I gotta beef with THR


PDA






mugsie
January 27, 2009, 01:06 PM
I've been a member for a while now and learned a lot of good information here, and that's a good thing. What I'm seeing more and more of now is not a good thing. A lot of posts seem to be getting locked when the author begins to express an opinion. For instance, in the social situations, one is locked because it's politics and not a "call to action". I'm beginning to think this forum is being invaded or run by antis. Unless we get vocal, unless we stand up and voice our opinions about gun control, how we feel about it, guess what people - you lose. You lose because you're not as vocal as the antis. They do not fight fair. You want to be polite? I can understand that, but at some point in our lives we need to stand up and fight for what we believe in. Polite be damned. The antis are a small minority yet they command a large voice. They shout out when they need to, they don't hide with their head in the sand thinking if they're polite it will all go away!

I think this board needs to lighten up on the censureship and begin to listen to what our members have to say.

There - now you can lock this thread or ban it entirely because I've said what I feel. I am active in the pro gun rights fight. I'm an NRA member. I'm former military and a range officer at my local range. I introduce newbys and train them in proper techniques. I participate in letter writing campaigns to my "elected" representatives. I do my part. I think it's up to THR to begin doing their part and not jumping on everyones posts everytime they say something a little "controversial".

:fire:

If you enjoyed reading about "I gotta beef with THR" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 01:10 PM
Please see this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5285418#post5285418) in the Tech Support section.

(It doesn't help that some of the people backing my argument have like 5 and 9 posts, but whatever.) There are others who are members in good standing. I think more and more people are starting to agree the "moderating" here is starting to get out of hand.

I'll post here what I posted there:

If we can talk about guns in movies (as people do, all the time) then we should be able to talk about guns in video games. Maybe this is a generational thing but most people under 25 have spent just as much time playing video games as they have watching movies. It's a valid form of entertainment and it's also a powerful cultural force that can't be discounted. In fact it's been suggested that the number of "Evil Black Rifle" owners is strongly influenced by popular video games like Counter-Strike and Call Of Duty. When you take this into consideration there's no reason the thread should be closed - the closing of it was just as arbitrary as the banning of certain guns based on cosmetic features and not others, and just as illogical.

The reason for the thread being closed was given:

We discuss real firearms here. There are videogame forums where this would be on topic, it's not on topic here.

By this same token, threads about guns in literature should be closed (because they're not about "real" guns, just fake guns on a piece of paper) and threads about guns on film and TV should be closed (because they're not about "real" guns, just images of guns depicted on a screen.)

What is so horrible about talking about guns in video games that you really needed to lock that thread? Or was it that video games are not a "mature" enough thing to discuss, and you thought that it somehow reflected poorly on the forum to be talking about such a "childish" pursuit?

The forum is called "General Gun Discussions." General Gun Discussions. There's already a specific thread for handguns and a specific thread for rifles. And a specific thread for shotguns, and a specific thread for hunting and a specific thread for target shooting. Anything else that is related to guns would seem to fall under the "general" gun discussion category. That includes a thread about guns in video games.

The guns being discussed in that thread ARE, in fact, "real" guns and many of us have experience using all of them. Forbidding such a thread from existing is really over-the-top moderation.

.......

I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the overzealous thread closings here but I am confident that some compromise can be reached, with a well-reasoned discussion, which is what I am trying to do here.

On the surface, this forum and online community of ours is about firearms. On a deeper level, it is about logic, reason and common sense. All of which are factors here. If we can't talk something out logically amongst ourselves, what hope do we have against the antis?

Final sentence emphasized, because I think it is the key issue here.

Justin
January 27, 2009, 01:12 PM
We're all pro-gun here. Don't make the mistake of confusing bellyaching on an internet forum with doing any sort of actual activism.

If you're interested in actively moving the RKBA football forward, we have an entire sub-section of THR dedicated to planning and going through with pro-RKBA political activities.

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 01:15 PM
I can only speak for myself here but I 1. Bombard my Facebook account with pro-gun articles and news stories, which reach hundreds of people because I have more than 700 friends on Facebook, 2. send pro-RKBA letters to the editor of the local paper every month, 3. give money to the NRA and 4. write in to various other news outlets when I see an anti-gun story. That is a lot of pro-2A activism for a 22 year old (who also has a life outside of guns, believe it or not, including many other hobbies) so whatever else you want to say, you can't accuse ME of not being active enough.

These thread closings are about more than the issue of activism. Threads are locked left and right for no real reason at all. It's getting out of hand, and I'd like to have real discussion about it instead of people changing the subject. Please. I respect the moderators here. I respect our fellow members. I know we can talk about this like reasonable people.

Geneseo1911
January 27, 2009, 01:16 PM
THR is a lot like the USA. It's not perfect, but it's the best we got. I got annoyed with the moderation a few months ago and looked around for something better; but without tight moderation, a site becomes ARF. Nothing wrong with that if you like idiot airsoft kiddies, foul language, and semi-nudity mixed in with your intelligible discussion, but I like the somewhat higher tone and cleaner format of THR.

I agree with you somewhat, but please remember the mods are walking a tight rope trying to keep the discussion genteel without being oppressive. I think some lean more one way than the other, but these things are always in flux.

Oh, and IBTL:)

EHL
January 27, 2009, 01:17 PM
Mugsie, Goldenhound I would voice my opinion and support your assesment of THR right now, but I think more than a few of us are worried about being banned for dissenting in our opinions from the Mods. Good luck.

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 01:21 PM
Oh, and IBTL

See, I realize this is somewhat in jest, but it really cuts right to the heart of the problem here: the fact that everyone chimes in with "IBTL" every time a somewhat controversial topic comes up, just automatically and passively accepting the fact that the moderators can lock the thread. Talk about "sheepdogs" and "sheep" and "sheeple" and all the other damn words that get thrown around here - what kind of people sit around on an online forum and don't even raise any voice of protest at all when our opinions are getting censored left and right at the slightest hint of any post that might raise some hairs.

COME ON.

Aren't we mature adults who can discuss things without other people telling us what we can and cannot say in such narrow terms? Sure, some moderating is needed to keep things civil and prevent personal attacks, but outside of that, the role of the moderators should be to KEEP DISCUSSIONS GOING, not close them down at the slightest controversial topic.

againstthagrane
January 27, 2009, 01:21 PM
In fact it's been suggested that the number of "Evil Black Rifle" owners is strongly influenced by popular video games like Counter-Strike and Call Of Duty.

i would have never purchased an AR-15 if it wasn't for call of duty 4. i'm not ashamed to admit it.

EHL
January 27, 2009, 01:24 PM
Not to jack the thread, but what does "IBTL" stand for??

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 01:26 PM
Good. The more people come in here and speak their mind, the more we can have some actual discourse here and possibly come to some understanding with the mods, instead of just being put down if they don't like what we have to say.

I'm sure everyone here has wondered about my signature at some point. It says, phoenetically, "PUNK ROCK" in Cyrillic. That means something to me. It means I'm not going to accept an authoritarian style of leadership, as long as I'm a civilian. (Were I to join the military, or were there to be a draft, I would happily submit to the strict discipline for the sake of the common good.) In absence of that, I am not the kind of guy who sits still when I see what I think is unequal balance of power.

And not to sound too harsh, but I think there's some problems with the balance of power here. There's too many limitations on what we can and cannot say. Let's respect the 1st amendment as much as we respect the 2nd.

melikesguns
January 27, 2009, 01:27 PM
I have been a lurker for a loooooong time, but I have noticed more locked than open threads here lately. Maybe the Dems. have purcased the board.


by the way: IBTL = In Before The Lock

Justin
January 27, 2009, 01:33 PM
I have been a lurker for a loooooong time, but I have noticed more locked than open threads here lately. Maybe the Dems. have purcased the board.

Yep, that's totally it. Later this afternoon Obama and I are going to have tea and crumpets and talk about how awesome it will be to reinstate the ban on so-called "assault weapons."

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=29698&d=1128794076

Zundfolge
January 27, 2009, 01:34 PM
GH, I've been an active member here on THR since day one (and was as active on TFL before it went away ... this post is my 8,400th post) the problem is that once upon a time THR could absorb these kind of silly, pointless "fun" threads.

But in the last year or two the number of members here has grown exponentially, and the number if idiots posting here has grown as well so that now if you allow these kind of threads to flourish we'll end up with a thousand of them.

I can see your point, and I agree that heavier moderation HAS made THR a little less fun, but without it this place would descend into chaos and become worthless ... go spend a few hours lurking around a gaming forum and you'll see what I mean.

Its unfortunate, but THR has to some degree become a victim of its own success.

There's still APS ... lots of meaningless BS allowed there.

EHL
January 27, 2009, 01:38 PM
Golden Hound, I think you're getting a little too zealous. 1st amendment doesn't apply in this or any other forum. Moderators are the antithesis of 1st amendment. I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just the truth. If it weren't for the mods and established guidelines of communication, we'd have all kinds of filthy language, porn, nudity and other things that I tend to shy away from. THR isn't perfect, by far,(the censorship is borderline gestappo) but of all the forums I frequent, I prefer THR the best of them all. I think alot of us in here feel the same way, so we are fearful of being banned so we don't speak up even when there was a clearly bad call made by the mods. I too agree that there ought to be more discourse between the mods and the members and not simply locking threads because "they don't agree with it" or "it's boring". Bad threads tend to die out anyways for lack of interest, but going through THR pages, I can't help but notice all the little lock icons on "controversial subjects". Isn't gun ownership and RKBA "controversial" in nature?? Just seems funny to me to attempt to keep things "uncontroversial" given the subject matter of this entire forum.

Hope I made it IBTL:)

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 01:39 PM
Taken from the other thread, but relevant here:

GH, why do you have such an obsession with posting threads about guns in fictional contexts?

I'll be quite frank with you:

That stuff bores any serious shooter to absolute tears. Why? Because people who are actually interested in shooting are out pulling triggers at a range.

They're practicing, competing, hunting, plinking and experimenting.

They aren't constantly sitting at home playing COD5 on the XBox 360 or obsessing over the firearms carried by Mark Wahlberg in Max Payne.

Can you list the number of threads that I have actually POSTED - i.e. started myself - that are about guns in fictional contexts? Trust me, they are far outweighed by my threads about guns in real contexts. I don't have an obsession with it - I don't know where you're getting that.

I don't think I have ever posted, or even posted IN, a thread about the guns in video games or in Max Payne. I've posted some things about historical firearms in historical movies, because I'm a history buff. (Those tend to be based on real events, so I wouldn't call it fictional at all. Such as "Defiance" - that movie was based on real events. Your characterization of it as "fictional" is completely out of line.)

I am as serious a shooter as the average person here. (Obviously there are those who are much more experienced than I, and I happily defer to them when it comes to technical matters.) But - unbelievably - I have a life outside of guns! I have other interests! Movies! Art! Literature! History! Music! Bodybuilding! I'm sure everyone else here has the same deal - we're not all just a bunch of robots who are programmed to only think about guns all the time and nothing else. So I try to incoroporate my other interests, sometimes, into discussions here on this board. Because I can't just cut my brain in half and say "this is the gun half, and this is the half for everything else." That's not how it works.

For the record I DO NOT PLAY A LOT OF VIDEO GAMES. I spend much more time doing other more productive things (although that doesn't mean I'm too pretentious to enjoy playing video games SOMETIMES.) The reason I objected to the closing of that thread is exactly what I've stated, several times: video games are important in introducing new shooters to our sport. Lots of younger people get interested in guns through the video games they play.

What is so wrong about acknowledging that and integrating it into our forum here?

Honestly your mentality here is the FUDD mentality, just in a different package.

Justin
January 27, 2009, 01:47 PM
Look, I'll be totally honest here:

The threads that are the best, the ones that need to be the status quo on THR are threads dealing with people actually generating relevant and original content.

Tell us about your dry-fire regimen. Tell us about your experiences learning to run a reloading press, tell us about the new firearm you just bought and how it stacks up against others you've shot, tell us about your experience introducing a new shooter to the range, tell us what you've done to learn to shoot more accurately, tell us about a match you attended.

In short, go out and generate actual content. Don't just sit on your ass and re-post news stories from the mass media, carp about how characters in XYZ movie fired too many shots, or how you think Counterstrike is the most awesome thing ever.

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 01:51 PM
Tell us about your dry-fire regimen.

This would belong in either the rifle or pistol forum.

Tell us about your experiences learning to run a reloading press

This would belong in the reloading forum.

tell us about the new firearm you just bought and how it stacks up against others you've shot

This would be in either the rifle or the pistol forum

tell us about your experience introducing a new shooter to the range

This would be in Strategies and Tactics

tell us what you've done to learn to shoot more accurately, tell us about a match you attended.

This would be in the Competition Shooting forum

....See what I'm getting at here. We have ONE "General Gun Discussion" forum for everything else that DOESN'T fit into those categories.

I'm sorry, Justin. Your arguments are very weak, and relying on hyperbole ("Don't just sit on your ass and re-post news stories from the mass media, carp about how characters in XYZ movie fired too many shots, or how you think Counterstrike is the most awesome thing ever.") You are not doing a good job at all of proving that the current moderator policy is at all justified.

EHL
January 27, 2009, 01:58 PM
GH, you're going to get banned. It's obvious this thread isn't going to do anygood. This is a soapbox so that members can rant but won't make any difference in the end. You're up against the establishment, the odds aren't in your favor. I'd quit while you're ahead. I agree with alot of what you stated, I'd prefer for good members that are free thinkers not get banned on a whim for something like this thread. Stick around man.

melikesguns
January 27, 2009, 02:00 PM
Mod must be having a bad day, that was a little harsh.

Or he is upset because he doesn't know if Oleg or Derek is his boss:eek:

Old Fuff
January 27, 2009, 02:00 PM
Well so far I'm the senior with the most posts, which simply means that I've been around for a long time, or that I have too much time on my hands... ;)

But anyway, I really prefer the tight moderation, although I sometimes get upset with a decision.

But then, the only one thatís perfect is of course me. :what:

We do have an associated site named Armed and Polite Society (APS) with a link to it in the upper/right corner of the page. If you go there you will find that a lot of issues are permitted and even welcomed, that arenít too appreciated here. There you can let off steam and not make waves, at least most of the time.

The moderators here arenít exactly overpaid Ė in fact they arenít paid anything at all. So what they get is a lot of grief and no compensation. At best they have to make some hard calls, and frankly Ė they donít always agree with each other, let alone the membership.

But overall this forum has a pretty enviable reputation of the quality of its content, and the expertise it often offers.

So after over 13,000 posts there are some things I can tolerate even if I donít always agree. :fire:

As I said, Iím the only one thatís perfect, although for some reason I canít understand not everyone agreesÖ :D

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 02:05 PM
Well, I certainly don't want to get banned. Like I said, I do respect the moderators here and ultimately it IS their call to govern the place as they see fit. So I've said my piece, and I'll bow out.

white russian
January 27, 2009, 02:08 PM
I have noticed the new site thr.us seems to be a little more tolerant of political statements even though the moderators are mostly the same.

I have also noticed on this site that you are allowed to have political statements in your signature.

Justin
January 27, 2009, 02:09 PM
But - unbelievably - I have a life outside of guns! I have other interests! Movies! Art! Literature! History! Music! Bodybuilding! I'm sure everyone else here has the same deal - we're not all just a bunch of robots who are programmed to only think about guns all the time and nothing else. So I try to incoroporate my other interests, sometimes, into discussions here on this board.

Everyone has outside interests and activities. Despite the fact that I'm much more serious about shooting than most (and not as serious as I like) I still manage to have outside interests.

But you don't see me trying to shoehorn discussions about photography, print design, my girlfriend, or the Scooba I just bought into threads on THR.

I don't think I have ever posted, or even posted IN, a thread about the guns in video games or in Max Payne. I've posted some things about historical firearms in historical movies, because I'm a history buff. (Those tend to be based on real events, so I wouldn't call it fictional at all. Such as "Defiance" - that movie was based on real events. Your characterization of it as "fictional" is completely out of line.)

You seem to think that I'm singling you out here. You're not the only person who posts movie threads. Also, I'm well aware of the film Defiance, and that it's based on actual history. Should I be using asterisks to footnote every one of my posts so that I can list every exception?

This would belong in either the rifle or pistol forum.

Really? Because no one has a dry-fire regimen with multiple firearms? No one actually puts thought into the general mental process of dry-firing that applies to practically any firearm?

This would belong in the reloading forum.

Ok, you've got me on that one. Regardless, that doesn't suddenly make all of the off-topic posts suddenly on-topic.

This would be in either the rifle or the pistol forum
Generally, yes, but there are many exceptions.

This would be in Strategies and Tactics

No, it wouldn't. Strategies and tactics is specifically for discussing firearms and training as they pertain to self-defense scenarios, not training newbies.

This would be in the Competition Shooting forum

Training yourself to be a better shot, or attending training with someone who's better than you isn't just a competition-related activity.

The reason I objected to the closing of that thread is exactly what I've stated, several times: video games are important in introducing new shooters to our sport. Lots of younger people get interested in guns through the video games they play.

I'm well aware of the fact that many Gen-X and Gen-Y shooters have come to gun ownership via playing video games. However, any time a thread like that is started, it has five comments of relevant posting followed by four pages of talking about dual-wielding Desert Eagles or somesuch.

Honestly your mentality here is the FUDD mentality, just in a different package.

No, it isn't. It's that of a staff member who's been tasked with keeping an eye on an extremely busy forum with many members and a technical purpose.

melikesguns
January 27, 2009, 02:17 PM
thehighroad= good entertainment

Justin
January 27, 2009, 02:17 PM
Or he is upset because he doesn't know if Oleg or Derek is his boss

Oleg walked away from us, not the other way around. You're, of course, free to believe whatever you want about the situation, but throwing little barbs in regarding a situation that you are ill-informed to comment on makes you look bad.

Larry Ashcraft
January 27, 2009, 02:23 PM
And quit talking about getting banned. Nobody gets banned for carping about the moderation, unless they insulting or profane.

wyocarp
January 27, 2009, 02:58 PM
I like this forum, but I've just come to expect that most of the threads that interest me will be locked. The funny ones, the informative ones, the thought provoking ones, are the ones that don't stay long.

EHL
January 27, 2009, 03:07 PM
And quit talking about getting banned. Nobody gets banned for carping about the moderation, unless they insulting or profane.
Sure.:rolleyes: There's a whole bunch of fellas over at THR.us that would beg to differ. Many of them were banned for simply asking a question about the current situation with the split in the forums. I laid low for several weeks while all those heads were rolling.

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 03:09 PM
To Wyocarp: That was what I was going to say to the assertion that...

That stuff bores any serious shooter to absolute tears. Why? Because people who are actually interested in shooting are out pulling triggers at a range.

If that's true, that they bore so many people, why do they always get to 3 or 4 pages before being locked? Why do they always have a billion views? Guess what, people get sick of the same old AK vs. AR and 9MM vs .45 and they want to see a unique topic sometimes.

Justin
January 27, 2009, 03:29 PM
I'd agree that those sorts of discussions are played out as well. But at least they're on topic.

taliv
January 27, 2009, 03:48 PM
If that's true, that they bore so many people, why do they always get to 3 or 4 pages before being locked?

because there are lots of juveniles here who are very interested in guns but can't own them yet, so they like to talk about what they have experience in. see games, video


guys, It would be a mistake to think that everyone agrees with you about relaxing the topics and doing less thread closing and bans for infantile behavior. as a new moderator, i have to say i've been shocked at how much "reported post" email I get from THR.

melikesguns
January 27, 2009, 03:54 PM
The truth remains, If I created a thread about how great Robar or lonewolfdistributing is, I would get banned permanately for spamming!!!!

taliv
January 27, 2009, 03:58 PM
why? how is that different than creating a thread about how great glocks or colt is?

melikesguns
January 27, 2009, 04:02 PM
it has happened. I was at a friends and he registered and was banned the next day, because he linked to Robar, and was praising there services

Justin
January 27, 2009, 04:09 PM
That's very odd. A cursory search of staff records shows no such reason for banning a member.

JShirley
January 27, 2009, 04:24 PM
This is a soapbox so that members can rant

No...it's not.

John

hso
January 27, 2009, 04:28 PM
People get banned for violating the forum rules or for repeatedly pushing them (after multiple warnings). Disagreements in Technical don't warrant bans when they're carried out in a civil manner. By the same token, Technical doesn't give license to ignore the requirements. Pushing to get banned by violating them here won't win you any prizes.

dot US and dot ORG comparisons don't work very well because of the relative size of the groups. A smaller forum self-regulates by peer pressure to maintain the culture. Before THR got as large as it is the group self moderated to a great extent. New members were mentored by experienced ones and the culture was maintained. Once membership exploded and peer pressure alone couldn't maintain the culture of civil discourse. Moderation became more active and the inevitable accusations about repression results. dot US is much smaller with a far less active membership and much lower growth and culture is easier to maintain with peer pressure.

I'm interested in hearing about ways to improve THR. The same old suggestions that have been answered so many times that we have FAQs and stickies on them do get tiresome, but real issues about how the place can better serve the community without changing it's basic vision and mission are welcome.

BTW, nobody here "works" for anyone. The Mods donate their time and support the place so we're all volunteers who work together for each other and the club.

Mal H
January 27, 2009, 04:34 PM
I'm doing something that I normally don't do. I'm reopening this thread with a challenge for melikesguns.

You said:

it has happened. I was at a friends and he registered and was banned the next day, because he linked to Robar, and was praising there services

Please give me the user name of the person who was banned for linking to Robar and praising their services. If that was the only reason for banning, I will personally unban that person.

JohnBT
January 27, 2009, 04:44 PM
"Talk about "sheepdogs" and "sheep" and "sheeple" and all the other damn words that get thrown around here - what kind of people sit around on an online forum and don't even raise any voice of protest at all when our opinions are getting censored left and right at the slightest hint of any post that might raise some hairs."

I see, we're all idiots and you're the only smart one. :scrutiny:

Nice one. Got any more useful things to say about the membership there buddy?

After you've been around here a few years, assuming you stay that long, maybe you will understand. And learn to ask questions first, before complaining.

John

Golden Hound
January 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
Did I say you were all idiots? Don't set up a strawman argument. I just think people are maybe being overly passive about (what I see as) over zealous moderating. As I've said a million times I respect everyone here, even the people I disagree with.

Mal H
January 27, 2009, 04:51 PM
I knew it might be a mistake to reopen this. melikesguns has logged out so I won't be getting an answer any time soon. I have PM'ed him, so if I get the user who was banned for liking Robar, I'll post it here along with the circumstances and outcome.

Closed - again.

If you enjoyed reading about "I gotta beef with THR" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!