[DigitalWarrior]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/10/01/vanishing.southerners.ap/index.html

The study found that only Republicans, political conservatives and the wealthy bucked this trend, keeping the same percentage of self-described "Southerners."

As for Fleming, she said she understands why conservatives continue to classify themselves as Southerners. "In general, when you're conservative, you don't like change," said Fleming.


Talk about erroneous conclusions...

This is related to firearms because as the nature of the south (majority firearms supporters) changes, so will the support for the RKBA.

[Bill Hook]

I never thought of Oklahoma as the South (and don't think many others do too) and wouldn't be surprised if Texans wouldn't consider themselves Southerners, just Texans. Missouri has a better claim to being Southern than Oklahoma, since it's one of the 15 stars on the Confederate flag, along w/ Maryland, which was also excluded (rightfully so, since it should be called "Southern" New Jersey).

[chaim]

Missouri has a better claim to being Southern than Oklahoma, since it's one of the 15 stars on the Confederate flag, along w/ Maryland, which was also excluded (rightfully so, since it should be called "Southern" New Jersey). I don't know, it depends on where you are in MD. Central MD is very liberal politically and socially it has more in common with the mid-Atlantic region than the south (of course this is the area most people think of when they think about MD- the corridor between Baltimore and DC). Western MD is weird, liberal in some things and conservative in others. Western PA and W. VA are the best comparison. Southern MD and the Eastern Shore on the other hand are very southern, some people who have been there for generations almost have a southern accent, and a good percentage of the people living there would consider themselves southern. It is also usually a very conservative area.

[J.J.]

I agree with Bill Hook. Becasue, I am not a southerner I am a Texan.

[synoptic]

The way in which people refer to themselves may change, but the culture is still alive and well in many places. Go to Houston and you don't see it as much, but head out to Shiner or Moulton and it's there. The problem with refering to onself as a southerner is connotations of racism and the civil war. Fortunately, though, I don't have this problem, I'm a Texan.

[RustyHammer]

Around these parts, ...

" WAY UP NORTH ..... STARTS AROUND SHREVEPORT "!

:D

[Gunhamr]

I have never seen a Confederate battle flag with 15 stars. Mine has 13 and flies in front of my house every day. Racist ?, No. Conservative? Yes.
Southern ? 'Til the day I die and proud of it. All I am doing is paying respect and honour to my ancestors who fought for the Confederacy.We have White History Month every month of the year where I live

[Bill Hook]

My bad, 13.

[Gunhamr]

There were only eleven states that actually seceded. They were Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana. Kentucky and Missouri had stars representing them on the flag because of the number of sympathizers who were residents of the states. Both Missouri and Kentucky were occupied by Federal troops during the War of Northern Aggresion but were never officially seceded. Missouri had a government in exile in Texas but the Missouri government was Federally controlled in the state. There were more battles fought in Tennessee than any other state.

[sm]

I'm southern born and raised...beats the heck out of admitting I'm from Arkansas. Still here.
:D

[bobs1066]

RustyHammer, thanks for the best laugh I had all day! For me, Way up north was Fort Smith. :D

[gypsy3]

Heck...Oklahoma never even became a state until 42 years after the civil war. 1906...Sure never thought of myself as a southerner and don't know of anyone else here that does.....Glad Vanderbilt gave me an identity.

[Uncle Ethan]

I saw the original article about the vanishing Southerner, and it was no surprise. Up our road is a couple that moved to Atlanta from New York about 14 years ago. Four years ago they moved here [ behind enemy lines in PRK] and after we met them they always complained about never being made to feel welcome in Atlanta. I explained that their liberal ideas and sarcastic manner wouldn't have gone over very well in the South. They indicated that most of the larger cities were liberal and made up largely of people from out of the area.
I was ostrasized by my family in the late 60's when I joined the Republican party. I was reminded that it was the party of Northern Aggression. Now 30 odd years later most all of them vote Republican because of the nature of the Democratic party.

[bountyhunter]

I see sotherners all the time. I watch COPS regularly.

[Uncle Ethan]

Hey Bountyhunter, you got a single or double wide. 98% of watchers of Cops are in trailers, and I figured there was a reason you recognized Southerns so quick.:p

[bountyhunter]

We in a house now... keep the trailer parked out back for guests.

[StuporDave]

RustyHammer typed -

Around these parts, ... " WAY UP NORTH ..... STARTS AROUND SHREVEPORT "!

Hell, Rusty! We always figured YankeeLand was north of I-12! :evil:

Dave

[Red Dane]

Us Southerners are still here ;) promise!

[greyhound]

I don't know, it depends on where you are in MD

Nowadays we may be on par with New Jersey, but my Pop grew up under Jim Crow in Baltimore (he still tells a story about getting chucked in the pokey for being a white man in a black jazz club), so for my money (sadly) if it had Jim Crow, it (was) South.

So what I'm trying to say is that at least in the late 1950's, early 1960's the MD/PA border really divided North and South.

Not sure how relevant that is, just thought I'd share...

[hankrearden2000]

As a Native Oklahoman, I take exception to Oklahoma not being considered Southern. Southeastern Oklahoma is even known as "Little Dixie." Most Oklahomans, including the Indians, immigrated from the South. During the Civil War, the only governments that existed in what is now Oklahoma and was the Indian Territory at the time, the Five Civilized Tribes, all seceded with the Creeks & the Cherokee experiencing their own civil wars to decide which side they would support.

The last Confederate general to surrender was none other than Brigadier General Stand Waitie of the First and Second Cherokee Mounted Rifles, Oklahoma indians all.

[Orthonym]

I'm surrounded by people from MI, Ohio, Indiana, Ill, etc. Just hearing them talk is like having somebody run a corkscrew into my ear. "Lack Bahb in thuh classit." (That's "Lock Bob in the closet," as said in Michigan):fire:

[MuzzleBlast]

http://www.rebelstuff.com/confedimages/amerbrthstkr.jpg

http://www.rebelstuff.com/

[Smoke]

Southerners are still here....you just can't see us from the road.:neener:

[Gunhamr]

Michael Grissom is from Oklahoma, If you don't think Oklahoma is Southern, you should read some of his books, I highly recommend Southern by the Grace of God, The Last Rebel Yell, and Can The South Survive. Hang on to your Confederate money boys; the South will rise again. And speaking of the Cherokees. my grandmother was a Cherokee from Mississippi, a heritage of which I am exceedingly proud. My grandfather was a Lieutenant in the 10th Arkansas Infantry and his older brother was Regimental Surgeon of the same. Man, it's great to be Southern!!!!

[Partisan_Ranger]

I would strongly suggest that anyone that doubts Oklahoma's southern roots and heritage look at these following pages.:

http://rebelcherokee.tripod.com/intro.html
http://www.rootsweb.com/~itcivwar/civilind.htm

We in Oklahoma know we are Southern! We are first and foremost Oklahoman's! But, as it is commonly said we are Southern by the grace of God. If you will look at records, offical records, The I.T. commited more of it's population to the war effort then ANYONE else...to include Virginia! The I.T. sustained greater loss of life and destruction then ANYONE other then Virginia.

Our mission in the I.T. was to prevent the North from invading deep into Texas, and by God not one time durning the war did a blue uniform cross the red river other then as a Prisoner. To say were not southern....well is a lack of knowledge and grasp of history.

Pround and Southern,
Partisan Ranger

[Bill Hook]

What grasp of history? Oklahoma wasn't even a state.

[Partisan_Ranger]

Yes Mr. Hook,
Your right we were only the I.T. in that point in history. If you will notice thats what I stated as well when I posted. So what is your point? It does not negate the truth of the facts I posted. It does not mean that I.T. history nor the actual physical location of the territory changed when it went to statehood. I believe hankrearden2000 made the case for Oklahoma as well in his post.


The I.T. was and Oklahoma is a part of the South, it sided and fought with the South, I.T. General Stand Waitie was the last Confederate General to lay down his sword. To further make my point for you address the following url

www.geocities.com/heartland/7658/itunits.htm

I also suggest you examine the other urls I posted Mr. Hook, if you are still confused I would say that you might contact the Oklahoma historical society. BTW Oklahoma Capital flew the Confederate Cherokee flag for a number of years before bowing to PC and not replacing it on the mall at the capital.

Partisan Ranger

[gypsy3]

Well isn't that special....

I'm a card carrying , full blooded Cherokee (GWY...Tsa-la-Ghi....to you other Cherokees)
and was born and have lived in Oklahoma 57 years.....I have relatives who died on the Trail of Tears, and a darn good knowledge of how my Cherokee brothers and sisters as well as the rest of the Oklahomans feel about being southerners, northerners, or anything else...

Picture this.....The white man took the Cherokee land in the east and sent them on a forced march, a foot, half way across the nation. Many died from hunger, disease, and just plain gave up on living. Now..with this in mind, does anyone honestly think that the Cherokee gave a Rats Patute whether the Northern white men or the southern white men was beating up on each other? Of course not...The Cherokee wanted nothing to do with either...Stand Waitie was the last to lay down his weapon because he was a man of honor who gave his word. He didn't quit until all hope was lost.
It would have been the same if it was for the North and the north had made the promises....

The Cherokee nation as well as other Native American tribes wanted to stay neutral at the out break of the war of 1861....Stand Waitie couldn't give a crap whose side he fought on. The reason and the only reason that GWY threw in with the south is because the south promised to give back our land if they won....There was no special southern feelings..Hell...we would have fought for the north or even the French (Wash my mouth out) if they would have made the same promise first...
I have no feelings of being Southern, Northern, or Piss-Ant Dom......
And I dont know anyone who considers themselves a southerner. Perhaps there are those in Oklahoma that do feel a bit tied to the South...I don't know any of em.......My history lessons of the Cherokee People comes to me from the people who truly knew how we lived and felt...It has been passed down from generation to generation. I think I will believe them...

[Orthonym]

I take it you're not entirely happy about Andy Jackson's ideas concerning Executive Privilege?:eek:

Edit: changed grin smily to eek smily

[Partisan_Ranger]

gypsy3,
I have no doubt that you may have insight into history that many others don't. I was born and raised here as well, have lived here 41 years and regardless who I spoke to Indian or white most have felt they were Oklahomans and southerners. I have heard the history of the tribes, have family and close friends that are card carrying Cherokee, Seminols, Creeks, my grandfather was 1/4 Osage. He and I had many many long talks about how the Indian had suffered and how they had been ultimatly treated. These things are just plain truth there is no debating them.

My point here however was to make people understand were the majority stood in relation to the Southern cause because if they were not recognized for the stand they took they could be forgotten. Granted the Traditionalist wanted to remain neutral at the on set of the war. But, there were many others who where prominate mixed bloods who felt they had much to loose if the Union was to enforce it's will.

They knew if the Goverment would indeed do what they were doing to the southern states, it would be only a matter of time before they would be there enforcing their will on the tribes again. Involving themselves in tribal matters more and more, asserting there authority over them regardless of the fact that they are a sovereign people & nation and should be in control of their own destiny. Because in the end, the war was about states rights, not slavery. There were many whos insight had told them that trade was being affected and knew that if they wanted to continue to trade outside the Territory as they had with the south that standing with the south was necessary.

There is no secret that the tribes had thier own cause they were fighting for or agenda they were addressing, so to an extent they shared that comminality with the South. They wished to be left alone unobstructed by further Federal involvment. I'm sure there was much concern about involving themselves, but as the saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The very fact that the Confederacy was rising up to break away from the very goverment that had stolen their lands and done so many other things to them, I find it difficult to think they would have been so ready to take the word of or accept the promises of the federalist, Especialy after all that had happen in the past. Even if part of it would mean regaining the land, so many lies told to them, so many promises broken by that goverment already, scores of deceptions, how could they trust them to keep their word? Memories are long and affronts are not forgotten with ease.

In the end they were fighting for themselves and inadvertantly the Southern cause, because the two agendas though not the same did have simular goals, to be rid of overbearing Goverment involvment in local affairs and control of their own destiny. The tribes were seeking an opportunity to aquire the land that had been taken, plus punish a goverment that had murdered thier people and caused hardship beyond imagine.

My grandfather always said, be proud of who you are...regardless.

Partisan Ranger