Stubborn Copper Fouling


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Iansstud
February 11, 2009, 04:14 PM
Hey All,

I am on my 3rd Copper solvent, I cant seem to get rid of the copper!

I have a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in 308. I will shoot 5-10rds a week. Maby I am doing something wrong... here is how I clean it.

after shooting, Ill strip the action off the stock, pull the bolt. Ill run a patch of remoil down the bore, and repeat untill I have removed all the black color. Then I'll put my 30 cal mop in with (rem 40x cleaner, or Hoppes 9 solvent, or Hoppes Elite (goo)) and then Ill let it sit for 5-10 min. then pull a brush through 5-10 times. A patch to clean it out, then a second mop with remOil. clean the rest of the gun, lightly coat in RemOil, and Done....

when Im all done Ill through my bore light in and I can still see Copper!! its just on the tops of the lands on the rifling...

Am I cleaning right?

Does this hurt my accuracy?

I only have 63rds on the gun total. and am the original owner... any Ideas?

Thanks guys- Ian

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351 WINCHESTER
February 11, 2009, 04:27 PM
Get some j & b bore paste and put a patch over a cleaning brush. Coat the patch with j & b and make 50 or so passes thru your bore. This should remove all the copper and polish your bore also which should reduce fouling.

Worked for me and never did any harm whatsoever.

matrem
February 11, 2009, 05:06 PM
Which three copper solvents are you using? Unless the Hoppes 9 you're using is "Benchrest" # 9,I'm not certain that you've used a copper solvent yet.
JB does work,but "be carefull with that" a genuine copper solvent & JB bore brite is a better option IMO.

R.W.Dale
February 11, 2009, 05:12 PM
do yourself a favor and purchase a big bottle of Sweets 7.62 solvent. All Hoppes products are good for] is sweeping a little crud from the bbl of grandpaws shotgun. As a side benefit if you have a stuffy nose you won't have after using Sweets

http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/highres/643582.JPG

Does this hurt my accuracy?

most likely if the fouling is as bad as you describe

Afy
February 11, 2009, 05:13 PM
Actually KG 12 or Robala Solo Mil are the very best copper removers on the market that are not abrasive.
Google it... :)

1858
February 11, 2009, 05:14 PM
I use and like Sweet's 7.62. I've found that I don't need to use it any more on my two Krieger barrels because copper doesn't build up in them. I'm still using it on a Remington 700 since I'm still getting copper fouling in that barrel (which I didn't break-in following Krieger's recommended procedure).

There are folks here that think that barrel break-in is a bunch of BS ... I don't based on my recent experience!! According to Krieger, the throat of the barrel is what really needs to be broken in. All of the tooling marks that run perpendicular to the bore will create a "copper plasma" that will deposit in the barrel. If you don't remove the copper every shot for five shots, then after three shots, then after five shots, you'll be cleaning copper out of the barrel months from now. I plan to start again with my 700.

:)

R.W.Dale
February 11, 2009, 05:17 PM
wow your hand lapped Kreiger barrels don't foul as badly as a cheap sewer pipe factory barrel........imagine that:rolleyes:

WELL stop the presses that proves barrel break in right there

W.E.G.
February 11, 2009, 05:22 PM
Did you say you are pulling the action out of the stock every time you clean it?

I think you are going way overboard.
Certainly with the disassembly, and also with the notion that it makes one bit of difference in the function of the gun if it has a little bit of copper streaked in the barrel.

1858
February 11, 2009, 05:24 PM
wow your hand lapped Kreiger barrels don't foul as badly as a cheap sewer pipe factory barrel........imagine that

WELL stop the presses that proves barrel break in right there

Once again your "know-it-all" attitude and general arrogance bubble to the surface ... :rolleyes: When you bitch and moan about Federal primer packaging it's fine, but when other's complain about the lack of availability or the cost of bullets you post juvenile images of menstrual cramp medication. You really DO suffer from small-man complex don't you.

If you bothered to read my post, and read Krieger's explanation of copper fouling, you'd realize that Krieger DOESN'T polish and lap the THROATS of their barrels and it's the tooling marks IN THE THROAT which contribute greatly to copper fouling.

R.W.Dale
February 11, 2009, 05:27 PM
Once again your "know-it-all" attitude and general arrogance bubble to the surface ... When you bitch and moan about Federal primer packaging it's fine, but when other's complain about the lack of availability or the cost of bullets you post juvenile images of menstrual cramp medication. You really DO suffer from small-man complex don't you.

When people piss and whine about the help they receive you're damn right!

Let those without sin cast the first stone.

I seem to remember your topic along the lines of "BWAAAA ^$%^#%^* Sierra bullets, stuff costs more nowadays"

matrem
February 11, 2009, 05:59 PM
Umm? WOW! Glad I'm not the OP looking for advice.
OP. I want to add that if you use "polishing" compound,be esp carefull at the crown & always use a bore guide with your cleaning rod, whether using paste or solvent.

Horsemany
February 11, 2009, 06:13 PM
Back under your bridge Krochus!!!

Iansstud,

You haven't used a real copper solvent yet. Hoppe's 9 will work but you need to let it soak over night. Probably 2 nights in a row like that brushing and reapplying after the first night.

I've used most of the big tried and true solvents like Sweets, Barnes CR-10, JB bore paste, etc. etc. I have the best luck with Gunslick foaming bore cleaner. Just shove the straw up tight into the chamber, give it a toot until some comes out of the muzzle. Let it sit for about 30minutes and patch out clean. You'll see some really dark almost purple patches. Follow it up with a light oil and you're done. And don't be bothered if you have a few very minor copper streaks left. It won't hurt anything. Every gun I own shoots best when it's not perfectly clean. No need to de-stock your rifle for cleaning either.

Geno
February 11, 2009, 06:18 PM
Leadout cloth works great, as does JB bore paste.

Curator
February 11, 2009, 06:47 PM
The active ingredient of Sweets is ammonia. Ammonia disolves copper into solution. Concentrated Ammonia will etch steel. If you allow Sweets (7.5% Ammonia) it can etch the bore. If you plug the bore and fill the barrel with household Ammonia (2%) and allow it to sit overnight it will disolve most if not all of the copper without damaging the bore. Simply unplug and the copper pours out. Be sure to degrease the bore first and use a good nitro-powder solvent as well since oil and ironed on powder will prevent the ammonia from getting at the copper.

Travis Bickle
February 11, 2009, 07:21 PM
Ammonia disolves copper into solution. Concentrated Ammonia will etch steel. If you allow Sweets (7.5% Ammonia) it can etch the bore.

I've heard this stated on gun forums before, but I have a rather hard time believing it. The label on Sweet's clearly states that it's harmless to steel. If this were untrue, the manufacturer would've been sued long ago.

LTR shooter
February 11, 2009, 07:58 PM
On the bottle of Sweets it also states "Do not to leave solvent in barrel for periods longer than 15 minutes" You can even read it on the bottle in pic above if you look closely. So , if not used as directed there is apparently some harm that can occur.

I've used it and make it a point not to leave it in the barrel very long at all. But it has worked well for me.

Ol` Joe
February 11, 2009, 08:35 PM
Soak it over night with WipeOut or Forests foam then a simple patch out and oil in the morning.
Both are non toxic and are safe to leave in your barrels. I doubt you will need more then one treatment in any barrel you have to get it clean.

Floppy_D
February 11, 2009, 08:36 PM
Sweets 7.62 or Barnes CR-10, NFETP.

Travis Bickle
February 11, 2009, 08:41 PM
Soak it over night with WipeOut or Forests foam then a simple patch out and oil in the morning.

I've heard good things about WipeOut. I recently bought a can of Outers foaming bore cleaner, which I assume is the same thing. Haven't got a chance to try it yet, though.

mljdeckard
February 11, 2009, 08:49 PM
I used the Outers foaming stuff once. My dad has a policy to clean his guns once after each war, I had so much copper it was a nightmare to clean out. It worked, but it was after EXTENSIVE brush cleaning, I don't know how well it would do on its own.

I rarely if EVER remove my actions from the stocks on my 700s. Remember, you want a nice tight fit between the action and the stock. Every time you remove it unnecessarily, you are creating wear and play. If you actually bed the action, you probably don't EVER want to remove it, unless you're ready to bed it again. (Not impossibly difficult, but not how I like to spend a saturday.)

Do you use a rod guide? You are more likely to ding up the crown and mess up your accuracy without one.

Travis Bickle
February 11, 2009, 09:04 PM
Do you use a rod guide?

No, but next paycheck I'm buying some Dewey rods. They're nylon-coated and supposedly won't mess up your crowns.

USSR
February 11, 2009, 09:34 PM
Quote:
Do you use a rod guide?

No, but next paycheck I'm buying some Dewey rods. They're nylon-coated and supposedly won't mess up your crowns.

They will after you've worn thru the nylon coating by not using a rod guide. Buy a rod guide.

Don

_N4Z_
February 11, 2009, 09:45 PM
sweets 7.62

or

barnes cr10


both have done the job for me in new, older, surplus, and antique (100+ yr older) rifles.


sweets is a little easier to use as it is the thicker of the two and less prone to spillage.

doctorxring
February 11, 2009, 09:45 PM
.

I used to use Sweet's. But I don't like Ammonia and
quit using it when I found BoreTech Eliminator. Better
performing than Sweet's. NO ammonia.

Great product.


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/38156.jpg

jester_s1
February 11, 2009, 11:11 PM
OP- you need a bore guide and a good rod. The Dewey's is fine.

Use whichever product you like from the ones listed. Push a patch on a jag through from back to front, remove, and repeat. Be careful of your crown when you come out the front and you'll do fine.

Iansstud
February 11, 2009, 11:20 PM
Hey, thanks everyone!!!!

I think I'll add sweets 7.62 and the foaming bore cleaner to my list next time I hit up the gun shop. And I only remove the action everyother time, I live in nw Wa. And my hands sweat so I like to be sure there is no rust forming on my action. If I don't check, sure enough, next time (a few weeks to a few months) there will be some light orange on my oil rag. Thanks for the advice. My gun right now shoots 5 shot groups at about 1.10"-.8" but I'm just learning so I'm hopefull this will shrink. And wd40 is all my dad will use on his shotgun... No help there

Thanks guys!!

1858rem
February 11, 2009, 11:31 PM
i have seen the leadout cloths before, but it was about 4 bucks for 20 patches....worth it? how many barrel cleanings do you get from a pack/patch?

win71
February 11, 2009, 11:39 PM
Throw the chemicals away. Corbin Benchrest Bore Cleaner. I've even used it on WWII garand barrels. It works.


http://www.corbins.com/chemical.htm

5th product down.

elktrout
February 11, 2009, 11:43 PM
If you can find it, Montana Extreme is really potent stuff that cleans copper out very well. I found it works better than Barnes CR10 on Barnes X bullets. I have never used Sweets.

30Cal
February 12, 2009, 12:03 AM
I've used sweets and regular hoppes (which I leave in for 15min to 24 hrs depending on what I'm doing). I use 4-5 iterations of dry-wet patches (after a quick brushing) before I put the rifle up.

Don't ever dunk bronze brushes into solvent. A given amount of solvent can only dissolve so much copper and it's not going to work well if you've been putting it to work eating up your brushes.

By removing the stock every time, you're doing far more damage than good. Nothing's getting dirty in there. Unless you're shooting in the rain, it really never ever needs to be done. Additionally, it often takes a couple of rounds for the rifle to settle back into the stock once you've removed it. You'll have a difficult time finding a gunsmith that would recommend doing that routinely.

Unless you're see accuracy start to drop off, the copper in your barrel isn't doing anything bad.

Iansstud
February 16, 2009, 11:44 AM
Ok, I went to Sportsmans warehouse... picked up some Gunslick Foaming bore cleaner... That has to be the easyest way of cleaning you guns ever!!! I just shot it down the bore till it came out the other end, 15-20 min later push it out w/ patch, 3-5 strokes with brass brush, 2 oiled patches... DONE!!!

Horsemany
February 16, 2009, 05:56 PM
Ok, I went to Sportsmans warehouse... picked up some Gunslick Foaming bore cleaner... That has to be the easyest way of cleaning you guns ever!!! I just shot it down the bore till it came out the other end, 15-20 min later push it out w/ patch, 3-5 strokes with brass brush, 2 oiled patches... DONE!!!

Yep. That'a about all I use for copper anymore. Non toxic and seems to work very well. Once in a while I'll need 2 applications to get it all but not usually. It's nice to not have the gun room stinking of ammonia for a couple of hours.

Bill_Rights
February 17, 2009, 11:50 AM
How does this one stack up?

What the hell does "Bench Rest" signify?

Here's the link: http://www.hoppes.com/products/bench_rest9.html

Horsemany
February 17, 2009, 01:22 PM
Bench Rest 9 is an ok product. It's called Benchrest because this formula is specifically aimed at removing copper fouling. The original #9 will eat copper but not nearly as well. The problem with Benchrest #9 is you have to soak overnight and it stinks. Foaming bore cleaners are more effective at copper removal and the Gunslick brand I use is odorless and non-toxic. It only takes 15-30minutes too. Not overnight.

Bill_Rights
February 17, 2009, 01:49 PM
Thanks.

Yeh, the other thing about Hoppe's I have is that the bottle leaks. I have to keep it wrapped in absorbent paper and inside a plastic bag, else it "slimes" everything. However, if a bottle can't contain it, it must be some darn-good penetrant!

You may wonder how it is that I have some Hoppe's and don't know how it works? I am a newbie to rifles and don't have access to any bore inspection equipment, to look for the copper. What is the best/cheapest for that?

Bill

Horsemany
February 17, 2009, 03:22 PM
Flashlight shined 45degrees into the muzzle will reveal if there's any copper in the last few inches of the barrel. That's all you really need to know unless you're a competitive shooter who demands perfection. Remember most factory barrels shoot better with a little copper in the barrel anyway. Don't feel like you have to get every bit of it out. It won't hurt anything unless it reaches a level it affects accuracy. I clean it out because I'm anal about stuff like that but I realize it's not absolutely necessary to remove all copper after every range session.

Bill_Rights
February 17, 2009, 04:02 PM
Horsemany,

I kinda agree with you that copper rubbed into the microscopic scratch-bottoms and pits in the bore is a good thing. The copper will "flow" or be "burnished" down into the depressions by rubbing with a harder tool. In this case, it is NOT a harder tool but a copper-clad bullet that is doing the rubbing. So burninshing is probably not the right word. But it probably works pretty much the same anyway. The filling of pits, depressions and such with copper could smooth out the passage of the bullet. However, it would depend on how nice and flat and smooth the copper gets/stays. This would be pretty easy to see and characterize with a microscope, and I am sure the military and the big gun manufacturers have looked at this. The only other concern is that copper rubbing on copper is fairly "sticky" from a friction point of view. I could look that up - I work in a related field. However, the powder residue and burnt gun oil probably change this friction coefficient completely - and almost certainly for the better. As I say, copper-on-copper is a high friction "couple", and there would be "drag-along" of old copper by new copper if not for the powder residue, etc. The drag-along would probably pile up, break off and make the copper not as smooth as we'd like. It is a complex situation, but generally copper filling the voids should be good, I think.

Horsemany
February 17, 2009, 04:27 PM
It may have more friction but it changes little IMO. At least I can tell you that my chronograph doesn't read different velocities as the bore copper fouls. So if there is more friction it's not enough to change the velocity of the bullet.

win71
February 17, 2009, 04:31 PM
It is a complex situation, but generally copper filling the voids should be good, I think.
Somebody needs to help me understand how the copper gets into these voids in the first place.

Horsemany
February 17, 2009, 04:34 PM
The low spots fill in with copper and it stays there compared to the copper that sits on a hight spot. The high spots are worn away from the next bullet fired. Every rifle I own doesn't shoot it's best when it's been freshly cleaned of copper. Most take around 20 shots of fouling to "settle in".

Bill_Rights
February 17, 2009, 04:36 PM
Horsemany,

Excellent! I love it when data answers a question! See my profile (for why I would love it, I mean).

So maybe the copper is lubricated by the powder residue or burnt gun oil.

Or, maybe the copper coloration we see is down in the grooves of the rifling and not on the raised lands. If it is down in the grooves, it may be the drag-along copper I mentioned being finally rubbed off and deposited there.

As usual, the answer to one question leaves/raises two more. But that's what progress looks like....

Bill_Rights
February 18, 2009, 12:54 AM
Win71,

The copper rubs off the copper cladding of the mid-to-rear "belly" of the bullet. For precision rifle ammo, almost all bullets are coated, plated, clad, jacketed or whatever you want to call it, with copper. When you see FMJ = "Full Metal Jacket", the jacket is usually a thin layer of copper. But even with the various types of hollow-points and soft-point bullets, where the tip of the bullet is exposed lead (so it'll mushroom better, lead being almost the softest metal available that's still heavy), the mid-rear belly of the bullet will usually be coated with copper. Copper rubs off onto the steel on the inside bore of the barrel because copper is much, much softer and weaker than steel. That's on purpose - you don't want to tear up the steel of your gun barrel just by firing a bullet down it.

Soooooooo, now, you might be asking yourself, "Why bother putting the copper on if the lead is even softer?" I'll leave that one for someone else to answer....

Gewehr98
February 18, 2009, 01:29 AM
If you continue to pop the action out of the stock's bedding than a little copper fouling will ever contribute.

Leave the action in the stock. Leave the action screws torqued to a consistent inch/pound value.

Clean the gun when assembled.

You're rifle's zero will thank you for that little detail.

Trust me. ;)

How many rounds in that gun, btw?

You may be simply ironing out some tooling marks in the barrel, which appears not to be a Krieger, Shilen, Rock, Hart, Lilja, Badger, Obermeyer, or other barrel known for being lapped smooth at the factory.

Continue to shoot and clean. I'd wager it'll settle down after a while.

Travis Bickle
February 18, 2009, 01:32 AM
Soooooooo, now, you might be asking yourself, "Why bother putting the copper on if the lead is even softer?" I'll leave that one for someone else to answer....

One reason is that lead, being even softer than copper, gunks up a bore even worse. There are probably also other reasons I'm unaware of.

1Texican!
February 18, 2009, 01:42 AM
Copperzilla made by the same folks who make Gunzilla - combat tested . . .


http://www.gunzilla.us/copperzilla.htm

Check it out - Good Stuff that really works!

Try it - you'll like it!

Gunzilla: http://www.gunzilla.us/index.htm

win71
February 18, 2009, 11:17 AM
Thanks, I think I understood this part:
Copper rubs off onto the steel on the inside bore of the barrel because copper is much, much softer and weaker than steel.
It would seem logical that the "high" spots inside the bore or at least the areas that aren't voids are the areas causing this loss of copper. It would seem that copper would be everywhere in the bore except the voids. I still don't understand how this copper gets into the "Voids", i.e., the low spots.

usmc1371
February 18, 2009, 01:31 PM
I have been using butches bore shine on my Les Baer .204 and I have been happy with it. However I used hopps #9 for years on my 30 year old ruger and never had any complaints.
any one else use butches bore shine?

Horsemany
February 18, 2009, 01:47 PM
It would seem logical that the "high" spots inside the bore or at least the areas that aren't voids are the areas causing this loss of copper. It would seem that copper would be everywhere in the bore except the voids. I still don't understand how this copper gets into the "Voids", i.e., the low spots.

Copper is distributed over everything it touches. I forms a smooth layer of copper that is smoother than a factory bore. ie filling in the lows and maintaining a smooth layer of copper.

usmc1371

I don't use Butch's anymore because there are other products that work better and aren't so toxic or stinky. It's a good product but I like Sweet's, Barnes, and Gunslick Foaming bore cleaner a whole lot better. I have to keep my old stash of Barnes out in the garage because it was stinking up my gunroom. It even comes packaged now in the glass bottle inside another airtight plastic bottle. It's one of the few solvents that still contians the carcinogen nitrobenzene. It's a good cleaner and you'll never have copper problems with Butch's. I just like the others better.

win71
February 18, 2009, 03:07 PM
Copper is distributed over everything it touches.
I guess I'm not thinking straight and I hate it when that happens.

If a tire is skidding down the road and it hits a pot hole and the pot hole is big enough there will be rubber skid marks in the bottom of the hole. If the hole is the size of a quarter there will not be skid marks and rubber in the bottom. Why? Because the tire doesn't "touch" the bottom.

Just how big are these "voids" in the barrel? For them to fill up with copper by the passing bullet "touching" the bottom they must be longer than the bearing surface of the bullet. If that is the case then I understand the theory. If it isn't the case then I still don't understand how they get filled up.

I don't know why I even care since I try to keep all of my small bore target rifles as free of copper as I can anyway.

Bill_Rights
February 18, 2009, 04:41 PM
Win71,

Relax. Don't give up caring about it. I think I understand enough to explain it to you.

Imagine slush on a paved road, pavement that has big (1/2" - 1") gravel held in with tar. Many cars driving. The slush gets pushed and squished around and ends up in the spaces (voids!) between the gravel stones sticking up. The tops of the stones stay relatively clean because they get direct contact with the cars' tires. Well, in the bore of a barrel, the copper behaves like the slush and the bullets are like the cars' tires. There's just no comparison between the forces generated by the cars' weight and speed and the forces the slush is able to resist by its own strength and stiffness. I know its hard to imagine copper being soft as slush (it's not), but the weight and speed of a bullet generate forces so extreme that copper just gets pushed around like slush (putty?, butter?). Not to mention "hot flashes" of temperature from exploding powder that help to soften, maybe anneal, maybe even melt, maybe maybe even vaporize the previously deposited copper. (Any such temperature "spikes" would be only milliseconds in duration, but might still be a factor.)

Does that analogy help? No? Well, here's another one. Right after it rained, my Dad used to send me out to push a water-filled roller on the lawn. Any high spots in the ground (now mud, not dirt) would "flow" and fill the low spots. Copper = mud, bullet = roller. Make sense?

Bill

Walkalong
February 18, 2009, 04:47 PM
They will after you've worn thru the nylon coating by not using a rod guide. Buy a rod guide.
DITTO!

Bore Tech Eliminator, as already posted, is non ammonia and is great for copper. I have gotten away from all the ammonia based copper removers, although they work just fine.

One thing that gets some people stumped at first is the fact that the carbon and copper fouling is often "layered". It may take using copper solvent, then a good product for carbon, then more copper solvent etc. The barrels that have not been cleaned in a long time are often a B**** to get clean. A bore scope will tell you what is on the surface that needs to be attacked. A casual brushing in between steps and a good rinse helps. Lots of patches. (Yes, we do need those stinking patches)

Clean often and avoid the headache.

Horsemany
February 18, 2009, 04:52 PM
Good examples Bill. Here's another. Think of the copper as something very soft, like peanut butter. If you spread peanut butter onto a piece of bread it's porous like a factory bore that's not perfectly smooth. The peanut butter will be thicker in places where it went into the low voids in the bread. Yet the peanut butter is smooth on the top surface. The same thing happens with successive bullets. Each smoothes out whatever copper was left from prior bullets. Your surface of copper is forming a smoother bore than the factory steel in most cases. That's why most factory bores shoot better with a little copper in them.

As for the example of a tire in a pothole. Eventually the pothole will fill up with rubber. You see this on highways with dark tracks where the tires run. The voids are filled with rubber(copper).

berettashotgun
February 18, 2009, 06:17 PM
Been waiting all day for SOMEONE:banghead: to suggest KROIL or Aero-KROIL. Cannot log on @ work....
Tight patch/jag after a few hrs soak time works wonders on anything.
Lapping or polishing the bore is a real blessing for future cleaning, I've used fine CLOVER lapping compound on used rifles and gotten excellent accuracy.

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