pocket gun choices between these three


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Milkmaster
February 9, 2009, 08:44 PM
WHile I love the PPK, I have found it just too large for my pocket carry. I went on a pocket pistol hunt this weekend at pawn shops, gun stores, and even a gun show. My final choice will be my CCW firearm, so I will buy what is comfortable and suits me. The price will not matter as much as my ability to handle and hit where I aim. The 3 choices I came out with at the end of the day that I would consider for me are the following...

Kahr 380 - I noticed it was a bit heavier pistol, & I liked the feel of this pistol over the KelTec. It was pretty stiff new, & the range owner said to expect about 3-400 rounds before it would break-in and work jam free. Is this true and should be expected? I was told the blowback design would mean less recoil? I have never owned a Kahr and know little about them.

Micro Desert Eagle 380 - Sure is an ugly pistol, but I liked the feel after handling it. The Micro was also all metal and had heft to it.


KelTec P3AT A friend of mine owns one of these. To tell the truth I couldn't hit much with it. I blamed it more on the lightweight therefore more recoil. The others above weigh more, & I would expect them to have less recoil. True?


Pick from these three for me if price was NOT a factor. The Ruger LCP is not a choice until I can see one and see better reviews on it. For now I am leaving it out.

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FMJMIKE
February 9, 2009, 08:47 PM
Check out a Bersa concealed carry .380. That would be my choice!

telomerase
February 9, 2009, 08:57 PM
I was told the blowback design would mean less recoil?

Blowbacks kick more, and Kahrs aren't blowback. So good thing you're checking everything out ;)

benderx4
February 9, 2009, 09:08 PM
Seecamp LWS380 - best you can buy!

Boba Fett
February 9, 2009, 09:16 PM
P-3AT

Absolutely love it for a pocket gun. At 7 yards, I can shred the bullseye and my hand at the same time :D

That's really my only complaint with the P-3AT: It isn't as fluffed and buffed as the Ruger LCP so it tends to shred your hand after about 200 rounds (the number the manual says to put through it to break it in). But it is not supposed to be a range gun and it has never failed on me in any way and it hasn't has the significant issues that the LCP has had.

If you aren't in a rush to get the pocket gun, wait about 6 months to a year and get the LCP after all the beta testing has been done by others. I plan to do just that. And I'll probably keep the P-3AT as well just because it has been such a good gun.

I haven't had a chance to see a Kahr 380 yet, but what I've read seems very promising. And I do like Kahr's generally solid construction of their firearms (haven't owned one, just played with them).

Also make sure you do some research into a good 380 round. I like the Hornady Critical Defense (https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=a7d03db2762c87a72e1b5b88c3b46514&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=d74d77c83cf2981df88ee671b099b343) stuff. It shoots nicely out of the P-3AT.

Dr_2_B
February 9, 2009, 09:59 PM
I'm sorry. Did you say THESE THREE ONLY just to receive two immediate replies suggesting a Seecamp and a Bersa?

Milky, I am so sorry (and embarrassed) for us respondents.

I happen to like the P3AT, but I haven't fired the other two.

Boba Fett
February 9, 2009, 10:35 PM
I'm sorry. Did you say THESE THREE ONLY just to receive two immediate replies suggesting a Seecamp and a Bersa?

Milky, I am so sorry (and embarrassed) for us respondents.

No need to be sorry matheath, one of the possible poll questions was
Neither of these for a 380 pocket pistol
which seems to indicate that people should post what their "neither" choice is if the OP hasn't ruled it out. Never know, the OP might not have thought of something. Speaking of which Milkmaster, if you haven't looked at Bobo's pocket comparison chart, (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=171820) you should.



But I agree that the Bersa certainly doesn't fit. It isn't really a "pocket pistol" IMO and since the OP already said that the PPK was out because of size, I don't see how the Bersa would be any better.

The Seecamp LWS380 is a tad (and by a "tad" I mean a lot) on the expensive side. I have not shot one, but I just can't justify the price considering that there are plenty of other pocket pistols which will accomplish the same goal for a lot less. But if you have the money Milkmaster, you might consider it if you haven't already.


I'm with you on the P-3AT matheath. Great gun...we should form a club :D

ByAnyMeans
February 9, 2009, 10:47 PM
Love my p3at. I am new to handgun shooting but i'm able to make c.o.m. shots to seven yards. It works for me as a pocket gun that can go anywhere.

Onmilo
February 9, 2009, 11:30 PM
I own a P-32 and enjoy it.
Excellent little walking around guns.

If you like the .380 over the .32 acp then I would also recommend the P3AT or the Ruger clone LCP pistol.

I really can't vouch for the Kahr as I know of too many folks who have had some major problems with them and know nothing of the Desert Eagle mini gun having not had one in hand as of yet.

MostlyHarmless
February 10, 2009, 12:18 AM
I'm fond of my P3AT but there are two things to keep in mind. The first is that Kel Tec has reportedly had inconsistent quality in the past and you have to expect to do some of the final testing yourself and send the thing back if you got a lemon. They're inexpensive guns despite the good design and so that's not unreasonable. Just don't let it be a surprise.

The second thing to consider is that a carry weapon is a personal choice and some people have tried very hard to like the Kel Tec and found that they just can't. Part of it is anatomy and if your hand shape and strength is wrong the P3AT might not work for you. Part of it is the recoil. Part of it is the accuracy, and if you're into shooting bullseyes at 25 yards you might be disappointed.

357sigRog
February 10, 2009, 12:45 AM
I agree the poll does say neither, do give the Bersa a look too. I've owned a Bersa for years, no malfuntions and very accurate.

Milkmaster
February 10, 2009, 07:19 AM
Do you guys think my original question/poll will be inaccurate since the Kahr and the micro are relatively new guns? My local firing range doesn't rent any of the pocket pistols. I liked the Kel Tec until i shot it. I don't know if it is because of it being a pocket pistol in the first place and not comfortable, or if it is less comfortable than other pocket pistols for my hands. Trying to figure this out before I lay down the green.

rhoggman
February 10, 2009, 08:37 AM
I have a few things to say here:

1. I can't knock the Kahr, but Initial reports had the Kahr up around 13 or 14 ounces. I looked on Kahr's website and it says "Pistol 9.97 ounces (w/o magazine)". Why would they give the wieght without the magazine? I think they know their pistol being a few ounces more than the Kel-Tec is a negative for them. At 14 ounces you can buy small frame revolvers that come in much more adventageous "power packages" than the .380 ACP. For this reason I think this market will be ruled by the sub-10 ounce pistols.

2. Micro Desert Eagle - I have only heard positive things about this gun, other than it's beauty. It is slightly cheaper than the Kahr, and still a little heavier than the Kahr as well. The Micro Desert Eagle is an imported gun and is known elsewhere as the "ZVI Kevin".

3. Kel-Tec is not a bad little piece, and many trust their lives with it. I would venture to say that most of the kinks have long since been worked out, but the P3AT does lack in design features. It is also much lighter, and more cost efective than the Kel-Tec, and the Micro-DE. If you are not accurate with the Kel-Tec I doubt you will be much more accurate with any of these small pistols without much practice.

4. Personally I would want to stay light, and cheap when it comes to the pocket gun, which is why I would spend my money on the Ruger LCP. The LCP improves upon the Kel-Tec design, and adds a couple of nice features. The Taurus 738 TCP will improve upon this design even more, and add a couple of more features. For now I believe in this market the LCP is still the best bet.

One last little tidbit... If I wanted to spend $500 on a pocket 380 with 7 shots, it would probably go to the Mico Desert Eagle because this is not a new gun. It is reliable and proven, and that is hard to beat, but I just cannot justify it when there are lighter, cheaper, reliable pistols available for the taking. Like I stated before, if you want a heavier pistol (10 ounces or more), and you are willing to shell out $500 or more you may as well get something with a lot more power.

Then the debate becomes .357 Mag vs. .380 ACP/ 5 shots or 7 shots/ RECOIL and for most people in a defense situation the caliber is going to make the decision. Although shooting a 12 ounce .357 is not exactly the most pleasant thing to do in this world, most people will put up with it when it comes to defense, otherwise they just toss some .38SPL+P down the pipe, which is still going to put the .380 to shame.

Spyvie
February 10, 2009, 10:19 AM
If you are looking at the Micro Eagle, you might consider an NAA Guardian .380.

I'm pretty happy with mine, much more "pocketable" than the PPK, and much more trustworthy that my LCP.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j260/spyvie/380sjpg.jpg

EDIT: As to the original question... anything but the KelTec;)

usp9
February 10, 2009, 10:21 AM
Small is important for pocket carry and the smallest is the Seecamp.

Anna's Dad
February 10, 2009, 02:37 PM
I use the Kel-Tec but if it doesn't work for you, you shouldn't buy it.

I've never owned or fired any of the others although I did own a Kahr MK-9 for a while. It was a nice gun, just too big/heavy for pocket carry so I sold it.

CoRoMo
February 10, 2009, 04:38 PM
I'm a Kel Tec fan.

CDH
February 10, 2009, 04:52 PM
WHile I love the PPK, I have found it just too large for my pocket carry. I went on a pocket pistol hunt this weekend at pawn shops, gun stores, and even a gun show. My final choice will be my CCW firearm, so I will buy what is comfortable and suits me. The price will not matter as much as my ability to handle and hit where I aim. The 3 choices I came out with at the end of the day that I would consider for me are the following...

That's me to a "T". I bought my PPK brand new in 1984 and it was my primary "deep conceal" pistol most of those years when there was no such thing as a CCW license. It was the only good pistol I had that could be carried without worrying about being made.

But I recently went a different way than your choices.

In the end, I bought both a Rohrbaugh R9s Stealth (built like a Rolex watch and in 9mm but the same size as a Ruger LCP), and then I bought an LCP just for grins and because everyone is talking about them.

I am especially tickled with my R9s, and it's replaced the PPK totally. The R9s is significantly smaller than the PPK and quite a bit lighter as well, plus it's a better defense weapon being that it's 9mm.

The LCP is the exact same size as the R9s, but it's clearly not as well made although I think it's a deal for the price (around $300). However, it's build quality is also clearly better than the P3AT, one of the pistols you're considering and which is virtually identical in size, weight, and operation.

If price isn't a factor, then the Rohrbaugh is the one for you. You'll compare it to your PPK and wonder how you ever carried that big, heavy, "beast" that only gave you .380 protection.
Plus, I think you'll agree with me that the build quality of your PPK is stellar, and of all the ones you mention, none of them are made as well as the PPK.
Only the Rohrbaugh is made as well (I think better) than the PPK.

http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/product/prod_set.html

mrt949
February 10, 2009, 07:29 PM
SEECAMP only way to go save for the best .even if it's a 32. it is my E D C :)

Milkmaster
February 10, 2009, 07:56 PM
CDH, You didn't say what price a Rohrbaugh R9s Stealth pistol goes for $$? What price range are they. I have not seen those locally at any gun store here.

I say that price is not a factor. I mean to say that the difference between a $300 KelTec and a $500 Kahr would not stop me if I liked the Kahr. I don't however see myself getting the Seecamp for $1000 although it looks and sounds great. I guess there has to be a limit to my madness :)

Thanks for all who have replied so far. I definitely have more looking to do. I am still open to discussion.

f4t9r
February 10, 2009, 07:59 PM
I voted neither and suggest the Sig P230 /P232

Boba Fett
February 10, 2009, 08:17 PM
I voted neither and suggest the Sig P230 /P232

I'm a fan of the Sig also, but aren't the P230 and P232 both about the same size as the PPK? And the OP said that the PPK was out because of it's size, so...

polekitty
February 10, 2009, 08:45 PM
Frankly, I don't like any of those three! My choice is my "little" S&W model 65 with the hammer spur removed. Why? I can't find any holster for it (that I like) so it ends up in my pocket!

gglass
February 10, 2009, 09:04 PM
Ruger LCP

My constant companion:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8876/myredlcpel5.jpg

skoro
February 10, 2009, 09:13 PM
My only experience with any of them is the Kel-Tec. I've owned 3 Kel-Tecs, including the P-3AT and they've all performed very well; no problems. The P-3AT is so compact and lightweight that it truly is a go-with-you-anywhere pistol.

I recommend it.

shootistpd27
February 10, 2009, 09:40 PM
I recently bought the ruger LCP. I love it. I am a cop whose backup gun has got to be effective but concealable. It fits on my ankle and I cant tell its there. When Im off duty it fits in any pocket. I can finally wear my shirts tucked in without having my glock protruding from my waistline. I shot it and it is very accurate and due to the magazine grips make it very comfortable to fire. P.S. I bought one after the recall and have no worries about leaving one in the pipe.

denfoote
February 11, 2009, 04:04 AM
I normally pocket carry a Glock 26, although, I can fit a Glock 23 in, just barely!!

The G26 weighs about as much as the PPK.
The former weighs 19.75 oz and the latter weighs 20.8 oz!!!
Given the expanded on board ammunition capability, and increased stopping power of the Parabellum round the Glock is to be favored.

http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm G26

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10002&catalogId=13152&langId=-1&productId=58944&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=43802 PPK

Now, as touching the concept of pocket depth, and for a lack of a better term at 1:36 AM, "lugging" the gun around, I wear standard Wrangler cargo pants purchased off the rack at my local Wallyworld. I do, however, have a decent belt. It's my contention that a decent belt covers a multitude of concealed carry sins!!!! After awhile, the weight of the Glock is unnoticeable, provided you have a decent belt holding the rig up!!

As far as a holster goes, I find that the cheap nylon pocket holster that I bought off of e-bay for $10 if memory serves me well, works perfectly!!

http://usera.ImageCave.com/denfoote/Glock26003-copy.jpg

The above is said holster with my G26 contained therein.

Now for my point in all this.
There is no need to carry a low power round from the nineteenth century (I can hear the howls of my detractors even now)!!

To all of them, yeah, I do own a PPK/S AND a KT P3AT.
The Kel-Tec is loaded and sitting on my bedroom dresser. I use it for slipping into the pocket of my swim trunks to go to the mailbox, or to the local stop and rob during the summer.
The PPK/S is part of my Walther collection. ;)

CDH
February 11, 2009, 07:17 AM
CDH, You didn't say what price a Rohrbaugh R9s Stealth pistol goes for $$? What price range are they. I have not seen those locally at any gun store here.

A brand new R9s from a dealer is going to set you back a smidgeon more than a .380 Seecamp. I paid $1150 for my Stealth, and it was money very well spent.

But I've spent it and it's over. The R9s will be with me the rest of my life, so I now look at it as "free" because it's bought and paid for, it's the best you can buy at any price, and I've found nothing better for "deep conceal" carrying.

I also look at it as a self-defense "tool", and I don't mind spending money on good tools that do the job better than any other tool I could buy.

No, the Rohrbaugh isn't for everybody. But you won't find a percentage of unhappy owners anywhere near that of people who have gone a "cheaper" route.
In all fairness, I originally was going to get the .380 Seecamp (even at it's high price), but the long waiting list plus the fact that's it's "only" a .380 quickly changed my mind and had me going for the Rohrbaugh.

It's one of the "happier" gun purchases I've made in many years.

Milkmaster
February 11, 2009, 02:47 PM
Since I started this thread, I guess I should post what my final decision was to the thread discussion.

I ended up ordering a Ruger LCP! I know this is not one of the choices I posted. Let me explain...

I ordered a Ruger LCP on a local gun store reccommendation, because if I don't like it, there seems to be a long line of folks willing to buy it for about what I am paying for it. So I don't have to worry too much about keeping it should I decide the LCP is not for me. I can get most of my money back and then upgrade to something else.

I almost went with the Keltec for the opinons I heard on it, but having shot one of them again yesterday, it just was not comfortable and I couldn't hit anything reliably with it because of ill fit and strong trigger pull. The fit was the biggest problem. The pistol however, never failed to cycle a round.

I really liked the Kahr, but opinions seemed to not justify the price difference.

I also really liked the Desert Micro. It also may be my final choice should the LCP not work out to my satisfaction.

I investigated Seecamp and the R9. I could not find anyone locally within 100 miles that had either for me to handle before buying. I won't buy a $1000 pistol that has not been felt up by my own hands. It's just me!

I found a NAA guardian they wanted $500 for and passed until I go through the LCP and see what it is like for a while.

Thanks to all of you who have replied. I have learned from this thread about a couple of models I didn't know about. That is what THR is all about! Learning is one of the greatest parts of any firearm hobby. Come on over to the shotgun portion of the forum. Over there we can edumacate on how the 12 ga is the best home defense tool out there. :)

SwampWolf
February 11, 2009, 03:46 PM
I almost went with the Keltec for the opinons I heard on it, but having shot one of them again yesterday, it just was not comfortable and I couldn't hit anything reliably with it because of ill fit and strong trigger pull. The fit was the biggest problem.

If you didn't like the trigger pull of the Keltec nor the way it handled, I'm afraid you aren't going to be happy with the LCP. I've shot them both, at different times and at the same time, and I can't discern a dime's worth of difference between the two of them in terms of the trigger pull and the general ergonomics. During long strings of fire I found the little Ruger a bit harder to hold onto due to its smoother finish and that the Keltec tended to eat into your hand a mite due to its not so smooth finish.
I think,however, given a little time behind the wheel, you'll have no trouble adapting to the Ruger. No true pocket pistol that I'm acquainted with is a pleasure to shoot; it's a nature of the beast thing.

Ala Dan
February 11, 2009, 03:55 PM
great little firearm, that is really gett'in scarce~! Mine has had 0
malfunctions, of any type. Accurate from 15 yards out, as I can
keep a group from a full magazine on an 8" pie plate without any
issues. :cool: ;) :D

batmann
February 11, 2009, 04:05 PM
My choice is what I carry daily----the Kel-Tec in .380

DAdams
February 11, 2009, 06:02 PM
Seecamp LWS .380.

You have to see it and feel it and shoot it to believe it.

Pistol Perfection.

Milkmaster
February 11, 2009, 07:38 PM
Like I said... If I don't like the LCP, there seems to be a lot of folks that will be glad to buy it from me at that time. Then the search will continue. I will certainly be keeping up with this thread to remember all the good info and suggestions I saw here.

WRGADog
February 11, 2009, 08:21 PM
I love the size of the gun. The recoil is not a problem and the gun is very easily concealed. That said, during my initial trip to the range (fired 230 rounds) both magazines failed. The back broke out of both. Kahr was very responsive when I reported the problem and I received my new magazines this week. I have not had to opportunity to go back to the range, but intend to put another 250 rounds through the P380 this weekend. Despite the problem with the magazines, I would still purchase the Kahr. I know they are not 380's but two other guns I sugggest you consider are the Kahr PM9 and the S&W 340PD 357 mag. They are both easily concealed and offer much more punch than the 380. I actually bought the P380 for my wife, but I will likely carry in the summer months here in FL when humidity and temps are both high.

benderx4
February 12, 2009, 08:59 AM
Seecamp LWS380
or
Rohrbaugh R9

With your life at stake, why would you buy anything else?

Magnum Mikie
February 12, 2009, 10:26 AM
I think you'll like the LCP. My wife and I both carry one as do a couple of my friends. Since the recall, we've fired about 400 rds through each LCP without a hiccup.

SN13
February 12, 2009, 11:25 AM
Colt Mustang .380 Pocketlite.

It is the same size as a Ruger LCP (Except that it has a thumb safety and 1911 style grip plates.)

The gun fits in holsters designed for the LCP.

SAO, Thumb-Safety, and mine has been 100% reliable.

Girodin
February 12, 2009, 02:55 PM
No true pocket pistol that I'm acquainted with is a pleasure to shoot; it's a nature of the beast thing.

The above mentioned Mustang pocket lite is. I am yet to encounter a pocket pistol that I like as much. It is trult pleasant to shoot. The only draw back is the sell for around $700 now. I haven't tried the khar yet but would really like to.

Old Navy
February 12, 2009, 03:55 PM
The ONLY pocket pistol I have ever shot that was fun and very accurate with a great trigger was a Bersa thunder and Bersa thunder concealed carry. I can put 100 rounds downrange with no discomfort. Both fit easily in just about anything I wear and can be found new between $259 & $299. The keltecs and LCP i shot were not nearly as accurate or as much fun. YMMV.

garyu
February 12, 2009, 09:04 PM
Milkmaster,
I would be very careful of Kahr guns. While, their K9 is one of the best short barrel (3 1/2 inches) I have ever fired, every other Kahr has been a failure in my view. I have not tried their 380 but have used a PM9 with a three inch barrel. Yes, a great pocket gun until you have to use it. After over 600 rounds, the gun could still jam. Friend has a KM9 (several $100 more but all metal) and he said it took him over 1,000 rounds before the gun was reliable but he now loves it. My 380 is a Besra which too big for a pocket gun but does work for CCW wear. At it's price point it is a really good value.

SAG0282
February 12, 2009, 09:36 PM
Of those I chose the Kahr, but I wouldn't be interested in any of them. The Bersa to me is a better and cheaper gun, and pocket carry for me starts and ends with Smith and Wesson J frame.

gwillys
February 13, 2009, 06:44 AM
i'm completely satisfied with mine. i wanted something for a wallet/pocket holster, and i dont think any of the others would work as well. most durable finish and 100% reliable. its in my right rear pocket from 7am to 11pm. the only adjustment i've had to make is switching my wallet/checkbook to my left rear pocket. other than that, zero issues.

gunblast review (http://gunblast.com/MicroDesertEagle.htm)
makes the LCP look like a howitzer :)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/gwillys/magnumresearch.jpg

no holsters available yet, so i made one. works perfect.
heres some pics (http://photobucket.com/images/magnum%20research/)

gwillys
February 19, 2009, 07:59 AM
compared to the kahr:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/gwillys/magnumresearchkahr.jpg

mrt949
February 19, 2009, 05:48 PM
Seeing it side by side .i would go for the kahr. i looked at the 380 kahr at the shot show .i was happy .except for the price:)

WRGADog
February 19, 2009, 06:06 PM
I have put 230 rounds through mine and the only problem other than several FTF was magazine failure. The backs of both magazines broke away from the side plates. I received my new mags last week and will put another 200 through the gun this weekend. Great feel in my hand and very easy to conceal. My son-in-law has a Kel-Tec 380. The Kel Tec is very dependable also, but I prefer the fit, and finish of the Kahr, however, it my preference carries a hefty price ove the Kel-Tec.

earlthegoat2
February 19, 2009, 06:22 PM
the micro desert eagle feels great to me. Im not into ultra light pocket guns though. You might also want to consider an NAA Guardian. I hated the pocket 380 fad until I laid hands on these two guns.

Tad pricey compared to the LCP, and KelTec though.

gwillys
February 20, 2009, 07:41 AM
i saw the P380 at the gun shop yesterday, and it looks nice. i'm happy with the ME380 though, so no temptation, especially at that price - i thought the $490 i paid for the micro was ridiculous. the gun makers are really taking us to the cleaners. funny how politics drives the firearms market (not really funny at this point :().

re the kahr: i gotta say that if i'd had several FTF and two magazine failure's, i wouldn't be a happy camper.

gglass
February 20, 2009, 09:04 PM
The latest pic of my constant companion:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5302/deadmanslcpec1.jpg
It could be yours too!

MICHAEL T
February 20, 2009, 10:25 PM
I carried a PPK in pock for years jeans or dress I think perfect pocket pistol. You must have small pockets.

orionengnr
February 20, 2009, 10:39 PM
Of your choices, I would take my chances with the Kahr P380.

Outside of your choices, I'd go with an LCP. I've BTDT with the Kel-Tec (four times) :rolleyes: and won't be doing that again.

Revolver Ocelot
February 20, 2009, 10:43 PM
personally i woult get a naa guardian, its a very reliable semi auto, its a little heavier then the others you've put but imho you can't beat metal on metal.

one other you may want to consider (a possible substitute for the p3at) would be the ruger lcp, nearly identical in design however the lcp seems to have some improvements.

BikerRN
February 21, 2009, 02:51 AM
Sorry, but none of your choices are acceptable to me, if I was doing the choosing.

I still prefer a Revolver for Pocket Carry and I'm fortunate that I have that option. Most agencies around me don't have that option. If I had to have a "bottomfeeder" as a Pocket Gun/BUG it would be a Kahr but in 9mm. I had a PM9 for a spell, but traded it for an SP101 and some gunsmithing work, as it met my needs better.

No, the SP101 is not a pocket gun for me. :)

BikerRN

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