If it turns out that there actually IS an AWB...


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Golden Hound
January 28, 2009, 02:29 AM
...will we be forbidden from talking about it here, due to the 'no politics' rule, or will that rule be suspended in that specific case? Because, let's face it, if our worst nightmare comes true, I think we on this forum will have little else that we want to discuss when it happens. But since it's a political issue, I have this image in my mind of 30 locked threads all in a row...I mean, it'll be of such pressing importance that it won't be possible to avoid discussing. What will the board policy be, in such an event?

I think probably the best thing to do, if this actually does come to pass, is just have a sticky on it to concentrate all the discussion in one thread.

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HeavenlySword
January 28, 2009, 02:31 AM
oh noes! moderator with padlock approaching!

Golden Hound
January 28, 2009, 02:32 AM
I don't mind if this is locked, as long as that question is answered. (Actually maybe it should have been posted in Technical Support - I don't know.)

Jorg Nysgerrig
January 28, 2009, 02:34 AM
If it is passed, it will then become a legal issue and discussed as such.

Golden Hound
January 28, 2009, 02:37 AM
Gotcha.

1KPerDay
January 28, 2009, 02:37 AM
Dude... let it go, man.

Golden Hound
January 28, 2009, 03:52 AM
I fail to see how a completely valid question is somehow not "letting it go" (if you were referring to my earlier complaints about this forum, which I stand by.) It's a reasonable question to ask.

(Also, it was answered.)

JohnKSa
January 28, 2009, 04:40 AM
I gotta believe that you would be far happier somewhere else...

EHL
January 28, 2009, 05:03 AM
Hey guys,
lay off of GH. The guy asked a simple question and now everybody is jumping all over him like he asked something inappropriate. He even ended his question and thereby the thread when he responded "gotcha" to the mod.

JohnKSa
January 28, 2009, 05:10 AM
You must have missed this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=423524

and this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=423447

Golden Hound
January 28, 2009, 06:13 AM
I gotta believe that you would be far happier somewhere else...

It's called the other THR, and I assure you I will be spending my time there after the frustration of these recent threads.

JohnKSa
January 28, 2009, 06:27 AM
I call 'em like I see 'em. Good luck.

bikerdoc
January 28, 2009, 06:39 AM
please go to the other site,

Beren
January 28, 2009, 08:33 AM
Review the rules for the Activism forum, Hound.

Once upon a time, we had a Legislative Awareness forum. It wouldn't be for discussion of AWB bills, but would provide notice, updates, and points of contact concerning them. Would the membership like to see something like that return or is that need served by the Activism forum?

hso
January 28, 2009, 10:18 AM
GH,

There are forums at THR to discuss issues like this. As has been pointed out Activism would be the appropriate forum for plans to prevent/reverse any AWB and Legal would be the appropriate forum to discuss the law itself. Without defining the limit on scope for those discussions threads without a focus on analyzing the law or working against it become a huge mess of hand wringing or posturing (neither of which makes any contribution in getting something accomplished).

ArfinGreebly provided one of the best explanations for why political discussions don't work well on the net in another thread here in Technical on political discussion. The short form is that they mostly consist of hand wringing and whining or chest beating and posturing where enough of the participants can't remain civil so they go in the ditch and end up in endless locks with banning of otherwise reasonable members. Here's the better explanation he provided -

The Great Politics Purge Of 2007
Some of you may not have been here for the Great Politics Purge.

Some of you may not have had time to read Oleg's sticky describing the changes at THR from around that time.

In the brief time I've been a moderator, I've managed to track down the reasons and causes for the migration and the purge. Kind of a self-imposed homework assignment.

One of the principles of The High Road is civility. Passion is fine, argument is fine -- but attack the argument, not the arguer, and spirited discussion is invited -- but not personal attacks and slurs.

Now, that's a bedrock principle here. If you can't be civil in your conduct here, you'll be cautioned and, if you still can't be civil, you'll be gone.

Something we learned the hard way was that -- for whatever reasons -- it is simply too hard for people to be civil in political discussions. Very much like civility in religious discussions. Sooner or later, someone who's a valuable forum member is going to just lose it and brain some complete moron loser idiot waste of oxygen with a frying pan . . . and we wind up having to ban the valued member. Often we wind up banning the oxygen thief, too, but the collateral damage -- to rational, reasonable, experienced, valued members -- is often great and tragic.

Professional trolls -- really well-disciplined provocateurs -- would show up during the run-up to elections and cause havoc. The noise index in politics got to the point where moderators gave up trying to keep order in threads, and just locked them, banning offenders who threw insults or other personal attacks.

After seeing that pattern too many times in the realm of politics, we (actually Oleg and the moderators & admins at the time, I was not yet a mod) decided it would be better for the board to lose the incivility attendant with politics than to continue to lose friends and valued members because they were suckered into a serious rules violation.

I'm sure most of you consider yourselves stable, rational, reasoned people.

In the face of a person whose practiced vocation is provoking others, with seemingly "reasoned" but outrageous premises, politely-stated blatant distortions and falsehoods, it's easier than you might believe to just call the guy the name he really has earned. And suddenly you find yourself banned. For a personal attack.

The other guy might also get the hammer for trolling, but not always. Some of these guys are very smooth.

I've gone back through the archives and seen the frustration and despair among the moderators from that time. I've reviewed some of the material that led, finally, to removing politics in an effort to avoid losing any more long-time members who were, after all, simply calling a spade a spade.

You see, THR is populated largely by self-sufficient folks who don't go running to mommy and daddy every time they see something they don't like. They're more inclined to handle it themselves. They're accustomed to taking out their own trash. So, when they see a troll, they're very likely to pummel him personally rather than "whining" to the moderators.

The professional-grade trolls and provocateurs know this, and it's cake for them to pretend to be earnest and sincere and "misled" as they bait their hooks and trail them in the shallows, patiently waiting for the bite they know will come. Sooner or later, some guy with more than 7,000 posts and four years on the forum will call this troll on it, and speak his name publicly. And then the mods have to issue a warning. And, depending on just how independent the member is, and what his "suffer fools gladly" threshold is, he may simply blow up, and we lose him forever.

So, in consideration of all this, we no longer do religion and politics here.

We have APS for that now. The moderation style there is a little different, and they've adapted to the necessities of dealing with oxygen thieves and trolls.

And, getting killed there doesn't mean getting killed here.

So we continue to have a place here where we can conduct the civil discourse of firearms, their ownership, the rights attendant thereto, their proper use, the development of the skills in their use, and so on.

We do appreciate that activism is a necessary part of retaining the right to keep and bear arms, and the Activism sub-forum was established for that.

We also appreciate the need for a place to discuss the current and pending laws that affect how and where we use firearms, so we have the Legal sub-forum.

What we do NOT have is the place where we can go to rant about politicians, stupid policies, idiotic laws, and the decline and fall of America.

We no longer wish to lose quality members to the inevitable baiting that accompanies these things.

So, really, if you MUST talk politics -- beyond actual activism -- then go to APS. The majority of the membership there are also members here. The moderators are also members here (and some do mod work in both places).

Activism isn't ranting or whining. All ranting and whining about politics and religion has been assigned to APS.

It's a decision that has been long since made and a decision what wasn't lightly made.

taliv
January 28, 2009, 10:54 AM
fwiw, we did suspend the politics rule during the Heller dust up last summer. heck, there were threads on it in every forum. they were mostly allowed to run for a while and then merged or closed when theygot too far off topic.

i suspect, if hr1022 or something got out of committee and a vote was imminent, it would be the main topic of discussion around here. but i also doubt you'll be around to read it since you seem so intent on trying to pick a fight here.

jenrob
January 28, 2009, 02:44 PM
I've been a reader at THR for quiet some time. A member for just a little over a year.

I have seen things that get on the political side here and there. It's not often, but I beleive that if an AWB was put int play that THR would allow disutions on this subject.

I see other very contriversial subjects that come up that are closed as they should be. This helps keep this a great place to come and read and learn.

I also see where GH is coming from on the other threads, but leave it up to the mods to do there jobs keeping this forum going the way it is.

As stated a few post earlier this forum has grown a lot just sense I have been around and to try to keep up with every thread that is started and stick with it to make sure it doesn't go overboard would be a nightmare for the mods.

You could still discuse an AWB in the actvism portion if done right. but there again lies a problem would it stay that way or get side tracked and blow completely off course this would again be another thing for the mods to have to watch.

Jeff White
January 28, 2009, 03:11 PM
Golden Hound I'm going to be very blunt here. You don't run this place. The staff does. The rules and policies have evolved as the membership grew and it became necessary to implement them to keep the forum running the way it needs to so it can accomplish it's mission.

If you don't like the rules, a google search will bring up dozens of other firearms forums and maybe one of them will be more to your liking. I encourage you to do that and go try other places. We aren't going to change the way things are run here no matter how many threads you start in tech support whining about things. I can't be clearer then that. We are done explaining things to you. Either follow the rules and stop whining about why the rules are there or leave. Those are your options here. You have no other options. Is that understood? We're not doing the daily "Golden Hound doesn't like the rules so please tell me why I have to follow them." threads anymore. If you have a legitimate issue, that's fine. The constant crying and whining about how things are done has worn itself out. Everyone is tired of it.

Stay and play by the rules and stop whining or pick up your keyboard and go home. It doesn't matter to us anymore, either solution works, just pick one or we're going to pick for you.

cassandrasdaddy
January 28, 2009, 05:07 PM
you gotta wonder if a guy has problems in multiple places if hes the common element as opposed to all those places having issues

jenrob
January 28, 2009, 05:09 PM
I fail to see how a completely valid question is somehow not "letting it go" (if you were referring to my earlier complaints about this forum, which I stand by.) It's a reasonable question to ask.

(Also, it was answered.)

He does have a point mods maybe after his other post everybody jumped on this and rode it hard.

he did ask a simple ? and when ansered replied "gotcha"

Some other through his other post in which inturn put him on the spot without giving him the benifit of the dought.

He defended himself and then it went all bad for him.

You must have missed this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=423524

and this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=423447

Man if everybody went off my past I would be in trouble

1KPerDay
January 28, 2009, 07:31 PM
If your "problematic" posts were all in the past couple of days you might deserve it. IMO

hso
January 28, 2009, 11:02 PM
Didn't we answer this question with "see Activism & Legal"?

redneck2
January 29, 2009, 08:44 AM
I've known more than one guy in my life whose idea of fun was to go to bars every week end and get into fights.

I guess technology has shifted some of us from whiskey to keyboards.

In the future, if anyone has such a question, I'd simply PM one of the moderators, but maybe that's just me.

When my kids were at home, I'd get the "that's not fair" routine. I was quite clear that nothing had to be fair in my little kingdom. My roof, my rules. I think that applies here. Some just seem to be slow learners.

Gord
January 29, 2009, 05:22 PM
I have this image in my mind of 30 locked threads all in a row

I wouldn't be surprised - people get into a panic, can't possibly take ten seconds to do a search or skim the first couple pages of a forum and end up posting massive amounts of dupe threads. The mods can do thread merges, but that only works up to a certain point - thereafter it's more efficient just to lock the new "OMG HAY GUYS DID YOU HEAR..." threads with a pointer to the existing thread.

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