12 gauge and big bears

[Readyrod]

I know that this gets talked about a lot but, as far as I've seen on the threads I've seen, whenever someone brings it up it turns into a rifle versus handgun versus shotgun debate. I like hiking in bear country as well as other places. I also want to do some big river trips up north when I get back to Canada. As well, I want to live in a small community near the wilds when I get back (from Japan). In all these places it's real easy to run into bears, which has already happened to me a lot. I'm planning to get a .308 for hunting. I don't want to hunt bear. I just want bear protection. (yes I will carry bear spray, but I want a little more insurance than that) I'm planning to have a 12 gauge smooth bore pump action in my collection and I'm wondering if I can rely on it to take out a big (meaning grizzly or polar) bear that's looking at me as lunch. What would be the effective range, with respect to aim/accuracy/stopping power? How many shots would it take? What kind of slug should I use? As for shot placement, I imagine it would be easy to place a shot on a bear that was still or moving slowly, but I've seen them running (thankfully away from me, so far) and they tend to bounce around a lot when running. I'm sure I could hit it running but I can't guarantee which part I would hit. I'm thinking that a slug or two (or three maybe) would cause enough damage to stop him.
What do you think guys? Should I use a 12 gauge for big bear defense?

[EHL]

I'm sure you're going to hear everybody chastizing you for not relying solely on bearspray. I'll attempt an answer to your query though. If you are going to be toting around a carbine length firearm, why not make it a rifle? It will surely get the job done, provided it's legal to carry in the place that you will be walking through and if it's a powerful enough cartridge. Personally, I'd prefer a combination of bear spray and a 1911 chambered in 460 Roland, tucked away in a nice incognito holster, but that's only cuz I wouldn't want to lugging a shotgun or rifle around in the park for a mere nature hike. I'd think that the shotgun would be iffy depending on the distance, and the type of ammunition/powder charge of your preferred shells. I personally wouldn't risk my life on finding out.

[MCgunner]

12 gauge will work fine at close range, but you gotta be fast with it. I'm another that'd rather have my handgun on my hip for portability, in my case a hot loaded Blackhawk in .45 Colt. Danged thing could be on top of you before you have a chance to put the shotgun into action. It's the same reason I prefer a short barrel handgun for checking out bumps in the night. I don't have a .454 Casull or I'd prefer that. :D Only bear country I hike in, though, is black bear country, so I don't have a real need for more caliber, but I do want a Freedom Arms .454 some day just because. Hell, when I've hiked, most times I've just had a medium frame 4" .357 magnum on me loaded with 158 grain SWCs. I really think that's plenty for anything I'll bump into in New Mexico or Arizona or Texas. Likelihood of having to use it is near nil anyway and bear spray is kinda goofy for black bears. You can normally scare 'em off. Browns, well, I'd probably want some. If I lived in big bear country, I'd probably be saving for an X frame, too, or that Freedom Arms in .454. I really like Freedom Arms revolvers.

[rcmodel]

No reason at all it wouldn't work just fine.

That's what the Alaska Fish & Game guys use.

(Notice I didn't tell you to get a .460 Weathery, .500 S&W, or an SKS!)

rc

[ReloaderFred]

Since you're talking about Canada, a handgun is more difficult to obtain there, so the shotgun makes sense. I hunted Northern Alberta last year and depending on where you're hiking, black bears were more prevelent in the area I hunted. Unless you're going to be hiking near the Arctic Circle, polar bears aren't that common, but are there.

In Alaska and the Northwest Territory, they use 12 gauge shotguns and rifled slugs for bear protection all the time. Just practice with the gun and load to make sure you're familiar with both.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[7mmstalker]

Your going to get a zillion opinions, none of them are wrong, most are partly right!
To stick with your original questions, take a look at Rottweil (?) slug loads maybe found under the name Brenneke also. They are slightly smaller in dia. than other slugs made for smoothbores, and a LOT harder lead alloy. The slug (rifled) also sports a more pointed tip.
A freind told me of an instance when multiple slug rounds were "shrugged -off" by a brown bear in their camp. He was in a canoe approaching the camp and the critter was mauling their poorly stored ice-chest to get to the 2 liter Coke bottles! He stated that they hit it 2 or 3 times with traditional 12ga. slugs broadside - don't recall the distance, but he said the hits were visually obvious and the bear wasn't giving up his Coke until multiple shots hit him near the shoulder area.
I am very reluctant to believe that story 100%, the adrenaline and age of the teller were at opposite ends of the scale. If there is any thing to be taken from it, the message is that common slugs don't have great penetration power. I have seen 3" mag slugs mushroom and stop with NO PENETRATION against the door of a 70's Chrysler New Yorker from about 25 feet. Bears aren't cars, but, if I'm going to shoot at one (not to protect an ice chest!) the goal is to kill it before it kills me or one of my party.
Second hand quote from a Coast Guard guy stationed on Kodiak Island for search and rescue: "A lot of the dead hunters we find from bear attacks had a pistol in their hands or nearby".
A revolver is good to have, but if an attacking animal is too close for a short-barreled shotgun, it will likely do some serious damage to you even after being hit. Big bears are tough to kill, and are noted for continuing a battle even when mortally wounded, then after putting down their adversary (you) they limp away and die.
AK Fish and Game Dept. has some good info. on shot placement /advice for bear hunters. The recurring message in their info. is make sure your shot placement "breaks down" the bear. This means shoulder or spine shots to anchor it where it's at -nobody likes a wounded bear. Their bones are huge and tough. Furthermore, their skulls are thick and brain not too big!
The first bear I bagged was a 6' black, pulled the first shot and hit the spine between ribs and hip. It fell/squatted only long enough for a quick follow up shot on the front shoulder, hitting the heart and breaking the far side bone in two. First hit paralyzed, but only the back half, not the front half with the dangerous parts! The first slug was totally absorbed into the spine, no exit, no breakage of bone!!! That was a 175gr. from factory loaded 7mm Rem. mag. at ~ 150 meters.
That is just my own experience illustrating the toughness of the smallest of the 3 bears you may encounter in northern country.
The effective range of a smoothbore 12 ga. isn't great. Again opinions are heavy on this, but I would guess ~50 meters or less for accuracy and not much more than 75 for good stopping power on a big bear. It could benefit you greatly to try some different types of ammo to see what gives best accuracy, be ready for a sore shoulder!

[oletymer]

If a pump 12 ga is what you want get a rifled barrel for it. You then can use the sabot rounds. They are far superior to the lead slugs for soothbores.

[saskboy]

Our neighbor is a hunting guide in the yukon and in northern saskatchewan, he has used several different bear defence guns and sticks with the one that saved his life. A 12 ga. short barrel 870 full of slugs. It was near dark and was looking for a wounded bear his client shot. He never saw the bear comming till it was almost on him and he shot it in the eye, the bear dropped just infront of him, his legs gave out and he hit the ground beside the bear. His hands trembled the rest of the day! Luck shot?

[rcmodel]

They are far superior to the lead slugs for soothbores.How exactly is a 350 grain .45 pistol bullet in a plastic sleeve far superior to a 437 to 460 grain 12ga Brenneke slug, making a 3/4" hole, with over 2,400 ft/lb energy?

rc

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

the bear wasn't giving up his Coke until multiple shots hit him near the shoulder area.

I didn't give up my Coke until after the doc told me I had to, if I wanted to see my grandchldren.

Seriously, if you really want a 12 ga. check out this neat little shotgun, and it comes with a pistol grip. It's an excellent Chinese copy of the 870.

http://www.canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=11&cat=0&page=1

If it were my choice, I'd choose a S&W X-frame 460ES, much handier than even the shortest shotgun.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

double post

[OregonJohnny]

If I were asked to go hike alone into the middle of brown bear country (not black bear, we have black bears in my parents back yard) and I was not allowed bear spray, and I had my choice of any conventional easily-obtained firearm to take with me, I'd choose my 870 Marine. I've put so many thousands of rounds through an 870 that it feels like an extension of me. My follow up shots with an 870 are faster than with any of my revolvers or rifles. Loaded with 6+1 Brenneke slugs and always held at the ready, I'd be much less inclined to mess my pants than if I were armed with a .454 Casull handgun. I think a magnum bolt-action rifle is a far better choice for hunting, but lightning-fast follow up shots would take A LOT of practice. From everything I've heard, a brownie charging at 35mph from 30 or 40 yards away leaves you hardly any time to react, but if your firearm is at the ready, and you can cycle that pump and pull the trigger rapidly in your sleep, you might get lucky. You could do a lot worse than a short barreled 12 gauge pump gun with Brenneke slugs, that's for sure.

[oletymer]

Well, lets see RC, how are they superior. The 12 gauge Core-Lokt Ultra sabot bullet is a .58 caliber, 385 grain HP semi-spitzer. The catalog MV is 1900 fps and the 100 yard velocity is 1648 fps. The ME is given as 3086 ft. lbs. and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 2325 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +1.8" at 50 yards, +2.4" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

Got the picture now

[Inspector]

Myself, I would pack my 500 Magnum 4" barrel in my Desantis leather holster.

I'd probably use some kind of hard-nosed bullets, like flat points and at least 450 grain.

[Readyrod]

Good info guys. The reason I'm thinking shotgun is because in Canada only licensed trappers and licensed professionals working in the bush can carry a handgun for protection. It totally sucks and is a law that was obviously made by people who don't go out in the bush much. I've met people who carry anyway but you don't want to get caught. My hunting rifle is going to be a .308, I think, and I don't want to buy another one just for bear if I can avoid it. That leaves the shotgun. I have nothing against bear spray and I've always thought that it would be good under certain circumstances. Whenever I've seen black bears I just yelled at them and they ran away, no problem except that twice I didn't notice the cubs. That could have ended badly. The one time I ran into a grizzly (with a cub btw) I just got back into the helicopter. Lucky again that the helicopter hadn't left or I would have been toast. I want something that packs a punch for that time when I'm not so lucky.

[earlthegoat2]

Since you will be using a 308 to hunt with why not make that your bear gun as well. As long as it is quick handling it should do fine. Or opt for a 45-70 levergun with some hot ammo like the stuff form buffalo bore. Wont need an extra bear gun if the one your using is a bear gun.

[Readyrod]

I got into this on another thread and the impression I got was that a .308 wasn't big enough for big bear. Remember I don't really want to hunt them, just protect myself. I'll start shooting when I think I'm in danger, which would be shorter ranges and prob running bear. I'll get rifle sights for the barrel for accuracy. I'm going to make a post on the rifle pages about rifles for big bear (cause I'm not 100% decided yet) but please feel free to fill me in here. Ultimately I want to be safe. That's the most important thing.
That guy with the coke that 7mm mentioned wasn't in trouble but the same situation with the bear eating your food or destroying your camp in the middle of a one month river trip might be tricky.

[earlthegoat2]

It is common practice in bear country to hunt with a bear rifle irregardless of the game being pursued. True, a 308 may not be up to the task. A 300 WinMag may be though. As well as anything bigger than that. I am a proponent of not carrying two heavy guns. One is plenty and if it works for the game animal and defense all the better.

Onto slugs now though, I would honestly load my own. There really isnt any other viable choice. All the sabots are made for light skinned game. Most of the foster styles are too soft or not enough penetration. The Brennekes are good I have heard and these might be an exception. If you lathed down some solid copper rod to barrel diamter to .72-.70 inches and loaded it into a standard wad for 1 1/4 oz shot and gave the slug a nasty point or perfectly radiused round nose you would have a penetration monster. I have never done this but I have loaded my own slugs before and the theory is sound.

[camoman33935]

I'm surprised that nobodys suggested a 45/70 levergun

[earlthegoat2]

3 posts up there camoman

[camoman33935]

sorry bout that.....must have skipped over that part by accident :o

[Readyrod]

Hey OregonJohnny, (or anyone else) can you tell me more about the Marine 870? I was thinking about the 870 Express Deer with a smooth bore but since I want to bring it hiking and on river trips I was thinking it might get wet and dirty. Maybe a marine shotgun would be better. I imagine the shine to the gun would rule it out for hunting though. Does it need any special care. Is it really a lot more weather resistant? How about the Mossberg Mariner?

[jgh4445]

If I was going to take a .308 for sure and needed a 12 ga. too, I'd think Drilling!

[OregonJohnny]

Readyrod,

The finish on the 870 Marine is not shiny. It isn't exactly a dull matte finish, but it isn't what I'd call shiny or reflective. I think that the 870 Marine and the Mossberg Mariner along with other "marinecoat" shotguns were designed for use in salty corrosive coastal environments. The added benefit of the finish on the 870 Marine is that the coating seems to work as a natural lubricant. The bolt is coated as well and it's very slippery while working inside the chamber, even when it's bone dry. This shotgun may be overkill if you don't plan on ever using it within 50 miles of salt water, but it sure is nice looking even if you don't! Mine is primarily a home defense gun loaded with 6 rounds of 00. But since I'll have it forever, and do a lot of shooting near the coast of Oregon, I figured I would pay the extra for the Marine.

[RMc]

If a pump 12 ga is what you want get a rifled barrel for it. You then can use the hardcast, heat-treated (30+BHN) full bore slugs. They are far superior to swaged lead slugs or sabot rounds in what you need most - penetration!

RMc

[Readyrod]

To RMc, I'm trying to stay away from a rifled barrel if I can, but I'll get one if I have to.
To OregonJohnny, I will most prob be living on Vancouver Island so I'll definitely be near the water. Plus I like the water. So it's a good chance I'll have some kind of boat. Plus, unfortunately, as I get older I'm getting worse about maintenance. Maybe a marine gun is a good idea. Can I use it for hunting bird with the short barrel? Also with the handgun restrictions in Canada it's prob better to have a shotgun for hd.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

some years back a fellow gave me some 12ga 3" Mag slugs as he sold his shotty to get a pistol for his wife.
I was fooling around one day and shot one endwise into one of the old concrete blocks, not a new cinder or 'laylight' block.
the slug went through the end hit the middle double web cracking it good but not penetrating. it knocked the block off the stump I set it on.
fairly impressive. that would surely do some damage to a brown bear's boiler room.

[lifebythehorns]

"Well, lets see RC, how are they superior. The 12 gauge Core-Lokt Ultra sabot bullet is a .58 caliber, 385 grain HP semi-spitzer. The catalog MV is 1900 fps and the 100 yard velocity is 1648 fps. The ME is given as 3086 ft. lbs. and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 2325 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +1.8" at 50 yards, +2.4" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

Got the picture now"

hahaha this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If you did any research you would know that velocity and ME mean squat in real world applications dealing with penitration. Weight and sheer mass is what keeps that projectile going AFTER initial impact. Going on your thinking a ruger .204 is the best bear gun, its faster and shoots straiter than any of these mentioned. Ill take the heavy lead slug over some cheesy sleeved deer bullet anyday. And who cares about trajectory at 100 yards?!?!?!? If that bear is that far away from you when you shoot it in "self defense" your commiting a crime!

[kmrcstintn]

as far as finish, I think that most 'marine' shotguns are going to have extended mags and smoothbore barrels which negates the ability to just buy factory or aftermarket barrels and perform a swap...basically you got a defensive shotgun without the ability to be used as a platform for multiple purposes (eg: interchangable field barrel, dedicated slug barrel, shortened barrel with sights to hunt turkey; et al)

if you can take care of a blued finish with normal length mag tube which allows addition of multiple barrels later on, then I suggest a 12 ga Remington 870 Express; if you want the ability to use a shorter barrel with the option of interchangable chokes, then look at their 20" barrel w/ open sights; you can use a rifled choke to throw heavy sabot slugs short distances; you can get an improved cylinder choke for rifles slugs or Brenneke hardened slugs & have a slight tightening of buckshot for use as a home defense weapon; you can use an XXfull choke for turkey blasting;

if you want to use a dedicated slug barrel for hunting, then get a cantilever mount barrel, add a scope, use your favority sabot slug ammo and big critters within 100 - 125 yards stock your freezer; if you want to bird hunt later on, then add a field barrel with interchangable chokes

*** I'm doing something similar, but with a Mossberg 500 platform, but their 'short' barrels aren't very short at 24" length (exception is their security barrels at 18.5" but you get a bead sightand cylinder bore ~~no tightining of pattern); I got a combo with a 28" field barrel and a dedicated rifled barrel w/ cantilever mount for shooting sabot slugs; as I get more adept in hunting, I might add their .50 caliber muzzleloader barrel; I already plan on getting a short security barrel for home defense***

[oletymer]

Ha Ha Lifebythehorns it is obvious you don't know squat about controlled expansion and energy transfer.

[OregonJohnny]

Readyrod: "To OregonJohnny, I will most prob be living on Vancouver Island so I'll definitely be near the water. Plus I like the water. So it's a good chance I'll have some kind of boat. Plus, unfortunately, as I get older I'm getting worse about maintenance. Maybe a marine gun is a good idea. Can I use it for hunting bird with the short barrel? Also with the handgun restrictions in Canada it's prob better to have a shotgun for hd."

Readyrod,

It sounds like the 870 Marine would be a good choice for you. The Remington 870 is about as simple as it gets as far as maintenance, and with the finish of the Marine, it gets even easier. The 18.5" barrel is not ideal for bird hunting. It would work in a survival situation, but probably only at very close ranges. Plus the short barrel is a not threaded for chokes, so it's very limited. I believe the 870 Marine's main purposes are portability and putting buckshot and rifled slugs into large targets at close range in wet coastal environments with little maintenance.

The barrel can be easily swapped out with another 870 Express barrel. I think for general purpose bird hunting and clay pigeon games, a 28" barrel with 3 or 4 different chokes would be ideal (around $175 for Remington brand barrels). For things like pheasant hunting in South Dakota, there is no restriction as to the number of rounds held in your magazine tube, so this setup would probably be pretty fun. For waterfowl hunting, along with a longer barrel, you'll want to install the plastic plug that comes with the shotgun to limit your magazine capacity to 2 shells.

Carefully check Canadian regulations on guns aboard your boat. I know it's impossible for an American to keep a gun aboard while in Canadian waters, unless you are transporting the firearm on your way to an official hunt. Also, make sure a shotgun with 6 rounds in the magazine is legal there.

The 870 is a fantastic shotgun and the Marine version is a great option if you're living coast-side. Good luck!

[Readyrod]

Thanks OregonJohnny. That's great information. It will make my decision easier. Six shells in a pump action shotgun is ok in Canada, but a barrel that is shorter than 18.5" inches is not. The Remington website says that the marine 870 is 18" so I may have to go for the Mossberg as they say it is 18.5", even tho I kind of prefer the Remington. I don't know about marine regulations so I'll need to check. Thanks again.

[Mainsail]

Make sure the first shell is a dragon's breath, the bear will leave a smoke trail as it runs away.

[OregonJohnny]

I don't know why Remington would list it as 18", and in some promotional pictures of it, the barrel looks 1/2" shorter than the magazine tube. But I can assure you, my barrel is perfectly flush with the mag tube and measures in at exactly 18.5".

[CSA 357]

I have a old mod 12 winchester that shoots 1 oz winchester slugs realy good, its cut down to 24 inches, i have taken deer with it, it holds 7 shells, i wouldnt want to have to but i would use it on a bear if i had too, 1 oz slugs penatrate more than a 44 mag , i know this from shooting 1/4 steel plates, the 44 mag wont even make a blimish on it! The 1 oz slug wont go threw it, but it will bend the hell out of it! I would love to be were there are big bears, i have read they can be hard to stop, i guess the only danger here in north alabama woods would be man, csa

[Readyrod]

Remington marine, 18.5" barrel, sweet!!!!! I also like the 870 express deer with the smooth bore as it has rifle sights and is cheaper. Thing is the marine magnum is better for weather and it looks cool.

[-v-]

One item I'd like to bring up is either a semi-auto shotgun or an over/under. Rational being, when a hungry bear is wanting to make you his next snack, you want as few things to have to fiddle with as possible. A pump-action is liable to be short-stroked, whereas an over/under or a semi-auto would be a point and shoot.

Perhaps something like a Saiga 12 or a Rem 1100 would suit your needs well, but since this will be up in Canada, your mileage may vary. Sure they are heavier and require more upkeep, but they are relativley simpler to operate, and the action does help to soak up some of the impulse energy making followups a little easier.

As for ammo selection 1 3/8th oz magnum slugs. 3" are good, 3.5" magnums are even better. Are they going to absolutely positively suck shooting? Hell yes. But, it will take a lot to stop a charging grizzly in its tracks in one shot, and one shot may be all that you will have time to fire.

With that, Brenneke makes their 3" 1 3/8th oz "black magic" magnum slugs for this. ~660gr at ~1500fps is nothing to scoff at, and would probably do a good job of "breaking" a bear in one or two shots. Hopefully before the gun breaks you :p!

[Hollywood Marine]

It once took me four shots with a .444 Marlin to stop a brownie. They are really hard to stop! That said, the above post recommending 3" magnum slugs gets my vote too.

[-v-]

One other thing I was thinking, since this is Canada we're talking about, I seem to recall that it is OK to own something like a 14.7mm PTRS vintage WW2 anti-tank rifle and ammo. If you can get your hands on one, I think that might also make a formidable anti-bear gun. If said cartridge could pierce 30mm of steel armor at 500 meters, I think the results on flesh should be equally if not more impressive.

[Readyrod]

I'm trying to keep the collection down to as few guns as possible to start. I'm thinking mini 14, (or maybe bolt action .223) .308 bolt action, and 12 gauge pump action as my basic setup. The pump action is because of restrictions on semi auto magazines in Canada. The consensus seems that the .308 isn't good enough for big bear protection so that's why I was wondering if the shotgun would do the job. I get the idea it will, especially if I choose the right ammo, like the Brenneke slugs. As CSA 357 says, if it can bend the h*** out of 1/4" steel plate it's gotta hurt a bear. I hope.
Hey OregonJohnny I'm going to ask the weather coating question on another post cause I want to ask some other stuff too. Thanks for the info.

[Rourke]

I would feel pretty secure carrying a 12 gauge.

As stated earlier - 3" shells would be recommended.

Take care all - Rourke

[JImbothefiveth]

You might want to look at some of these slugs. http://www.dixieslugs.com (keep in mind I have no bear hunting experiance, I just know some of these are intended for dagnerous game.

[Readyrod]

Those are some pretty kick ass looking slugs.

[tango2echo]

Ok,...let me chime in here. I was a bear and big game guide in four Canadian provences, and I have guided in the lower 48 in a number of states. That being said, one of my favorite guns for bear country was/is a short barrelled Mossberg 835 12ga 3.5" with an extended mag tube. Loaded with 12ga 3.5" 1oz slugs I can tell you it will kill a 500# wounded black bear right f-ing there! That gun has saved my life a few times, and IMHO is superior to any handgun you can carry. However, if your intent is to hunt up north, then I would suggest something of the .338 Win Mag size or larger. The shotgun is a last ditch defense gun, not a hunting tool.

T2E

[Readyrod]

Tango2echo, thank you. You said exactly what I wanted to know. I don't really want to hunt them, I want defense. I'm going to ask a big round hunting question later. Please feel free to chime in then too. Thanks again.

[Fishman777]

I've seen a couple of recommendations that are not actually legal in Canada.

Handguns are probably not going to be a legal option, nor are the higher capacity shotguns. I believe 4+1 is legal in a shotgun or rifle, but nothing more.

[tango2echo]

Regulations on capacity vary widely from provence to provence and even from area to area. You CAN own a pistol in Canada with the right paperwork.

T2E

[PJR]

Shotgun capacity rules in Canada are nationwide. 5 rounds in the magazine for a semi-auto, unlimited in a pump. Barrel length limited to 18.5 in a semi but a pump can be shorter IF the barrel isn't cut and came that way from the factory. 14" pump guns are very popular up here and treated no differently than any other shotgun.

There is a 2+1 limit for migratory bird hunting which is also nationwide. There are some capacity differences in hunting regs from province to provice for shotgun-only deer hunting.

An Authorization to Carry a handgun in Canada is very difficult to obtain even for wilderness carry.

[tango2echo]

Have you ever tried to obtain a handgun in Canada? The 1996 Firearms Act made it harder but not impossible. My Mother in Law, a school teacher, had little difficulty obtaining a 9mm Glock for "personal protection and target practice." She lives in downtown Ottawa near the Rideau canal and Parliement.

Do you understand that the Authorization to CARRY is different from the ability to OWN? Many people in Canada OWN handguns, but very few may CARRY them on their person.

You are correct on shotgun capacity laws. Pumps are unlimited to the best of my knowledge in all provences. You will find that Parliment has passed many gun laws since 1996 that have not been applied in all provences....Consult you local bi-law office or RCMP for clarification. In parts of Ontario it is still a maximum capacity of 10rds,....even though "provential law" states 5 rds for autos and higher for pumps. I had no problem obtaining and using a magazine extension for the 835 that brought maximum capacity to 8 2.75" shells when I was in Kapuskasing. There was a recent documentary on APTV about whale/seal hunting. If you watch it you will see that nearly every person has a hi-cap mag in a mini14 or mini30, or a shotgun with a tube.

If you do your homework you will find where some of the Aboriginal groups, the provence of Alberta (back in 1996 and again in 2001), and the Nunavut peoples have all recently challenged the Canadian Supreme court of the right of Parliement to inact gun laws.

In many of the rural areas of Northern Canada you will find few gun laws ACTUALLY exist.(i.e. are inforced) I carried a .44mag SRH openly for years without a permit and was only once asked about it by a RCMP officer. He asked if I had a permit. I said "no, I am a bear guide". He said, "oh, eh...ye ever had to used dat ting?"

You are correct on 2+1 for capacity for migratory bird hunting. That is pretty much anywhere in Canada or the USA.

You are correct on the many differences in provence to provence regs for shotgun only deer hunting, and it varies even more in how it is enforced and by whom.

In a nutshell, this is just like any other gun law. You have to double and triple check your facts and then make sure they apply in your specific area, and your intended operation.

So, back to the original poster, you should have little trouble obtaining a magazine tube extension for a PUMP shotgun, if you so choose, for bear protection.

T2E

[tango2echo]

Sorry, I kind of went off on a tangent there. It just erks me when people start taking about what they "believe" a law to be when they have little actual experience in that area.

My apologies to the original poster and the moderator.

T2E

[PJR]

In many of the rural areas of Northern Canada you will find few gun laws ACTUALLY exist.(i.e. are inforced) I carried a .44mag SRH openly for years without a permit and was only once asked about it by a RCMP officer. He asked if I had a permit. I said "no, I am a bear guide". He said, "oh, eh...ye ever had to used dat ting?"
This is BS. The laws exist coast to coast to coast. To even imply that our American friends could bring a restricted firearm into Canada and carry it is irresponsible. If caught it's potentially a three-year mandatory minimum no matter where you are in the country.

In parts of Ontario it is still a maximum capacity of 10rds,....even though "provential law" states 5 rds for autos and higher for pumps. I had no problem obtaining and using a magazine extension for the 835 that brought maximum capacity to 8 2.75" shells when I was in Kapuskasing.
More BS. There is not now nor has there even been a magazine limit of ten rounds in Ontario or anywhere else in Canada for a pump gun. That's the reason you had no problem with your Mossberg. It's a pump gun.

Anyone coming to Canada would be seriously well advised to ignore the advice that is posted by tango2echo.

For more information here are some links:

Canadian Firearms Act (including regulations pertaining to carry)
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showtdm/cs/F-11.6///en?noCookie

Canadian Firearms Centre
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/default_e.asp

Canadian Firearms Centre Information for Visitors
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/non-residents/default_e.asp

Info on the Tackling Violent Crime Act (contains mandatory sentences for illegal firearms possession.)
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/news-nouv/nr-cp/2008/doc_32273.html

[cameron.personal]

You put the words "bear" and "shotgun" in the same thread, you are asking for trouble!

[Readyrod]

When I was working up north one summer a forestry guy showed me his magnum revolver and we shot off a few rounds. He told me that he didn't openly carry it as it was illegal. But he did carry it. I don't know if it was common practice but I imagine that in a small community up north a local can get away with a lot more than you can in other places. Specially as you are really on your own in some areas. It's vast open territory up there and there is a lot of game.
On the other hand I also knew a border guard once and he said that they really loved busting people who tried to cross the border with handguns, so I really wouldn't try it.
I did read a story once about an American who was RVing on the Canadian side of the Alaska highway who was attacked by a guy with a shotgun. He shot back with his shotgun and killed him. The paper said that they didn't even lay charges. Moral is bring a shotgun and don't mess with the border guards.
Back on topic, I went to the local zoo (Ueno zoo in Tokyo. It sure ain't San Diego.) and had a look at the bears. The Hokkaido brown bears were big. Massive heads. If one was coming for me it would be hard to hit any other part without the head getting in the way. I'm wondering if a head shot with a 12 gauge would stop one or only give it a headache. The polar bears were smaller and had small heads. They looked a lot more menacing though.

[colemanw]

12g is just fine... typically there are standard 2 3/4" shells and 3"Magnum. The 3" kicks very hard and may be overkill. The real problem with 3" shells is that once they are fired the front lip of the plastic case may be a hair too long to eject from the receiver (as i found out on my 500As) this will cause a nasty jam! test your setup! good luck

[Cosmoline]

Just use hardcast slugs, not soft deer slugs and not buckshot. Brenneke makes great ones. I'm pretty sure they're totally legal in Canada and I know AK troopers use them. I carried a Mossberg 500 with those slugs and a slug barrel for years on fishing trips here. It kicked like a mule but hit like one too. There's no question these will stop and kill a bear with as much reliability as anything this side of a mountain howitzer. There's always a chance they won't stop it in time, but nothing else you could carry would do better. Rifles give you longer range, which isn't a factor in DLP shootings.

Do not fall into the trap of using buckshot to help hit. The spread at these ranges is minimal and buckshot simply does not have the penetration or bone-breaking ability you need.

[FLNT4EVR]

BIG BEAR DEFENCE! Once again the topic comes up.In a defence situation you are talking about ranges measured in feet not yards.A12ga smooth bore pump gun loaded with slugs,should be your weapon of choice.You want the bear down and dead right where he stands ,and this gives you the power to do it.