Sound Suppressor - WOW - expensive.


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btefft
February 12, 2009, 11:06 AM
Sound Suppressor - WOW - expensive.

I was watching the Outdoors Channel, one of those shooting shows, and saw one that featured sound suppressors.

They stressed that it will not make the sound go away, it won't sound like "pffff", like in the movies, but maybe more on the level of a "weak" .22. I thought, I got to check these out for my Oly AR 15.

So I did, I couldn't find many sources, but the ones I did find, I found these suppressor things are expensive. $500+. That cooled me right off.

So, if any of you guys know of any good, but less expensive sound suppressors, I really appreciate a link.

In the meantime, I'll just keep using my cheap earplugs.

Take care
Hack

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Glockman17366
February 12, 2009, 11:15 AM
Don't forget about that $200 tax stamp just to buy the suppressor.
Sure would buy a lot of ear plugs, wouldn't it?

waterhouse
February 12, 2009, 11:18 AM
For .223 I think the cheapest ones are near the $500 mark, plus the $200 tax stamp. The YHM non-stainless phantom threaded .223 can has a retail price of $460 and real world is probably a bit cheaper.

MatthewVanitas
February 12, 2009, 12:36 PM
We have a couple THR members who have built there own pretty cheaply. You still have to pay the $200 NFA tax, but if you really enjoy lathework and such things you can build a basic can for around $100.

It's pretty much just a car muffler that screws onto the end of a barrel... with a tax.

indoorsoccerfrea
February 12, 2009, 12:39 PM
what are the rules concerning integrated suppressors? ie one built into the gun barrel?

sry, not to hijack...

mr.trooper
February 12, 2009, 12:58 PM
the barrel counts as a suppressor and all the same rules apply.

the louder the cartridge, the harder it is to suppress. a .223 will cost you almost $500, but something like a .22lr can be had for under $300.

H2O MAN
February 12, 2009, 01:13 PM
The total I paid for mine including tax stamp was $1350.00

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l219/aptusshooter/IMG_0824.jpg

MatthewVanitas
February 12, 2009, 01:40 PM
what are the rules concerning integrated suppressors? ie one built into the gun barrel?

Though the nice thing about integrals is that they count towards barrel lenght, since they're permanently part of the barrel. That way you can have 10" of actual rifled barrel, 6" of integral suppressor, and still legally be a rifle and not an SBR.


Not sure if this is what you're alluding to, but I believe there are NFA-less integral suppressors for airguns. Detachable suppressors for airguns are still verboten since you could conceivably put it on a firearm (though it'd be destroyed by a few shots), but integrals are "permanent" and thus okay. Dang silly laws.

Info: http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/silencers/

Example:

http://www.gamowhisper.com/images/top_banner.jpg

HisDivineShadow
February 12, 2009, 01:41 PM
I paid $45 for one of my .22lr suppressors, it wasn't that good to be honest, so I got a $100 Brugger & Thomet and it's really good, one I got for free when I bought a gun. I also asked my gunsmith who sells suppressors recently what he wanted for a .223 BR-Tuote suppressor for an AR-15. He wanted around $230 (190 euros).

Here's my B&T suppressor on my Spikes Tactical AR-15 (imported it from the states):
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/middy3.jpg

Sometimes, Finland does have it's advantages.

Dookie
February 12, 2009, 02:02 PM
GemTech makes nice suppressors.

What I am doing is building my own as I wait for the stamp, much cheaper.

Blakenzy
February 12, 2009, 02:04 PM
Excluding the tax, why do suppressors cost so much? More than a barrel even... I can't help but think that the price is artificially pumped up. WAY up.

PTK
February 12, 2009, 02:08 PM
Since they're a controlled item in the USA, MUCH more R&D goes into them to make them better, quieter, more durable, etc. Hence, hugely high price. I could make and sell silencers for $150 for all major rifle calibers, IF there weren't controls in place on them and people didn't care about replacing them every 5k rounds.

MatthewVanitas
February 12, 2009, 02:37 PM
and people didn't care about replacing them every 5k rounds.

This brings up a good point: silencer components are considered to be controlled items by the ATF, so you can't just buy a bunch of spare baffles to replace your worn-out ones. Since folks probably don't enjoy routinely mailing their can back to the factory for a re-fit, it seems there's a real focus on making suppressors low-maintenance, which adds a lot of expense over making a tube you can stuff with fresh rubber flaps every so often.

MUCH more R&D goes into them to make them better, quieter, more durable

Not to be contrary, but aren't there plenty of can designs that have been around forever, and are awfully good? I've read claims that the original 1920s Maxim silencers are actually really awesome. USFA is supposedly working on reproductions, but they're matched up with the USFA repros of the Colt Woodsman, which was also announced two years ago and hasn't shown up yet.

http://winchester-parts.com/im/woodsman-1.jpg

HisDivineShadow
February 12, 2009, 02:50 PM
Since they're a controlled item in the USA, MUCH more R&D goes into them to make them better, quieter, more durable, etc. Hence, hugely high price. I could make and sell silencers for $150 for all major rifle calibers, IF there weren't controls in place on them and people didn't care about replacing them every 5k rounds.

My 30 euro suppressor went past it's lifespan a looooong time ago then.

The $200 BR-Tuote and $300 Ase Utra suppressors which are made here are high-quality suppressors as well in use by military forces.

waterhouse
February 12, 2009, 04:00 PM
Excluding the tax, why do suppressors cost so much? More than a barrel even... I can't help but think that the price is artificially pumped up. WAY up.

I think it has to do with the quantity sold vs. start up cost to get into making them on a commercial scale. The price is "artificially pumped up"., in my opinion, by the fact that the gov't restricts them and taxes them $200. Sort of puts a damper on the whole economies of scale plan.

If there were no paperwork and tax hassles, I think a lot more people would be buying them, which would offset the machinery cost and R&D a lot faster.

MatthewVanitas
February 12, 2009, 04:17 PM
Not to press this everywhere, but since we have WA members posting in this thread:

There is current House legislation to allow suppressed shooting in WA, please write your reps to support this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=423471

Pulse
February 12, 2009, 04:35 PM
My 30 euro suppressor went past it's lifespan a looooong time ago then.

The $200 BR-Tuote and $300 Ase Utra suppressors which are made here are high-quality suppressors as well in use by military forces.

you forget that suppressors are a controlled Item in the USA.
unlike here in europe, where it is often considered Rude to not have a suppressor for all your firearms, especialy for hunters, in the USA, you have to jump a lot of legal hoops to even get one.

btefft
February 12, 2009, 10:14 PM
Suppressor, tax stamp, transfer fee, paperwork, begging the police chief to sign off - I'm gonna pass, just too much money and trouble to deal with.

Hack

crushbup
February 12, 2009, 10:37 PM
GemTech makes nice suppressors.

No, GemTech makes mediocre suppressors that are overpriced for what they are. Their mounting options are terrible, and the G5's leaks gas.

HisDivineShadow
February 13, 2009, 01:48 AM
you forget that suppressors are a controlled Item in the USA.
unlike here in europe, where it is often considered Rude to not have a suppressor for all your firearms, especialy for hunters, in the USA, you have to jump a lot of legal hoops to even get one.

I did not forget. My point was that a suppressor need not be expensive to last.

PTK
February 13, 2009, 01:50 AM
Right, but add into those prices the overhead required by having all sorts of expensive, annoying paperwork and licenses to produce...

Albatross
February 13, 2009, 01:58 AM
They get hot as hell.

I shoot a practical rifle competition (usually 30-70 competitors) once a month and occasionally people show up with suppressors.

All in all they seem disappointed by them. Either the suppressor isn't very quiet or it gets super hot after about 40 shots. They pour water all over them after they shoot.

I guess if you didn't do rapid fire they would be awesome. But, most of the competitors with suppressors don't usually shoot with them on.

freakshow10mm
February 13, 2009, 02:15 AM
As far as cost of suppressors, I wish they were cheaper. But then again, look at that next time you buy a $1,000 1911 or a $800 H&K. That could be a suppressor or two.

As I'm gearing up to launch my commercial suppressor lineup here's where the costs boil down.

$150 07 FFL/3 yrs
$500 SOT yearly
$2250 ITAR registration (yes, even if you don't export you still have to register)

Then there's overhead like rent, heat, electricity, water, phone lines, internet, employees.

Then one single milling machine center costs $10,000 for a used CNC Haas type machine. Add another $4-5000 in tooling. Then maybe another few thousand dollars in testing gear if you do it in house. Then you have advertising, shipping cartons, paper, printer ink, credit card fees, website fees, webmaster fees. The list goes on.

A suppressor for just the metal costs maybe $50-100 unless you are using Iconel which is crazy expensive; like $350 per foot of round rod. Then you have to figure your labor and overhead charges, then factor your profit margin into that too.

If you are like AAC and just make suppressors, you will need to keep your prices high so your unit profit will pay bills and keep money in your pocket. They also use a robotic welding machine that cost them $200,000. If you have guys like YHM that make all sorts of stuff, their prices (street prices) are lower because they sell volume through dealer networks.

Eightball
February 13, 2009, 02:35 AM
Sometimes, Finland does have it's advantages.It's freakin' Finland. Other than the weird gun laws, what's not to like?

BlacklabelOP
February 13, 2009, 03:02 AM
If you want to suppress something without paying a ton in sub-sonic ammo which you will need !!!!!!!

get a .22, I just bought a stainless YHM mite for many of my .22's

unless you want to pay for subsonic ammo the sonic crack will take away almost all of the benefit from a suppressor.

HisDivineShadow
February 13, 2009, 03:56 AM
It's freakin' Finland. Other than the weird gun laws, what's not to like?

Well the gun laws yes, it's a huge annoyance for me. My biggest peeve is polar night. Finnish summer is good though because you'll see the sun 24/7, it'll be visible just under the horizon in the middle of the night and it'll be bright as day. I love that.

Ranb
February 13, 2009, 08:24 AM
BlacklabelOP, when you say, "If you want to suppress something without paying a ton in sub-sonic ammo which you will need !!!!!!! .....unless you want to pay for subsonic ammo the sonic crack will take away almost all of the benefit from a suppressor." you are wrong.

As far as noise is concerned, silencers only affect muzzle noise, they do nothing for bullet or action noise. Knowing this, they reduce the muzzle blast of high powered rifles very well. Anything that reduces muzzle blast noise by 20-30 decibels or a factor of 100-1000 times is very handy to have, no matter what else is making noise on the gun. I think sonic crack is insignificant compared to muzzle blast.

The major reason subsonic ammo is less noisy than supersonic ammo (for something like a 5.56 or 308) is the smaller powder charge. While it can take 26 grains of powder to more a 22 bullet 3200 fps, it only takes about 7 grains of powder to move a 70 grain bullet at 1000 fps out of an AR-15. The difference in muzzle blast is huge. While the sonic boom adds noise, it is like a whip cracking, not the loud bang you get from the muzzle.

A silencer will change the noise on a high powered rifle from a bang to the sound of a car door slamming. This makes silencers well worth owning in my opinion. And unlike ear plugs, a silencer protects everyone's hearing at the range instead of just the person wearing the plugs.

Subsonic ammo does not cost a ton if you reload, it is cheaper, unless you are using a specialty bullet.

Ranb

freakshow10mm
February 13, 2009, 11:02 AM
It's freakin' Finland. Other than the weird gun laws, what's not to like?
All the socialism that goes along with it.

withdrawn34
February 13, 2009, 11:56 AM
Don't forget that you'll need subsonic ammo, which may not always cycle your weapon properly depending on what weapon that is. It is entirely possible that without modification to your AR-15, you'll have to manually cycle after each shot of subsonic ammo.

Of course, even with regular supersonic ammo, it will considerably reduce report, but it won't be as quiet as subsonic ammo.

CZguy
February 13, 2009, 01:31 PM
All the socialism that goes along with it.

Like that's not happening here, right now. :D

freakshow10mm
February 13, 2009, 01:35 PM
Compared to the socialism that has enveloped Europe, you haven't seen anything yet.

A lot of people rant and rave about the "free college education" of Finland. That is the worst thing. The job market is stagnant. You have a vast pool of qualified educated individuals but a certain amount of jobs to fill. Where do you think these people without jobs get money? Social programs. Who do you think pays all the tuition for everyone? Tax payers. Huge income taxes similar to Canada is what's headed our way. Finland has some perks with full auto and suppressors being highly unregulated, but that's about as far as it goes. I would not put up with the marxist government there just so I could buy a suppressor like buying a book.

rob_s
February 13, 2009, 07:42 PM
THR is the single worst gun forum on the internet to ask suppressor questions.

Check out www.silencertalk.com for a nice broad cross section of suppressor owners.

and if you think anything that costs $500 is "expensive" then class III is not for you.

FlyinBryan
February 13, 2009, 07:45 PM
are you a moron when your at silencer talk?

freakshow10mm
February 14, 2009, 01:20 AM
LMAO.

What is "class III"? Is that different than NFA firearms?

Gaiudo
February 14, 2009, 02:08 AM
wow, there's some serious misinformation on this thread so far. Silencer Talk would give you a lot more information in a single space.

You DON'T need subsonic ammo to shoot suppressed. And if you wnat subsonic... reloading is your friend!

The difference between a suppressed and nonsuppressed highpower rifle (.223, .308) is tremendous. If you're shooting 1000 yrd steel, you can't even tell if you make a hit with a nonsuppressed rifle; its really an imperative to have suppressor. If you're shooting hundreds of rounds at 3gun matches... if you have a defensive weapon for use indoors... any of these situations basically begs for suppressor use. Anyone who says that suppressors "just don't make that much difference" doesn't know what they are talking about.

As for shooting with semi-auto or full-auto, just get a decent model that's designed for high rates of fire. I've watched an AAC 762-SD go through an entire 3gun match, and it did just fine. And the difference... wow. Sure, you're not stopping the sonic crack, but the muzzle blast is what is so deafening.

I know this much: I'd rather have a rifle and a suppressor, than two rifles unsuppressed.

As for the difficulty in getting one: call up Bryon Gaston over at www.major-malfunction.com, who has excellent pricing. He'll put together a Trust for you as part of the package deal, and you won't need a sheriff's "approval". Pay for the suppressor, it will show up at your local gun shop, run over and pay the tax, and a couple weeks/months later: quiet time! Its really not a difficult process. Certainly not prohibitive, especially if you're working with a decent dealer.

H2O MAN
February 14, 2009, 09:07 AM
Video of me, my MK14 SEI Mod 0 and
a Smith Enterprise, Inc. / Fisher sound suppressor.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Suppressed-MK14SEI.jpg (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5582457370480061216&q=mk14%20mod%200&hl=en)

helz_mcfugly
February 14, 2009, 12:07 PM
Im getting 2 maybe 3 suppressors . one for 45 ACP and one for .223/22lr. I cant wait. the 45 ACP is for my home protections pistol which would go on a H&K USP or Glock 21 or a Colt 1911. I dont want to blow my ears out if I had to use it. the one for .223 would go on my AR15 or my ruger 10/22 for plinking so I dont have to wear ear protection or bother my neighbors. might even get one for my 308 for when I go shoot past 500 yards so I dont have to wear ear protection and can hear my shot hitting the target. cant hear it if you have ear protection on. I may give www.major-malfunction.com a call on the ones I plan on ordering.

rfurtkamp
February 14, 2009, 12:12 PM
I can make a damn fine suppressor and sell it for $300 to $400 and give it a life time warrenty.


Best get your manufacturing license and relevant stuff in order before making suppressors for sale.

freakshow10mm
February 14, 2009, 01:06 PM
Before making suppressors period, unless on a Form 1.

helz_mcfugly
February 14, 2009, 01:38 PM
yea. Im friends with the chief of police here. he gives me all the info I need.
I edited the statement I made about making a suppressor because I dont have all that stuff yet. but I can make a nice one none the less. just cant sell them yet. you know Ill be starting threads on all the boards when I can sell them. may even make a website.

Prince Yamato
February 14, 2009, 04:04 PM
Excluding the tax, why do suppressors cost so much? More than a barrel even... I can't help but think that the price is artificially pumped up. WAY up.

The prices on NFA weapons are artificially high. I discovered this last summer when I looked into purchasing a silencer. The actual retail cost of a silencer from someone like Major Malfunction is not bad, but it's the transfer fees to out-of-state NFA dealers that are the killer. Some dealers will charge you as high as $200 to transfer an NFA item. You often hear the bantering about, "well there's extra paper-work" by some of the dealers, but again, it's not really that much paper-work to figure out. I think if profit is their game that many of the dealers could turn a bigger profit if they dropped the price of the silencers by one or two hundred dollars. They'd sell more in volume (albeit a smaller volume than title 1 firearms). They also get you on the Nielson devices (which are interchangeable on most silencers to accommodate different barrel threads). Some Nielson devices sell for $200 by themselves; you pay $200 for a glorified spring. I met one NFA dealer who was a real jerk about this. He'd specifically order silencers with uncommon threads on the nielson devices and then say, "well, I don't have the 1/2x28 or m 13x5 in stock, but I could order it for you for an extra $150." Yeah, $200 out of state transfer fee, an extra $150 for the correct nielson device and then the $200 tax on top of it. What a swell guy...

This is not to say that there aren't silencers worth $1000; but the majority are vastly over-priced.

freakshow10mm
February 14, 2009, 04:55 PM
Again, when you take into consideration all the R&D and equipment involved in manufacturing suppressors, the price seems more reasonable. Economies of scale also plays a role here. If a manufacturer sells a few thousand .22 rimfire cans a year versus maybe a few dozen .308 centerfire cans, what can to you think is going to have a higher price tag? Dealers buy .22 cans by 10s and 20s versus larger centerfire cans in maybe pairs and triplets.

The paperwork isn't too much a hassle, but it's the additional legwork involved. This isn't a quick Title 1 transfer, it's a 3-4 month process. Of course you are going to pay a premium. Don't like the transfer fees of your SOT? Find another one that's cheaper or get your own SOT and undercut him with cheaper fees.

Gunnerpalace
February 14, 2009, 09:56 PM
silencertalk is biased to AAC, go to the Arfcom suppressor forum instead,

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=20

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