[led4evr1978]

Hey guys. I'm new here. Hope I don't sound stupid to you all. Here's my question. I'm fairly new to concealed carry.(Got my liscense 6 months ago.) I have a Colt Defender Plus that I carry. I found some Winchester Black Talons on gunbroker and bought a box. 230gr .45 ACP. Anyone think I'm asking for trouble carrying these rounds? Either a reliability problem, stopping power problem, or problems with prosecutors using them against me if I (god forbid) ever have to use them? Any input from anyone with a thought on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.


Semper Fi

[kingpin008]

In regards to reliability, that's something that you're going to have to determine with your particular pistol. In general, there shouldn't be a problem, but sometimes individual firearms can be a bit finicky when it comes to what ammo they'll function with.

Stopping power - Well, getting shot with any type of hollow-point isn't exactly something to sneeze at, and the .45ACP round packs a decent punch regardless. So, even if the bullet fails to expand, I'd think you're in pretty good shape in regards to "stopping power".

As for legality - I wouldn't worry. There was a time when Black Talon and similar ammo was a no-no in the media, but I've only ever heard of one court case where hollow-point ammo of any type had anything to do with a court case - in the Harold Fish case. And even then, it's questionable whether the ammo actually hurt him or not.

In short, carry what you're comfortable with, and are sure functions in your gun.

And welcome to THR! :D

[ThrottleJockey]

If you ever have to use them, you are likely to have problems from the prosecutors. Due to the emotion created by the name. If I'm not mistaken, that's why they changed the name. You can get the EXACT same ammo under a different name now. I think they are called ranger sxt, or ranger something.

[kingpin008]

While it is true that you might (and I mean might) have a prosecutor who wants to bring up the old controversy about them, as long as it's a good shoot, it won't matter much. Especially since, as ThrottleJockey said, they're still marketed - just under a different name.

It's been proven that Black Talons are no more "deadly" than any other brand of hollow-point, so there's really not much that a prosecutor could say if he or she wanted to use it against you.

[Quoheleth]

Is the Winchester BT/Ranger line still at or near the top of the heap for defense ammo? IIRC, it's one of the more reasonably priced HPs on the market.

Q

[led4evr1978]

Thanks for the super quick responses guys. I do understand the response of carrying what I'm comfortable with. I guess I need to get over the look of the round, and focus on testing statistics. That's a no brainer I guess. And since they discountiuned manufacturing the "Black Talons" in 92 I think it was, any reason properly stored 27 year old ammo would have a greater chance of failing to function than something new? I have looked into the winchester rangers, and have seen them refered to as new black talons. Heck of a lot cheaper also. In your opinions...Is lighter and faster better than heavier and slower rounds in a self defense gun? Thanks again fellas.


Semper Fi

[NG VI]

Just hold onto them, if you want the same bullet design ten or fifteen years more up to date and cheaper just get yourself some Winchester Ranger-T series ammo. Won't get in any trouble for it legally, it isn't banned or illegal or anything, Winchester just pulled it from commercial sales and made it an LE-only offering. Really though, hold onto them, in five or ten years there is no telling how much you could sell them off for, or if it were me, just for collectability.




Is lighter and faster better than heavier and slower rounds in a self defense gun? Thanks again fellas.

Better designed is what you want to look for these days. For instance, the Federal HST is what I like for carry, and with HST the heavier bullet weights tend to penetrate about a half inch or so more and expand a little bit better as well. No performance lost, gained in fact, and heavyweights tend to stay within design parameters better from shorter barrels than fast light bullets. All a plus in my book.

[NG VI]

Harold Fish was railed on by the prosecutor for carrying a 10mm Auto with JHP, not Black Talons I don't think. His lawyer was about as useful as an accordion on a day of hunting, which is what really screwed him more than anything.

[akodo]

guys have been arguing about light and fast vs slow but heavy for years, and so far no one has come away with a clear winner.

In truth, most go with medium fast and medium heavy.


Now, onto your Black Talons.

The medai hype caused Winchester to rename it Ranger XTS. This means you paid a premium for a name printed on a box of cardboard.

ANY ammo that is going to be used for self defense should prove it works flawlessly in your firearm before it is trusted. This means at minimum 100 rounds fired without a hiccupp. I suspect your black talons have not proven themselves in this manner yet.

Second, while ammo can definately last a long time, it's enemy is moisture. If the black talons were sealed in surplus army ammo can, yes they are probably still good. If they were sitting on the basement shelf somewhere, they may not be. Or maybe only 1 out of the 50 has gone bad.

Carried next to the sweaty human body? Most guys cycle out their carry ammo every 6 months.


Now, onto Black Talon ammo itself. It is all media hype. Truth be told, this ammo was originally designed for deep penetration like you'd want vs a bear or wild pig. Most people aren't as deep as bear, so depending on what loading you have, it may or may not be good defensive ammo. Anyways, Wincheter chose to play up the black talon's "Talon" and talked about some BS buzzsaw like nonsenes, and jagged edge nonsense. Of course the gun ignorant media caught on and went wild. They started attributing all sorts of other BS legends like 'these can saw their way through bullet proof vests!' (in reality hollowpoints including the black talon penetrate less well than Full Metal Jacket rounds)

So, as mentioned before, Winchester eventually side-stepped this issue by renaming them Winchester Ranger XTS. Same bullet, different coating color so it was no longer black.

Well, it turns out that XTS worked best for deeper penetration than most self defense ammo needed, so Winchester tweaked the design to get Winchester Ranger T...but now almost 30 years later pretty much any and every decent ammo maker has come up with hollowpoint designs that are superior to the old Black Talon, no matter what color or name it is.

in short

the seller took advantage of your ignorance

Don't compound the mistake. Sell the ammo as a curio, or store it as a reminder to do a bit more research.

Then go out and by any namebrand premium hollowpoint. But a lot. Practice with some, store the rest in a solidly sealing ammo can. Every 6 months go to the range, fire off the carry ammo, and replace it with fresh stuff. Go to the range ever month and practice shooting with the cheapest ammo you can find. Double points if oyu bring your 22LR handgun along and practice mostly with that.

So what ammo to get? I don't know. I price shopped, picked up a load of premiums that were on sale. But here are some names to look for Supreme T, Silvertip, Hydrashock, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Ranger, Hornaday XTP,.

If you had to pin me down to 1 recomnedation, I'd say 200 grain +P gold dot

[c5_nc]

I would certainly carry a HP in 45 but not black talons, they are worth to much, you should what previous owner did, sell them on gunbroker and buy Ranger SXTs, Ranger Talons, or whatever they changed the name to.

[led4evr1978]

Really great info akodo, and very much appreciated. Thank you. I have definitely felt a little uneasy not having fired a hundered or two of these rounds through my Colt and depending on them to protect my familys lives. I have shot 20 of them, but understand that's not an adequate amount. Have never considered cycling ammo every six months. Feel much more enlightened now. I appreciate you guy's opinions and experience, and will be changing the way I do things. Once again, many thanks and much respect to you fellow patriots.

Semper Fi

[S&W-Keeper]

Save th Black Talons for show, they are to expensive, Federal Hydra Shocks are just as good.

[The_Shootist]

Shrug - if Remington Golden Sabre's (which I carry in my G19) don't inspire much fuss, why worry about Black Talons? Particularly when the name is such in the past (in our attention deficit society) that non-gun enthusiasts would have to do a Wikepedia or Google search to find out what all the fuss is about.

In fact, depending on calibre, the only reason you wouldn't / shouldn't carry them is there are equally effective and less expensive SD rounds out there.

[nathan]

Ones in my G 23 are plain Winchester JHP from Walmart. It shoots fine so Im sticking with it. A box is $ 20 .

[Leanwolf]

NG VI - "Really though, hold onto them, in five or ten years there is no telling how much you could sell them off for, or if it were me, just for collectability."

I agree. Quite a few years ago, before all the hysterical commotion by the left wing lace panties zombie media, I shot .45 ACP Black Talons regularly. Worked fine in my Colt's Govt. Models.

All at once, Winchester pulled the name and the Black Talons became collectible. I still had four full boxes (20 rounds per box) so put them away.

Last year at the Boise Gun Show, I had a table and put the four boxes on the table. Sold the four boxes for $55.00 each. I think that when I bought those Black Talon .45s, I paid about $12.00 per box.

Don't know what you paid but imagine if you hold on to them, some day a collector will give you a nice profit on your purchase.

Plenty of good, effective .45 ACP ammo out there. I prefer Fed. 230 grains Hydra-Shock in my carry Colt's L.W. Commander. Others prefer other brands. They'll all do a good job so long as you shoot accurately. :)

FWIW.

L.W.

[Griz44]

Any good grade of HP will serve the defensive function very nicely. Make sure it shoots and feeds consistently in your gun. I load my own - Hornady XTP that costs around 24 bucks a hundred. Cheap enough to practice with and still deliver serious kick butt for defense.

[Shooter973]

There are NO magic bullets......:scrutiny:
Any good hollow point that feeds 100% IN YOUR GUN is the one you want. I to use the Win Hollows from Wally World.....good and not not to expensive.

[paintballdude902]

my brother inlaw has his glock 22 loaded with them at all times but he lives in a small county knows the da sherrif and town cop so he doesnt worry

[Leanwolf]

PAINTBALLDUDE - "my brother inlaw has his glock 22 loaded with them at all times but he lives in a small county knows the da sherrif and town cop so he doesnt worry"


The cartridges won't make a bit of difference, so long as the shoot is a "good shoot." If his shooting of a person is a "bad shoot," or unjustified, it won't matter if he knows God himself. A "bad shoot" will mean some very, very serious legal problems for him.

Most important thing is to always make sure the shooting is justified.

L.W.

[Boba Fett]

I carry the RA45T rounds and I'm not really worried about what a lawyer will say.

If I have to use them, I'd prefer that my family and I are alive to face a lawyer.

Why do I carry them? Well, simply put, it has nothing to do with the "evil" factor that some have associated with them.

It has a great deal to do with what I read about them versus other rounds on this site:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo.htm

And this page on the same site: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm


Since my carry is a P220, this was an extremely helpful site.

It was a bit of a tough decision actually; I was torn between the Winchester RA45T and the Federal HydraShok, but I opted for the Winchester because of the uniform expansion shown.

I have had no problem with the RA45T in my Sig P220.

If you are interested in obtaining some RA45T at a decent price, check out this site (though it is down for maintenance right now) http://www.proload.com/
You can still call them at the number on that page.

Welcome to the forum led4evr1978. Make sure you also visit SecondAmendmentMarch.com

[led4evr1978]

I greatly appreciate all the higly knowledgeable input from all you guys. I've definitely learned a lot more than I expected to when I posted my question. I appreciate all of you taking the time to educate me a little bit. Many thanks for all the information.

[lonegunman]

The weirdo factor of carrying fifteen year old poser ammo would offset any actual improvement in stopping power.

Ditto for "Extrmeme Shock" or "Drop dead Instantly" or anything else sold in Cheaper than Dirt.

[akodo]

note: do not buy ammo like this either.
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/
Exploding pants, ninjas, and media hype are NEVER good reasons to buy ammo.

The good stuff has a proven track record, sells itself based on performance in relatively unbaised tests being fired through different media into ballistic gel to get an idea how it works in the human body, and in general is also heavily marketed toward law enforcment.

I believe this is what the poster above meant by 'sold in cheaper than dirt'

let me amend that to 'only sold in cheaper than dirt' because you can get some good defensive ammo through them relatively cheaply in bulk


http://www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg


good stuff
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM517-1.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM509-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/15833-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/62121-5.html

[Wopasaurus]

I love the fact that the special ops guy is the same one in all 3 pictures... however... they just darkened his face up in the 3rd one...

[Chrontius]

Ranger SXT is the new Black Talon, without the black anti-corrosion coating.

For the record, SXT = Same eXact Thing. :D

[justinvoigts]

In regards to the talons i have 14 of my own in 40 they are somewhat hard to find i have a few boxes of ranger t series in 40 cal also in 9mm all mags i own for the 2 guns are loaded with these in the nightstands they are far more superior to all other winchester rounds that are out there go on their website and check it out the expansion is superior to the sxt and talons and the lubilox coating is clear not black like the black talon check out the site 9mm expands to 40 cal size 40 cal expands to 45 cal size and 45 must be seen to be believed check it educate yourself

[rscalzo]

If you ever have to use them, you are likely to have problems from the prosecutors

What??? Maybe they will question the shirt you are wearing too. If you are brought up on criminal charges, anything and everything can become an issue until the judge rules otherwise. Being aware of the laws involving deadly force and its use will be more important that the load carried.

As far as the Black Talon being all that great, doubt it. We handled a shooting point blank with a 1911 loaded with the original Black Talon 230 grain load. It didn't expand at all as if did not hit bone.

As someone stated earlier, there is no magic bullet. You might as well just color a standard WW HP with a magic marker. I do laugh when I see some paying ridiculous amounts for a box of them. I still have some left over from our departmental ammo rotations. They will get shot at one point.

[rcmodel]

Black Talons are a generation or two behind todays bullet designs.

In other words, they weren't all that great back then, and they sure aren't that great today.

The .45 ACP in particular often failed to expand at all.

rc

[AgentAdam]

*WARNING* The "Supreme" SXT are de-fanged.

Get the "Winchester Ranger-T(talon)" series

[jbrown50]

The latest iteration of this design is the Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1. The FBI liked the way they performed in their combination barrier penetration and jello tests so it's been adopted as their current issue round in 40 S&W and 9mm.

Aside from the fancy long name, they're tactical Bonded Ranger T's. I have a box of older Black Talons and when comparing the bullets the difference isn't readily apparent. There's the color of course and the older bullets have a slightly deeper hollow point, that's all. It just goes to show what the ammo manufacturers have been able to do over the years in tweeking a basically good design using different lead alloy combinations and recently, core-jacket welding.

I carry the 147 gr. 9mm PDX1 in my Kahr PM9. They feed fine through my PM9, are very accurate, have low recoil so follow up shots are very quick and are relatively cheap.

[kd7nqb]

What you found ammo? That's the surprise right there.

[altitude_19]

Only trust it if you've tested it extensively (100-200 rds is what I prefer)yourself in your weapon. If you can barely find enough to load the magazines you've got, you won't be able to test it extensively will you? I'm not about to trust an ammunition I can only keep one box of for the rest of my life. I change out defensive ammo atleast every 2 years. How often do you change it out and what do you intend to do when you can't find more Black Talon?

[84B20]

I agree with NG VI, the defense attorney was useless in that case. He should have brought up the fact that a hollow point is less likely to exit the perp and injure an innocent bystander that is why it is preferred. IMHO. I recently switched to Winchester PDX1's for the simple reason it is a standard FBI carry and how can a prosecutor argue with that. By the way, several years ago I tested Black Talons by firing into a 55 gal. drum filled with water. Here is what it looked like...

[rondog]

Hmmmm, I still have a full box of .357 BT's, guess I should hang onto 'em.

[AgentAdam]

Now that i think about it I haven't had or heard of any decent gun that wouldn't feed a Black/Ranger Talon. I think they are a great bullet profile, not to mention the mushroom affect and the shredding the talons do.

[flrfh213]

i run "deer stopper" or something like that from Georgia arms in my 357 mag and if that don't stop them i will look for a deer to shoot.. but if you ask me, and i guess you kinda did. the follow up shot is more important to me than brand..

had a chat with a gunsmith and he was carrying a .32. i told him i had a 357 and don't think i would trust a 32 till he pointed out a simple fact.... he simply asked if i wanted to get shot with a 32.... doh.... nope so i guess 2x.32 will work for him in a pinch. but get the follow up shot if it is needed your life may depend on it...

[Boba Fett]

Love the RA45T out of my Sig P220.

I didn't get them because of hype, I spent a number of hours researching the performance of the round in terms of consistent and good expansion as well as reliability and grouping.

These links are probably what finally convinced me. And of course I practiced with a box or two of them...very accurate and the SIG eats them with out any problem.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm One of the best links for showing how hollow points expand IMHO.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo_files/image022.jpg

Versus something like this Federal 230-gr Hydrashok
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo_files/image020.jpg

Or these 165-gr PowRball
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo_files/image006.jpg


Of course how the round will actually perform on a person, through layers of clothing, or during monsoon season is often the subject of heated debate. Yes, real life is different than a mud test or a ballistics gel test. These links are simply to show the potential. They help cut through some of the hype.

As far as the legal problems, I wouldn't worry about it much. Buy what works best for you with your firearm. Buy what your research and experience leads you to believe will protect you and your family best and have a good lawyer on the speed dial. You have to be alive to worry about the legal issues...

[MR.LOKI]

Ahhhhh the myth of the uber deadly black talon lives, at least he didnt load +p+ loads.

[Frank Ettin]

They seem to be something of a collectors' item. Also, the bulet is an old design. Federal HST, Remington Golden Sabre and Speer Gold Dot are probably better choices these days. Keep the Black Talons as an historical curiosity and use one of the others.

[mbt2001]

Why bother with the potential idiot activist lawyer lawsuits??

[Hungry Seagull]

I run Speer Gold Dot 230 grain .45's for carry ammo. And the same grain full metal Jackets for plinking targets.

I recall the so called black talon problem way back when, I think we are way past that now considering what is availible to civilians out there today. Some like it hot and fast, others slow and massive.

Badguy: Banabanabanbanabanbanbanabnababababang.
Me: Bang Bang.. hello 911?

[novaDAK]

Save the Black Talons, and get some Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, HST, or Ranger ammo. Can't go wrong with any of these.

[JSmith]

Anyone have an opinion on HydraShoks in .45 ACP? I have a box of those in the nightstand drawer.

Good, bad, or indifferent?

[MJZZZ]

I had feeding problems with the Hydrashoks in my Kimber Ultra CDP, the Winchester RA45T do fine. It has to be the rounder nose. I carry Winchester Ranger T's in all my carry guns. Mike

[Hungry Seagull]

Middle thumbnail picture in previous post number 33 shows what the Talon does or did the way I recall it. Not only it expands but slices blood vessals, nerves and other important pathways inside a human body as it penetrates. I recall several news cases of the time where the Trauma center doctors were complaining of the extensive damage that the talons did. Sure, they can stop the bleeding, but the patient may have a nerve severed forever and they might as well amputate the arm or something because it's useless to the patient; deadweight.

[tkopp]

Just as a note; if you're using the shorter barrel models (as I believe you said you were) of the 1911, make sure you get the +p Rangers. The standard load 230gr bullets don't always have the energy to open properly when fired from a barrel under 4".

[Portedglock26]

I have found out the hard way that SPEER is pretty much the big kid on the playground. Now the hard part is figuring out 115's or 124 out of a glock 26 ported barrel! I know with 115 you get the crack and flash but you always get the 14" of pen. I just spent 32 bucks on 20 124 speer GDHP's there nickel plated casing. They just look better then the corbons and you can tell!

[Zerodefect]

another vote for: Save the black talons as a collector item. They're too old for carry purposes. And you'd have to shoot a box or two anyway to make sure they were reliable in your gun.

As others said, get a few boxes of Winchester Ranger T, Federal HST, Rem Golden Sabre, or Speer Lawman.

[andre73]

Check out my test of the black talon in .45 ACP

Black Talon Expansion Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ENh1-V_mUg)

I have only the one box. Bad little round... :what::what:

[mljdeckard]

Congratulations on your box of overpriced magic beans.

I don't mean to be harsh on you, but the hype and lore of Black Talons is so well documented already. Put them back in the box and keep them as collector's items. Then load up with Winchester Ranger JHP ammo, it's the exact same thing. I use 230 gr HSTs, but the real world difference probably isn't worth worrying about.

Could they get you in trouble? Yes and no, in that it shouldn't matter what gun or bullets you use as long as it's a clean shoot, but yes in that for every norm, there is a D.A. who has been sleeping on the couch who decided to take it out on YOU today. I go back to WHY would you want to use them if there is more modern JHP ammo that wasn't in the news headlines by name as a cop killer?

[mljdeckard]

Oh, and as for the story about the surgeon who said that Black Talons caused sharp pieces that are hazardous to remove, he sounds to me like the Futureweapons guy, being just emotionally overwhelmed by things that are neither new nor improved. Does he think that ANY jacket doesn't have sharp edges when a surgeon tries to remove it? I said at the time, and I'll say it again now, The coroner doesn't have to work nearly as fast as a surgeon does. He'll be fine. :)