flashbacked to other real fits and had serious emotional difficulties. People have thrown up from the stress. In that scenario, you may not be rationale and having a live weapon is a bad thing.

Greg L
September 30, 2003, 06:09 PM
I've heard of FOF excercises so realistic (like the NTI) where folks have flashbacked to other real fits and had serious emotional difficulties. People have thrown up from the stress. In that scenario, you may not be rationale and having a live weapon is a bad thing.

I remember one day in the Army doing MILES training. We had just overran a position and I was guarding a couple of the prisoners that we had just taken. One of them pulled a simulated knife from his boot (looking back it was quick thinking on his part :D ) and simulated stabbing at me with his invisible knife. The only problem was that the butt stroke that I had aimed at his head in response wasn't simulated. Luckily I realized what I was doing right before I hit him and managed to stop it in time. We both had to go sit down for a little while to collect ourselves.

It isn't worth it to have a live weapon (even concealed and burried deep) out in a secure FOF scenario. Murphy will come for a visit eventually.

Greg

Jesse H
September 30, 2003, 08:15 PM
Doc says,

And since when did ANYPLACE become an "inappropriate environment" for firearms?

Whenever you're participating in a game where gun handling rules are purposely broken.

C.R.Sam
October 1, 2003, 04:29 AM
Football players can't carry baseball bats...
For good reason.

Armed hocky players would be inviting tragedy.

Playing war games wherein simulated weapons are used agressively is far more REAL weapons sensitive than the two above examples.

Many of us here have done it for real. And I don't think a single one would advocate carrying a real weapon of ANY type during a force on force training session.

In the classroom, ( often ) if one instructor is going to demonstrate with a simulated weapon, another instructor will first check the demonstrter to make sure he is safe.

This is not advocating government gun control. It is advocating common sense and promoting longevity.

Sam

OEF_VET
October 1, 2003, 08:30 AM
Wow, that was a long post for Sam.

As long as it was, the meat and potatoes was still said in one sentence:
This is not advocating government gun control. It is advocating common sense and promoting longevity.
Well said Sam.

Frank

Art Eatman
October 1, 2003, 09:31 AM
This has got to be the dangdest mess of a thread I've run across in a long, long time.

I've been "messin'" with real live guns for around 60 years. I've seen a lot of dead bodies, mostly four-legged, but I can tell you that blood smells like blood--Bambi or people. (If a guy's innards are spilled out in his lap, a bag of ice will make them go "Schloop!" right back where they belong.)

I've "toted" a handgun long before anybody in Texas ever heqrd of CHL, as have quite a few of my friends and family. But, the toting was based on circumstances and perceived need. Still is. I've found that the farther from "downtown" or from a major highway that you get, the less likely any need for self defense.

I'm sorry, folks, but it strikes me as somewhere near paranoid to think there could be a real need for self-defense at something like an organized paintball event. Whence cometh the danger? From whom? Why? It just does not compute. Not to me, anyway. I really doubt the pagan hordes are gonna come riding their yaks over the mountain to attack...(Lordy, I'd love to see THAT!)

And just how many turned-loose pet mountain lions do you think would be running around the joint, anyhow? Hanging around some 30 or more people who are sneaking through the woods? Duh? If you somehow did see an overgrown kitty-cat, yell as loud as you can, shoot him with your paintball gun, and the odds are you won't even get a glimpse of that "brown eye winking back at you". :D

I've long said that city folks oughta stay in town where they know what they're doing (I guess). :D Haven't ever really run across anything that's made me change my mind...

Shakes head. Wanders back to cave, grumbling...

(My usual caveat applies: "Iffen the shoe don't fit, don't wear that sucker.")

Art

erikm
October 1, 2003, 09:33 AM
Well, this is a bit of a theoretical exercise for me, but these are my thoughts on carrying while paintballing.
1) I can see good reasons for carrying while paintballing. Not only mountain lions but other critters as well. Snakes come to mind.
2) I can also see very good reasons for not mixing real and paintball weapons.
3) Check with the organisers. If they say no, offer the idea in item 4. If they still say no, don't carry. Ask if the refs are carrying if you're worried about critters (see 1).
4) If you do carry, carry in an even more secure manner than usual. What should satisfy most people would be cased, unloaded, with an attached lock. The case would be mounted on your belt or in a backpack. For even more security, the case could have the refs attach a seal to the case in such a way that the case can't be opened without breaking the seal. That way anyone seeing the intact seal can be sure the weapon is still securely stored inside.
5) Anyone drawing a live weapon for any reason must stop the game first. Loudly calling 'Game stop! Snake warning!' several times could be one way to do it.
6) Everyone should be briefed on live weapons beforehand. Safety first.

Cheers,
ErikM :evil:

Joe Demko
October 1, 2003, 10:07 AM
Snakes are pretty fragile creatures. If you see it first, no need to kill it. If you are bitten, kill it with a stick or your paintball gun. I grew up in the boonies w/o ever being attacked by a cougar, wolf, or bear. I never got bit by a snake. I never got sodomized by toothless, inbred hoopies. Somehow, in fact, I managed to avoid all these hazards w/o strapping on iron every time I stepped out the door. Perhaps I was just lucky, though. We didn't have paintball fields in those days (we threw rocks at each other) and I'm glad we didn't. They sound like very dangerous places.

zahc
October 1, 2003, 10:19 AM
Yeah it would be a tough snake indeed to survive paintballs.

Art Eatman
October 1, 2003, 10:33 AM
Golgo-13, did you find that rock fights helped you with softball/baseball? :D I did...

Art

Joe Demko
October 1, 2003, 11:06 AM
Art,
Absolutely. One of the main things wrong with this country is that kids don't have good, old-fashioned rock fights any more. No video game, paintball, or airsoft can give the visceral satisfaction that clobbering another kid with a well-thrown goonie has to offer. Not only that, being on the receiving end taught the manly, stoical virtues that served this nation so well in wartime.

C.R.Sam
October 1, 2003, 11:22 AM
We were so poor...
We didn't have rocks.
So we threw green dates
And used trash can lids for shields.
Ouch.:)

I've been on several exercises where we had venemous snakes on the course. Couple times cobras even.

Never knew anybody to shoot one.

Sam

Denny Hansen
October 1, 2003, 12:24 PM
Nothing short of lunacy to bring a loaded firearm to a force-on-force exercise. If you feel so threatened by other participants in the game of paintball, don't go.

Denny

hso
October 1, 2003, 02:19 PM
Ohh, let the boy alone. Remember natural selection deferred is natural selection denied.:D

Quartus
October 1, 2003, 04:07 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that he might select someone else!

RustyHammer
October 1, 2003, 04:47 PM
NO!

Keith
October 1, 2003, 04:48 PM
We were so poor... We didn't have rocks. So we threw green dates

(Assuming best Monty Python Dad's voice): You had green dates? You lucky rich B@$t@rd! We had to throw rat droppings, and we considered ourselves lucky to have them! And when we were done Mom would pick them up to use in her Plum Duff - not that she had any plums, or duff for that matter... No, it was whipped cat vomit mixed with mud and dotted wth rat turds...
And afterwards we'd sing "God Bless The Queen" and then Dad would beat us to sleep in our bed - not a real bed of course, it was a pile of dead dogs...

But we were HAPPY, dammit!

Keith

CR_OPSO
October 1, 2003, 04:49 PM
Posted by Jesse H:
Doc says,

And since when did ANYPLACE become an "inappropriate environment" for firearms?

Whenever you're participating in a game where gun handling rules are purposely broken.

Good point IMO.
CR

Art Eatman
October 1, 2003, 05:20 PM
Sam, y'all ever have "wars" with Roman candles and garbage-can lids? :) I guess that would be more like "burn-guns" than paint-guns.

:D, Art

SodaPop
October 1, 2003, 05:30 PM
Golgo-13, did you find that rock fights helped you with softball/baseball?


I didn't know we had THR members that grew up before the "Bronze Age"......

Joe Demko
October 1, 2003, 07:15 PM
Sam, y'all ever have "wars" with Roman candles and garbage-can lids? I guess that would be more like "burn-guns" than paint-guns.

Ah mammaries er I mean memories! Phun with phireworks! When finances (and the blackmarket) permitted we did similar things. If roman candles were not to be had, it was great fun to take sharp stick (sharp sticks were among our chief childhood toys) and poke a hole in a green apple. Fill that hole with a firecracker -et voila- you have a grenade of sorts. Spent many happy hours winging those babies at each other.
No 'works? No problem. Also enormously fun to leave the apple stuck on the pointy stick, and then use the stick kind of like an atlatl to launch the apple. You needed a trashcan lid or other sheild in an apple n' stick fight. Them bad boys flew so fast they hummed.
I feel sorry for these kids today with their lazer tag and airsoft and paintball. They don't know what real fun is.

Art Eatman
October 1, 2003, 09:53 PM
And don't forget our "Bronze Age" "rubber guns", using O-rings cut from innertubes as ammo. One variant was to cut a rifle silhouette from a piece of 1x4 and saw-tooth the upper edge. Tack a piece of string at the "muzzle" end and lay it along the barrel. Load up with several pieces of innertube and Voila! A machine gun!

And paint-ballers ain't got a thing going, compared to the sneakiness of a bunch of kids. :D We had more hidey-hole ambush spots around our neighborhood than Carter's got Little Liver Pills!

:D, Art

mdsteele
October 1, 2003, 10:03 PM
I didn't read this whole thread.......................................................................
Just my 2 cents worth.

When I play paintball, I carry.
I play in the woods on a private field. No one knows I carry, I just do.

A NAA mini 22. is better than a 45. left at home.
\
The guns I own don't go off unless the trigger is pulled.

Nuff' said.

Dr.Rob
October 2, 2003, 02:27 AM
No BS story I heard from a Game warden SW of Denver on the northside of rampart range road a number of years back.

Me and dad.. camoflauged from head to toe, toting shotguns and sidearms and preparing to disembark on a turkey hunt. Game warden rolls up, not seeing our shotties at first, asks us politely if we are paintballers. We say no, planned on doing some turkey hunting up here. Game warden asks us if we see any paintballers to kindly.. avoid them and or inform them this section of forest is OFF LIMITS to paintballers.

Scratching my head I said hmmmm.. why is that?

Apparently, the previous weekend a turket hunter was stalking through the bushes in tall ferns at the bases of large roosting trees hoping to find a good set up for the following day. Suddenly, six FEET away a hyped up, masked guy in camoflauge jumps out screaming like a banshee and lights up our turkey hunter with a full auto paintball gun. Hunter is startled and as he sits down hard (guess he thought he was shot for real?) Lets off a 3 inch #2 12 ga. Turkey load JUST ABOVE Mr. Paintballers' hat.

Aside from the hunter needing to wash his shirt, and the paintballer needing to wash his drawers thank god noone got hurt. The paintballer was arrested for harrassing a lawful hunter.

Soon after a "designated" paintball park opened in the area.. not sure if this was cause an effect but you can draw your own conclusions.

Real guns don't mix with toy guns.

And this advice is coming from a guy that regularly engaged in BB gunfights, bottle rocket wars and other youthful shenanigans.

sw442642
October 2, 2003, 04:30 PM
So if you were in the woods. not paintballing and some looney thought you were and opened up with a fully auto paintball gun, would you light him up? Without protective gear, the paintball is a real risk to you.

El Tejon
October 2, 2003, 04:56 PM
Ummm, don't hunt critters, but don't turkey hunters do their thang very, very early in the morning?:confused:

What's a paintballer do up early, Dr. Rob?

MJRW
October 2, 2003, 05:54 PM
Wow, mdsteele, I'm so glad you are hear to summarize so easily a heavily debated topic without ever addressing any of the points. Where were you earlier? We could have saved two pages of bandwidth.

Edward429451
October 2, 2003, 07:17 PM
I remember seeing this thread, skipped over it without reading it cause I thought it'd be a boring thread.:D

This was a good thread and excellant points were made on both sides of the fence. Technically speaking, DrJ and his camp is correct, However...

Jeff's camp is correct also. Murphy lives and rears his ugly had at the most inoppurtune moments. I don't profess these guys experiance but must agree with them overall. I wouldn't carry a real pistol on a paintgun field, deep cover or not. The mind boggles at times, fact of life. We've all heard about the copchick who tasered a perp with her Glock.

Standing up for your rights is admirable and correct but to not profess your responsibilities in the same breath is incorrect and would make us just as bad as the cops and such when they only go by the book and do not think outside the box by applying common sense. We want to be above that, don't we?

I'm not into paintgun sports but I imagine it can get pretty well heated and adreneline flows freely I'm sure which would be an open door to Mr Murphy.
Besides, If I (you) insisted on being able to carry a real backup on the field, wouldn't it also be correct to extend that right to the entire field of paintballers, hmm? Would you really want to play paintball when everyone was armed with real weapons DrJ?

This is also the reason an armed million man march wouldn't work. Its impossible to keep so many people at once from having a Murphy moment.

auschip
October 2, 2003, 07:22 PM
So if you were in the woods. not paintballing and some looney thought you were and opened up with a fully auto paintball gun, would you light him up? Without protective gear, the paintball is a real risk to you.



Would I kill someone for giving me a few bruises? Nope. A paintball is not a serious risk unless shot into your eye, and I know a few guys who took one in the eye and didn't have any lasting effects.

Penforhire
October 2, 2003, 08:55 PM
Well, the issue of the hazards of a paintball attack are a TOTALLY different subject because we'll get the same thread length on just that (we have before).

I know someone who was shot by a .22 LR round and basically picked it out of his arm like a splinter. Does that mean .22's are not lethal (assault with a deadly weapon)? Your friend who was shot by a paintball in the eye was VERY lucky. So was my friend.

The valid counter-point I read here is should we restrict the right to carry during certain activities? Because the pro-carry team is right, if they were safe to carry in the general public, why shouldn't they be safe to carry during a paintball game (I gave my own opinion that it isn't as safe as general carry). We shouldn't get into the "need" to carry because most of us agree on the RKBA issue, don't ever suggest you should have a need, only a right.

Devonai
October 2, 2003, 11:47 PM
I'd like to reiterate my salient point:

If you trust yourself to do make the right legal/tactical decision on the street, why wouldn't you trust yourself to carry during a paintball game?

Use a good concealment and retention holster, and don't tell anybody about it.

C.R.Sam
October 2, 2003, 11:54 PM
Art
Yep to both posts.
Sam

Drjones
October 3, 2003, 02:48 AM
Thrilled to finally see some sense injected into this thread by the last few posters....

Matt G
October 3, 2003, 03:46 AM
Every year or two, someone else dies while participating in a useful force on force training session. Happened in Arlington a coupla years ago. The idjit shooter is suing A.P.D. to try to get his job back after popping his buddy with a duty round to the head instead of a Simunition round. Seems he went to lunch and loaded up, but forgot to completely unload again upon returning from lunch.

Force On Force is a fantastic tool. Consider how much more you learn at a practical pistol match where you move and shoot than you do just standing and shooting at paper. Now add the component of having your targets move and try to tag you back. There's that much more to learn about tactics and how you'll react.

I think that getting your brain in the right mindset is very important. That would mean putting up the deadly weapons, and using your tools to shoot back.

But if we kill each other while practicing, we'll lose this valuable tool.


Dr. Jones-- you like to carry when out in the woods. Well guess what? I carry ALL THE TIME. The last time that I was in public and did not have a firearm on my person, I was at the Y, swimming. And honestly, it bugged heck out of me. But I managed to park very closeby, and could have armed myself within 15 to 30 seconds.

My point is just this: I am not one of these fair weather carriers. I am a father and a husband and a man of my community, and will not let those who cannot defend themselves go undefended in my presence. That said, when I am training, I train for real. It is VERY hard for me to point a paintball gun at another person to shoot them. I have to get myself into a mindset of training. Sure, paintball can be fun, but it's training, for many of us.

If you're breaking rules that should be ingrained into your psyche NOT to shoot at a person who is not threatening iminent bodily harm to you or a loved one, there had better be some damned good ground rules that you follow. First: it's absolutely safe. 2nd: There's no possibilty for things to go wrong. 3rd: check and recheck. If you're going to break your safety rules by pointing a gun-- ANY GUN-- at a person, make sure there's not a gun on scene that can kill them.

In the long run, you're way ahead-- it's far safer to put in good practice unarmed, then to never practice and remain armed all the time.

JShirley
October 3, 2003, 04:20 AM
Well, despite my belief that we should all have access to our own 40mm Bofors and 81mm mortar systems (if desired), I reckon I must be one of those damned insidious anti-freedom gun-grabbing types...just because I reckon that participation in a sport which includes not carrying as a precondition means that you shouldn't be carrying. Least if you have any honor. Not to mention that to carry under the circumstances would be stupid. Amazingly so.

As one site put it, "Fourth Rule: No real weapons allowed. This includes knives, real guns, assault helicopters, etc."

Having played OPFOR a good bit in the past few years, I can tell you (though without Jeff or Pat's extensive experience), that live carry with FOF just does not and should not mix. People tend to get hurt anyway, and tossing live weapons in the mix is just begging for trouble. If you think you're in too much risk to go without your carry piece, don't play.

Devonai
October 3, 2003, 06:05 AM
First of all, let me say that if I wanted to play paintball again, and the owner or the field or the organizer of the game asked/demanded that no live weapons would be present, then I would respect that request.

If it wasn't an issue, I wouldn't make it an issue. A paintball marker is completely different in function than a firearm, and the vast majority also look quite a bit different (especially pistols). I don't believe for a moment that a person of average intelligence and demeanor could ever mistake one for the other, no matter how intense the game became. Your marker is carried off-body, a live pistol would be carried concealed and in a retention holster. Bypassing the concealing garment and then the retention feature (thumbstrap) requires such a deliberate effort as to be almost completely impossible to do in error.

Some of you are drawing similarities with force-on-force law enforcement and military training. IMHO this is not a good analogy for the simple reason that you are training with live weapons loaded with blanks or marking ammunition (or unloaded entirely). I would NOT carry in this environment and I concur wholeheartedly with those who have said so. It is too easy indeed to confuse a live round with a blank/starburst especially when you're using your personal or duty weapon.

I've participated in OPFOR courtesy of the MVM and National Guard many times a year over the past three years. I did not carry a pistol because it is against the law to do so on a military base and I have no desire to visit the stockade. I trust myself to be able to make the correct legal or tactical decision even on a military base, but the law disagrees. Even if this was different, I would still make sure that I was carrying no live ammunition before participating in OPFOR. Accidents happen. And yes, deep in the woods on a military base is probably one of the safest places on the planet.

Paintball games are a completely different situation, and I stand by my opinion on carrying therein.

mattd
October 3, 2003, 11:28 AM
If you shoot some animals with a paintball gun they will think you are god and run away, others might get pissed. A little gun isn't big enough anyways, maybe.

Drjones
October 3, 2003, 01:59 PM
Devonai said exactly what I was going to say.

If it wasn't an issue, I wouldn't make it an issue. A paintball marker is completely different in function than a firearm, and the vast majority also look quite a bit different (especially pistols). I don't believe for a moment that a person of average intelligence and demeanor could ever mistake one for the other, no matter how intense the game became. Your marker is carried off-body, a live pistol would be carried concealed and in a retention holster. Bypassing the concealing garment and then the retention feature (thumbstrap) requires such a deliberate effort as to be almost completely impossible to do in error.

Some of you are drawing similarities with force-on-force law enforcement and military training. IMHO this is not a good analogy for the simple reason that you are training with live weapons loaded with blanks or marking ammunition (or unloaded entirely). I would NOT carry in this environment and I concur wholeheartedly with those who have said so. It is too easy indeed to confuse a live round with a blank/starburst especially when you're using your personal or duty weapon.

Jeff White
October 3, 2003, 09:42 PM
Devonai said;
Your marker is carried off-body, a live pistol would be carried concealed and in a retention holster. Bypassing the concealing garment and then the retention feature (thumbstrap) requires such a deliberate effort as to be almost completely impossible to do in error.

Actually you have hit on exactly why you shouldn't have a live weapon. Especially if you train for a real world encounter. There is an old adage that you will fight the way you train. And that's very true. If you've established the proper mindset to remain in the fight and win, you may find your CCW weapon in your hand despite the concealing garment and thumbreak. Think about it. If you have trained hard on deploying a secondary weapon upon the failure or your primary, you could end up with your backup in your hand without even conciously thinking about doing it. There is a thread over in Strategies and Tactics on close quarters tactics. Many of us carry backup weapons on a daily basis and train to employ them.

Now I'm not saying that anyone here is unaware enough that they will automatically default to a live backup weapon during a paintball match. But I can promise you that if CCW on the paintball fields was a common practice, someone would and there would be a tragedy. A tragedy that media and VPC and the Brady Bunch would love to exploit to hurt both CCW and paintball.

I personally advocate that no one be unarmed. And yes I would sooner go out withoutt my pants then my gun. But the danger is just too great in some places. Anyplace where you point simulated weapons at another person is no place to have a live weapon....

Jeff

tiberius
October 4, 2003, 12:25 AM
Personally, I don't think that there is a definitive answer that would apply to all paintball scenarios here.

After reading the excellent discussion in this thread, I'm of two minds. Intellectually and ideologically I am with the "personal armament is sacrosanct" crowd, but the “paintball is different” crowd has made string arguments.

I don’t really have anything to add, but I do want say that this has been a very “high road” type discussion and serves as a reminder that there really isn’t always a simple, definitive answer.

gun-fucious
October 4, 2003, 12:40 AM
heres a wrinkle

what is more dangerous

a CCW on the field

or a handfull of 68 caliber marbles in a tied pouch?

Edward429451
October 4, 2003, 01:01 AM
Shhhh.:D

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