[Karate]

I just got a Sig 220...it is the gun that I have always wanted...I am considering carring it...but it is a pretty good size gun (when you consider that I have been carring either a CZ PCR or a Glock 27 for the last year or so) and it got me to thinking (not always a good thing)...How many of you carry a gun this size and how do you carry (Shoulder holster,OWB,IWB Crossdraw, Strongside etc) Just curious before I attempt it my self I was wanting advice from you guys...I am not a big fan of IWB carry...also please include the brand of holster that you use...I notice from a thread on the Sig Forum that a large portion of those guys choose High Noon holster.

[C.R.Sam]

Carried 1911 for years.
OWB high n tight at either 4 or 8 oclock....or shoulder.

Partner carries Sig 220 IWB at 4 oclock. Galco modified.

Sam

[Mike Irwin]

Only if you're fighting night-time raids by Hottentots...

As for your gun, it's not really the size that matters.

What matters is how much you're willing to make accommodations for the size of your gun.

Some people carry full-sized semi-autos and revolvers very comfortably all the time.

Other's don't, or can't.

[Ky Larry]

I carry a fullsize Kimber .45ACP in an IWB Gould and Goodrich holster at 4 oclock. If you can carry the Sig comfortably,fine. However I wouldn't hesitate to CCW your other 2 pistols either. They are both fine choices.
Shoot well and often.

[Tamara]

Size matters, in that it's generally easier to shoot a full-size pistol well. Size also matters in that it's generally harder to conceal a full-size pistol well.

Many folks find full-size single-stack guns like the 1911 or P-220 to be a good compromise. They're relatively flat, which is important, and tote easily IWB, so the barrel length doesn't really detract from their concealability. I carry a full-size 1911 IWB at the 4 o'clock position.

[LordOfTheRing]

I carry my P220 on me, in an uncle-mike's kydex OWB paddle holster. I don't notice any weight at all hardly. Before I got the sig, I was carrying a Glock 22, also in an UM kydex paddle holster. Before that it was a service model XD 9mm in an UM kydex paddle holster. (notice a trend here?)

There's 2 important things to keep in mind when packing a full size gun:

a good stiff leather belt
a good holster

those two things can make your gun feel like a feather, or like a brick.

Personally, I don't think you've gotta blow wads and wads of cash on those two items. The kydex UM's holsters sell for around $20 and really take a beating.

I wear a thick basketweave uniform trouser belt right now (got it at the uniform shop when I picked up my new uniforms. Does double duty as a work/every day wear belt. I'm gonna get antoher so I can have dedicated belts)

The trouser belt cost me a whopping $15 and is twice as good as any belt you'll find for comparable price. The leather is stiffer and thicker than most of the crap on retail store shelves, and you can choose between plain leather, basketweave, high gloss, matte....or brown if that floats your boat :)

$35 on top of the gun ain't a bad deal for a good carry rig.

My style of dress lends itself well to carrying like this. I wear BDU's almost exclusively when not at work (they're comfy and I like the cargo pockets) so I put my mag-carrier in the right thigh cargo pocket. The holster goes on the hip @ 3:00. (Have tried 4, but it messes up my draw. I'm used to drawing from 3, using straight drop. I don't like canted holsters)

I wear polo shirts or button down shirts, dark solids or prints. With the gun on my side, and the shirt covering it, you can't tell it's there unless I bend over. The Sig 220 conceals better for me than the Glock did (it's thinner than the Glock)

Now that the weather is getting cooler, heavier clothing can be worn, which really opens up even more avenues for carrying.

[cool45auto]

What matters is how much you're willing to make accommodations for the size of your gun.
Exactly. I'm willing to do a lot to carry my Beretta daily.

[KMKeller]

I carry a P220ST. It's nice and slender and the weight is handled well by a good holster and belt combo.

[1911Tuner]

...are for outdoorsmen packing a heavy revolver under a cold-weather
jumpsuit or large coat and people who don't understand concealed carry. For one thing, it's not comfortable for 8-10 hours a day...The other thing is that any rookie cop will "make" you in about 3 seconds flat.

Just a little food for thought.
Cheers!
Tuner

[Edward429451]

I carry a full size 1911 IWB with no problems. I use a Ted Blocker 'LFI rig'

My friend carries a P220 in a Galco SOB holster, not the most comfortable while sitting but it do come out fast baggy jacket mandatory.

Good stiff belt and good holster takes a lot of the pita out of it.

[El Tejon]

Big guns help stop fights, save lives.

Government model 1911 in Milt Sparks Executive Companion IWB.

Good holster AND good belt.

[kalibear45]

It would be utterly useless if you ended up shooting blanks :D

[Waste of Money]

Nice pick-up! I have no probs going IWB but obviously YMMV.

Summer carry is a P-239 in a Milt Sparks VM-II

Winter time is for my P-220 in a Milt Sparks VM-II

Good belt and you'll be fine with any quality holster.

Slim is in when it comes to concealability and comfort. Length and height can be compensated for.

[marvl]

So, any of you guys ever carry at the 12 o'clock position? :D

[Edward429451]

So, any of you guys ever carry at the 12 o'clock position?

No, but I've carried at about 10 to 1030 with a Galco crossdraw, wintertime of course. No sweat, open top C&L with no strap. I must trust JMB, huh?:p

[Rogelio]

When I am not carrying my Glock 25 (No holster, I use Israeli techniques) I mostly carry a Ranger revolver 4" (ventilated barrel). Concealing is nothing to suffer from as long as you take your time to choose the appropiate clothing (I can´t carry and wear a spandex shirt- I am a 29 waist and go to the gym every day-). Choose the biggest gun you can carry, and then buy some shirts, they cover up really nice.

By the way, how do I use a glock holster to cary in the small of my back? can I do that?I ask because that israeli thing is great but not so great when you carry for 8 hours a day...Lots of uncle Mikés holsters here in Peru, but the glock holster is really nice looking...

[mummac]

So, any of you guys ever carry at the 12 o'clock position?

That is the only place I have been able to carry. My gut makes it hard for me to put a pistol anywhere else and not print. I'm new at it though, so I'm looking around for alternatives. I live in FL and mostly wear shorts and a t-shirt or button-up shirt. I really wish I could find a way to CCW with Dockers and a tucked-in shirt.

[Karate]

When I am not carrying my Glock 25 (No holster, I use Israeli techniques

What is Israeli Techniques?

[Mike Irwin]

"Shoulder Holsters...
...are for outdoorsmen packing a heavy revolver under a cold-weather
jumpsuit or large coat and people who don't understand concealed carry. For one thing, it's not comfortable for 8-10 hours a day...The other thing is that any rookie cop will "make" you in about 3 seconds flat. "

With all due respect, that's a load of bull:cuss:.


I've carried a handgun for nearly 20 years now, much of it in a shoulder holster.

Several of my friends are long-time police officers, well out of the rookie phase. They routinely pull back my coat or pat me down to see if I'm carrying a gun in a shoulder holster because they can't tell by looking at me.

As often as not I won't be wearing a shoulder holster, I'll be carrying a .38 in a pocket holster. One officer has missed that several times running now. He's going to be kind of shocked when I finally tell him.

Several days ago as I was walking my dogs an officer I'm passingly familiar with (via my Homeowner's Association) stopped to talk to me. We chatted for about 15 minutes -- the whole time I was wearing a 2.5" Model 19 in a shoulder holster. He never said boo, never gave me a once over, and never suspected that I had a magnum revolver in a shoulder holster under my a THIN flannel lined nylon windbreaker. Certainly NOT a heavy coat.

I've also carried guns as large and heavy as a P7M13 or a 4" Model 19 for well over 12 hours at a clip, with NO fatigue problems.

If you get a cheap :cuss: shoulder holster, with narrow little leather or worse, nylon, shoulder straps, you're going to be uncomfortable in short order as the straps begin to cut into your shoulders.

Proper selection of a shoulder holster is critical to long-term comfort and wearability. If you're too cheap to pay for a good holster, you get what you deserve.

Understand the concept behind how to select, and use, a shoulder holster before you opine on them, please.

[1911Tuner]

Well Mike...You're the exception. Most veteran cops that I know and knew
laugh at shoulder holsters because they're easy to spot. Of course, one
rule doesn't apply to all. Some body types lend themselves well to
shoulder-holster carry...Some don't.

Cheers!
Tuner

[El Tejon]

Mike and 1911 are right.:D However you want to do it, get good gear.

Carried a G23 in a Ted Blocker Lifeline for a while. Easy for me to carry, however I have 13" of drop.:)

[sm]

Full size 1911, IWB @ 4 o'clock
Sometimes high and tight OWB

Been known to carry another full size @ 8 o'clock IWB or OWB. Because I can and,... and just how does one follow a poster with 13" of drop...I ain't going there.:D

[agtman]

10mm S&W 1076 ...


4.25" barrel, 9+1 capacity, with the same grip dimensions as the 5" 1026/1006 models. It's carried somewhat more than my Glock 20, at least in the cooler weather. The 1076 is heavier than a Sig 220 but it lays flatter IWB because it's thinner in the slide area (I know 'cause I had a 220).

Carry modes? I've used all 3 with the 1076:

- for IWB, I have a Kramer;

- for OWB, it's a good sturdy gun belt w/ either a DeSantis or Galco JAK slide (depends on weather, dress, what I'll be doing, etc.);

- for a shoulder holster, I've tried several, and, unfortunately, I've encountered the same problems others here report: thin, wimpy straps that don't hold the weight of the gun well and feel as though they're cutting into your shoulders after an hour or so; horizontal holsters that print from behind WAY too much; and weight-distribution problems on the "off-side" (mag-side) causing the holstered gun to "float" up, down and around your frame when you move at any appreciable gait.

How Det. Crockett carried that Bren Ten so discreetly in the South Florida heat, I'll never know. :D

Presently I'm testing out a High Noon shoulder rig that seems better than some others. If anyone has any experience with Bianchi's X-15 carrying a large autoloader (the X-15 uses a vertical holster, IIRC), I'd appreciate hearing your evaluation. Thanks. :)

[1911Tuner]

Let's have a look at the real-world and shoulder rigs against say...a serious
street fighter armed with a knife.

You are at a disadvantage with a shoulder rig because:
A sharp cop will spot it like right now. Do not kid yourself.
A streetwise thug will too, and if he is an experienced street fighter,
he will not let you get to your gun. He is also not at all intimidated by its
presense because he knows about a dozen ways to take it away from you.

If you try to negate the disadvantage by going for the gun early on, you
are brandishing, and thus subject to the penalties for that act. You are only
justified in pulling the gun when the attack is iminent. In most cases,
iminent means that it has already begun. What little warning that you get will
be measured in seconds, and any action on your part will be a reaction.
He has already made up his mind, while you have to depend on your
reaction time to counter his move.

Shooting situations almost never begin with guns drawn ala Dodge City
at high noon, but rather almost always begin with some sort of close
quarters confrontation. When your antagonist sees you reach under your coat, he will either break your arm or cut it off below the elbow. Even if he doesn't see it in time, he has a much better chance to block your draw from a shoulder rig because the motion is in plain view, and you have to sweep the gun across your body in order to bring it to bear on him. In short, he simply has more time. Time isn't a luxury that you can afford. The winner or loser is usually determined within 10 seconds from whistle to dead.

With a strong-side carry, you can take a step backward and make a quarter turn, fend off the attack with your weak hand, and grab your gun. The move is shielded from his view by your body and it's also below his line of sight. If you are fast enough to stop him from putting your intestines on the ground or cutting your brachial artery, you can stop the attack. If not, you can probably still get him before you go down, and the two of you can argue over who won or lost on the way to the ER.

Just my 2% of a dollar. YMMV

Cheers!
Tuner

[Hypnogator]

I'll have to throw in with Mike on this one. I routinely carried my issue S&W M-10 in an upside-down shoulder rig, with cuffs and spare ammo on the right side for better than a year in Stuttgart, Germany, when I was evidence custodian. Never got made by some rather sharp German Police. Never had somebody with a knife use my guts for garters, either. :D

Don't you just love how all of the amateur know-it-alls venture their expert opinions based on what-if scenarios they read in the gun/martial arts rags? :rolleyes:

[1911Tuner]

Amateur? Amateur....:scrutiny:

[JNewell]

SIG P220 and P226 in Milt Sparks Versa-Max II (IWB). Comfortable, secure and fast. You need a good belt -- I use a reinforced Galco, ymmv. Buy your pants with a couple of inches extra and you will probably find that you can carry a large gun with comfort and discretion. If you carry IWB, the part that matters is the butt of the pistol, and it also matters how closely the holster keeps it to your body.

[Mike Irwin]

Good God...

Yep, you put a gun in a shoulder holster, and you IMMEDIATELY have a sign over your head that blinks in red neon GUN! GUN! GUN! so that every cop in the world knows where to find it.

But you put that same gun in any other kind of holster and it immediately becomes so invisible that you'll never be discovered.

BULL:cuss:

A large part of concealing a handgun with ANY type of holster is PICKING THE PROPER CLOTHING that will cover it.

I'm not certain where the hell these notions come up, but once again, I've YET to have any of my police officer friends spot the fact that I'm carrying a gun in a shoulder holster.

As for the concept of an "experienced street fighter" where are we living, Manila? Sparring with the Fujien on a regular basis?

And carrying a gun in a shoulder holster means that you CAN'T take a step backwards? Since when did a shoulder holster spike your feet to the ground in a self-defense situation?

"When your antagonist sees you reach under your coat, he will either break your arm or cut it off below the elbow."

And he won't do the same thing if you reach under your coat for an IWB, SOB, or hip holster? What, one of those holsters immediately throws up a protective force field around you? Let me know where to get one.

Yow.

[1911Tuner]

Lordy! I seem to have tourched a couple of nerves here.

No, there won't be any neon sign or force field...and yes...clothing
is the key for a successful hide, but a shoulder rig is just much
easier to make. I'll repeat what I already said. The cops that
I've known over the years don't think much of them. A good belt rig
is just easier to hide, also assuming good clothing.

I guess that because hypno has been lucky with his that everybody
will. And because he's never been under a knife attack by a real knife
man... that everybody will be that lucky. (No, I don't mean the
idiot who pulls a knife and demands your money. Hint...If
he let you see the knife a second before moving in, he's not
a knife man)

I've tried shoulder rigs. I find that if I carry a gun with any size
to it causes me to list to port by the end of a long day...My
ex-wife's older son noticed it first. "Why are you standing funny"?
He was 10. They also cause me to unconciously hunch my
shoulder, causing muscle spasms and incidentally, is one of
the signs that you're "walkin heavy"...or so I'm told.

Anyway..I said that it was just my nickel's worth, and your results may
vary...or am I not supposed to give an opinion here?

Be of good cheer and mindful of your muzzle...

[matsaleh]

You are at a disadvantage with a shoulder rig because: A sharp cop will spot it like right now.


I've only been carrying since May, so I will stipulate I have much to learn. However, I've successfully experimented with carrying my S&W 6906 (some would call it a compact, but it's a double-stack) in an Uncle Mike's belly band in the same orientation you would carry with a shoulder rig (under left arm, grip up, butt forward). Wearing a tight fitting tank-top type undershirt underneath the band is essential for comfort.

I wear large T-shirts untucked or casual button-down shirts tucked or untucked and have never been made. I carry at work daily amongst my friends who know me well, know I carry, but don't know I carry at work. I asked one friend who also carries if he could make me and he could not.

Of course, this is not a scientific test, but it's all I have at the moment.

A streetwise thug will too, and if he is an experienced street fighter, he will not let you get to your gun.

I'm sure there are many cases where this is true. But my CCW trainer (20yr LEO vet and Nam vet) impressed upon me the need to keep the perp beyond 21' whenever possible. In other words, how did he get close enough to disarm me? Was I not alert enough? Was I confrontational or let myself be drawn in by getting angry? Did I not try to remove myself from the scene? Of course, every case is different, but using my head and other skills is even more important than a fast draw.

If you try to negate the disadvantage by going for the gun early on, you are brandishing, and thus subject to the penalties for that act.

In TX, it is not brandishing to grip your holstered gun in the ready to draw position. If I display my gun to a would be attacker, but point it towards the ground in a ready position, that is brandishing, but not considered deadly force. When I point it at him, it is deadly force. But, if I think I am in a situation that warrants deadly force, and have done everything I am supposed to, then it's perfectly legal and proper to do whatever I need to in order to survive.

If it turns out that the alleged threat is innocent and it is a simple misunderstanding, he has several opportunities to back down before I get to the deadly force point.

Of course, other states are more restrictive than TX and sometimes protect the villan rather than the victim.

Anyway, I would rather be punished for brandishing than have my widow deal with my estate. And I would rather be armed than not, so if it takes a shoulder rig or belly band to do it, so be it.

Stay safe.

[Tamara]

And he won't do the same thing if you reach under your coat for an IWB, SOB, or hip holster? What, one of those holsters immediately throws up a protective force field around you? Let me know where to get one.

No, but it's a simple fact that one of the weaknesses of a shoulder holster (and a crossdraw belt rig, too, BTW) is that you have to reach across your front with your strong-side hand to draw the weapon, unlike a strong-side rig where your arm moves back and away from the opponent to acquire the weapon. If you're squared up with somebody at bad-breath range, this is a disadvantage. A concomitant disadvantage is that they make the weapon as accessible to the hypothetical BG as it is to you, unlike a typical strong-side rig behind the point of the right hip, which places your body between your gun and the other guy, and points the butt away from him as well.

On the other hand, a shoulder rig, crossdraw, or ankle holster is much easier to draw from if you are seated at a desk or in a car, or on your back from being knocked down. They all have their strengths and weaknesses...

(Insert obligatory comment about: "Pick one that works for you and train, train, train..." ;) )

[1911Tuner]

Mat, I can appreciate the 21 foot rules of engagement, and in an
ideal world, it works well. In the real world, we would have to
keep EVERYbody at that distance, which would either put us
squarely in the squirrel category, or we would have to stay
at home.

How many potential attackers are going to notify you that they
are going to attack before they cross the Line Of Departure?
I'll state once more...A real knife man isn't going to let you
know it's coming. You will know that you're under attack
when the blade hits flesh. If you're alert enough to realize that
something is very wrong before you're cut, you will have very
little time to react. Time and distance is on HIS side, not yours,
and you are likely to get cut. Will it be your weak arm that takes
the blade...or your gun arm? If he sees your each under your arm,
guess which arm he'll go for.

Tamara made a very good point that I forgot. The shoulder rig does
make your gun more accessible to a face-on attacker, and if he
knows his business, he'll know it's there.

AGAIN...just my nickel's worth, and food for thought. This won't
mean anything to anybody except the young duffer with a new CCW
who thinks that a shoulder rig would be cool and puts it on without
knowing all the drawbacks as to required clothing and tactical
disadvantages.

Cheers all
Tuner

Oh yeah...Being a Vietnam Vet doesn't automatically qualify a man
as a tactical weapons expert. I'm a vet myself.

[Ky Larry]

Some very interesting thoughts on the subject of different carry methods.I would be interested in hearing from LEO's and others who have had to use their weapons in the real world.

[Hypnogator]

I would be interested in hearing from LEO's and others who have had to use their weapons in the real world.
You have, Larry. Over 20 years of Federal law enforcement experience, plus now over eight years of law enforcement training experience, specifically in gunfighting tactics and judgmental shooting.

I did not mean to come off quite so critically of 1911 Tuner, but much of what he says applies no matter how you carry. And yes, both he and Tamara are right in that under most circumstances, strong-side carry is vastly preferable to cross-draw carry. It's just that it isn't always practical to carry in the best manner. In point of fact, the closest I ever came to shooting a perp was when I was carrying in my shoulder rig. Still had time to convince him he really didn't want to stick that Buck knife into my partner. When he dropped it, I realized I had pulled the trigger to the extent that the hammer was halfway back. Just a few more ounces.....

Did not mean to ruffle feathers, but the fact that "even rookie cops will spot a shoulder-holster" is just not true.

[1911Tuner]

This thread seems to have taken a different path. Since there's an old
axiom: Them that knows, don't talk, and them that talks, don't know,
I'll PM Hypnogator privately with a response, as I am also not inclined
to give too much personal information on a public internet forum.

I will say that I'm not quite an amateur, and neither am I a stranger
to violence.

Be of good cheer and mindful of your six.

Tuner

[Mike Irwin]

All due respect, Tams, but if you've allowed Bad Man to get within "Bad Breath" distance you've got one hell of a lot more to worry about than whether or not you have a sholder holster or a hip holster.

At that point, you'd better start thinking about using your head.

As a battering ram.

Here's a nifty little advantage to a shoulder holster if someone IS facing you with a knife...

When you cross your body with your draw arm, you're coving your heart zone AND obtaining your weapon at the same time, and you still have one hand/arm/elbow left with with to fight.

If you master the footwork, you can body twist, lead with your weak side in an elbow jab/cross arm thrust while drawing your weapon from a shoulder holster and voila, the muzzle is pointing in the direction where it's going to do the most good (no 90 deg. sweeping arcs need apply) and you're already in a tight mid-body retention position.

"How many potential attackers are going to notify you that they
are going to attack before they cross the Line Of Departure?"

This entire thread makes one other seriously ludicrous assumption...

That no matter what bad man, or even REAL KNIFE MAN, accosts you, he's going to come straight up to you (and what are you doing, just watching him draw closer and closer without attempting to evade?), get 3" away from you (so you can smell his obviously bad breath), and announce "Hi, I'm (insert your personal boogyman ethno-racial name here) and I'm going to be your armed robber tonight."

Well, who knows. Maybe you're going to be acosted by Tigrus of Gaul... He was a knife AND axe man, don't you know.



The only nerve that's been touched here is my revulsion at sweeping statements that don't even pay lip service to taking situational variations into account.



"I would be interested in hearing from LEO's and others who have had to use their weapons in the real world."

What would you like to know?

Although, apparently, because I was using a shoulder holster both times I'm not supposed to be alive...

[Tamara]

When you cross your body with your draw arm, you're coving your heart zone AND obtaining your weapon at the same time, and you still have one hand/arm/elbow left with with to fight.

Footwork...twist...lead...elbow...thrust...

I'm too lazy for all that, Mike, so I only try and remember two words: "Interview" and "stance." ;)

Like I said, though, whatever works for you. I'm pretty sure we're both of us well past our days of believing in the One True Technique and now just happy to be able to remember One Technique, Period. ;) :D

[BluesBear]

The 4" S&W M58 was the issue weapon on my new PD back in 1980. We were allowed to carry any weapon we wanted to on duty provided it; A) was a double action revolver, B) had a bore diameter of at least .410", C) had a barrel of at least 3½". I had been carrying a cut down 3¾" 1917 off duty before that. For Traffic Court I was usually in uniform. For Criminal Court I was often in a suit. On those day I wore a suit I carried either the 1917 or the M58 in a Bianchi X-15. My only complaint was the elastic band that went under the off side armpit. I bought a Don Hume velcro tie down strap and that problem was solved. If I was doing a joint action with the County Police I was also either usually in casual clothes or a suit. I had no problem carrying either N-frame for 10-12 hours.

When my department finally allowed semi-autos for off duty I went to a full size Colt Government in a Jackass shoulder rig with the 2 mags & cuffs on the other side. I often wore the Jackass from "dawn to dusk" or more appropriately from dusk til dawn. I never had any problem with it "printing" and I found it very comfortable. So much, in fact, that I purchased a new one just last year for my Lightweight Commander.

So, if anyone has made me carrying it, no one has said a word and I don't have to worry about flashing when I reach for something on the top shelf of the local Safeway. Even the uniformed officer I was chatting with on line inside the bank day before yesterday didn't seem to notice.

I no longer even own a suit and my idea of a heavy winter coat is a lined nylon tour jacket. Of course I do have to buy my clothes in the big & tall department. Some of y'all skinny guys might have a problem with shoulder holster carry.

So in my not so humble opinion, there's nothing wrong with a shoulder holster IF, and I mean IF it works for you. As for me it works just fine, thank you very much. It's been said over and over again in THR, use what works for you and practice, practice, practice.

Like some others posting here, I don't like to give out too much personal information, but suffice to say I have been to the Circus and I have seen the Elephants. (plural)

Bear