[p4+riot]

Is it possible to buy new but unregistered?

I'm interested in picking up an AR-15 or an FAL
but with the uncertainty of what will happen with
these types of rifles, I'm just not comfortable with
our government knowing I have one.

Do any of the major AR manufacturers sell directly
to the consumer without making you register?

[Ohio Gun Guy]

You must buy from an FFL unless you buy from a private citizen. All gun manufactures sell through FFLs. What you have stumbled upon is a defacto registration. They are supposed to destroy the application after some time, but I believe there are examples of this not happening.

[Duke of Doubt]

If your state permits it, just pay cash face to face to an individual listing one for sale in the paper or circulars.

[ArmedBear]

You've got to be a do-it-yourselfer, but yes.

http://www.ar15plus.com/

Only the AR lower receiver is legally a "gun." You can buy anything else without using an FFL.

If you build your own lower, you have a working AR that isn't "papered."

That said, if it comes around to the government seizing firearms, I don't know if it will matter much either way.

[Duke of Doubt]

ArmedBear: "That said, if it comes around to the government seizing firearms, I don't know if it will matter much either way."

I agree. I used to avoid paperwork and loved getting unpapered guns. But it really doesn't matter. If guns are seized, some will hide them, some will claim they sold them or lost them, some will turn them in. But whatever you choose to do, anything other than turning them in will be illegal, papered or not. And whether the authorities catch you at it will not depend on whether the guns were originally papered, as the paperwork will not help anyone find them out in the woods.

[expvideo]

It isn't registration. You don't register guns. Check your state laws, but this is true almost everywhere. It is an application and it is kept on file at the FFL, but not stored by the government.

[Deus Machina]

No, but it is possible to track it back.

feds ask manufacturer where serial number XXX was sold to, go to the FFL, get his paperwork.

Not sure if the manufacturer's end is mandatory, but my FFL's had to produce the paperwork like that a couple times.

[Duke of Doubt]

Another argument for owning primarily pre-owned firearms, I suppose.

[Travis Bickle]

Do any of the major AR manufacturers sell directly
to the consumer without making you register?

Selling directly to the customer without going through an FFL is a big no-no.

Your best bet is to keep an eye on the classified ads. You may be able to find one in new or like new condition. Barring that, you could always buy an old junker that has a good receiver and have it completely rebuilt (the receiver is the part that's officially classified as being the gun itself. All the other parts can be transferred to and from anyone without any restrictions.)

If you decide to go the rebuild route and go with an FAL, Arizona Response Systems and Arizona Expert Arms both have excellent reputations in the FAL community. Also, DSA and IMBEL receivers are considered the best FAL receivers. IIRC, those are the only receivers that ARS will work with.

[ArmedBear]

I almost paid extra for a FTF AR lower (they all cost extra at the moment -- I'd rather just keep what I have than pay what they cost right now).

I posted about it here, and got some interesting answers. What I hadn't thought about is that the seller would know who I was. I wouldn't expect, or want, him to go to bat for me.

If the government starts seizing guns, you have a few options.

1. Turn them in "bullets first."
2. Say you don't have any.
3. Turn them in.

You won't survive option #1, but it's available to you either way.

#2 is available to you with or without a 4473, unless you actually have registered a gun (e.g. handguns or grandfathered "assault weapons" in California). "I don't have that thing any more. I sold it." isn't much different from "I don't have anything like that, here."

#3, well that's what you'll have to do if you don't want to have an illegal gun around, whether or not it's "papered."

[SaxonPig]

I recommend that you not post your intention of committing a federal offense (hiding a gun that they want to confiscate as you suggest in your scenario) in an Internet forum.

Technically, a brand new gun must come from a dealer and that requires paperwork unless he is willing to join you in violating the law. You can buy unused guns from individuals and pay whatever they ask (usually more than new because they know what you and others like you are doing and figure you'll pay extra for an untraceable gun) as long as your state law allows individual gun sales.

For me, if they start confiscating guns I'm through. I foresee my own death in a hail of 9mm bullets from several MP5s.

[ArmedBear]

I recommend that you not post your intention of committing a federal offense

Exactly. That's what you have to consider.

If a gun is subject to confiscation, and possession becomes a federal crime, it will be no different from having a machine gun without the tax stamp, today.

It will be a Federal crime.

Like I said, you'd have three options, and two of them would be serious crimes -- whether or not your gun was easily traceable.

And at Ruby Ridge, we found out precisely what could happen to you, whether or not you're guilty of anything, if the Federal Government gets you in its sights.

[Duke of Doubt]

SaxonPig: "I recommend that you not post your intention of committing a federal offense (hiding a gun that they want to confiscate as you suggest in your scenario) in an Internet forum."

First of all, it isn't a federal offense, as there is no federal confiscation going on. It's a hypothetical. Second, neither I nor the other poster actually recommended violating the law even in the event of confiscation. Third, hiding guns in the woods may not actually violate the provisions of a confiscation. If someone hid their guns in the woods not on their property and they were asked if they had any guns in their possession, they might be able, depending on the circumstances, truthfully to answer, "no." Moreover, they could invoke their right to silence and against self-incrimination. They'd never be found out. Heck, people have been searching the Maine woods since 1927 for Charles Nungesser, Francois Coli and their Levasseur airplane --and for dozens and dozens of other airplanes. Once in awhile we find one.

[Maelstrom]

Hi, I'd like to commit arson, rape, and murder but I don't want anyone to know who I am. So I'll just go ahead and leave my ISP number right here and hope the cops don't show up at 5th and Broadlawn tonight at 9:23 where I'll be waiting with my gas can and trenchcoat.

[ArmedBear]

LOL @ Maelstrom

My point wasn't so much about posting the question, Duke of Doubt, just the fact that I don't think the OP had considered what the real consequences would be.

If the gun is illegal to own, you can't exactly use it for plinking or take it to the gun club.

Really, the only reason to keep a banned gun would be the reason my grandfather hid a pistol from the Gestapo. He thought that he might need to use it -- and even that would just mean taking a few Germans out as he was being gunned down.

Yes, this is a sobering thought. And while it could happen here, I hope we can help make sure it doesn't.

I'm just saying that people need to think through what this sort of thing really means.