Bushing sizing dies : Redding, Forster, Hornady..


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SteveW-II
February 7, 2009, 09:40 PM
I am looking at buying a bushing based neck sizing die to resize the 308 cases from my bolt target gun. Right now, I am using a Lee Collet die which gets me about 3 to 4 thou of run out in a loaded round. I hope to get smaller run out numbers with a bushing die.

I wondered if anyone had experience of the Redding type 'S', Forster Precision Plus or Hornady Match Grade dies to share ?

Do they all bump the shoulder back a little when sizing the neck without sizing the rest of the case ?

How much undersize do you order the bushings ? The literature says 2 to 3 thou, but it's clear that you can vary the case tension like this and not need to consider crimping..

Again, looking for input and opinion.

Thanks..

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45ACPUSER
February 7, 2009, 10:28 PM
Redding Type S Neck Dies do not mess with the shoulder of the brass at all. They size only neck of case! This is also true of other brands, Redding does offer a Type S FL die, too. If you buy a Redding Type S Neck Match Die set you get the body die, to bump the shoulder when needed.

RCBS has both a FL and Neck Gold Medal die set, and they use Redding or Wilson Bushings.

Forster usew proprietary bushings, I think. Hornady does not offer that broad a range of bushings like that of Redding bushings... Plus the Redding bushings can be had in steel or titanium coated bushings.

Most sort of want 2 thousanths tension. So, measure your neck wall thickness and multiply by 2 and and the bullet diameter ie 0.308, then subtract 0.002" for a bushing size. Each brand of brass will be different and may even vary with different lots of brass from same company.

1858
February 8, 2009, 02:21 AM
Steve, I have Redding competition sets in a bunch of calibers and I typically neck size 0.002" to 0.003" under the OD of the neck of a loaded round. USSR made a good point recently ... he mentioned that if you're reducing the neck size by 0.005" or more in one sizing, a 0.334" bushing will size the neck to 0.333". I checked this recently and he's absolutely right. If you buy the Redding set, get the TiNi bushing ... it's worth the extra cost. As 45ACPUSER mentioned, you'll need a body die which comes with the Type 'S' sets but not with the competition sets as far as I remember.

:)

SteveW-II
February 8, 2009, 11:18 AM
Thanks Fellas..

The Hornady Match Dies come in two flavours, full length size or 'shoulder bump', both using a bushing to size the neck.
From Hornadys web site : "Available in two styles: full-length sizing and shoulder bump neck size. Both styles feature interchangeable neck sizing bushings. Select the bushing your cartridge requires to complete your Match Grade Die"
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=25238b7bd426d79fc30894e50e30ecac&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=75d394f11b7903b7c4ee4528cfcc6157

The Forster is only a shoulder bump, with neck bushing.
http://www.forsterproducts.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=83

I guess the Redding is just a neck sizer, and you buy the body die to go with it.

When you load ammunition with these type of dies, what kind of run out numbers do you get ?

Thanks !

243winxb
February 8, 2009, 11:46 AM
Available in two styles: full-length sizing and shoulder bump neck size. Both styles feature interchangeable neck sizing bushings. Select the bushing your cartridge requires to complete your Match Grade Die. This is new to me "shoulder bump neck size" is that possible? :confused: If you push the shoulder back, something has to support the body, its called Full Length Resizing. I use Redding FLRS type S bushing die.

45ACPUSER
February 8, 2009, 11:55 AM
Forster PRECISION PLUS™ BUSHING BUMP NECK SIZING DIE (less bushing)

Reloading Dies & Parts

The Precision Plus Bushing Bump Sizing Die brings an advanced precision level to hand loaders by allowing you to precisely control the amount of neck sizing tension in your reloaded cartridge brass. The Precision Plus improves accuracy and prolongs case life because the necks are sized down as little as necessary while still "bumping" the shoulder of the case to maintain overall case concentricity and cartridge headspace length. Best of all, it prevents overworking the necks and allows you to control the amount of neck tension for your bullet seating operation.


Seems like a using a Redding Type S FL Die?

Hornady
For ultra-precise alignment and match-winning performance from your press, you’ll want Hornady’s Match Grade New Dimension™ Dies. The neck size die features interchangeable, self-centering neck size bushings (available in .002” increments) that eliminate the chance of oversizing your case necks and overworking the brass.
Available in two styles: full-length sizing and shoulder bump neck size. Both styles feature interchangeable neck sizing bushings. Select the bushing your cartridge requires to complete your Match Grade Die.


Seems to me like Redding Type S Neck and FL Sizer?

45ACPUSER
February 8, 2009, 11:57 AM
I have been taking my 308 Lapua brass down in two passes with a 339" bushing and them using .336" bushing, and I do the same thing with WW/BHA brass with different sized bushings. To help with minimizing work hardening of the brass.

Walkalong
February 8, 2009, 12:35 PM
This is new to me "shoulder bump neck size" is that possible? Yes, and it is critical to keep the shoulder bumped back a gnats hair if you are running tight necked chambers and hot loads. The adjustment for this changes as your brass goes from new/soft to work hardened as it gets multiple firings on it.

SteveW-II
February 8, 2009, 01:01 PM
Not wishing to hijack my own thread, but how do you measure the amount of shoulder 'bump' ? A RCBS cartridge micrometer ?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=574297

Once again, I am hoping that a bushing die will help me get better than 4 thou of bullet runout in a loaded round. Is that realistic ?

crashcarruthers
February 8, 2009, 01:23 PM
My solution is to have Hornady Custom Die made for a Gun. They also offer hydrallic form die that will expand a case so you don't have to fire form them.Just call them and ask about your options. I think a 3 die custom match grade set is like 185 dollars and you furnish them three fired cartridges from that single gun. Just an option.

Walkalong
February 8, 2009, 02:11 PM
but how do you measure the amount of shoulder 'bump' ?

Sinclair International (http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=REMTHT&type=store) and Benchrest Central (http://www.benchrest.com/) are good places to start.

1858
February 8, 2009, 02:55 PM
Not wishing to hijack my own thread, but how do you measure the amount of shoulder 'bump' ? A RCBS cartridge micrometer ?

An RCBS micrometer will work. I use a Redding Instant Indicator/Bullet Comparator (http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/rickjamison.html) to measure headspace so that I know how much to bump the shoulder back. The link has some good information regardless of what you buy/use.

:)

SteveW-II
February 8, 2009, 08:58 PM
Can anyone address the 'run out' question ?

> When you load ammunition with these type of dies, what kind of run out numbers do you get ?

1858
February 8, 2009, 09:43 PM
Steve, I don't measure run out of my cases so I can't help you with that one. I do roll loaded rounds along the bench on occasion to see if the bullet "wobbles" but that's about it. I should probably consider Holland's Concentricity Gauge (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=486557) but I'm not sure if it's worth it yet. I don't see any other offerings from Redding, Hornady, RCBS etc.

:)

SteveW-II
February 8, 2009, 10:23 PM
Thank you Sir.

I measure my 'run out' with a Vee block and dial indicator on the shank of the bullet close to the case, then rotate the round in the Vee block while keeping an eye on the dial indicator.. You can buy commercial setups from RCBS and others.

Clearly, I am trying to seat the bullet as close to the centre line of the brass as possible, but this is dictated by the neck. I.E. how concentric the neck is to the center line. The Lee Collet die gets me about 4 thou of 'run out'. I am hoping that a bushing neck sized will get me less. If not, then I will stay with the Collet die I guess.

Commercial Concentricity Gages :

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=292524
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=486557
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=310955

Walkalong
February 9, 2009, 03:05 PM
I am a moron sometimes. Repeat

1858
February 10, 2009, 05:23 AM
I measure my 'run out' with a Vee block and dial indicator on the shank of the bullet close to the case, then rotate the round in the Vee block while keeping an eye on the dial indicator.. You can buy commercial setups from RCBS and others.

Steve, I measured 10 loaded .300 Win Mag rounds today using a "V" block and a very precise dial indicator that our machinist set up for me. I don't know if this will help you but the maximum runout was under +/- 0.001". Most of the rounds were +/- 0.0005" which amazed me. First off, these W-W Super cases have been fired twice in a Krieger barrel/chamber, neck-sized three times, once when they were new but the neck was on the small side so the bushing didn't do much. They were sized two more times, once after each firing and they were sized down to 0.332". I honestly can't say if the Redding neck-sizing die is responsible for the negligible runout or if it's the chamber and the number of times that the cases have been fired. I don't think that W-W Super cases are thought of as being high end. I recently bought 200 Norma cases in .300 Win Mag and .300 WSM so I'll try to make some before/after measurements with those to see if the case neck's concentricity improves/changes after each firing.

I hope this helps.

:)

SteveW-II
February 10, 2009, 09:40 AM
Again, thank you.

243winxb
February 10, 2009, 10:05 AM
SteveW-II, You should do a search at http://www.benchrest.com/forums/index.php? your .004" run out you now have is not that all uncommon and may have no effect on accuracy if what i read online is true. The bushing dies work best on rifles with tight neck chambers. This is because the bushing has to size the neck very little. Unlike a factory chamber where the bushing must size down .008" and sometimes more. This is where they say runout happens. Go to the Redding site and read all of that info. http://www.redding-reloading.com/techlinepages/techline.html If you going to shoot 1000 yds, then maybe i would worry about a few .001" 's runout. Then custom benchrest dies are needed, they are not made by Redding, RCBS, types, these are just factory dies. I do not check runout, and my old 40x rifle would not know the difference IMO. Hope this helps.

1858
February 10, 2009, 01:46 PM
The bushing dies work best on rifles with tight neck chambers. This is because the bushing has to size the neck very little. Unlike a factory chamber where the bushing must size down .008" and sometimes more. This is where they say runout happens.

Steve, the OD of the necks of cases fired in my Krieger barrel are 0.340". The OD of the neck with a seated A-MAX is 0.335". Ideally I like to size the OD of the neck down to 0.333" but as USSR pointed out, if you size more than 0.005" in one step the end result is 0.001" UNDER the bushing size. I've been sizing in one step with a 0.333" bushing so the actual change in OD is 0.008" but my case necks have virtually zero runout. If this is where runout is supposed to occur then I'm either lucky or the equipment that I use is producing good results. I don't know what all of this means or how it affects anything. I'm certainly not a benchrest shooter. My interest is the practical application of firearms so 0.5MOA is all I'm after, but maybe you'll find this information useful.

:)

243winxb
February 18, 2009, 10:50 AM
Posted Feb 16, 8:14 PM
I e-mailed Forster and asked


quote:
Question

Does your bushing bump die resize the case body as well? Your website clearly states that it resizes all or part of the neck and will push the shoulder back but it does not say it resizes the case body.

Thanks, you make a great product.




and they answered


quote:
Thank you for the inquiry regarding the Bushing Bump Neck Sizing die.



This die does not size the case body. It sizes the neck and the shoulder of the case in one step.



We appreciate your continued interest in our products. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.



Regards,



Dee

Foster Products




So now the question is when it pushes the shoulder back and the case body is not in rigid support, where does that brass go?

_______________________________________
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/5281012301 Someone explain to me how you could push the shoulder back with out supporting the body, and still have the round chamber?? This can only be done in a FLRS Redding type S bushing die. IMO. NOT in a neck size only die.

243winxb
February 18, 2009, 10:56 AM
I dug out a set of instructions that come with the Redding Body Die. I will retype word for word what it says:


quote:

INTRODUCTION
Body dies are designed to full length resize your cartidge case and correctly bump the shoulder position for proper chamber fit without disturbing the neck diameter. Body dies have no internal parts and are intended to recondition cases which have become difficult to chamber from repeated firing and neck sizing.

NOTE: BODY DIES ARE NOT DESIGNED OR INTENDED TO BE USED FOR RESIZING LOADED AMMUNITION

PREPARATION
All Redding dies are protected in storage and shipment by a rust preventative film which must be removed before use. Clean the inside of the die with a good grade of bore solvent and wipe thoroughly with a clean dry patch.

Your body die will be used in a manner similar to that of a regular full length sizing die, thus proper lubrication is a must. Visually inspect and clean your cases prior to lubrication. Use only a good grade of case lube such as REDDING Case Lube and follow the directions on the package.

ADJUSTMENT
Body dies are designed with internal dimensions identical to full length resizing dies with the exception of the neck diameter which approximates your chamber size.

Under normal circumstances the body die is adjusted to make contact with the shellholder. If your chamber is known to be non-standard and has excessive headspace, you should follow the recommended method for adjusting resizing dies for "wildcat" calibers to insure proper resizing and headspace. This information is covered in the instructions for our regular die sets.


Now this clearly says that body dies resize the case body just like FL dies.
This info came from the above link also. I know this to be true about the body die.

1858
February 18, 2009, 02:33 PM
Do they all bump the shoulder back a little when sizing the neck without sizing the rest of the case ?

The whole purpose of using a neck sizing die is that they DON'T touch the shoulder or body of the case. None of my Redding neck sizing dies touch the shoulder. I have Redding body dies to bump the shoulder back if/when needed.


243winxb, I only buy Redding dies these days (along with the occasional Lee crimp die), but as for Foster's neck sizing/shoulder bump die, it does sound like it'd be difficult to size the neck and bump the shoulder back WITHOUT upsetting the body of the case.

:)

Walkalong
February 18, 2009, 02:44 PM
it does sound like it'd be difficult to size the neck and bump the shoulder back WITHOUT upsetting the body of the case.Those dies are designed to make contact with the body without sizing it. This contact keeps it from moving when the shoulder is bumped back. Remember, the shoulder is getting bumped back only 1 or 2 thousandths. :)

243winxb
February 18, 2009, 08:13 PM
The die is adjusted the same as any FLRS die. 4.0 CASE SIZING PROCEDURE
1. Install the die into any standard 7/8-14 thread reloading
press or Forster’s Co-Ax® Reloading Press so that it
makes contact with the shell holder when the ram is at its
uppermost position. This leaves no adjustment on how much the shoulder is bumped. If the bushing is remover it becomes a body die that can maintain proper headspace in any
chamber, custom or factory. 5.2 Shoulder Bump Only (See Fig. 4.)
By removing the neck bushing, the Bushing Bump Die may be
used to bump the shoulder without changing the case neck
diameter. This action maintains proper headspace in any
chamber, custom or factory. I know what the email said from Forster (DEE), but i dont buy it. :banghead:http://www.forsterproducts.com/Media/Instructions%20for%20Dies/Bushing%20Bump%20Sizing%20Die%20DIE-0008.pdf 6.0 OPTIONAL ADDITION FOR NECK EXPANSION
Although the Bushing Bump Die is designed for prepared
cartridges that normally do not require an expander ball, Forster
Expander Balls (E-10) may be ordered separately (See Section
8.0) and installed on the Spindle (D-10). This step may be
desirable when using commercial brass “as is” or to correct
damaged case mouths ejected from semi-automatic rifles. The brass should be neck turned if not using an expander. Dee referred your query to me and here is ,hopefully, the answer to your concern. Your question is important to us. You mentioned that you "were leery of creating a bulge in your case body". Answer: The body of the Bushing Bump die is designed to push the shoulder of the rifle case back only .001" or .002". This is just enough to support the case and to keep the body of the case in good alignment while the neck of the case is being squeezed down to a smaller dimension. If one were to try to push the shoulder back much more than .002" you may develop a problem with case "bulge". Best regards and good shooting, Bob Ruch @ Forster Products Inc.
In Conclusion, the Forster Bushing Bump Sizing Die will neck size and bump the shoulder as advertised, but care must me taken so that the case body does not bulge. The die would have to be set as if one was using the method of “partial full-length resizing”. To make life simple, just forget Forster and get the Redding Type-S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die that comes with an expander, or just use the decapper with out expander. Then control your cartridge headspacing by shoulder bump die adjustment. If you have a custom benchrest rifle ,6ppc type or 1000 yds gun, then buy real custom dies.

flashhole
February 18, 2009, 08:58 PM
My belief is you will get less runout with a better seating die. I like the Forster Ultraseat die the best but their benchrest seat die is the same sliding sleeve assembly only without the micrometer adjust. The Redding Competition seat die, another sliding sleeve design, is excellent as well. A poor mans compromise this the Hornady New Dimension. The tolerances aren't quite what the Forster and Redding are but you pay less.

Outside neck turning to make them all consistent thickness will help too and you can use the same neck sizing dies with better results.

Walkalong
February 18, 2009, 09:00 PM
Quotes found here and there are fine. Real world experience is quite different.

Full length dies are just that. They size the whole case. They can be adjusted to increase case life by not pushing the shoulder any further than needed in your gun.

Neck sizing dies are just that. They size the neck only. The bushing type neck dies are obviously more versatile.

Body dies are made to size the body of the case without sizing the neck. They expect you to do that in a separate step. They are made for the folks who are not bumping the shoulder back and are neck sizing only. Those cases will eventually get hard to chamber and the shoulder must be bumped back. (This is not the better way to do it in my opinion. Bumping the shoulder back a thou or so every time as you size the neck while supporting the body is the way to go as far as pure accuracy goes.)

If the Forster die will bump the shoulder properly while sizing the neck it is machined to lightly contact the case sides or it won't work. Since they make them for everyday rifles the tolerances in stock rifle chambers would be to great for it to be the best way to go.

My "bump die" (that accepts carbide neck bushings) was cut with the finishing reamer that cut one of my old Bench gun barrels chamber. They are all so close it still works for the two barrels I have now. It contacts the case body but will not size it enough to measure. It has to be constantly adjusted to match the "springyness" of the brass as the brass ages. When you are trying to bump .001 every time it is critical to check it every time and adjust as needed. This is a pain, but necessary, or you will end up with brass that is hard to chamber and then hard to get out. You don't have time in a match for that, period. (7 minutes to shoot 5 on the record and only 15 to 20 loaded rounds - They must work.)

Maybe the Highpower guys who bring lots of loaded ammo can afford a couple they have to put aside. The bump them back when only when they get tough may work for them. I don't know though. I would have to ask USSR or Slamfire, someone who shoots that game. It is different than Benchrest. We are after extreme accuracy at 100 & 200 yards, and that's it.

Those that want to load match ammo need to go to a rifle competition and see what "Match accuracy" really is. Those guys will help you obtain it, but be ready to get your feelings hurt about your rifle/ammo/etc. I thought I had a couple of accurate rifles (and they were) until I went to a Benchrest demonstration near me in Greenville Al.

Wow :what: I had to have one of those rifles. I was hooked big time. :)

USSR
February 18, 2009, 11:50 PM
Anthony,

I started out just using my Redding Competition necksizing die, and only using the body die after 3 or 4 reloads to bump the shoulder back. Then, I decided to use the body die every time in conjunction with the necksizing die for consistency reasons. So, essentially, I am doing FL resizing in two distinct operations. I am intrigued by the Forster bump die, but it is my understanding that Forster uses different bushings than Redding, and I already have a bit of $$$ invested in the Redding TiN bushings.

Don

1858
February 19, 2009, 12:51 AM
Don, I'm on my third loading (neck size only) for some .300 Win Mag cases (Winchester W-W Super) and the bolt closes very easily still so I'm not going to bump the shoulders back until it becomes a problem ... and hopefully never. My understanding is that the shoulder moves forward during each firing until it can't move forward any more. If the bolt face and chamber are true and the bolt lugs are true, then wouldn't the shoulder get to the point where it couldn't move any further forward and it should be a 0.001" or maybe 0.0005" or so shorter than bolt face to shoulder (datum) dimension. I've noticed on rifles that haven't had the actions trued and/or that have mass produced chambers, all kinds of hell breaks loose in terms of headspacing, but so far, with the Kreiger barrels/chambers and trued actions, I'm seeing much more consistent results in terms of case dimensions.

and I already have a bit of $$$ invested in the Redding TiN bushings.

Me too!! I have that little green Redding box for bushing storage and it's full with .30 cal and .223 cal TiN bushings!

:)

243winxb
February 19, 2009, 07:58 AM
Then, I decided to use the body die every time in conjunction with the necksizing die for consistency reasons. This is why i bought the Redding Type-S FLRS Bushing Die, it does it all in one operation. In Conclusion, the Forster Bushing Bump Sizing Die will neck size and bump the shoulder as advertised, but care must me taken so that the case body does not bulge. The die would have to be set as if one was using the method of “partial full-length resizing”. To make life simple, just forget Forster and get the Redding Type-S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die that comes with an expander, or just use the decapper with out expander. Then control your cartridge headspacing by shoulder bump die adjustment. If you have a custom benchrest rifle ,6ppc type or 1000 yds gun, then buy real custom dies. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5350106&postcount=25

Walkalong
February 19, 2009, 10:01 AM
I already have a bit of $$$ invested in the Redding TiN bushings.
You ought to price the carbide ones, :eek: but they sure are smooth. :)

USSR
February 19, 2009, 02:04 PM
To make life simple, just forget Forster and get the Redding Type-S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die that comes with an expander, or just use the decapper with out expander. Then control your cartridge headspacing by shoulder bump die adjustment. If you have a custom benchrest rifle ,6ppc type or 1000 yds gun, then buy real custom dies.

The first thing I did when I received my Redding Competition dies was remove the decapping pin and expander ball. I would NEVER pull a nasty expander ball thru my nicely resized necks. The thing I like about sizing the necks and body/shoulder in two separate operations is, I can vary the amount of the neck that I resize, without having it impact the amount I am bumping the shoulder back. All my tactical rifles are set up for 1000 yard F Class shooting, and I have been extremely pleased with ammo produced with Redding micrometer dies.

Don

1858
February 19, 2009, 02:14 PM
The first thing I did when I received my Redding Competition dies was remove the decapping pin and expander ball. I would NEVER pull a nasty expander ball thru my nicely resized necks.

:what: Redding Competition neck sizing dies don't have expander ball decapping pins ... it would defeat the whole purpose of a NECK sizing die! The decapping pins that come with their Competition dies are the straight variety with the OD of the shaft being CONSIDERABLY less than the ID of the case neck. :confused: I have five complete sets in five different calibers and none of them have an expander ball decapping pin.

:)

243winxb
February 19, 2009, 03:49 PM
I can vary the amount of the neck that I resize, This can be done with Redding type-S flrs bushing dies. Also you have the choice of using an expander/decapper for factory brass or if brass has been neck turned, just the decapper.

USSR
February 19, 2009, 11:06 PM
1858,

That's what happens when I post from work and don't have access to my reloading equipment. They are indeed just decapping pins, sans expander balls. I agree, expander balls with bushing dies don't make much sense, but the FL bushing dies that Redding sells do come with them. In any case (no pun intended), all my decapping is done with a Lyman Universal Decapping die.

Don

plinky
February 21, 2009, 01:52 PM
Somehow I lost track of this thread for a few days and missed some good info. For better or worse, I just ordered the Forster bushing/bump dies for a couple of rifles. It's my first venture into bushing dies but hopefully they'll work for my purposes.

Seems like the most imprecise step in reloading is running the expander through the neck. The case is totally unsupported at this point and depending on the qualities of the brass, the neck could easily be pulled crooked. So ANY die that avoids the expanding step is a step forward IMHO.

It seems like the slight "bump" should be easy enough to reduce or remove, making this die a standard neck die with the adjustability of bushings. The bump may be a good thing though. The Redding dies with their floating chamber are probably better but more expensive. The Forsters are available with a set of three bushings at a good price. That's what I went with. I tried to get the next step smaller bushing to go with each die but one was special order.

Should be interesting.

Walkalong
February 21, 2009, 03:13 PM
I have some older Forster rifle dies (not bushing style) and they work great. I am sure their new stuff is quality as well. They were probably losing sales to Redding by not having bushing style dies, so they started making them as well.

USSR
February 21, 2009, 11:31 PM
Seems like the most imprecise step in reloading is running the expander through the neck. The case is totally unsupported at this point and depending on the qualities of the brass, the neck could easily be pulled crooked.

Exactly. We are doing all this precision work, and then we haphazardly pull this ball thru the neck, that we intentionally reduced in size too much (thereby working the neck more than necessary), just so we could pull this ball thru and potentially undo all our precision work.

Don

243winxb
February 22, 2009, 09:29 AM
The expander does have a use when paired with bushing dies.IMO. Lets say you don't want to outside neck turn. And you want to use new cheap brass. The neck wall thickness of the brass may vari .002" or more. You don't want to use the bullet as your expander. With the proper bushing selection you will not over work the brass or pull the neck off center of the case. This combining of bushing and expanded are a better choice than a standard die that may size the neck down more than needed by as much as .010" or more,depending on the neck thickness. The nice part of using the Redding FLRS Type-S bushing die is you can do both, your choice. The FLRS die holds the case in alignment while the floating bushing finds its center on the case neck. If you only size half of the neck, the unsized part of the neck will center the round in the chamber. This is good for accuracy. All good for factory guns or custom barrels. , not so for full blown bench rest rifles. Bench rest guns do not use an expander as there brass is neck turned.

Walkalong
February 22, 2009, 11:19 AM
If you only size half of the neck, the unsized part of the neck will center the round in the chamber. This is good for accuracy. All good for factory guns or custom barrels, not so for full blown bench rest rifles.We partially size the neck too, for just that reason. Despite our close tolerances every little bit helps.

When you use an expander ball the ID is usually pretty close, affected mostly by how springy the necks are. The neck wall thicknesses show on the OD

When you use a bushing they can vary for all that reason PLUS the differenes in neck thickneses. It pushes all the brass in so most of the varience is on the ID instead of the outside like using an expander ball.

Neck bushings are most useful with brass that has extremely tight tolerances and very even neck wall thickness from case to case, or brass where the necks have been reamed or turned (or both).

All that is best when using a tight necked chamber.

Standard factory rifles with their generous sloppy chambers don't benefit nearly as much from using bushing dies.

The whole idea is to get CONSISTENT neck tension. Brass with uneven neck wall thickness and necks that vary from cases to case make this tougher with bushing dies.

It's kind of like putting a race car engine in a stock car with out beefing up the drive train to handle the power. When you change one thing it affects others, and they have to be changed as well to get the potential benefit.

Clear as mud yet? :scrutiny:

SteveW-II
February 22, 2009, 12:32 PM
> Clear as mud yet?

It's all good stuff. My gun has a standard chamber, so I am holding off from buying any bushing dies until I shoot my next set of reloads and can measure the outside diameter of the neck of fired brass. From what I have read so far, I may not see any benefit from the bushing dies unless I have a tighter chamber.

I am now beginning to understand that a tighter chamber doesn't mean that a factory round will be more precisely aligned, it means that the fired brass will not need so much re-sizing and therefor has the potential to be reloaded straighter that brass from a larger chamber.

243winxb
February 22, 2009, 01:12 PM
SteveW-II Measure the outside diameter (OD) of 3 fired brass, number them 1, 2, and 3 . Then remove the expander from your FLRS die. Size your 3 brass and Measure the OD. This will tell you how much your die is sizing. If its more than .006" from a loaded round OD (your ammo,not saami), you may want to consider sending 3 fired cases to the die maker and have them hone the neck area of the die so it does not size as much. This is a great cost effect method and can work well. A problem can arise if the next lot of brass has very thin neck wall diameter, it would not hold the bullet tight. In 243win a saami neck dia. of a loaded round is .276", a fired case should not be more than .278" OD. If a sized case OD without using an expander is under .266" the die is sizing to much. You will find that different lots of brass have different neck wall thickness. Most all loaded rounds will not measure what saami lists as the loaded neck OD because of thin neck walls.

SteveW-II
February 23, 2009, 09:43 AM
> have them hone the neck area of the die so it does not size as much

Thanks for the suggestion. I didn't know that was offered as a service.

If I did that, I would get the same result as a full length sizing die, with a neck bushing. Is that right ?

243winxb
February 23, 2009, 10:24 AM
If I did that, I would get the same result as a full length sizing die, with a neck bushing. Is that right ? You would maybe work the brass neck less with bushings. You would have more control with a bushing. But in a factory chambered rifle, you would not know till you tried both methods. Remember the bushing can just size half of the neck. The unsized part centers the round in the chamber. The honed neck can be almost as accurate if you control your shoulder bump when flrs. All guns are different, you dont know till you try.

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