[CZF]

I watched the movie: BRAVO TWO ZERO
A story about a 8 man SAS patrol in the early hours before
the Gulf War.

During the firefights with the Iraqi soldiers. The guys with the
M16/203 rifles were yelling "stoppage!" while the FN Mini
(SAWs) were blazing away.

Looks like there was some excellent technical advisors to this
film.

No doubt, that the squad actually did have jamming problems
during the actual encounters. Same with the reports from the
most recent action in Iraq.

Leaves me even less impressed with the M16 system than before.
In my opinon: Only the SA 80 could be a worse 5.56
While I know that no weapon is perfect. There are plenty of fine rifles on the market to choose from, but some people cling to the problematic AR.

I know i'm not alone in my view of the 'black rifle'
Do you think that malfunctions are acceptable during a firefight
or at any time?

When i was in croatia. A major told me that they really liked the
AKMs and despised the M16s that would sometimes show up
from friendly sources. These rifles were soon dumped in the
local harbor at Split.

[Destructo6]

That was a pretty good show for a low-budget BBC production. The book, of course, was better.

So, you're in the "He-man AR-haters club"? Stand by to be flamed.

[longtom4570]

You are right, the problem is that the M-16/AR-15 gas system puts unburnt powder right into the bolt/bolt carrier and if you have any oil on the bolt i could gum things up,(i know this because i've seen it). One more reason to own and shoot an FAL:D

[uglygun]

I'm a fan of the AR15/M16 but I'm not a fan of hanging things off the barrel and causing undue stress to the barrel extension and bolt lock up.


Would certainly be an interesting thing to see, an endurance test between an M16A2 mounted with an M203 against just a regular M16 A2. As heat along with debris is placed into the barrel/action I can't help but wonder how the geometry might change after a couple mags of ammo rapidly put down range in fire hose fashion.

[Hkmp5sd]

I don't see how the M203 is going to cause any harm or increased jamming. If anything the M203 is going to act as a large heat sink and pull heat away from the barrel.

[BDM]

Its all in how you maintain and take care of it.Leave it dirty and it will fail you,more so in the desert.Every one has stories of failures but never any information as to what led up to the failures,Neglect probably.Navy Seals are always the first to say"When there is a problem with the M16 its usualy with the person carrying it"as far as unburnt powder in the carrier,I have gone 2000 rounds with just lube on the carrier rails and lube inside the carrier and it burned right through the rounds with no problem and this is in the rain with my bushmaster.:D

[Badger Arms]

When there is a problem with the M16 its usualy with the person carrying itTrue... Then why don't we get a soldier-proof gun?

I completely agree with the statement and it restates the point that us M-16 haters have been trying to make all along. Any gun that needs to be treated with kid gloves has no place in a front-line military unit. I'll repeat what I've said in prior threads. I like the Armalite gun. I own a few, shoot them, and love them. They are light, accurate, and ergonomic. They point naturally and look sexy. They also jam on occasion and require cleaning to function properly. If I had to take a gun into battle, I might take the M-16... I know how to clean it and am more than willing to do it. If I had to equip an army, there is no way in HADES that I'd consider the M-16. My criteria for stopages would be very stringent. The gun needs to go bang when you pull the trigger or it's just a fancy bayonet mount and grenade-launching stock. When we have to conscript kids who can't figure out 'righty tighty, lefty loosey,' we certainly can't expect them to maintain a finicky instrument like the M-16.

[clint1911a1]

My AR is coming up on it's fourth 1,000 round case with no cleaning (except for the bore of course) and not a single stoppage yet.

If your life depends on your tools, then wouldn't you do what it takes to keep your tools in working order?

[BDM]

Then better training needs to be implemented,if its maintained it wont jam and the desert environment amplifies it.During ww2 even the mighty M1 had its share of stoppages in africa when not maintained.The M16 is the 5.56mm weapon all others are compared to and judged by.If I had to say compare the AK with a US rifle it would be the M14 and thats a way better just as reliable rifle.And if any run of the mill soldier cant figure out the 16 and how to properly maintain it then we need to set higher intelligence standards for our armed forces.So when the 507th maintenence companies M249 and browning.50 jammed I suppose those weapons suck to?in a real bad dust storm where the fine sand accumulates would eventually jam an AK if enough crap collects.And nothing is soldier proof,soldiers just need better attitudes towoards maintaining things that keep them alive.

[Gabe]

Every army has problems with their equipment. Before you love the AK too much let me tell you a story.

Years ago I met a former Chinese army battalion commander at my MBA program. According to him the AK had many problems that led to their adoption of a Dragunov based rifle in the 80's. Aparantly the Kalashnikov had a relatively short barrel life, a gas tube that was prone to damage, rounds sometimes cooked off during auto fire, and the lack of a gas regulator give them problems during seasonal changes. Not to mention all the accuracy and ergonomic problems civilian shooters usually talk about.

During WWII, the Germans thought the Soviets had better small arms, and vice versa. The grass is always greener on the otherside.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Since I bought it about 2 years ago, my AR has been perfectly reliable. I mean that litterally: perfect reliability, not a single malfuntion, ever. It's a DCM match rifle, with an extra tight chamber. I've put some 2,000 rounds through it so far. There was even a stretch of some 800 or 900 rounds where I wasn't able to clean it. I squirted oil into the holes in the bolt carrier once, and that was it. It just kept on chugging.

Granted, I've never tried to use my rifle under desert conditions. I can't comment on ARs in general, but my AR has been perfect. Mebbe I just got lucky...

- Roland

[Tamara]

Do you think that malfunctions are acceptable during a firefight
or at any time?

Of course not!

(When they design a malfunction-free rifle, let me know... ;) )

[max popenker]

Years ago I met a former Chinese army battalion commander at my MBA program. According to him the AK had many problems that led to their adoption of a Dragunov based rifle in the 80's. Aparantly the Kalashnikov had a relatively short barrel life, a gas tube that was prone to damage, rounds sometimes cooked off during auto fire, and the lack of a gas regulator give them problems during seasonal changes. Not to mention all the accuracy and ergonomic problems civilian shooters usually talk about.

Chinese AKs are known for worst QC and materials from all mass-produced AK clones. The only worse are AK clones, hand-made in small Pakistani & Afgani workshops from any iron available.

Good chrome-lined Russian AK barrel can survive more than 10 000 rounds, sometimes more than 30 000 rounds, if gun is used and cared of properly.

[Destructo6]

In addition to the above, how would the adoption of a Dragunov-based rifle address the listed problems in any way?

I've carried and fired my Chinese MAK90 in freezing rain & hail as well as 115 degree desert heat and have never had a failure. It's also reasonably accurate: certainly minute of soldier at realistic engagement ranges.

[Gabe]

What I'm saying is all weapons have flaws, the more familiar you are with it, the more they become apparant. The M-16 has certainly breed its share of contempt.

I think the Chinese problem with their AK gas system is transitioning from extremely cold and dry to an extremely hot and humid climate. They eventually dealt with it by changing the vent holes on the gas tube. Of course it could all be a QC problem. But at the time, the Chinese army wanted a different rifle instead of improving their AK.

This pic is the one I'm refering to, the standard issue Chinese rifle from the 80's. Theoritically the Drag system should be more accurate, more controllable in automatic fire, damage to the gas tube should have no effect on the op rod. Of course just by looking at the thing, you can see it's no work of perfection either.

[max popenker]

I believe that the Type 81 is not a Dragunov derivative. Instead, it is a modification of the Type 68, which, in turn, was a mixture of the SKS gas system (with original gas regulator) and bolt carrier with AK bolt locking.

Type 68 rifle
http://world.guns.ru/assault/type68.jpg

[Futo Inu]

Badger:

"If I had to take a gun into battle, I might take the M-16"

Would YOU take it into the deserts of Iraq?

[BigG]

During WWII, the Germans thought the Soviets had better small arms, and vice versa. The grass is always greener on the otherside. This is wisdom. :D

[Bartholomew Roberts]

CZF - So you saw a movie of a real life event where an M16 jammed and formed an opinion on the reliability of the weapon based in part on this movie? I'm sure you realize the potential problems in this...

The guys with the M16/203 rifles were yelling "stoppage!" while the FN Mini (SAWs) were blazing away.

I did some pistol training with an ex-SBS Royal Marine Commando (Bill Davison out of Mingus, TX http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/. Sometimes we were using "Stoppage!" to communicate that we were out of the fight due to the need to reload, though it was mostly used during stoppage drills.

No doubt, that the squad actually did have jamming problems
during the actual encounters.

Couldn't say as I was not there; but there is also a part in the book written by Andy McNab where he describes being stationed in Belize and how one of his team members refused to clean his Armalite on principle because that man felt that it was unneccessary.

My own experience with the AR series has been great - ultra-reliable as long as you can feed it with decent mags.

HKMP5SD -
I don't see how the M203 is going to cause any harm or increased jamming.

There have been some tests suggesting that hanging stuff off the barrel and high heat combined cause the barrel extension to droop and the bolt to batter itself against the now unaligned barrel. If you'll check out the new SOPMOD Block II requirements they ask that the new rail systems free float the barrel and allow direct attachment of grenade launchers.

[AK103K]

What really amazed me about the M16's in Bravo Two Zero was the way you can duct tape a compass to them and its accuracy(the compass not the gun, well maybe the gun too. :) ) is not effected! Now thats a great sales point. Or, it proves the British ARE really lost, and no wonder why! :)

[Gabe]

Originally posted by Max:

I believe that the Type 81 is not a Dragunov derivative. Instead, it is a modification of the Type 68, which, in turn, was a mixture of the SKS gas system (with original gas regulator) and bolt carrier with AK bolt locking.

I'm under the impression Type-81 isn't based on the 68. Of course I've never examined one myself. A few months back Small Arms Review had an article on the new Chinese bullpup rifle, which it said was essentially a bullpup variant of the Type-81 and used the Dragunov piston and 3-lug bolt. I did see the field stripped bullpup in another publication, which clearly shows the Dragunov piston.

[bad_dad_brad]

Use only good quality proven magazines in your AR15. Search this site or THR for plenty of suggestions. Crummy mags are often the cause of AR jams. Download your mags by a few rounds as well.

Although the "keep it clean" rule is number one, do not over lubricate your AR. From what I have seen, that is one of the worst things you can do to attract powder residue. I like CLP Breakfree for this purpose because the petroleum carrier for the teflon drys quickly and does not attract dirt like gun oil does.

Good quality ammo that burns clean of course is recommended. Russian Wolf has a bad rep in this regard and sometimes white box Win. Very cheap stuff though.

The AR15/M16 is amazingly simple to field strip and keep clean, so there really is no excuse not to do so. I work with a guy who was a Lt. in the Gulf War, and said one of the most important things he did was to drill into his guys to know and keep their rifle clean. He had no complaints with his M16 and recently bought his own AR15 Bushy A2.

I got an AK. And I have an AR. If I didn't have the cleaning supplies or was too ignorant to know how to keep my weapon clean, I would have to side with the AK. But the AR is so much more accurate, lighter, ergonomic, perhaps more deadly, and far more adaptable, that it clearly is the better weapons system for well trained and well supplied soldiers. I much prefer to shoot my AR over my AK any day.

Guilty pleasure though - that AK (mine is a SAR1) is like a cur dog. Kick it, leave it out in the rain, make it sleep in the dirt, but as long as you keep feeding it (ammo), it will keep coming back for more. Of course, it is not even as accurate as my Mini-14, but it does always shoot and I confess, although I have not had a jam in my AR, I do baby her. The AR might be the better rifle for the professional, but there is no mistaking this, my third world guerilla army would sling the AK.

[Hkmp5sd]

SOPMOD Block II requirements Didn't know that. Time to go track down a copy of the requirements and learn something new.

[JShirley]

Nice answer, brad. From my experience, I would say the AR15/M16 are good, perhaps even great, police rifles, and less capable infantry rifles.

[444]

I have read some M16 bashing threads on the internet over the years. But this is the first time I ever read one that was based on something they saw in a movie. I think that speaks for itself.
On another note, in the book Bravo Two Zero, which was written by a guy that has been there done that, A real commando and not one of the internet variety; Andy specifically says that the SAS team members who participated in this mission CHOSE the M16 rifle (or as he calls them, Armalites). It was their own choice. They should have checked the internet boards or rented some movies before making that decision instead of relying on their own experience as members of one of the world's elite spec-ops teams.

[444]

:rolleyes:

[jzimm9mm]

My Bushy AR-15 had a few stoppages when it was brand new, but those are long gone. My SAR-1 has recently developed stoppage problems, along with a disturbing ability to trap spent casings down in the receiver. Although, it kept shooting with a casing in the receiver, so that's pretty good. However, my FAL has not jammed once. Great rifle design, in my opinion.

Jer..

[VG]

I have read some M16 bashing threads on the internet over the years. But this is the first time I ever read one that was based on something they saw in a movie. I think that speaks for itself.

Naw. Teaching recruits not to "John Wayne" it is a laborious but necessary Basic Taining task.

On another note, in the book Bravo Two Zero, which was written by a guy that has been there done that, A real commando and not one of the internet variety; Andy specifically says that the SAS team members who participated in this mission CHOSE the M16 rifle (or as he calls them, Armalites). It was their own choice. They should have checked the internet boards or rented some movies before making that decision instead of relying on their own experience as members of one of the world's elite spec-ops teams.

The Brits like the M16. So do the Canadians.

I'm always amazed that no one has paused to consider that American military officers might actually consider what infantry rifle is best suited to their purposes in insuring the continued existence of the American Nation.

Army training emphasizes malfunction drills - regardless of weapons system. If you are going to fight, day or night, in any climate, stuff is going to break. The vast majority of soldiers and marines deployed in both A-Stan and Iraq are satisfield with the performance of their M4's/M16's. And whatever small arm you are talking about, the #1 problem is usually magazines.

[Obiwan]

People.....now we are AR bashing simply over grammar and syntax!

Stoppage is a general term...used to indicate reloading as well as clearing a jam.

It lets your mates know they need to cover for you!

It is a catch-all phrase...meaning..I am not shooting...you better be!

[geekWithA.45]

It spit's em out, left and right. I've probably put 3000 rounds through it this year.

It had precisely 2 problems, neither of which was it's fault:

1 blown primer. :what: (scared the hejebus outta me)

1 dumbass idea to use moly grease on the bolt carrier instead of lighter lube. (Now I know what short stroking in an AR looks like)

Using gun scrub to return it to bare metal solved THAT in no time.

Just for grins, I think I'm gonna toss it in my kids sandbox and see how it holds up, and settle the question once and for all.

[444]

"Just for grins, I think I'm gonna toss it in my kids sandbox and see how it holds up, and settle the question once and for all."

I have done that, it was a big sandbox located in and around El Paso TX. You are not going to like the result. However, if you have a mag in the weapon, the dust cover closed, and the muzzle covered, it won't do a thing. If you spend a few days eating, sleeping, crawling, running, shooting it in the sand box-especially if it is windy, you are going to have a problem.

I hate to bring up another subject that is going to amaze you, but Ford engines are junk. I filled my crankcase with sand and now it won't run. It just got hot, make some funny noises and quit. That useless American junk. I bet the Russians and Arabs don't have that problem.

[clint1911a1]

As stated, the AR15/M16's magazines are the Achilles heel of the system.
Make sure your mags work. If you insist on aluminum bodies, make sure they have the green followers. Personally I prefer Thermold mags. Orlites are OK too but aren't as rugged as Thermold.

[Badger Arms]

I hate to bring up another subject that is going to amaze you, but Ford engines are junk. I filled my crankcase with sand and now it won't run. It just got hot, make some funny noises and quit. That useless American junk. I bet the Russians and Arabs don't have that problem.To make a more appropriate analogy, it would be better to vent the exhaust directly into the crankcase. Let's see how long your Ford engine will run then. Oh, but I'm sure if you did a valve job every 1,000 miles, it'd run forever. Muhahahaha. Better yet, do exactly what Stoner did. Make the crankcase cover and exhaust manifold the same thing. Have the exhaust valves vent directly into the crankcase. This is EXACTLY what the M-16 does. Now, how much sense does that make!? "Well, my Ford engine has 3,000 miles on it and it still works! I haven't cleaned a darned thing yet." Reminds me of a recruit I enlisted who asks for time off from his hometown recruiting so he can take his car to the Honda dealership. He leased it and put 60,000 miles on it without changing the oil!!!! EVER!!!! Then he wondered why it stopped running so well! Now, THAT'S A QUALITY MADE CAR. Treat it like crap and you'll still get 60,000 miles out of it before it dies. Wonder how many miles you'd get out of a "Stoner Crankcase" equiped car! :D

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

While the M16 system isn't the worst in the world it isn't the best (and the best is highly subjective), it still has its place. However, one thing that doesn't hold water is how many rounds you shoot through your rifle and don't clean it, you need to be running through bush, crawling through scum and muck, fatigued, being shot at, and all the other tidbits of combat for an accurate experiment.

[Quartus]

Lots of "experts" and a movie to back them up. Wunnerful.



My unit got sent to Ft. Lewis to do some jungle training. Some bright boy decided it would be a good time to have everyone qualify with our M-16-A1s. So we did. What's that, a couple of hundred rounds? No big deal. Then it was discovered that some bright boy had ordered WAY more ammo than an Infantry company needs to qualify. Like 10 times more. The Old Man didn't want to do the paperwork to turn it back in. We had time. He decided we'd get some extra practice.

Now, if you are just a little smart, you can wind up on the line shooting someone else's rifle while yours is properly secured in the rear. And you can be one of the shooters rather than a magazine loader. :D

Closest thing to a firefight you're likely to find in peace time. I lost track of how many mags I put through that weapon. I'd guess I ran though a minimum of a thousand rounds myself, almost all of it full auto. Empty mag, reload, repeat. Rapidly. 20 round mags dumped in one burst. At the 300 meter target! :D Well, at all the targets.


Oh, that weapon was normally carried by a loser - the kind that doesn't take care of things. We'd just been in the bush for 5 days, firing blanks a lot, and that thing was quite dirty when I started.


Nary a malfunction.


But then, that wasn't a movie, so what do I know?


Nope - it's not perfect, but it's very good. And I'm not basing my opinion on something I read.


I'd bet my life and my family's life on one.


(Frankenguns excepted, of course.)

[Texas Gunman]

Quartus, I was station in ft,Lewis,Wa 9th Div B2/2,11B10, but they had us doing other stuff as well, like we use to be one who giving recruits their scores. :D

I never had any problems with my M16A1, also no problems with my Bushy A2 shorty.

Some people shouldnt be allowed to own a gun, for obvious reasons,chances are they could even make a AK jam. :D lol

TG :scrutiny:

[Quartus]

I think it was '75 I was there, Texas. I wuz still a PFC at the time, so that sounds about right.

When were you there?

[444]

Badger Arms: Actually I think my analogy was actually closer to the truth. The gas venting into the action doesn't cause any problems at all. This is what the guys talking about how many rounds they have fired without cleaning prove. BUT, if you get sand right into the working parts of the action, AND DONT CLEAN YOUR WEAPON, then you are going to have a problem just like you would have pouring sand into the working parts of your engine.
Maintainance free rifles exist only in the movies, and in the minds of those who's experience lies in movie watching.

[swingset]

Let's do a body count:

Dead Afghanis and Iraqis with their superior AK's??

A lot, a whole heck of a lot. Thousands by small arms fire I'd guess.

Dead GI's and Brits with their unreliable junk guns?

A handful.




It's not what you field, but how you field it. If your army can support it, use it to it's advantage and maintain it to keep doing so you will have the right gear to win.

Lowly Afghans with .303 SMLE's sapped the strength out of the Russian Army with superior tactics. It's not the gun, but the finger and the brain behind it. When are we going to start learning this?

[Destructo6]

It's not the gun, but the finger and the brain behind it.
The Imperial Japanese thought the same thing and see what it got them.

It's a lot of things, to include, but not limited to: arms, ammo, supply, training, air support, intelligence, ...

Being superior in one arena doesn't guarantee victory. Dropping the ball in one, however, can spell defeat.

Fortunately, we're vastly superior in most military arenas, but it's no reason to intentionally ham-string ourselves.

Finally, I don't believe anyone was using the film to back their arguments. More like, it was used as a jump-off point for discussion. :rolleyes:

[BigG]

why don't we get a soldier-proof gun?

Ha ha Badger: Don't you know when the inventors come up with something idiot proof, the Army steps up to the plate and creates a more ingenious idiot? :D

[Tamara]

Finally, I don't believe anyone was using the film to back their arguments.

That's good, because it showed they hadn't read the book. McNabb spoke rather highly of the Armalite in both Bravo Two Zero and Immediate Action. After all, they chose it over the FAL...

[Steve Smith]

Tam, you're right. I remember that McNabb didn't exactly wax romantic about any particular piece of equipment, the M16 did have his favor.

[Hkmp5sd]

McNabb spoke rather highly of the Armalite
He also talks highly of it in his fictional book series.

[Abominable No-Man]

Well, I just recently returned from Iraq; before that I was in Afghanistan. I have seen the M16 work very well under some very bad conditions. Sure, it will jam if you don't clean it. Sure it will break if you decide to use it to
break down a door or bash your way into a vehicle. You know what, so will everything else.

A rifle is a machine. Any machine will break or malfunction if it isn't maintained. You've gotta clean your rifle, change the oil in your vehicle, and
sharpen your saw blades. Every once in a while, you have to break your rifle down and check it, and IMO, this involves more than just field-stripping.

I'm probably going to catch some HEAT rounds for this, but look guys, a lot of the folks that spout off about how much the M16 jams, or how inaccurate the AK is, etc., etc., etc., probably don't spend as much time really LEARNING their rifles as they do talking about them. And you know what, I'm guilty of it, too- I LOVE sufing the net and hitting the message boards and putting my two cents in, but honestly my spare time could probably be better spent at the range.

But that's not the point I'm trying to get to.

My point is this: There is no Perfect Rifle.

In the end, it isn't as important
what you shoot as how you shoot, and it all boils down to the operator behind the trigger. If you want to get past the less than sterling reliability of the AR, or the less than MOA capabilities of the AK, or the comparatively harder kick of the HK91 (vs. a gas operated .308...), then go shoot!

Luv ya
mean it

ANM

[Andrew Wyatt]

ANM speaks the truth.

[Obiwan]

Swords ...we need to go back to swords!

[Destructo6]

I remember that McNabb didn't exactly wax romantic about any particular piece of equipment, the M16 did have his favor.
Actually, I do recall he was a bit romantic about the suppressed pistols they didn't have. The M16 would certainly have my favor if the only alternative was the L85.

[Abominable No-Man]

LOL.

Obiwan, now you would have to decide which sword is best!

Broadsword, hand-and-a-half sword (aka, "bastard sword"), sabre, cutlass, Katana, claymore.........lightsabre........uh oh....

ANOTHER thing to argue over!

ANM

[444]

"The M16 would certainly have my favor if the only alternative was the L85."

I don't know, but I would imagine that an elite team like the SAS could choose pretty much whatever they needed to get the job done. I am sure they have been extensively trained in the standard and even non-standard weapons of the world. Obviously, as was mentioned in this book, one of their goals was to elude the enemy. But, if this was not possible, they would need to blend in to the indigenous population, at least at a distance. This would have been a major selling point for carrying an AK, but they instead chose the M16.

[Tamara]

The M16 would certainly have my favor if the only alternative was the L85.

Nope.

The SAS went over to the Armalite while the rest of the British military was still carrying the FAL.

[MicroBalrog]

I don't know, but I would imagine that an elite team like the SAS could choose pretty much whatever they needed to get the job

Which is why many of Israel's elite units still use AK-47's.:D

[Tamara]

"Plausible deniability" does not an uber-rifle make... :D

[MicroBalrog]

"Plausible deniability" does not an uber-rifle make...

Given that most of the "Patrol" units (Sayeret Matkal, Sayeret Tzanhanim, etc. etc.) are AFAIK not covert in their actions (except "Mista'arvim"), i.e. fight in IDF uniforms, I believe "uber-reliability" would be a better answer.:)

[Tamara]

Every picture I've ever seen of Israeli operators shows them with M-16/M-4's.

Maybe this has changed recently.

If so, they're definitely paddling their own canoe, as the M-4 has certainly taken the international specops community by storm. When SFOD-Delta, the HRT, and the 22nd Regiment (SAS) ditch their M-16's for AK's, maybe I'll see the light, too.

Sincerely,
Tamara

(PS: What do you think about your experiences with the AK v. the M-16? Here's my current AK.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=519883

No AR's in the stable at the moment, but plans are in the works to build another 16-incher for a social rifle to take the place of my HK-91...)

[Daniel T]

Swords ...we need to go back to swords!

Gotta take care of those too. Rust to remove, edges to sharpen, nicks to smooth out...

[MicroBalrog]

Every picture I've ever seen of Israeli operators shows them with M-16/M-4's.

Probably because it's illegal to publish pics of Sayeret/Specops on the job.

As an armourer, I've been taught the IDF uses lots of stuff which you don't see on CNN.:D

[Tamara]

Probably because it's illegal to publish pics of Sayeret/Specops on the job.

I'm sure independent stringers really sweat that.

I have a whole book full of pics of them on the job; Oleg's borrowing it, maybe you could pester him for details.

Anyhow, being an armorer and all, what do you think of the AK's you've shot?

[MicroBalrog]

what do you think of the AK's you've shot

Shot no AK's, as they are only accessible to the above units.

A guy in my course has been returned from one of these units to qualify as an armourer, and has nothing but praise for AK reliability:D . I have fired a '16 though, and find the thing very... uhm... user-friendly.:D

[Hkmp5sd]

http://www.isayeret.com/units/civi/yamam/t4.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/units/civi/yamam/t10.jpg
But they do have other nice toys....
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/magal/magalacog.gif
http://www.isayeret.com/units/civi/civi78.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/magal/48.jpg

[MicroBalrog]

These are, as the site says,
Civilian (police) units.

Besides, didn't you ever hear we have strict military censorship?

[MicroBalrog]

http://www.isayeret.com/units/sea/shayetet/s13-28.JPG

And this is how strict it is.

[Hkmp5sd]

The IDF Special Forces are civilian?

In 2000 the IDF began mass procurement of the M4A1 - the flattop carbine version of the M16A2, and IDF M4 procurement came to stop. Unlike the M4 which was used in small numbers exclusively by SF units, the M4A1 is going to be the new IDF standard issue weapon for all infantry oriented units, including both SF and conventional units, replacing the CAR15 in this role.

Today, civilian SF units still have small amounts of M4 used. The IDF also has limited usage of the M4, but the weapon likely to be replaced with the superior M4A1 in time.

All M4 used by the IDF has safe-semi-full auto trigger group and can be found in few configurations.http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m4/m4-m203.gif

[MicroBalrog]

the M4A1 is going to be the new IDF standard issue weapon for all infantry oriented units

Well, currently, it's not, and it's not going to be, as procurement for the Galil-Tavor is already commenced.

We rarely use ordinary M4's - or at least I have never seen one. We buy M16A2's and change the trigger group to make a safe-semi-full selector and then cut down the barrels and and switch stocks. Genuine M4A1's are very rare, and then are only used by the forward-deployed units.:rolleyes:

The shorty AR's you see will usually have "M16A2, US .gov property" marks on their lowers;)

[MicroBalrog]

The IDF Special Forces are civilian?

The link you posted was to pics of a civilian police unit. Don't forget, we have like 20 various SF units here.

[Hkmp5sd]

If you get to shoot the Tavor, give us a field report. I would really *love* to have one in each...

The 5.56mm...http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/tavor/tar-3.jpg
And .40S&Whttp://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/tavor/tavor-micro.gif

[Andrew Wyatt]

I don't put too much stock in what the IDF does, as they're facing poorly trained and poorly equipped adversaries. There's a lot of room for the IDF to have blatantly wrong doctrine and still come out on top. </flame retardant underwear on>

[Destructo6]

The SAS went over to the Armalite while the rest of the British military was still carrying the FAL.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious...in the 70s. To choose between the L1A1 and the AR is probably not much of an issue today.

[VG]

Well, I just recently returned from Iraq; before that I was in Afghanistan. I have seen the M16 work very well under some very bad conditions. Sure, it will jam if you don't clean it. Sure it will break if you decide to use it to break down a door or bash your way into a vehicle. You know what, so will everything else.<snip>

I'm probably going to catch some HEAT rounds for this, but look guys, a lot of the folks that spout off about how much the M16 jams, or how inaccurate the AK is, etc., etc., etc., probably don't spend as much time really LEARNING their rifles as they do talking about them. And you know what, I'm guilty of it, too- I LOVE sufing the net and hitting the message boards and putting my two cents in, but honestly my spare time could probably be better spent at the range.
Hey now! Ground truth!
Oorah!

[JShirley]

Israeli gear is influenced by the fact that the millions (or is it billions?) given to them by the US every year must be spent to purchase US arms.

Interesting to find that some Special Forces operators are again using an FAL (16" bl DSA carbine).

John

[444]

I have posted a link several times that disputes this. I don't know if they know what they are talking about or not. But, it sounds good.
Acording to them, Israel has tons of AKs that have been captured over the years. And have tons of Galils they manufactured. Yet, they choose to use the M16. Again, according to this guy, they could use any of the three weapons since they already have them in the system and US aid has nothing whatever to do with the decision.

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m16vsak47.htm

Are they FOS ?
Far be it from me to know the inner workings of the Israeli military (and I seriously doubt that anyone here does either).

I think you would find it interesting that some Israeli military units are using the Ruger 10/22. Does it prove anything ? Not much.

[Hkmp5sd]

some Israeli military units are using the Ruger 10/22

Rugers with suppressors and IIRC, they even call them "sniper" rifles.

[JShirley]

I think you would find it interesting that some Israeli military units are using the Ruger 10/22.

Well, good gosh golly, that almost seems like a veiled insult. Thankfully, I'm oblivious.

The obvious point of the best funded US troops using something other than the M16 family was that it was considered a better tool for the job. Since these are the same folks most likely to see action, and who have the best training, I personally do find that interesting. YMMV.

John

[444]

"Thankfully, I'm oblivious."
That's the reason I wouldn't waste my time trying to insult you. If I had been trying to insult you, I would have typed something like: You !@#$, that's right I am talking to you $*%&. And furthermore, $#@%.

Seriously, I was just saying that from what little I have read on the subject, it seems they are using all kinds of stuff including Ruger 10/22s which I found extremly interesting. That was far more interesting to me than what their standard infantry rifle is.

What are you basing this FAL thing on ? Are you talking about American Special Forces troops ?

[Abominable No-Man]

I have heard the FAL thing, too, but I never saw them. Supposedly, they were getting the short-barrelled DSA FALs for when they went into the caves in the Tora Boras.

7.62 has better range than the 5.56- desert country=longer than normal ranges. Plus better penetration of cover and concealment, bigger hole, etc, etc (better stop now or we'll have another "Which is better: 5.56 or 7.62 thread here......).

I'm likely to hear snickers about this one, but SOF magazine likes to take pictures of the SF guys. Maybe someone can dig up a photo of the DSA FAL's in use over there and verify this?

FWIW, SF pretty much gets to use whatever they feel like, so it's very possible. I've read a lot of stories about everyone trying to get 1911's and M14's over there, but still........

ANM

[JShirley]

Yes, Special Forces are using DSA carbines. I have both seen official reports on this and spoken with Special Forces personnel who verified they were in inventory.

FWIW, I do believe the M16 family of weapons does the job, I just believe there are other weapons systems that could do it better. The truth is, the rifle is pretty low on the list of casualty-producing implements in today's armed services, so anything more effective than a Chauchat would probably work.

[444]

I thought you were still talking about the Israelis.
There is no quesiton in my mind that US forces are using any number of weapons and their use of the FAL is no surprise. I would imagine US Spec Ops troops can and do use whatever they want or need.

[Abominable No-Man]

Yeah, you're right. The M16 does the job, and there are weapons out there that do the job better. I don't think the rifle is quite as low on the list as you do, but it's down there, especially compared to the grenade launcher, mortar, and RPG.

Sign of the times, I guess. Riflery is an art form, and the Rifleman is a
dying breed in most of the military.


:uhoh:

ANM

[JShirley]

Heh. I qualified expert with my M4...but I'm a mortarman. (At least, for another week.) :)

Drop 50...fire for effect!

[Tamara]

Yes, Special Forces are using DSA carbines. I have both seen official reports on this and spoken with Special Forces personnel who verified they were in inventory.

Do they have sand cuts in the bolt? ;)

[Kaylee]

on the DSA 16"-ers.. wow, cool. :) Sounds like a good compromise for the guys out in the Clear Wide Open in Afghanistan.

I was talking with a company manufacturing flash supressors about a year or so ago and they mentioned working on some discreet DoD project in .308. Wonder if it was them?


as to the 16.... hard to argue with success. It might not be the best rifle out there for the purpose, but there's plenty of folks from NVA to Al Queda that'll testify that it's plenty good enough.

-K

[MicroBalrog]

I don't know if they know what they are talking about or not

As far as people who serve in those units tell me - not always.