Will We Keep Our Guns?


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Tegun
January 30, 2009, 06:46 PM
Obama And Your Guns

The last time we had a Democrat in the White House the so called Assault Weapons Ban came in to existence. Joe Biden was the architect of the whole idea. At that time President Clinton didnít have the support of a majority in the legislature, like our new Administration has, but they were still able to pass a law that caused inconvenience to some people, created a false sense of security for others and did absolutely nothing to decrease crime.

Today the Speaker of the House , Senate Majority leader and President have strong anti-gun sentiments which means that there is a good chance they will use this opportunity to do all they can to take your guns away.

The only way to fight the impending attack on the rights of gun owners is to be heard loud and clear when it comes time to protest any changes proposed that do anything but make the Second Amendment stronger.

The decision made in the Heller case should not be considered a permanent victory. In the first weeks of this administration we have seen an amazing amount of reversals and abolition of policies made by the Bush administration. There have been neither discussions nor studies done beforehand because the agenda of the Democrats doesnít operate on logic or reason but on emotion and the belief that they know what is right for the American people.

The gun owners in this country are generally polite and reasonable people and have been very quiet in the eye of the public mainly because of media bias. In order to be heard we need to be prepared to speak up to anyone that challenges the Constitution. The era of our polite answers and passive attitudes needs to stop and we need to be very vocal. Our opposition doesnít understand fair play. They really think they have the right to be in charge of our rights. This kind of behavior was exhibited by President Obama in his inaugural speech after President Bush and his staff were gracious enough to make the presidential transition go as smooth as possible. When the Clintons left the White House they took millions of dollars of property paid for by tax payers and never thought they were doing anything wrong.

The above explains what kind of ideology we are dealing with. When the inevitable all out attack on our rights deigns this time we need to be ready to assume a strong offensive position rather than a weak defensive stance as we have in the past. We need to openly protest any threats made by our opposition. Whether it is in a private conversation with an individual or in a group we need to be loud and firm about our beliefs. This doesnít mean threats should be made but just definitive statements that we will not back down and intend to move forward.

Our founding fathers broke away from England to create a free country. Many have fought and died to preserve those rights. We will soon be challenged either by direct attempts to take our guns away and/or attempts to tax and complicate ammunition and gun purchases and we need to meet those challenges head on.

We will be challenged and we canít afford to compromise any longer. If anything we need to demand more freedoms and reject the chains of big government.
These may sound like strong words but strength is imperative and we need to stand together against any attempts at tyranny.

The sporting community needs to confront the anti-gun establishment head on. Every time the subject of gun ownership comes we all need to speak out loudly that it is our right, as a citizen of the United States of America, to keep and bear arms. Add to that statement that those who do not exercise that right are undermining one of the pillars of or great country. The rest of the country needs to join us in celebrating our freedom. Let them know that if they arenít gun owners then they are giving the impression that they are felons and canít own a gun or they are not good Americans.

We canít afford to tiptoe around this matter any longer. We know the fight is coming so instead of waiting and letting the ruling class get the upper hand letís start circulating this message.

Forward this letter to everyone you know and letís all add our own comments along the way until we formulate a plan of action and the letís follow up on it.
Let us resolve to keep our basic rights in tact lest we loose them all.

The following is a copoy of a letter that I sent to my Congressman. We should all take the time to let our feelings know in this manner. At least it is a start:

Dear Congressman Barton,
*I am one of your constituents and have been hunting and fishing all my life. The right to keep and bear arms is very important to me.
*I have been giving some thought to the way the new Administration is operating and have pondered ways to preempt their inevitable gun grabbing attempts. I think it would get things out in the open more quickly if gun owners ask for more rights and even economic aid to get more guns in to the hands of law abiding citizens.
*Just what if millions of gun owners wrote to their congressmen and proposed that the Feds pay for CHL training and one American made handgun for every citizen who meets the qualifications already in place in their respective states. This would be in the spirit of our founding fathers' intentions that we be armed to protect ourselves. This would also make it easier for a militia to be formed in every community in the event that government grew to the point of being corrupt and tried to take firearms and other rights away from good people.
*In a country turning soft on defense, every man needs to be able to fight for American dreams and ideals. At the same time jobs would be created and the federal moneys would stay in the U.S.A. .
*Please give me your thoughts on the above.
*

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gossamer
February 16, 2009, 04:41 PM
I'm sorry, but the "Obama will take your guns" meme really just smacks to me as marketing hyperbole come from people who have a serious economic interest in the very thing we're seeing right now: a HUGE upturn in gun sales and ammunition sales. And hey, I'm all for it. First, if they buy American it helps our economy. Second, it just means more law-abiding citizens are buying guns. Let's hope the same people benefiting from the hysteria are as vigilant in promoting training and responsible gun ownership.

Unfortunately, this same hyperbole preys on many who seem to be ignoring some facts, starting with repeated statements by the President that he has no intention of taking away anyone's guns.

The reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than for those plagued by gang-violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals.

I can only speak for myself, but isn't this the goal of every pro-gun citizen: To keep our RKBA and get guns out of the hands of criminals?


For me, I do not want criminals to have guns. I want to keep guns out of their hands. I WANT guns to only be in the hands of law-abiding citizens; it makes it that much easier to maintain our RKBA if we don't have a bunch of criminals running around with them.

As for my strategy; I am an unabashed progressive, I voted for Obama and I participated in his campaign. And I made absolutely sure that the campaign knew that I support the 2nd amendment unequivocally, and I expect the president to do the same, and will not tolerate any steps to limit gun ownership among law-abiding people. I made my voice as clear then as I do now when I participate in grass roots efforts to NOT limit the second amendment.

I'm a cynic in a lot of ways. So if I thought this president was really interested in taking away my guns, I trust in my ability to figure that out and adjust accordingly. Over 100 years ago my grandfather bought, kept and shot his guns. And 100+ years later I still enjoy that right. I have that right not because of a president from either side of the political spectrum, but in spite of all of them. I don't think Obama's capable of undoing what 225+ years of history and far more manipulative and conniving men never could.

Zundfolge
February 16, 2009, 04:54 PM
I can only speak for myself, but isn't this the goal of every pro-gun citizen: To keep our RKBA and get guns out of the hands of criminals?
The goal of every pro-gun citizen is to keep guns in the hands of the law abiding. Most of us are grown up enough to realize that no law against any product, substance or idea is going to work and that we should punish people for what they DO, not what they possess.


At any rate, the concern that Obama will sign any gun control legislation that crosses his desk is not hyperbole, and the reality that those that run the house and senate have long been active proponents of gun control suggests that the likelihood of new gun control laws is the greatest its been in ages.


When it comes down to it, Obama and the rest of the current crop of Democrat leadership have all espoused a desire to outlaw guns, and if you think for a second that making sure they know you support RKBA will matter to them, then you're going to be sadly disapointed.


Furthermore, this idea that the government can keep guns out of the hands at criminals at all (let alone out of the hands of criminals while not ripping them from the hands of the law abiding) is simple fantasy.


I'd rather we have ZERO gun laws, and freely armed criminals be eliminated by their would-be victims than see one law abiding citizen denied their right to keep and bear arms for a minute.

JImbothefiveth
February 16, 2009, 04:54 PM
*I am one of your constituents and have been hunting and fishing all my life. The right to keep and bear arms is very important to me.
*I have been giving some thought to the way the new Administration is operating and have pondered ways to preempt their inevitable gun grabbing attempts. I think it would get things out in the open more quickly if gun owners ask for more rights and even economic aid to get more guns in to the hands of law abiding citizens.
*Just what if millions of gun owners wrote to their congressmen and proposed that the Feds pay for CHL training and one American made handgun for every citizen who meets the qualifications already in place in their respective states. This would be in the spirit of our founding fathers' intentions that we be armed to protect ourselves. This would also make it easier for a militia to be formed in every community in the event that government grew to the point of being corrupt and tried to take firearms and other rights away from good people.
*In a country turning soft on defense, every man needs to be able to fight for American dreams and ideals. At the same time jobs would be created and the federal moneys would stay in the U.S.A. .
*Please give me your thoughts on the above
I think paying for the guns won't go across too well. (Apparently only overseas abortions are worthy of federal money)


made absolutely sure that the campaign knew that I support the 2nd amendment unequivocally, and I expect the president to do the same, and will not tolerate any steps to limit gun ownership among law-abiding people.
Did you not hear about his official position? Or are you calling the president a liar?
don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals.
The problem is that he believes that making it illegal for Joe citizen to own those is the best way to do that. He wants another "assault weapons" (not actual assault rifle) ban, that has been his official stance on the issue.

I have that right not because of a president from either side of the political spectrum, but in spite of all of them.
Actually, had the 2000 and 2004 elections gone differently, (And I'm kind of glad they didn't, I was a strong Gore supporter, and wouldn't want it to be my fault) the "heller" decision would have been different, declaring that the second amendment does not protect an individual right.

I don't think Obama's capable of undoing what 225+ years of history and far more manipulative and conniving men never could.
I believe that gun control for the general population has only been supported for 30-40 years, and only by 2-3 presidents. (Before that, it was a means to control slaves)

It's very important to write your representatives now, folks, they are the only force stopping Obama from enacting more gun laws.

JImbothefiveth
February 16, 2009, 05:13 PM
As for my strategy; I am an unabashed progressive, I voted for Obama and I participated in his campaign.
You're not completely unabashed, or you would support gun control.
And I don't believe your "strategy" will work, you have shown them that you are willing to give them your time and your vote, even though they have officially supported more gun laws.

But I'll make a bet : If Obama pushes for any new gun laws, you vote pro-gun. If he doesn't, you can say "I told you so".

Travis Bickle
February 16, 2009, 05:21 PM
At that time President Clinton didnít have the support of a majority in the legislature

Actually, he did. During the first two years of his term, he had a Democratic congress, and that's when the AWB was passed.

colemanw
February 16, 2009, 05:26 PM
... i see that political threads done from a conservative perspective are welcome here, yet i start a thread that asked for liberals on here to give a shout out and it got deleted twice...

what? liberals cant enjoy firearms?

rbernie
February 16, 2009, 05:43 PM
Your thread was deleted because it asked for liberals to 'shout out', without the benefit of any useful gun/RKBA content. It was not deleted because of your political leanings, whatever they may be, any more than any other threads are allowed because of their political leanings.

The RKBA issue is not a liberal-vs.-conservative issue. It does not have its roots in red-vs.-blue. The struggle is between those who believe that OBJECTS are bad and much be banned/restricted (or claim to believe this to further some other ulterior motive) and those who disbelieve in such things.

Efforts in past threads, this thread, or future threads to engage in purely political rhetoric with no RKBA content will be locked. Threads that provide support for the RKBA will be encouraged.

It's just that simple.

JImbothefiveth
February 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
This isn't a political thread, it's one telling people to write to their representatives.

rbernie
February 16, 2009, 05:48 PM
One final thought; the Activism forum is for the implementation of RKBA activism.

This thread is, in my opinion, just hanging onto that mission statement by the barest of ligature. The OPs sample letter sorta maybe makes it relevant (altho I'm of half a mind to move it to Activism Planning). Much more content that does not satisfy the forum's mission statement will get the thread locked down and/or moved to a more appropriate locale.

hso
February 16, 2009, 06:07 PM
"Write your representatives!" is not a plan.

A plan is specific.
It focuses on one particular issue instead of a broad category.
It proposes specific actions to be taken and outlines how to go about it.

So far we don't have anything here that looks like a real plan to do anything specific, but we have plenty of discussion of broad generalities. I'll move it to Activism Discussion to see if anything that looks like a plan can be developed. If not, it will be deleted.

gossamer
February 16, 2009, 06:28 PM
You're not completely unabashed, or you would support gun control.

I don't recognize any logic in that statement.

Unabashed: 1. Not disconcerted or embarrassed; poised.
2. Not concealed or disguised; obvious.

I'm not embarrassed in the least of being a Democrat and being against anti-second amendment legislation and being pro RKBA. I don't hide my pro-RKBA stance from Democrats, nor am I ashamed of my pro-democratic persuation in the company of pro-RKBA republicans.

That's the whole point of my strategy to retain my 2nd Amendment rights: to demonstrate through how I live and act to Democrats and Republicans that reasonable people can own guns, use them, carry them, and exercise their rights. That doing this does not inevitably lead, as many might argue, to criminals getting guns. That in fact people of a progressive persuation can own guns and protect themselves without any social upheaval or crime as the result.

Here's the thing. I have a LOT of friends who are hard-core Democrat/progressives, voted for Obama, and who own, shoot, carry and are devoted to the continuation of their right to bear arms.

We've found that the problem many democrats have, is that very few of them see or know any progressive gun owners. They look at this issue in the abstract. Well, folks here at THR, it's a pleasure to meet you all; I happen to be a progressive Democrat who has chosen to own firearms, committed to protecting the right to their use, and the right to keep and bear arms NOT as an abstraction but as a practicable daily reality. If I'm welcome, thank you. If not, just say so.

I've got no truck with anyone being a Republican and supporting their rights and dissing my president. I just have no interest in a discussion where i might be cast as "part of the problem" because of that.

As someone said, this issue is not red vs. blue. And for me, the more I can reconcile the reality of gun rights regardless of core political beliefs, the better chance I have a making sure those rights survive.

These people figured it out. (http://www.a2dems.net/whoweare.htm) and I completely agree with them.

gossamer
February 16, 2009, 09:04 PM
Actually, had the 2000 and 2004 elections gone differently, (And I'm kind of glad they didn't, I was a strong Gore supporter, and wouldn't want it to be my fault) the "heller" decision would have been different, declaring that the second amendment does not protect an individual right.

Isn't that kind of a fallacy of negative proof? The fact is we can't prove a negative and the fact that we can't doesn't mean the opposite is true.

wyocarp
February 16, 2009, 09:18 PM
As for my strategy; I am an unabashed progressive, I voted for Obama and I participated in his campaign. And I made absolutely sure that the campaign knew that I support the 2nd amendment unequivocally, and I expect the president to do the same, and will not tolerate any steps to limit gun ownership among law-abiding people. I made my voice as clear then as I do now when I participate in grass roots efforts to NOT limit the second amendment.

gossamer
Well, I'm sure hoping that Obama will consult with you before he does anything to take away our gun rights. You said you will not "tolerate any steps to limit gun ownership." Just what the heck are you going to do about it when they do?

You quoted Obama saying that criminals shouldn't have ak47's. Obama has also said that he doesn't think anyone should have an ak47. You are living in a fantasy and I don't think that many on here have much respect for anyone who voted for Obama.

I was in a gun store over the weekend and overheard a guy say, "Obama isn't president in Wyoming." I couldn't agree more.

JImbothefiveth
February 16, 2009, 09:21 PM
I don't recognize any logic in that statement.
Sorry, I mean completely.

Isn't that kind of a fallacy of negative proof? The fact is we can't prove a negative and the fact that we can't doesn't mean the opposite is true.
No, because the 2 justices nominated to the supreme court during that time period were essential to the ruling in that case It was 5-4, and if those judges had been anti-gun, it would have been ruled that the second amendment was not an individual right.

"Obama isn't president in Wyoming."
He's the president, so I hope he turns out to be the best ever, but I really doubt that's going to happen. :(

gossamer
February 16, 2009, 09:37 PM
wyocarp:
You are living in a fantasy and I don't think that many on here have much respect for anyone who voted for Obama.

WOW! That's a seriously high road you're on, friend. If that's how you show respect for the first amendment how am I supposed to believe you'd actually defend the second?

Tell you what, if you don't respect me or "anyone who voted for Obama" and you manage to make that the consensus, then I'm sure the moderators will ban me from the site, and frankly I'd welcome it in that case.

I have no tolerance for anyone who makes such pretense to be on the "high road" but can't respect another citizen's choice of who to vote for.

gossamer
February 16, 2009, 09:42 PM
He's the president, so I hope he turns out to be the best ever, but I really doubt that's going to happen.

I'm sure it will all depend on who conducts the poll.

gossamer
February 16, 2009, 09:43 PM
He's the president, so I hope he turns out to be the best ever, but I really doubt that's going to happen.

I'm sure it will all depend on who conducts the poll.

IndianaBoy
February 17, 2009, 02:48 PM
Gossamer just do me a favor.

Take as many of your liberal/progressive friends as you can to the shooting range.

I have invited lots of liberals to go shooting with me. I have a hard time getting them out. I know that just experience with firearms will do away with some of the 'boogeyman' image that guns entail.

Educate them on the issue. I doubt I ever find myself voting for a progressive. But I would fret a lot less if the progressives focused on giving us all free health care and not on making standard capacity magazines cost more.

hso
February 17, 2009, 03:10 PM
Folks,

We are in desperate need of ideas to protect our rights and restore the clear edges eroded from them. Progressive, Conservative, Left, Right, Democrat, Republican are all labels. You can use them to identify like minded people or you can use them to set people apart. What we need is for every person, regardless of political/social persuasion, who does NOT believe that firearms should be denied to law abiding citizens to help come up with ways to protect those rights.

Many people were shocked and in disbelief that the majority of voters selected the winners in this last election. Perhaps we need to think a little more out of the box so that reality doesn't smack us silly again.

Let's focus on HOW we can protect our rights and waste a less energy on point fingers and calling names.

Since this thread started out one way, got resurrected from an obscure death and has taken an entirely different direction, I'm closing it and suggesting that anyone that wants to start a new thread addressing the other questions brought up here do so in a manner consistent with the posting rules in this forum and THR's mission.

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