[Hal]

Kinda curious.

What do you think?

I've seen and read various opinions of him over the last 30 years that run the full spectrum from god to shameless blow hard.

[BryanP]

It is my firm opinion that the man is deceased.

(sorry, I couldn't resist)

I suspect that like anybody there's the good and the bad. No single person has ever been 100% good or bad, or in this case 100% font of wisdom or 100% blowhard.

[Brian Williams]

Some great ideas
Keith type LSWC's
357mag
44mag
Handgunning as a sport and for hunting
Love the great outdoors
cool handguns he had built I really like #5


Some bad ideas
Forest's Mama said, "If you do not have something good to say it is better to not say any thing at all"


He was kind of a blowhard. (I said something kind)

[jsalcedo]

I've been reading the Elmer Keith Gush for about 20 years and recently I bought about 20 years of his articles in old guns and ammo mags.

He was a pioneer taking colt single actions and blowing them up for our benefit. The guy suffered lots of adversity but kept on truckin. I use bullets he designed and loads he worked up 50 years ago.

I'm not a hunter but I can appreciate the fact that he went after some pretty mean stuff with a handgun.

Surely he wasn't perfect but who is.

[Art Eatman]

I've read a lot of his articles, and, of course, his "Hell, I Was There". I'd have to say the blowhard percentage was pretty doggoned small.

Art

[capbuster]

One of my favorites. Wish I could have had the pleasure of meeting the gentleman. I feel that his comments through his books and articles have helped alot of us.

[BigG]

He was a rough hewn guy born in a time that we can't recapture. He paved the way for a lot of gunwriters today with his personally researched material which still provides grist for their recycled articles. He had definite opinions. He helped design the Model 70 for Winchester and had a hand in the 338 Winchester Magnum cartridge also. Heavy bullets of large caliber was his prescription for most shooting problems. Keith was a big fan of double rifles, of the British pattern, also.

A similar character to Keith who should also be read was John "Pondoro" Taylor, author of African Rifles & Cartridges. Much better writing style than Keith, but the content is similar.

Everybody knows about his handgun work, but he also was an accomplished shotgunner.

[critter]

BigG, you hit it on the head. He was a guy who did his own thing his own way cause HE wanted to. He did not put on airs for anybody and came as close to telling things the way they were as anybody. I don't think he made up any lies nor exaggerated to any great degre-for two reasons. First, he didn't have to. Second, he did NOT CARE what anybody else thought cause he was his own man.

I have known a FEW of those tough ole critters from the 'time long ago and a place far away' alluded to by BigG and those guys were a very special breed. Would that more of us were more like them!

[toro]

Elmer Keith was a Montana cowboy who gained world fame as a big game hunter. He was the acknowledged dean of American gun writers. Elmer Keith maintained an abiding and active interest in firearms that led to his writing hundreds of articles and several books on the subject over a period of 50 years.

The recipient of the first Out-standing Handgunner of the Year Award, Keith was also Editor of GUNS & AMMO Magazine. Keith developed the.41 and.44 Magnum revolvers, his work for the Army during World War II, was well known. Also his shooting at old Camp Perry.

He was a cowboy, broncbuster, hunting guide and rancher. He was a big game hunter in Alaska and Africa. I would say he had a lot to brag about.


Mrs. Toro


___________________________________________-
Psalms 46: 9-11
He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in fire. Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

[Mornard]

I had the pleasure of corresponding with Elmer. What a hoot - his own letter, typed by him with all the typeovers, misspellings etc. is probably my favorite posession. He always believed in heavy bullets - (he considered the 175 gr. 7mm a little light for deer)

He was there, & he did it. He was a crusty, tough, old fashioned cowboy, didn't care what anyone thought - did and wrote what he believed in. My favorite Keith books are "Hell, I Was There" and his book on his African hunting. I don't believe the man feared a thing in his life.

Was he perfect? Hell no! -- and he'd say that, too. but he sure was interesting, and that's a lot more than most of us ever get to be.

[toro]

Some Elmer Keith Quotes:

"I always slept with my old .45 six-gun in bed with me."

"The kicking of that rifle and the gun headaches I sustained from shooting it prone determined me to develop a stock that wouldn't kick my teeth out, and I did several years later."

"It's unbelievable the speed of a grizzly. Within the first 50 yards they'll catch the fastest horse that ever lived."

"I had designed a .454-260 for Belding & Mull and then I designed a 260 and 280-grain for Belding & Mull, all of them with a very blunt round nose like the old .41 Long Colt. They shot good at close range, but were not very accurate at any distance. So I then in 1927 designed the Ideal .429-421, a .44 Special."

"I decided to make my living writing and guiding big game hunters and fishing parties."

"In the fall of 1931 I had booked a party led by noveliest Zane Grey for a two months trip over the Middle Fork country. Zane Grey wrote the novel Thunder Mountain from this trip. He sent me a copy of it, autographed, and it was loaned to somebody. Anyway, whoever it was never brought it back. Zane Grey never paid me the $1,500 he owed me for the trip."

"I'd rather guide a woman than a man any time. A woman will usually do what you tell her. A man, with his natural ego, may think he knows more about the job than you do and then you get into trouble."

Mrs. Toro


_______________________________________________
Isaiah 41:10
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God; I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

[Carlos Cabeza]

You mean the "pioneer of the large caliber handgun" Elmer Keith ? Well, there aren't many salty old dogs like him anymore. Now go shoot some .44 magnum until your wrist hurts !;)

[BigG]

Just another observation that occurred to me. The (to us) classic California style stock with Monte Carlo and cheekpiece was a Keith innovation, also. He used to get custom stockers to build to his plans back before WWII. Those guns were the pattern Winchester and Remington used to make their bolt gun stocks in the 60s and 70s.

If you look at the contemporary factory stocks, when Keith was getting his custom stocks built, they were a pretty sorry product compared to the later stocks built after Keith's influence. Keith's rifles in the 30s looked like factory products built during the 60s and 70s. I would say he was 30 years ahead of his time.

Similarly, telescopic sights. Keith had them when they had to be custom mounted on rifles without pre-drilled mounting points. He was a pioneer in many, many areas.

[mtnbkr]

There's not much that I can add to what has already been said. The most profound way he's affected me is by my habit of checking out the heaviest bullet for any particular caliber I'm interested in. He also got me interested in long distance handgun shooting.

He was a rough hewn guy born in a time that we can't recapture

Ain't that the truth. I still cringe when I think about him and his dad fixing his burned and twisted hand or when he fixed his flattened (by a kicking mule) nose with a pencil (stick it in the nostril, straighten the mess out...).

Chris

[Edward429451]

Elmer was good. Not God but good. Can't recall much if any blowhardism in his writing. I think he wouldn't be as accepted today as he was then, but thats the world and not him.

[Dollar Bill]

Who was it who said: "It ain't braggin' if you can do it"? I think that quote would fit Elmer Keith. He is a classic, a man of another era, the "Dean of Gunwriters", the father of the .44 magnum. He was tough and lived a tough life. I don't know if all of his stories are true or not since I 'wasn't there' but I don't have any reason to doubt many of his accomplishments as they are well documented. He liked guns, big guns firing big, heavy bullets and his stories make interesting reading. I have a signed copy of "Hell I Was There" and I treasure it. Some of his stories do sound like they were embellished to some degree but then, like I said, he lived in another time and had a very active life so some of his stories do seem like fantasy to us in today's world. I think I will go and re-read some of his stories when I get home tonight.

[HankB]

He did a lot of good, innovative firearm development, the most famous of course being the "Keith" bullet.

But his experiences seemed to grow with each retelling. I remember his reports of HIS load in HIS design S&W revolver using HIS bullet producing 1" groups at 100 yards. That's pretty good, since most rifles struggle to reach this mark, let alone an S&W revolver!

Of course, if you fire enough groups, you'll eventually get something really impressive.

Which brings me to his famous - or infamous - 600 yard shots at deer. IIRC, someone else had wounded the deer, and 'ol Elmer commenced blazing away at it with his revolver, hitting it several times. Now, 600 yards is a LONG way away . . . There's no doubt that a good shot will be able to put .44 Mag bullets in the general vicinity of the target at that distance - I mean, I wouldn't want to stand there and let him shoot at me! - but Elmer wrote as if running deer at that distance were almost routine with HIS ammo in HIS gun using HIS load.

Bulloney.

Again, he made a lot of good contributions, but he was more than a bit full of himself, too.

[DCR]

His name still evokes powerful emotions in Salmon, ID where he spent the last years of his life. A few years back on the KSRA radio want-ads program (called "swap shop") somebody was trying to sell a bathtub he used to own. :eek:

Is it possible to revere him too much?

[Kaylee]

another funny story from Idaho... a few weeks back I was sitting in a friend's shop as he fixed a rifle stock. In the middle of his work, he looked up and said "you've heard of Elmer Keith, right?"

"the guy who made the .44 mag, right? A little.. not much"

"funny you mention that. He prototyped the .44 mag right here."

"right here meaning Boise?"

"no... right here, meaning this shop. Right over there."

:eek:


Talk about a place with history... kinda cool.


-K

[C.R.Sam]

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it"? I think that quote would fit Elmer Keith. ...Dollar Bill Yup.

Sam

[TheeBadOne]

The only thing I can add to what has been already said is his shooting exploits. There's not much sense in debating them as so much of his shooting was witnessed.

[Mike Irwin]

Fun to read.

[Bostonterrier97]

When it comes to Handguns..I am in his camp..
Rifles though...I mostly agree with Keith..but I keep getting fascinated by Jack O'Connor's opinions as well as Townsend Whelen. Towards the end of his life..Whelen tested high velocity .17 caliber cartridges on game and reported some interesting results.

When it came to accuracy...I liked to read up on Warren Page (inventor of the .243)

[ElToro]

aside from blowing up his share of SAA's and S&W triplelocks pretty cool guy.

one his more darwin-ish acts that i heard of include stuffing a 45-70 bullet which is bigger than .451 into a .45 colt case with as much powder that it could hold and touching it off.. as soon as he was done picking chunks of metal out of his forehead.... at least he lived to tell about it.
overall great gunner and contributor to our gun culture

[Brian Dale]

"If you done it, it ain't braggin' ." That was Will Rogers.

Elmer done it.

[TonyB]

Little guy...big hat....real big gun.....what's not to like??:D

[DorGunR]

Little guy...big hat....real big gun.....what's not to like??:D

Kinda says it all........:D

[Penman]

Had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of times, and he was the genuine article. If anyone out there has a copy of his "North American Big Game Hunting", check the drawings of game animals that are used to illustrate shot placement. Elmer drew them. Quite a talented fellow.

[Quantrill]

The Chairman of the Board. Whenever somebody comes up with something new, I check to see what Elmer said about it. Talked to him on the phone one night, one of my better evenings. Hell, he WAS there! Quantrill

[olyAR73]

Icon,legend,pioneer,patriot....
The life Keith lived is inspiring to say the least...the hunting, the matches at Camp Perry, the ballistic innovations, the terrible accident he survived....it goes on and on. You really got to read 'Hell, I was there' to understand what kind of man he was.

This is a great topic...:)

[Geezer]

Lots of us old folks don't really tell y'all how it was, because you weren't there, you wouldn't understand, and you wouldn't believe us anyway if we told you the truth.

Mr. Keith didn't suffer from any of those misgivings. God bless him, and if the truth be told, he too probably had to tone some things down for the younger folks.

God bless and y'all be careful out there.:cool:

[Dr.Rob]

Curmudgeonly old cowboy who's been there and done that kinda guy...

Wait thats CR Sam!


Kieth is a must read. You can draw your own conclusions from later writers, but Mr. Kieth is about the only guy (other than me) to tell Jeff cooper to eat his hat. Jeff might have listened to Elmer.

[Backwoods]

Several gunwriters who met/shot/hunted with Elmer Keith have said that Elmer was the real deal.

He was one of those people who were blessed with eyesight, coordination and an intellect that made him extrordinary. He was talented to the point that he didn't really understand how extrodinary he was, couldn't really fathom why other people found his shooting skill so unbelievable.

When writing about the 600 yard deer he often stated that hitting such a target at that range was mostly luck and he wouldn't have fired a shot if the deer hadn't already been wounded. Thirty years of practice at long range handgun shooting probably didn't hurt either.

Ego? Sure, he had an ego that some found overblown, but no one who makes a living writing about his experiances and life, lacks ego.

Don in Ohio

[tex_n_cal]

Many folks have commented on Keith. Call him the Elvis of gunwriters.:D

Many folks have said his stories were embelished. After his death one writer commented how during a gun manufacturer sponsored trip to Italy, Elmer had lunch at a fine restaurant, with a number of other writers. As he was headed out, he stopped at the hat rack on one wall. Elmer was the only guy there with a big honking cowboy hat, and there was little question whose hat it was on the rack. Elmer still took the hat and checked the name inside, before putting it on. The moment was witnessed by the writer, who was impressed that Elmer made sure he wasn't taking someone else's hat by mistake, even though there was virtually no chance of it belonging to someone else.

I sorta suspect some of his stories are a little embelished. So what? There's stuff out now that I know to fall in the damned lie catagory.

As I boy I recall reading about the Alaskan hunting party, traveling on horseback. A guy out front is walking with an axe, cutting the trail, when a black bear starts to chase him. He turns and runs back toward the group. Elmer has a rifle, but is near the rear of the party and has no shot. One chap out front has a 5 inch S&W M27, rips it from his holster and drills the bear through the eye. The bear rolls over and stops with his head on top of a tree stump. Human chasee turns back to bear and splits his skull with the axe, which pretty much ended the charge.

I think in that same Alaskan hunting story one guy nails a brown bear, walks up to the bear, climbs aboard, lifts the head and says "Ain't he a beauty?" when said bear starts growling. Hunter exits stage left and shoots some more to finish the bear.

I recall articles on 1911 trigger jobs, and on extended flash tubes that extended all the way to the front of the case.

Like John Wayne, Elmer was feo, fuerte, y formal and an American original. Were he born to different circumstances, there'd probably be some very large companies with his name on them.

[4v50 Gary]

Didn't appreciate him in the mid-late '70s. If it wasn't a magnum, it wasn't worth it. Then as I read more and learned more, he was one fountain of knowledge and would have been a great guy to hang around and shoot with. Cherish the company we have today for tomorrow is not guaranteed.:(

[Erik]

My opinion is that he is one of the icons of the (semi) modern shooting scene who will be greatly missed.

[Blueduck]

Great icon, lasting legacy, all the great things about him listed above.

Small caveat in that he likely encouraged some folks to try some things in the field that they should not have. Also his experiences and expert opinions on handguns (mainly in the hunting field) are sometimes transfered to millitary, police or self defense applications. Some feel this didn't translate well...

[Hal]

Thanks all,,,

My own opinion pretty much matches all the above.

Elmer was spot on in so many areas,,,,and the longer I shoot,,the more I appreciate how right he was(is).


Kaylee
WOW! That's some hallowed ground there.

[mtnbkr]

There's a relatively new book out about EK called Elmer Keith: The Other Side of a Western Legend by Gene Brown.

ISBN is: 931220-17-4 HC
931220-18-2 SC

It's not quite a biography as it doesn't cover all of his life, but covers some of the high points and the auther's experiences with EK (he spent quite a bit of time with EK). It also talks a great deal about collecting his books, etc.

It gives you a perspective into EK's life that you don't get from many other writings. Things like the hat story told above (that story's not in the book, but similar ones are...) that show the more thoughtful and gentlemanly side of EK.

Chris

[BluesBear]

Elmer Keith

Skeeter Skelton

There is no way I can say either of those names without a deep heartfelt reverence.

I got my first subscription to Guns & Ammo in 1967 and Shooting Times in 1968. Those two gentlemen were a big part of my decision. Neither publication has been the same since they departed.

[MonkeyMan]

I used to work with a guy that was a SSgt. in the 2nd Marine Recon. Served two tours in Viet Nam. Big, boisterous, happy go lucky kind of guy. The only time I ever remember him getting real quiet was when Elmer Keith's name came up in conversation. He had the opportunity to meet the man several times and had the utmost respect for him. That said it all for me.

[Cosmoline]

I think he's a bit misunderstood. He often gets classified as the "big bore guy" from the backwoods of Idaho, while Jack O'Connor gets classified as the more elite "small bore guy." In truth, Keith wrote quite a few letters stating that cartridges such as the 7x57 were excellent, and O'Connor understood the use of big bores.

I highly recommend the two-volume "Gun Notes," which is still in print. Lots of great stuff in there. Very practical advice. Of course Elmer wasn't PC by today's standards. To test the effectiveness of firearms he would shoot cattle who were set to be slaughtered! These tests, IIRC, led him to conclude that a big bore handgun was more effective than a bow and arrow.

[CMcDermott]

I think Ross Seyfried says it best in the forward to Gun Notes Volume I

" Keith was the best shot I have ever known. He was perhaps the only man who ever existed that was a complete master of all three shooting disciplines. Keith could push a rifle, shotgun or handgun to its limits. To those who wonder if his feats were fact or fiction, I can say without reservation they were fact. I watched him shoot. Even as an old man, he expected to be able to make the difficult or impossible shot. While sitting on his horse at eighty yards distant, I saw him shoot a porcupine offhand with his 44 magnum. Many men I know could have made the shot, but only one would not bother to look back at the result. Elmer Keith knew the bullets had hit when the hammer fell. Elmer Keith "was there". "

[Bostonterrier97]

Elmer Keith wrote the definitive book on Six Guns
Of course...Ed McGivern wrote the definitive book on shooting a six gun! (Ed was probably the finest gun slinger ever)


On large bore Six guns we also have John Taffin over at www.sixguns.com

[Penman]

Once when a couple of us were visiting with Elmer, a guy came up and said "Elmer, I need to come up to Salmon and have you coach me on shooting at long range."

Elmer got a puzzled look on his face and said "Just hold up more front sight."

[Captain Ron]

I talked to one Elmer's neighbors some time ago and they said that he had a bad habit of shooting his elephant gun in the basement trying out new loads! I have read all his books and I do not have a doubt that he was the real thing and then some. Sure miss reading his work!

[Standing Wolf]

He was a pretty good writer. A lot of his material is just as fresh today as it was way back when.

[C.R.Sam]

Kinda off track but....
I watched Roy Weatherby testing a rifle and ammo in his kitchen.
That was when he was workin out of the house.
Interesting to say the least.

Interesting to me that McGivern, Keith and Sharpe all had vast respect for each other. Man....that is serious vetting.

Captain Ron...Welcome aboard. Enjoy your stay.

Sam

[444]

I made the mistake of reading this thread and ended up on Amazon.com a couple hundred poorer.
I realized the only Keith book I owned was, Hell I Was There.

[Jeff OTMG]

Knew a lot and let you know it. Nice enough, not as arrogant or self centered as Jeff Cooper, though Cooper seems to be mellowing a bit from my breif encounters.

[kentucky bucky]

If the man did nothing and had no substance, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Quite the contrary, he was a pioneer and helped shape the shooting world. I'm sure he had a few warts, but don't we all!;)

[Brian Dale]

Oh, crud, you had to go and post that. I'd say that I feel for you, but I think that a lot of us will be following suit.

[SunBear]

It ain't bragging if you can do it. Happy trails, Elmer.

[BigG]

Here's a couple of reviews of his books I have posted on my webpage:

SIXGUNS (http://www.epinions.com/content_93504048772)


SHOTGUNS (http://www.epinions.com/book-review-2D2C-29957A78-3A048247-prod3)

You read some of Elmer's stuff and you realize just how poor the gun writing is nowadays.

[106rr]

As a teenager I was always fascinated by his stories. Later in life, I made the pilgrimage to Idaho. I visited the museum in Salmon, Idaho which includes a big section on Elmer. I talked to some people who actually knew him. Some liked him and some didn't. One lady, a friend of Elmer's wife said "He never met anything he didn't want to kill." She also said, "you couldn't get him to shut up" and "He really was a terrific shot."
He had a very rough time making a living. It always bothered him that Jack O'Connor was so successful and he could barely make ends meet.
There were many people in Salmon whom he had helped a lot. They did not remember the Keith family during hard times. His wife was aided somewhat by her friends after Elmer died. No one paid back the loans/favors Elmer had made. Oddly he could write but complained that editors altered his copy to make him sound more like a hick. He had never gone to school as he was badly burned as a child and was not expected to live. He was free to hunt and ride when his chores were done.
I also went up to the Pahsimeroi Valley, Lemhi Pass and other obscure places in Idaho so I could walk in his footsteps and see what he saw. Fascinating man and fascinating time in history.

[fallingblock]

A fine person of the old school.

I met him only once, at the Ruger booth at the N.S.G.A. show in Chicago in 1970.

He was old by then, and I recognized him by the trademark hat and cigar.

I shook his hand and told him how much I enjoyed his writing, to which he replied, "that's what we like to hear". His eyes had a twinkle in them.... the sort of eyes belonging to one who has really been there and done that.

It is a great pity the world has changed so much in a direction away from a place where Elmer would feel at home :( .

[Boom Vang]

... The (to us) classic California style stock with Monte Carlo and cheekpiece was a Keith innovation, also....
Similarly, telescopic sights. Keith had them when they had to be custom mounted on rifles without pre-drilled mounting points. He was a pioneer in many, many areas.

I heard he also came up with a home-brew polio vaccine back in the 30s, and predicted the end of Cold War as early as 1947, and later invented the internet.

[Gunfighter123]

The recipient of the first Out-standing Handgunner of the Year Award, Keith was also Editor of GUNS & AMMO Magazine. Keith developed the.41 and.44 Magnum revolvers, his work for the Army during World War II, was well known. Also his shooting at old Camp Perry.

Elmer was a outspoken man , ahead of his time in many ways and a American HERO !!!!

[dogrunner]

I have been a fan of EK's since I was a boy, and boy that was a long time back!..................

That said, one of the permanent regrets of my life is that I did not go to Salmon and meet him personally when I got out of the Army in 1965 in Ft. Lewis, Wa......A good lookin' honey, a trip to Cali and old Mexico kinda got in the way but DAMN, I wish I had!!!!!!!!!

[gunnie]

more than a big bore icon. he PROVED small, high speed loads weren't squat without expansion. smashing the "velocity-is-king" theory emerging at that time. he did so by having a machinist friend turn solid bullets that when fired at a rabbit, had little effect until it bled out. this while the term "varmint load" wasn't even in existence yet.

he invented/pioneered/helped develop 44M, 357M, 41M, 338WM, firearms for those calibers, rifle stocks, primer extension tubes, progressive rifling, "dot" front sights, rifle bullets that expanded and handgun "slugs" that refused to. without a doubt, many other things i don't recall at this moment.

once, he asked the army brass why they were looking to replace the 1911, and proved with a rack grade pistol, that the general's driver picked from the armory shelves, that at 200 + yards he could easily kill with the sloppy old "INACCURATE" war veteran. same was the general's reason for the army plan of dropping it...poor accuracy.

he was instrumental in getting the army to stop "straightening" rifle bbls that had been drilled/bored incorrectly. proving that when heated, they would tend return to their untrue centerline. he could tell by just looking down a rifled bore if this had occured. as an inspector at ogden arsenal, he accepted/rejected bbls with ONLY A VISUAL EXAMINATION. this should give any of those with machining experience an idea of how good his vision was! after causing quite a stink about substandard products at the arsenal he worked for, he had to start carrying a handgun for a while after that, as his armory co-workers had made "threats". [fools are not a new occurence.]

proved that slow, heavy lead bullets from handguns rivaled even fast heavy bullets from rifles in penetration and straight line travel in big game, same due to less RPM's.

but even beyond that, most ALL of this was done without the benefit of a labratory or shop or research facility. he had an uncanny, nearly clarvoyant, ability to reason what should hold true, and actually ~prove~ his ideas with some of the least scientific methods one could imagine. conclusions drawn from his by-gum and by-golly methods remain accepted as fact today, some 80+ years downstream.

maybe just my spin, but perhaps it seemed like bragging or embelishing when he stated the facts about his truly amazing life. most every one of the stories he related involved accomplishments that would be once-in-a-lifetime events for all of us mere mortals.

as verified by MANY prominent/legendary shooters who knew him personally, he was beyond a MASTER shooter. with any style of firearm he picked up.

the only thing i will say about my overall hero in the fire arms field in a disparaging light is that the man had no qualms about killing animals for reasons i'd have a heard time justifying.

gunnie

PS i quit reading guns and ammo magazine when he quit writing for them.

[Larry Ashcraft]

Folks, this thread is six years old. Feel free to start a new one.