[deerhunter61]

All,

First please refrain from turning this thread into a bashing thread or an ethics thread. We all have our own ethical standards and this thread is not to try and define this from an ethical standpoint.

Let me define what I consider a long range shot at game, I am not talking about varmits, I am talking about Deer, Elk etc.

I believe anything over 400 yards is long range.

Anything over 600 yards is extremely long range.

First for those who do shoot game at long/extremely long range...why? What motivates you to shoot at animals at this distance? What is your background? I am curious how many have been in the military etc.

How much practice have you put in at these distances before you have actually went into the field and took shots at these distances?

Before you actually went into the field to shoot at game at long range did you set a goal for yourself on the practice range that you had to accomplish first? For example a 4-6 inch group at 600 yards etc?

Do you hunt alone? Or do you hunt with a partner?

Before you shoot do you consider how you will track game when you shoot it at this distance? Is this something that is all or nothing? In other words if it runs do you even try to track it? or do you assume you have missed it? For those who have made a shot like this or have taken a shot like this what is your tracking process. At ranges in excess of 200 yards it can get a little difficult to identify exactly where the animal was when you shot it so I am wondering how you go about identifing where the animal was when you shot it at distances in excess of 600 yards?

What are the varibles you take into consideration before you shoot at a distance like this? Are there conditions that would prevent you from taking a long range shot that you would ordinarily take? If so what are they?

What type of rifle and what caliber do you use? What type of ammo? Factory or handloads?

What type of scope? What magnification do you have on the rifle? What magnification do you use to shoot at this distance?

How many game animals have you been able to harvest at long range distances?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I believe anything over 400 yards is long range.

Anything over 600 yards is extremely long range.

Not with you on this one; not even close. I believe anything over 275-300 yards is "long range", and anything over 400 yards is "extremely long range", when it comes to hunting. Anything past 500-550 should just not ever ever be attempted, even under perfect conditions (no wind, shooting from a field bench, large bedded animal, etc.), unless shooting at varmints. It's just not fair to the mammal to risk wounding like that.

This belongs in the hunting forum.

[deerhunter61]

Doc,

I agree this belongs in the hunting and realized it right after I posted it. If someone can move it that would be great.

I do understand what you are saying about the ranges...and for me I do not believe I would take a shot over 300 yards at anything other than varmits but I would not hesitate to take a shot out to 300 yards in the right conditions. Beyond that...no

But although I am a pretty decent shot I know there are a lot of people out there that making a 400 yard shot based on their ability is no different than me taking a 250-300 yard shot. They are simply that good. I also understand the varibles that exist that can alter aim point etc.

I am simply trying to understand what motivates those that do shoot long range.

[jbkebert]

It agree with the both of you my self imposed limit on big game is 300 yards. I feel that I am a pretty decent shot with a rifle. I am military trained, spending 4 years at the SDM-R for my infantry unit. I feel to many people are trying to shoot from these distances. Buying a high-end scope with a balistic plex does not mean you can shoot 600 yards. I practice as much as possible from distances up to 650. We set up a range here at home where I can do this without going to a range. I am confident that I could pull off a shot on a big game animal from that distance that doesn't mean that I will. When did hunting go from spot and stalk to spot and shoot? I am primarily a bow-hunter and am quite proud of this. If one can take a deer or elk from 30 yards with a bow there is no reason you can't get closer than 400 yards with a rifle. Use the conditons that would keep you from taking a shot from long distance to your advantage. High winds, rain ect are your friend if you use them to your advantage. We should push ourselves to be a better hunters and a better woodsman not just a better rifleman.

[hossdaniels]

I practice out to 500 on a fairly regular basis, as of yet I haven' t had to take a shot on a animal past 375 yds. I determine my maximum range by the distance I can shoot a 5" group under field conditions. Most of the time with my 270, thats up to 450 yards if there is no/little wind.

That changes depending on the weapon. My muzzleloader max range is 300 yds(smokeless), my handgun max range is 40 yards(still learning that creature).

I'm not military, just a good ol boy. A 3-9x is all the scope I am capable of using in the field. You are right about the tracking, you better know exactly where that critter was when you shot. Its hard to pick it a trail if you dont know where to start.

[~z]

First, allow me to say I generally don’t respond to these types of posts anymore as they usually turn into a pissing contest about ethics. Mr. Deerhunter has asked that this not head down that road, I hope it doesn’t. To answer your questions:

I believe long range depends a lot on the caliber you are shooting, 200yds is nothing with a 30-06, do it with a .22lr and it becomes long range. I define long range as the distance where you have to compensate for the effects of wind and gravity. And extreme long range would be … well I guess I don’t have a good definition of that.

Why? I do a fair amount of cull hunting; we target specific animals, varmints, and feral hogs in open areas and many shots are presented at long ranges.

As for my background, I don’t think that is pertinent to the remainder of my answers.

How much practice? 3rd barrel on my current long range rifle.

Goals? Yes, I develop the most accurate ammo I can and practice under field conditions (not off a bench) and most important, practice on crappy days. Goal is to keep all shots within .5 MOA

All my long range hunting is done with a partner who I shoot with very often, an avid hunter and a hell of an eye on the spotting scope. We alternate between shooting and spotting.

As for tracking, most shots do not involve tracking, high shoulder shots. We are generally shooting over large open areas and take the shot on our terms (not on critters along tree lines adjacent to large wooded areas). If tracking is necessary, the spotter locks the scope on the location of the shot and the shooter walks in and is guided by hand signals to the area. After that it is just like any other tracking.

Variables? Measure the range, angle of the shot and wind. Dial it in and wait for the opportunity to present itself. Monitor the behavior of the animal, check with your buddy who is watching through the spotting scope and helping read the wind.

What prevents you from taking the shot? In a word: wind. I also limit myself to my “comfort zone” and don’t take a shot I am not certain I can make.

Rifle scope ammo… I shoot a Rem 700 with a 33” Shilen barrel chambered in 300WM topped with a 20MOA base and a Leupold 6.5-20 Most shots are on 20X unless mirage is heavy. Bullets are my handloads, usually 168-190gn SMKs running above 3000fps.

How many game animals? Not nearly game animals as varmints and feral hogs.

[testar77]

Not with you on this one; not even close. I believe anything over 275-300 yards is "long range", and anything over 400 yards is "extremely long range", when it comes to hunting.

I gotta agree there. The longest shot I have taken at a deer was around 320-340yds and that's about as comfortable as I feel.



Toby

[~z]

That is the best idea, work inside your comfort level. Never challenge yourself in the field, challenge yourself at the range.
~z

[Harve Curry]

At any distance you have to know exactly what your firearm is doing on paper. Both from a solid rest and from a hunting postion. If all goes well that builds confidence in what you can do.
I used to shoot hunter silouette. You probably know that's from a standing postion. I would sight in on paper with the only rifle I had was my Savage 99A in 308 with a K3-Weaver. With that rifle I shot a coues deer at 625 yards, but 45 degrees downhill, I thought it was 500 yards. I went back and ranged it later. Early morning, no wind. One shot one kill and I was home before lunch. Since then I been hunting with iron sighted 45-70 and my long range is 178 yards.
So the distance is what you have already proven to yourself on paper over a period of time.

[MCgunner]

I don't get to practice over 300 yards. I keep my shots under 400. I can hit all day long at 400 and in given good conditions like little wind. I'll shorten that limit if it's windy to under 300. That's just me. Others that practice at long range are more competent in shooting that far than I am. I don't really see anything wrong with it if they know the range (laser range finders are available even at Walmart now days), can handle doping whatever wind there might be, and the inclination of the shot is minimal (some laser range finders even compensate for THAT now days). I just don't practice it and; therefore, don't take those long range shots, just try to get closer. My rangefinder only reads to 400 yards, no need for more.

[Geno]

My longest shot was at 525 yards. My standard for deciding the distance to which I was comfortable shooting a deer was how far could I consistently hit water-filled, 2-liter pop bottles. I was able to hit 6 of 6 at 500 yards. I took my practice shots year-round at that distance. To me, it was purely a matter of knowing my equipment and my consistent ability.

[~z]

92641

Here is a picture of our range, we can practice as far as necessary. If you look real close you will see the steel targets: 2 12" targets at 500yds, an 18" at 750 and 1000, and a 22" at 1500 & 1 mi. Good times!
~z

[MCgunner]

Yeah, our range don't have much room, but hey, it's only 30 bucks a year. LOL! We've got it pretty danged nice, too, covered concrete shooting area with 6" thick cast re-enforced concrete shooting benches on 4" pipe stands bolted to the pad and covered with carpet, world class shooting benches. The handgun range is super nice, too. We have up to 200 yards. To shoot 300, I have to back off to the entrance gate and shoot off the hood. LOL Of course, I can only do that if I'm the only one there, which ain't hard to accomplish during the week. I've been in that club now since about 1984, got friends in it. Have no desire to go to Victoria for a range trip, anyway, and they want 200 a year or something over there. Besides, on my place, I can't see a deer past 200 yards unless it's over on the ranch next to me where they've knocked down all the brush and it's grazed to the ground. But, that wouldn't be a legal shot. I used to hunt a lot out west, though, but that was before I could buy a Laser range finder. Range finders have REALLY helped out the long range shooter. Ranging has to be precise at those long ranges. Hell, they even have scopes with build in lasers now days and if I was still hunting New Mexico and West Texas, I'd be saving my beens for one. :D They run around 800 bucks.

BTW, is that a Papst Blue Ribbon can on the ground? ROFL!

[deerhunter61]

~z,

That is a pretty nice set up. Do you have a spotting scope with enough magnification to see where you hit? Or do you have to go to the targets? If you go to the targets how many rounds do you fire before going down range?

[MCgunner]

Yeah, and when you go down range, do you have to wear rock climbing gear? ROFL! That's a pretty "open range" ya got there....okay, stupid pun.

[~z]

Paint the targets white and you can see your impacts through the rifle scope out to 1500, at a mile if the marage isnt bad. But yes, we use spotting scopes. We usually shoot all day without checking/painting the targets. You can hear hits and we usually diagram the targets on our dope books so you know where each bullet impacts. Besides, all day shooting is usually 40-50 "cold barel" shots. It takes a bit of time to read the wind and we try our very best to put every shot on steel.
The best part is at 1K and beyond, you can spot your own shots, once you reform after recoil you can pickup your own trace and watch the bullet impact. Then about 3 sec later you hear the ring of the steel. Sounds like someone taking a wooden spoon to a cast iron skillet.
~z

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

~z,

That is a pretty nice set up.

+1, to say the least! Wow, ~z, that is just "flat out" awesome; very jealous. No wonder you're very adept at making long shots under field conditions! I wanna know what spotting scope you use to see the 1 mile target.

[MCgunner]

I wanna know what spotting scope you use to see the 1 mile target.


Mount Palomar has the other one. :D

[~z]

Nothing fancy, with the targets painted the bullet splash is quite large; I have used a variety of spotting scopes from Leupolds to Swift and have found I can get by very well with a Burris XTS 2575. It is very compact and fits in my little shootin bag (killin purse as my buddy calls it). Here is a picture of a good day; I went 38 out of 40 at 1500 with some challenging and variable winds. That little rise above my head is where we shoot from.

I would like to note I do not shoot game at this distance, however if I could consistently shrink the group by ½ I would not hesitate to try.
92696

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

"killin purse", tee hee. :) :)

[deerhunter61]

~z...that is some kinda good shootin! What is the rifle you used?

[deerhunter61]

Well today I am going to go shoot what I consider pretty long range, 500 yds, to see how my rifles perform and also to see how I perform. I have never really shot at this range before so I am really looking forward to it. We are going to start by shooting them at 300 yards and then moving back to 500 yards.

I do have some concerns simply because when I was shooting last night verifying that my rifles were still sighted in the groups, 5 shot groups, of all but one of my rifles were about an inch and a half at 100 yards. Not exactly what I was looking for. My 300 Mag did shoot pretty well though. The 3 shot group for it was less than .25 MOA.

Here are the calibers I will be shooting:

300 Mag - this is one bad boy...it will flat outshoot the shooter
7 Mag - has always been my favorite but lately it has not shot as well as it did in the past.
6.5x55 Swede - this is my new favorite although I still have not found a bullet powder combo that shoots less than one inch
22-250 - this one is just fun to shoot and it is still the most accurate of the bunch at 100 yards.

[ojibweindian]

So how'd it go?

[deerhunter61]

Well not too bad considering this was the first time I have ever shot at 500 yards. The first time I fired 3 rounds out of my 300 Mag I shot a 4 inch group. Considering the wind was gusting 10-15 miles per hour from my left I was not too unhappy with the results. The next time I shot the wind had picked up even more and the I had two rounds with in 1 1/2 inch but the third round was about 6 inches to the right so I was not too happy with that group. I also shot my 22-250 but the wind was brutal on that round. I did not fire the other two rifles...the wind just started kicking up too much and I decided all I was going to do at this point was waste ammo.

I did have a good time though and I definately need to practice more at this range. I will say that I do not think I will ever take a shot at a deer at 500 yards.

I shot three rounds at 300 yards out of my 300 mag and it shot a 2 1/2 inch group there. I would not have any qualms about shooting a deer out to 300 yards but not much further than that.

[Ankeny]

I am simply trying to understand what motivates those that do shoot long range. Depending on the terrain, long range might be the norm. My brother and I crawled though sage brush and rocks for the better part of an hour last fall to close the distance on a heard of elk. We managed to get just shy of 400 yards. With the proper gear, lots of preparation, and the right field conditions, 400 yards isn't a big deal.

FWIW, we both had a license and we both set up on the same animal. The range was known, scopes dialed, and a zero value wind. Considering the thousands of rounds we shoot at long ranges year round, there never was a question of ethics. Also, the type of open terrain that dictates a long shot lends itself to recovery.

[~z]

Good job deerhunter. I guess you have learned the wind IS the great equalizer. Per you previous question, the rifle is a 300WM, basically just a Rem 700 Sendero outfitted with a 33” Shilen barrel. Tell me about your setup.
And Ankeny, good job!
~z

[deerhunter61]

~z,

Thanks I was shooting a Remington 700 BDL 300 Mag with a Meopta 3x12x56 sitting on top. It is just a standard hunting rifle but it has always been pretty accurate.

I will say that the place where we shot, a cow pasture, was not all that much fun. The ground to and from beat the crap out of us. There were 4 of us there and we were all riding on one four wheeler to the targets and back to check them out. We do not have a good spotting scope that is good enough to see the 300 target much less the 500 targets so we were making quite a few trips.

I want to practice more at this range but in order to do so I have to find a better place.

Also all the shots I fired I used hold over to accomplish. I only have one scope with turrents on it. After yesterday I have decided to make that I priority on the next scope I buy. Not being able to adjust the scope for the distance made it a lot more difficult to hold on the right spot.

[deerhunter61]

Oh I forgot to mention that I had a couple of life size deer targets that we set up at 500 yards to shoot at.

I fired one round and using hold over and trying to adjust for the wind I missed the shot...I had the correct hold over...the bullet was on the same level as the heart but I allowed to much for the wind and the bullet hit about 4 inches in front of the deer. My nephew totally missed the second deer target.

After seeing where my bullet landed my Father-in-law and my wife's cousin both shot at the two targets. Both hit the target but both missed the deer...

We learned quite a bit yesterday and I think we all agreed afterward that shooting at live animals at that distance for us was out of the question. We simply are not good enough.

It was a very educational experience!

[pbearperry]

I hunt the Maine and Mass. woods for deer.When I see a deer,they are usually in such dense woods that 50 yds is a long shot.The longest shot so far for me in 42 yrs of deer hunting is 100 yds.lol

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Ankeny, where you at?

[~z]

See if you can get ahold of some cheap steel plates and drill (or shoot) some holes in them. (We usually just shoot the holes in them from 100-200yds) Drive some t-posts in the ground and hang the plate with wire. At 500yds you may shoot through (or pock the hell out of) anything under ¼”. Paint the targets and your 12X will easily pick up your hits. If you decide you really enjoy this kinda shooting, I’d advise moving up to a scope with higher magnification and target turrets. At 500yds, I’d guess your hold over was about 32-38”, not that difficult to estimate, double the distance to 1K and your hold over becomes closer to 275-300” (22-25’), not an easy task and it becomes “luck shooting”.
If you get serious about this and have questions, let me know, I’ll do my best to help. There is no witchcraft involved in making the long shot, it is just math.
~z

[deerhunter61]

~z,

What part of Texas is the high plains?

[~z]

Guess I should update that, I'm actually closer to the low plains now. I was up around the Amarillo area. Now I'm about 500mi SE of there
~z

[Ankeny]

Ankeny, where you at? Central Wyoming. Wide open spaces.

[no.5enfield]

Y'all make me sick! I'm stuck here in the most boring part of Texas E. Central! We can't find a good longrange spot anywhere around here. The hills aren't big enough to give you a good view, but they are too numerous to have many spots that open. I need to move out West and leave this place to the Aggies that like it so much! Good shootin' ~Z!

[~z]

Plenty of hunting up around Hearn, I have taken quite a few long shots on pigs out around Normangee and Anderson. Heck we used shoot an old washing machine at a mile in the field north of Snook. You are right in the thick of it brother!
~z

[no.5enfield]

I guess I need to meet some people that own bigger ranches, heh heh. You're right, there are places around here, but nothing like what y'all got. I really need to get up that way one of these days, it's pretty country. Whose place do you hunt around Hearne, if you don't mind me asking, I live there.

Brad

[~z]

It has been about 5 years back when I was in college. We worked cows and built fence on some land out that way (OSR & Jackrabbit rd) and also out in Gause. Cant remember who the land owners were. But they allowed us to trap and hunt out there.
~z

[deerhunter61]

Here is a view of the range we shot at while shooting at 300 yards and 500 yards. Just thought I would share.

[no.5enfield]

That's a nice set-up, I would like to try my hand at something like that one of these days.

[~z]

Nice, all you need is some steel targets!
~z

[jacob.elliott]

here in south central OK it is hard to find flat/clear enough land to do much long range. we have one fence row that we can shoot 1/4 mile. and we used to have a hayfield that would do about 1/2 mile. i think that was the flattest spot in 4 counties. the wa****a river is pretty good when there is a road to get to it and the water is way down (dry summertime)

[~z]

deerhunter, been back out there lately?
~z

[AKElroy]

My longest "clean kill" was just shy of 450 yrds on a south Texas exotic cull hunt. The little pronghorn I was asked to shoot would not allow a closer shot. (might have had something to do with us chasing it in a Jeap) That shot was not clean at all, ruined meat, and a followup shot w/ a .38 when we got to the gut-shot antelope. I have been hunting all my life, always taught not to take shots that far on living game, but I was excited by the challenge & being pressured by the owner to take the shot. Given my skillset, I am back to limiting shots to within 300-350 yrds. ( LH Mod 70 7mag, 165 gr sierra, Leupold VXII 3x9)

[T.R.]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/antelopebuck760.jpg

I've taken several dozen 'lopes with this older Remington slide action rifle chambered for .243 cartridge. It shoots amazing accuracy with 95 grain Ballistic Tip as made by Black Hills Ammo.

Most animals have been taken at approx 275 yards but a few have been toppled much farther than this figure. The .243 is right for me because the low recoil helped me become proficient with much shooting. But 25-06, 270, and .308 are also good choices.

In my opinion, the so-called average hunter who rarely shoots his rifle from make shift field positions should never shoot at a live animal farther than 150 yards or so. It takes practice, practice, practice to develop the skills to hit small targets way out there on the open prairie. Guys who want to purchase ballistics of a heavy recoiling magnum rifle but won't buy hundreds of rounds of practice ammo are on the wrong path regarding long distance shooting.

TR

[sscoyote]

Great pic TR. Great info so far too.

I'm also into the "long-range" game (maybe intermediate-range would be better really). But we do it in a slightly different way. We use the specialty pistols--mostly XP-100's, Savage Strikers and MOA's.

Going out to ranges beyond point blank, is really sort of a college course in practical mathematics. It's really simple math, just rarely applied in the field. This is especially true with applying optics, and understanding the intracies of reticle/turret applications for downrange zeroing and rangefinding.

My limit on big game is 500 yds. and only under the most ideal of conditions. 400 yds. under some wind, but it would have to be consisitent (as possible). Almost all the factors (to intermediate range) can be accounted for except wind as Z has already said.

My go-to elk rig is a 7-270 WSM XP-100/17" 7-twist Pac-Nor/McMillan stock/Ken Farrell base (for a different reason than normally used for)/Burris 3-12x Ball. Plex reticle and turrets. Reticle is calibrated to true MOA drop. The optic is now back in Maine also for a BullzEye Pro power booster which will shorten the too-long eye relief (the reason for the KF base) of the Burris LER, and add some magnification. The rig shoots the 200 gr. ULD Wildcat bullet @ 2525 mv. with a G1 BC of .770.

My antelope/varmint rig is a Savage Striker 243 WSSM/8-twist 18" Broughton
barrel/4.5-14x Leup. VX-III with Varmint Hunters reticle, turrets. I've taken one coyote in a 10 mph wind at 530 yds. and 4 antelope between 295 yds. and 425 with it. It shoots the 117 gr. DTAC bullet at 2525 once again, and reticle is cald. for true drop vs. MOA subtension.

My other rig that i'm currently using for coyotes post-fur season is a 6.5-270 WSM XP and i have Darrell Holland's Leup. Mk 4 6.5-20x FFP Ultimate Mil Reticle installation. I love that reticle ( www.hollandguns.com ) and just killed a coyote last week at 435 yds. in avg. 5 mph 9 o'clock wind.

For steel shooting here's the cheapest most portable system we could ever think of-- call the local brickyard and see if they have any cinder block molds. Often they get out of spec and they trash them. They'll take a bullet strike with the best of AR-10/50 (close to it at least) and keep on ticking. U have to burn holes in it as a carbon bit won't touch it. Get 3 pieces of rebar and 2 copper or galvanized plumbing T's. Pound 2 rebar into the ground and slide the T's on top, lift slightly and slide the 3rd rebar through parallel to the ground. Hang steel with the rubber bungee cord S-hooks that r always found on the road. Get the $1 white paint from K/Wal-Mart and your set. U can also use the heavier S-hooks on tie-downs that r closed on one end--found on the road too.

Here is an on-line article i wrote several years ago for basic ballistic and rangefinding reticle applications--
www.ottllc.com/specialtypistols/sp20.pdf

"Thanks I was shooting a Remington 700 BDL 300 Mag with a Meopta 3x12x56 sitting on top. It is just a standard hunting rifle but it has always been pretty accurate."

By applying a sort of tactical system (assuming it has a plex-style reticle in it), u may be surprised what could be accomplished with that optic at ranges out to 500+/-.

Reticle applications for downrange zeroing and rangefinding is some of the most fascinating aspects of longer-range shooting. By applying a modification of the mil-ranging formula, i was able to calculate the size of a steel tgt. at 1000 yds. recently to almost .25" of it's true dimension--amazing stuff really. That's probably the driving force behind my research into longer ranges is the mathematics involved--for me it's intriguing.