[madcratebuilder]

The first thread got off topic and is closed, so I thought I would start a new one.
There is a possibility, how ever remote, that we (USA) may end up similar to Great Britain in regards to fire arm laws. I don't want this to turn political but I think we all can agree that the current majority party would like to enact a sweeping weapons ban. There may come a day when the only legal fire arm we can keep in your homes are black powder, cap and ball or muzzle loaders.
So, what can be done to insure that they are as reliable as a center fire? I have my own idea's but I would like to hear from the other shooters here.

[Voodoochile]

I made a thread similar to this a while ago..

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=401991

Keeping a Cap & Ball Revolver loaded.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the thread Thinking of buying a 1858 bp. I see where it could turn a different direction & sort of hijacking "SORRY" so I thought to use my 30 years experience in these fine pieces to explain a little if some like myself wish to keep a C&B revolver loaded for an extended time without possibly high jacking someone else thread.

I grew up like many from my generation & prior around different firearms & was taught at a young age to only touch them when given permission to but have respect of them and all around us especially when a firearm was present & later I learned how to shoot & possibly hunt using these firearms where I believe is almost entirely lost to many in today’s generation.

With that said, I learned how to load & fire my Great Great Grandfathers 1851 Colt Navy .36 caliber back in 1977 & as many in that time would keep a pistol, rifle or shotgun loaded for just in case purposes & my home was no different including sometime keeping that '51 loaded from time to time so here is what I had learned in keeping these old pistols loaded & reliable for even months at a time possibly years.

First off is to find a load that works best for your particular firearm because each has its own quirks & dislikes just like their modern brethren, if your piece likes the wads under the bullet see if it'll like the wad with no lube "you'll understand in a moment."

Once you have the load pinned down then here is what I learned will make your C&B Revolver reliable & as weather resistant as today’s modern center fire cartridge weapons.

After you have thoroughly cleaned your piece & have it dry, take the assembled cylinder "cones installed" & have a cleaning patch soaked in 91% rubbing alcohol & run it through each chamber like you would when you were cleaning it, this will eliminate any oils & water that may be still in there, now dry it with another patch & then again with Q-Tips, be sure to dry the Cones "nipples" as well.

Either in a loading tool or in the revolver load your measured powder & then a dry wad & bullet or just a Ball or Conical into the chambers except one, this will be the chamber that your hammer will be lowered down on for safety’s sake.
Then after capping the cones of the loaded chambers use some candle or bees wax to cover the percussion caps & if you want some lube at the bullet use a 50/50 Wax & Crisco "or your preferred lube over the bullets, now your loaded cylinder will withstand the elements short of going swimming with it.

Here is the reason I suggest a unlubed wad "if your piece likes the wads," lube over time can possibly leach into the powder charge from these wads & maybe even the lube pills rendering the weapon at best a slightly less effective load or at worse a failure to fire & what I mean by over time is if the firearm is left in this state for more than say a week or so.

My loads for 3 of my revolvers that from time to time may be loaded for as long as a year "in one case."

Pietta 1858 NMA 5.5" barrel
29gr. FFFG Goex.
220gr. .456 Lee cast Conical lubed with 50/50 Beeswax & Crisco.
Remington #11 caps
Candle Wax melted over the caps to seal
Very effective & quite accurate from this little piece, mostly has been my companion on the club checking traps & stand locations for almost a year now.

Uberti 1858 NMA 8" barrel
29gr. FFFG Goex.
Dry Wool wad.
142gr. .457 Cast Ball
lubed over the ball with 50/50 Beeswax & Crisco.
Remington #11 caps
Candle Wax melted over the caps to seal
My most accurate load & pistol out to 25 yards.

Pietta 1860 Army 8" barrel
25gr. FFFG Goex.
142gr. .457 Cast Ball
lubed over the ball with 50/50 Beeswax & Crisco.
Remington #11 caps
Candle Wax melted over the caps to seal
Been with me for over 25 years & has never failed to fire even after being loaded for over a year including being caught in the rain while working the fields.

So yes with some patience & knowledge you can keep one of these pieces loaded for a long time but just be safe in doing it.

[4v50 Gary]

Voodoochile - when you melt your candle wax, is it with the caps on the nipples?

[madd trapper]

Keeping a BP firearm dry is number one priority. I have no problems using one for self defense. They are just as deadly as a modern firearm. I have been hunting with muzzlerloaders for over twenty five years . Using both pistols and rifles .

[Voodoochile]

Voodoochile - when you melt your candle wax, is it with the caps on the nipples?

Yes with the caps already installed on the loaded chambers but an alternative that does seal just as good is to use a finger nail polish "any color will do or even clear" I found that that stuff will keep moisture out as well & is a little easier to put on than the wax.

When I started using wax over the capped nipples on my C&B revolvers I wanted to be sure that it could withstand even a mild rain "thinking that there was a reason for the flapped holsters of the C.W. & prior days" & it has worked on a few occasions working out in the field where my '60 Army was subjected to a few rains & still reliably fired when it come time at the range.

[mykeal]

I have a serious problem with where this thread is going.

First of all, I'll agree that black powder guns can be just as reliable as any centerfire, smokeless powder cartridge gun (except perhaps they're actually MORE reliable than some autoloaders I've seen...). To me the issue isn't how to make sure they're reliable and stay that way; it's the the implied suggestion that they be loaded and left that way for significant periods of time. That's just wrong.

If you are going to keep a gun for self defense you must become proficient and stay proficient with that very same gun. If you don't practice regularly and stay fully proficient with the gun you're going to trust your life to you might just as well throw shoes at an intruder; your chances of being effective are just as good. In fact, in the home situation, you stand a good chance of being more dangerous to your family than the intruder when you start banging away without having the support of thorough training and many hours of repetitive practice. That's the reason the military and SWAT teams train so much - the vital processes become routine and occur without thinking.

And you need to do that with each and every gun you intend to trust your life and the lives of your family to. Anything less is cheating them of the safety they count on and may even be putting them at risk.

So, forget all about leaving your bp revolver loaded for long periods of time. Shoot it. Regularly and often, at the least once a week. Not only will the gun be reliable, so will you, which, after all, is the most important thing.

[Voodoochile]

mykeal I agree with you 100% that a weapon for defence be it a firearm or any other weapon should be used on a regular basis to be proficient with it for when the time that you need to use it but as my posting indicates that although I agree not every one has the liberty to go to the range or shoot in their back yards each week & that with loading using my methods will ensure that you have made all possible attempts to make the C&B Revolver as weather resistant as any modern cartridge firearm for those who may have to wait a month or so between shooting sessions.

[Old Fuff]

The candle wax treatment to seal a percussion cap was in use well before Sam Colt came along. A user would light the candle and after some melted wax collected drip a drop or two on the capped nipple. Our frontier forefathers had to be out and exposed in all kinds of weather environments, and in an emergency their guns had to work, or they wouldn't be around long.

Condensed moisture in the chamber(s) caused by extremes in hot and cold were what killed a lot of powder charges in the old days. Again, our forefathers understood the condition, but not what caused it. Those who were seriously worried about it would make a practice of shooting the loaded charges as much as once a day, and then reload– just to be sure.

[EmGeeGeorge]

Have a friend who a few years back brought out a pietta remmy... loaded, but not capped, for 3 yrs plus, in a desk drawer... we were shooting his other irons so figured why not.
first and second shots-fired fine
third-1/10 of a sec hang fire
fourth-no dice
fifth,sixth-fired fine....

not bad for sitting in a wood desk, no attempt to protect it, with open nipples.

with a remington you could load extra cylinder(s) and seal them in vaccuum seal bag with desicant packs, to be safe... Prolly last a long time too...

[grymster]

My garage weapon is a '58 Remington... but it's loaded with 250gr 45 Colts. I do it that way because I can, but I wouldn't feel a whole bunch less safe if I used cap and ball.

[Voodoochile]

Old Fluff you bring up a good point & I'm sure that even today we have some that experience a failure to fire due to the load receiving condensation either by temperature deferential or other, but since I have never experienced this issue since I started my loading process I mention above my theory is this.

140 + years ago our Fore Fathers did not use Alcohol to dry the chambers or barrels of their firearms & if there was any amount of moisture inside when it was loaded it would be attracted to the powder causing this issue.

Look at the modern cartridge, I'm sure that many of us have gone out in the coldest day to hunt with one of our cartridge rifle only to come back inside to our warm home that night placing the rifle back in it's corner or safe yet the cartridge no matter what unless it was a defect from the factory it would shoot as reliably as if it was a perfect day.

Since I have not experienced this hot - cold - hot condensation issue in my powder of the loaded C&B revolver or my Cap Lock rifle my thoughts are that since I take the extra time to assure that my weapon is dry before I load it & that it is sealed from the elements that with no moisture to begin with I have no worries.

Again this is just a Theory of mine in this regard & I have been out in the -15*F cold & simply brought my firearm back in the +70*F home quite often during a hunting season only to have it still go Boom when I did squeeze the trigger.

[Funderb]

if you load and seal in a dry environment you would not even have the condensation problem. Water can't get where it weren't to begin wit'!

I imagine cap and ball would be effective, maybe someone should create a self-sealing cap.

[Smokin_Gun]

I have 10 Remington 1858 revolvers...6 of which are tuned alike, to included point of aim at 25yd. The other 4 at a distance of 7feet which most home or street gunfights occur, would probly do just fine. I Practice with a like handgun tuned the same. Practice is practice and would make no differance to me if I had not fired the like handgun for a year and practiced with my other Revs. I usually have a couple loaded anyway.

SG

[LightningMan]

I would like to add that Colt style percussion revolvers, 51' 61' Navies 60' Army, and Dragroons, can have a jam problem after firing as part of the fired cap can roll down into the interial works of the gun effectively locking up the gun for further use. I thought I would add this information when considering a Colt style C&B revolver for home self defence. Also there was an articial I read about as to how this Cowboy Action shooter modified his ball & cap Colts to prevent this. I wish I could remember where I read this and exactly how he did it. LM

[Smokin_Gun]

Cowboy Action shooter modified his ball & cap Colts to prevent this.

I remember that post in CAS Index...it was like a sweeper...bristles on both sides if the hammer allowing the to move freely between them. Install and recessed on both sides of the hammer frame.
I just bring the revs up to 90 degrees after fire as I am recocking and the caps if properly fitted don't fall down the hammer troth and into the frame.

SG

[PMVARGO]

i would like to see a picture of a cap covered with wax

[madcratebuilder]

Quote:
Cowboy Action shooter modified his ball & cap Colts to prevent this.
I remember that post in CAS Index...it was like a sweeper...bristles on both sides if the hammer allowing the to move freely between them. Install and recessed on both sides of the hammer frame.
I just bring the revs up to 90 degrees after fire as I am recocking and the caps if properly fitted don't fall down the hammer troth and into the frame.

I saw one Colt open top mod to stop caps from falling into the action. A pin was installed in the frame under the hammer. It would stop the fired cap from falling back in the hammer slot of the frame, the cap would be forced to roll out the side in the recoil shield slot.

[Cap n Ball]

When I'm going out for several days in the boonies or reenactment I wax the nipples on my cylinders not the caps themselves. After loading the cylinder I take it out of the frame. Then I press the flat end of a crayola or small candle on each nipple spout then cap the nipple. This gives a semi-permanent wax seal against moisture inside the cap. The other end of each chamber is then sealed with crisco. Works pretty well for me. I usually carry six cylinders bandolier style for my 1858. My bandolier was made for me by a fellow who works in leather but I've seen others use a nylon photographers film cannister sling for the purpose.

[sundance44s]

I can remember when I was a kid , back in the 50`s our local news paper wrote something on the sub . of our police dept . not useing the pistols and ammo enough to keep them fresh...some of the officers had 38 special bullets in their holster belt loops that had turned green and were stuck in the loops ...
and we are talking Smokeless loads .. alot of these loads wouldn`t even fire .....These small town cops didn`t have much use for their revolvers , so they never thought about the bullets they had left in their guns and holsters ....even after they turned green ...I don`t remember what the time frame was that these guns and cartridges had been kept unused .....but no doubt your life saveing tools should be kept in good working order with fresh ammo ........Black powder and smokeless .
( Barney`s bullet was ok ...he always kept it in his shirt pocket )

[Voodoochile]

Yeah, good ole Barney was a dangerous man ;)

[Hellgate]

My main concern with keeping a BP revolver loaded for "just in case" is the issue of cap jams. If you use your gun in numerous matches and you have it so tuned and load balanced that you never get cap jams then the procedure that voodoochile describes for loading is excellent to insure ignition and would be fine for self defense providing you don't have a suitable centerfire to rely on.

[Speedo66]

What makes you think if they make firearms illegal, BP guns will remain legal? :uhoh:

[BHP FAN]

I've got a feeling a Howda Pistol or two would work admirably for defence.

[madcratebuilder]

What makes you think if they make firearms illegal, BP guns will remain legal?

BP is considered by BATFE a non firearm. It is one of the few guns still legal in countries that of banned all center fire guns.

I've got a feeling a Howda Pistol or two would work admirably for defence.

That's the first comment from most folks that see my Howdah for the first time.

[bang bang]

Here is a copy that appeared on "the American Thinker"website yesterday.Those libs that about including Antique Firearms that mean "Us" the blackpowder folks to their Bill.If that Bill past many of us will become outlaws.



February 05, 2009
More Gun Control Introduced in Congress
Gregory Young
The liberals are at it again. In a new bill introduced the first day of present session of Congress, and with zero coverage from the MSM, H.R. 45 (Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009) targets all gun owners in the U.S.A.

This nefarious bill seeks to strip us all of our Constitutional Rights to possess and bear firearms of any distinction. It requires, within the first two years, that all new guns be registered. The bill goes retroactive after two years. Meaning that two years after the passage of the bill, ALL FIREARMS in a citizen’s possession must be registered, not just those purchased after the bill passes, and this apparently applies to antique firearms as well.

Every five years the firearm owner must go through a complete renewal process for each weapon owned. Failure to comply carries stiff penalties including confiscation of the firearms and jail time (penalties as high as ten years imprisonment in some cases). The bill also authorizes government searches without warrant, the creation of a federal bureaucracy to monitor firearm possession, etc.

The following is a summary of the bill as provided by the Congressional Research Service. If you read the whole bill, you'll find it will effectively preclude the ownership of any firearms by law-abiding people unless directly licensed by the Attorney General :

[AdmiralB]

A quick read provides this:

(b) Amendment to Title 18, United States Code- Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(36) The term `qualifying firearm'--

`(A) means--

`(i) any handgun; or

`(ii) any semiautomatic firearm that can accept any detachable ammunition feeding device; and

`(B) does not include any antique.'.

So the GCA definition apparently stands.

[AJumbo]

I have had great results with removing the nipples, capping them, them dipping them in melted wax that pools up next to the candle's wick. Then just re-install them in the cylinder. This keeps your loaded cylinder a safe distance from an ignition source (candle flame), but you're still going to have to be very careful; you'll either be screwing the nipples into a loaded cylinder, or loading the cylinder with caps in place on the nipples.

My ML gun for self-defense would be a 12-ga shotgun loaded with 90 gr. of FFg and two dozen .312 balls. Shred the bad guy, and barbecue the shreds.

[Smokin_Gun]

In other words AdmiralB. the C&B Antique Firearm is still exempt from registration?
Just to make this statement perfectly clear...

SG

[AdmiralB]

It would appear to be the case, yes. I read that bill as requiring registration of all handguns and any other gun that is fed by a detachable magazine, NOT including antiques, which (AFAIK) are only defined in the GCA. So yes, any firearm that doesn't use fixed ammunition (among other definitions) is exempt from this bill.

That isn't to say that states or localities don't have other ideas. For instance, Florida takes it one step further in that in order to be an antique, it's gotta either be a real old gun, or a replica of one. So a Pietta 1851 Navy is an antique, but an inline M/L rifle is not.

[Voodoochile]

Which is fine by me in my opinion because any muzzle loader that wasn't built or one to replicate a 140+ year old one shouldn't be in the same class.

[AdmiralB]

Which is fine by me in my opinion because any muzzle loader that wasn't built or one to replicate a 140+ year old one shouldn't be in the same class.

I don't disagree, but it's a distinction worth noting. If it weren't for that clause (at least in some states), there'd be nothing stopping someone from designing a modern revolver - DA, swing-out cylinder - for BP. Say, with a quick-release cylinder for faster-than-speedloader swaps, and a transfer bar ignition and captive caps, so no spall to gum up the works. You could even design it for smokeless...Fed code only really indicates 'non-fixed ammunition' as a requirement to be an antique.

Sort of like when Penske had Ilmor build the dedicated Indy engine with pushrods, to scoot through the boost loophole at the time.

Something like that could, in lieu of state regs, even be marketed to felons, since Fed law is mute on the subject. So, I'm in agreement with you on this, because the only thing keeping this hobby under the radar is probably the fact that only law-abiding folks are into it.

I learned about Florida's code when reading the transcripts of a criminal case in FL brought against a guy with a felony record caught with an inline M/L rifle. He hadn't done anything wrong with the gun, he bought it to hunt, but was caught by (IIRC) a game warden who ran a background on him.

Before he bought it, he checked with the local ATF office and was assured that, Federally speaking, he was in the clear. The FL court agreed that he'd broken no Federal laws but that since FL code stipulated 'antique or replica thereof', and his wasn't, he was in violation of state law and back to the slam he went.

Shoulda bought that '61 Springfield!

[Smokin_Gun]

What do you all think the ROA would be classified as seeing how it is a C&B Revolver of Antique Design but a 20th Century Ruger Old Army? Maybe an 1861 Old Army Remington replica?

SG

[AdmiralB]

Hard to say until it went in front of judges, but my guess would be that it looks enough like a duck and walks enough like a duck that they'd expect it to quack.

The lay person would not be able to pick out a ROA from a table full of Ubertis or Piettas as being modern; kinda like a Hawken rifle I guess.

[Smokin_Gun]

Got ya...I agree with that.

SG

[mykeal]

Or how about an 1851 "Confederate" Navy .44 with a brass frame?

I don't recall anything in the GCA definition about a 'lay person' picking one out of a table.

I just love it when the internet lawyers come out...

[AdmiralB]

I just love it when the internet lawyers come out...

Like I said, nobody knows until it's tried.

I just love it when the internet cops show up...

[4v50 Gary]

What do you all think the ROA would be classified as seeing how it is a C&B Revolver of Antique Design but a 20th Century Ruger Old Army? Maybe an 1861 Old Army Remington replica?

By Federal law, cap 'n balls (or non cartridge) revolvers are not considered modern firearms. However, one would do well to check their state laws to see what their definition is. It's generally more restrictive.

[Smokin_Gun]

Gary, a Cap & Ball Replica is a replica and not necessarily and authentic reproduction...to include brass, stainless steel, polished or blued variations. So the local county or State laws as you mentioned should be checked in your areas even though legal under Federal Law Nation wide. I whole heartedly agree with you...

SG

[batjka]

I don't disagree, but it's a distinction worth noting. If it weren't for that clause (at least in some states), there'd be nothing stopping someone from designing a modern revolver - DA, swing-out cylinder - for BP. Say, with a quick-release cylinder for faster-than-speedloader swaps, and a transfer bar ignition and captive caps, so no spall to gum up the works. You could even design it for smokeless...Fed code only really indicates 'non-fixed ammunition' as a requirement to be an antique.

I don't know why someone hadn't done that yet. Smaller than J-frame, designed for smokeless with 209 primer ignition... That would eb a great home defense/pocket gun and with no paper work attached one wouldn't have to worry about the big brother confiscating them later.

I think I'm going to contact S&W and ask them to design something like that.

[Smokin_Gun]

S&W made one very simular to what you described...It's Called a Schofield .45 cal... :O)

SG