The F.B.I. just informed me that they can't read my fingerprints ....


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PcolaDawg
February 12, 2009, 12:07 PM
... and as a result, they can't do a criminal background check on me. So I had to go to the Sheriff's office again yesterday for them to get an electronic reading of my fingerprints (again). I then had the Sheriff's office give me a letter stating that they couldn't get a good print of my fingerprints because of 'wear' on my fingertips. The grooves and ridges on my finger tips have worn down so much that the print just comes out as a big smudge.

So it's going to take even longer for me to get a Florida CCW license now. :banghead:

On the plus side, the FBI can't read my fingerprints. :)

P.S. I am only required to submit my fingerprints twice. After that, if the FBI can't read them, they will approve my license without me having to submit a third set.

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expvideo
February 12, 2009, 12:09 PM
Sorry this is happening to you. This actually happens from time to time. This isn't the first time I've heard of the FBI having to re-request fingerprints.

twoclones
February 12, 2009, 12:10 PM
So what caused that? Do you work handling something abrasive?

rainbowbob
February 12, 2009, 12:14 PM
The grooves and ridges on my finger tips have worn down so much that the print just comes out as a big smudge.

I'm certainly no expert (although my father was) - but it sounds like the technician's error. Even "worn" grooves and ridges should leave a distinctive and unique print if taken properly. Perhaps you should find another technician and try again.

If you don't mind my asking - How did your fingerprints get so worn down?

Shung
February 12, 2009, 12:15 PM
that is what you get when your work hard !

If you were a low life gangbanger, your fingerprints would just have been perfect and "brand new" :neener:

rainbowbob
February 12, 2009, 12:24 PM
Much to my surprise, I found the following in an article on fingerprints.

The FBI said lifetimes of manual labor or old age often erode the whorls of ridges that make up fingerprints.

"Absolutely, it could be a result of age," said Steve Fischer, spokesman at the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services. "In fact, it happens quite frequently."

In the"old" days, they took them manually rather electronically. The technicians were better trained then (many of them by my father). I suspect that may be the difference.

rainbowbob
February 12, 2009, 12:44 PM
Here is more info on how a competent technician can get good prints from worn fingers:

Worn Fingerprints

An individual may, by the nature of their work or age, have very thin or worn ridges in the pattern area. Light pressure and very little ink are used to record these types of fingerprint impressions. A technique known as "milking the fingers" can be used to raise the fingerprints prior to fingerprinting. The technique involves applying pressure or rubbing the fingers in a downward motion from palm to fingertip. In a situation of dry, flaky fingers, simply add a small amount of hand lotion or ridge builder prior to fingerprinting.

taprackbang
February 12, 2009, 12:46 PM
The F.B.I. just informed me that they can't read my fingerprints ....

IMO, That ain't necessarily a bad thing.

expvideo
February 12, 2009, 12:51 PM
The grooves and ridges on my finger tips have worn down so much that the print just comes out as a big smudge.
The police department should have a chemical wipe that will raise even the most worn finger prints. I've seen something used for this before, but I don't remember if it was a wipe or a spray or something else, just that it worked miraculously well. The technician should have used it, but it may not be available. Ask them to see if their forensic department has anything that could help.

REB
February 12, 2009, 01:01 PM
When I applied for my Florida permit I tried twice to get good prints with the electronic system and it just didn't work. I ended up sending in the old fashion finger print card.

Sato Ord
February 12, 2009, 01:15 PM
What gets me is they have to have a current set. I can see that they might be looking for someone who has tried to alter their prints, but what has that got to do with a background investigation. That's more like currently looking for criminals, not trying to see if your background is hinky.

I've been printed more times than most criminals. They've taken my prints and run a background check every time I've gotten a new position working with children and/or the elderly. The FBI has checked me so many times over the years I'm almost on a first name basis with them. If I had altered my prints in some way it wouldn't fit my background anyway, so why the fuss. I don't mind, but it's a pain in the butt when you have to this once a year or more. Of course, since I have pretty much given up working due to my physical condition the first time I had been finger printed in a while was when I applied for my permit over a year ago.

Like I said tough, couldn't they use an older set, jeeze, it costs me forty bucks every time they do this, and I could better spend that money on ammo!

MD_Willington
February 12, 2009, 01:30 PM
corn huskers oil... seems to work every time, they use it on my prints, I'm not that old but I worked doing manual labor for years, plus I have one smashed print.

rfwobbly
February 12, 2009, 02:03 PM
Could also be the wife.... tell her no more honey-dos !!

CoRoMo
February 12, 2009, 02:17 PM
I recall hearing that people who are born without sweat glands also do not have fingerprints. Their fingers are smooth like your cheek.

Duke of Doubt
February 12, 2009, 02:19 PM
The first time mine were taken by the FBI was about twenty years ago. They made a lot of fuss over one of my "thumb prints" as I didn't really have one --that part of my thumb was torn up pretty badly at the time, and the "thumb print" of that hand was a mostly confused mess. I would have thought this was more common. One of my clients is missing the first joint of his index finger on one hand -- what would they do with him?

CWL
February 12, 2009, 02:28 PM
I have worked with the leading company that provides (biometric) fingerprint scanning technology to Federal, State and banking communities.

Modern fingerprinting is no longer taking a real photo and comparing it to the equivalent of a mugshot book to see if it matches any bad guys. Everything is stored as digital data (algorithms) nowadays including fingerprint data. Electronic fingerprint scanners records various points of your fingerprint and not a total finger photo. Imagine that a computer lays a spiderweb grid over the various swirls & whorls of your fingerprint and records them -this pattern is completely unique to the individual.

This 'map' is used to determine someone's identity -however, if many of these points are damaged or worn-away, there is no modern method to read and determine someone's identity via digital fingerprint information.

Just One Shot
February 12, 2009, 02:33 PM
+1 on the corn huskers.

The Sheriff dept. where I had mine done uses it. They did mine and got a good read but the girl said it could be better so she had me rub the corn huskers into my finger tips and it really made the details stand out.

wherestheham
February 12, 2009, 02:58 PM
pcola dawg,

exact thing just happened to a co-worker at the Escambia County ESO.

sounds like they have a problem with they way they are doing them.

jwr747
February 12, 2009, 03:37 PM
is a problem for lots of folks who work with cement block,and to some extent,bricklayers. jwr

smilin-buddha
February 12, 2009, 05:20 PM
My sister in law lives in Florida. She had hers taken twice. For some reason a chemical cleaners she had used in the past had made several of her prints unreadable. they tried several times. She still got her permit.

accordingtoome
February 12, 2009, 05:23 PM
i made it a point to file my thumbprints down when i got my new DL at the DMV. :rolleyes:

PcolaDawg
February 12, 2009, 05:42 PM
So what caused that? Do you work handling something abrasive?

I honestly don't know. I've been trying to figure it out. I don't work for a living, I'm an attorney. :cool:

PcolaDawg
February 12, 2009, 05:45 PM
I'm certainly no expert (although my father was) - but it sounds like the technician's error. Even "worn" grooves and ridges should leave a distinctive and unique print if taken properly. Perhaps you should find another technician and try again.

If you don't mind my asking - How did your fingerprints get so worn down?

They had another techician take the prints the second time and they still couldn't get good prints. She even did her own so I could see the difference.

And, the first time I had them done, the technician told me they'd be getting them back in two months as unreadable, I just didn't believe her.

As to what caused my fingerprints to get so worn down, I don't know. I'm 'only' 46 and I don't work for a living -- I'm an attorney. So I have no idea what caused it. And my left hand is much worse than my right which doesn't make sense because I'm right-hand dominant. :confused:

PcolaDawg
February 12, 2009, 05:50 PM
pcola dawg,

exact thing just happened to a co-worker at the Escambia County ESO.

sounds like they have a problem with they way they are doing them.

Well, that's the exact place I had mine done, so maybe you're right. On the bright side, if the second prints are unreadable, they have to give me my CCW license anyway, it didn't cost me anything to get the second set of prints done (except a lot of waiting time for my CCW to come in :fire:) and ....

The FBI can't read my fingerprints. I don't know why, but that thought makes me happy. :)

PcolaDawg
February 12, 2009, 05:53 PM
A honest barrister.Shakespeare was wrong!
LOL! Heck, I don't even do the dishes at home. I have a wife and kids for that. :D So I have no idea why my fingerprints can't be read.

I had to be fingerprinted and investigated when I took the LSAT, Florida and Georgia Bar, and when they did my initial background investigations in each state, and had no problem.

Of course, that was 20 years ago and it was done manually, so that might have something to do with it.

DC300a
February 12, 2009, 05:54 PM
It's been my experience that the electronic scanners just dont get the detail that the old ink and card method does.

With ink and card a well trained tech can make the most difficult prints stand out.

704338
February 12, 2009, 05:57 PM
My step-dad has worked manual labor all of his life. 38 years of paramedic and he's always working with his hands and building things. He was at a crime scene one time and he moved a table with his latex gloves on. When the FBI was running finger prints lifted at the crime scene his came up. They told him it's pretty uncommon for finger prints to transfer through gloves and warned him if he was to do any crimes it would probably be better to wear leather or two pair of latex gloves. :uhoh:

Anyways, he was telling me about a woman who worked at a local restaurant for almost 20 years and then ended up killing her boyfriend. When they went to run her fingerprints she had none from working the dish tank all the time.

Just 2 little stories I thought I'd share.

VINTAGE-SLOTCARS
February 12, 2009, 06:59 PM
The old ink card system made good cards,but had to be entered into computer files(loss of clarity). These had to be done with dry clean fingers to get the best results. The new scanner system works best if the finger tips are moist and clean. They are digitally entered into the data base w/o losing clarity, infact the computer system can inhance the print. The old ink systen did not require any certification the new one dose. . As with any system "trash in trash out"

AK103K
February 12, 2009, 07:24 PM
is a problem for lots of folks who work with cement block,and to some extent,bricklayers. jwr
My buddy is a block mason and had this very trouble.

He was doing the paperwork for his first NFA gun and they couldnt get a decent set of prints. He had to wait a couple of weeks and get reprinted. He wore tape on his fingertips at work during those couple of weeks. The next guns he bought, he did the same a couple of weeks before going in and didnt have any problems.

I've had both ink and computer prints done. Never had troubles with the ink, but they always seem to have a problem when they do them on the computer.

HK G3
February 12, 2009, 08:21 PM
Hey OP,

Same thing happened to me also. Just had to resubmit my prints, and I got my CCW the second time around.

The fingerprinting people told me that it's likely the fault of my working in the medical field - he said all that handwashing that we do wears down our fingerprints.

Edit: Post #357! :D

Haemon
February 12, 2009, 08:32 PM
The fact that you're an attorney might actually be the problem. When my wife runs prints at her job (she works at a company that administers professional certification tests), she always has terrible trouble with people who handle paper all day. Believe it or not, the paper fibers are pretty abrasive and also dry the hands.
I suggest you a) try moisturizing your hands thouroughly and b) ask the tech running the prints to keep on trying until you get a good scan. Our machine gives instant feedback about the quality of the print. We've had to try various fingers MANY times until we get a good print -- but these folks have paid and prepared for the test, so they're not going anywhere until they get a good result.

Avenger
February 12, 2009, 09:55 PM
The nice lady who did my prints for my CHL had a whole bunch of alcohol pads to help bring prints up. Mine were pretty marginal, I work in a glass factory and my fingertips get SANDED with ground glass for 7 hours a day. Heck, I'll bet the network of tiny little scars on my hands are easier to read than my actual prints!

tpaw
February 12, 2009, 10:00 PM
Simple, just use your toes!......:rolleyes:

Grey_Mana
February 12, 2009, 10:09 PM
There was a story last year, about a guy who filed an Americans with Disabilities complaint to demand his permit.

Apparently, he had lost a few fingers to frostbite. The FBI kept demanding re-printing, since the print they had didn't have all ten fingers.

Deltaboy
February 12, 2009, 10:12 PM
WoW !

Wolfebyte
February 12, 2009, 10:39 PM
+1 on Corn Huskers

I took prints all the time with my job.. sometimes with people not cooperating..

put liberal amounts of the corn husker's lotion on your hands the night before you go back in to re-print.. wear cotton gloves if possible during the night.

wash your hands well the next morning and pat dry, don't rub.. The corn husker's lotion will make the loops and whorls stand out.

isp2605
February 13, 2009, 08:44 AM
There was a story last year, about a guy who filed an Americans with Disabilities complaint to demand his permit.
Apparently, he had lost a few fingers to frostbite. The FBI kept demanding re-printing, since the print they had didn't have all ten fingers.

Sounds like an urban legend.
Missing fingers are common and it's common when fingerprinting. Just indicate "missing" in the appropriate finger box and the prints will go thru. Same with people who have partial missing. No big deal. We send prints thru nearly everyday with partials.
Same with people missing hands. Not uncommon. The FBI is use to getting prints with missing fingers and hands.

beatcop
February 13, 2009, 09:41 AM
See if they will take them using the newer inkless systems, you can see the print on the computer screen and accept or try again. You can then print out a 10 print card.

PcolaDawg
February 13, 2009, 05:36 PM
See if they will take them using the newer inkless systems, you can see the print on the computer screen and accept or try again. You can then print out a 10 print card.

That's the system they had. And they tried it several times, and it never came out great. So they printed out the best they could get and gave me a letter to mail in with the prints saying that my fingerprints were worn down and that's why they couldn't get a better print. :uhoh:

gym
February 13, 2009, 06:11 PM
I didn't think that they even checked the prints unless they show up at a crime scene and they run them against the national data base as part of the investigation. And one would think that missing a piece of a finger would be more unique thus easier to track than just another set of prints. Maybe that just makes to much sense for our govt. to apply.

230RN
February 14, 2009, 05:56 AM
Slick fingers here, too.

I have trouble hanging on to things because of it. A friend of mine tried to hand me a highly polished stone the other day (he's a mining engineer) and he couldn't hang onto it. Then when he handed it to me, I couldn't hang on to it either. Quite comedic. Worthy of Laurel and Hardy.

I've been printed about ten times in the last five years (CCW, Security) and they keep having to re-do the prints with the electronic ones. The inked prints when I got my CCW turned out OK, I guess, since there was no problem getting the license.

209
February 14, 2009, 06:38 AM
Sounds like an urban legend.
Missing fingers are common and it's common when fingerprinting. Just indicate "missing" in the appropriate finger box and the prints will go thru. Same with people who have partial missing. No big deal. We send prints thru nearly everyday with partials.
Same with people missing hands. Not uncommon. The FBI is use to getting prints with missing fingers and hands.


Yeah, there are methods in place for noting missing digits.

On a funny note, we had a person come in to be printed for some sort of certification and he was absent a right hand. The officer took the prints and showed the card to the LT. The LT was busy and glanced at it. He told the officer, "WTH? You didn't print his right hand. Do it right!" and shooed the officer out of his office.

For about the next month or so, a right hand from a mannequin kept showing up with various print cards attached to it.
:evil:

JWarren
February 14, 2009, 07:52 AM
Quick question...


Did YOU place your fingers on the card or did the person doing your prints?

Were your fingers ROLLED onto the card from one side to the other, and then pressed straight down on the lower area of the card?


As a former stockbroker of 15 years, I have been fingerprinted a LOT. Hell, once, a cop doing told me that I was as good at doing fingerprints as a felon!

However...

I've met more than a few people DOING your fingerprints that had no idea what they were doing. I've had to re-do mine twice due to mistakes. Its a pain in the butt when you need them for a company-change or a promotion.

I am more willing to bet that there was a mistake in the fingerprinting proceedure than I am willing to bet that there is something wrong with your fingers.

Hang in there.

-- John

Geronimo45
February 14, 2009, 02:38 PM
As a former stockbroker of 15 years, I have been fingerprinted a LOT.
Did you work for Enron? :neener:

I had to mark down scars on a finger or two for my inked prints. There's a box to explain that.

JWarren
February 14, 2009, 05:05 PM
Geronimo,

Funny you should mention that....


My firm handled Enron's retirement accounts during the debacle.

Towards the end-- before the blow-up, we were fired with no real reason or explaination. Another firm was given the accounts.

Only later did we see why we were fired....

You see, during a period where a retirement plan is being TOA'd (Transfer of Accounts), Enron had a provision where employees could not sell stock or take money out.

They fired us and moved the accounts as a desperate measure to prevent the employees from selling and getting out of company stock.


I didn't work in our retirement division-- I was in Pinnacle Trading, but I could see the freezes on the accounts.

Another ironic thing. MY division got one of the execs caught.

One exec who knew that the blow-up was imminent sold a massive amount of Naked Call Options in one of his private accounts. This brought in approximately 3 million dollars cash. When you sell naked call options it means that you are hoping the stock goes DOWN. If it goes up, you have to cover a massive loss. If it goes down to zero, you make a 100% profit and keep all the premiums you recieved.

He then transfered the 3 million in call option premiums into an account in his wife's name. This was then wired to an account outside of the United States.

A Pinnacle broker on my team saw the massive wire out (which isn't all that unusual for our clients, but we knew that she was an Enron exec's wife.) Since it was going out of the country, the joke was that she was getting out of dodge and leaving the guy. Curiosity caused him to see where the funds came from and he discovered the chain of funds.

A quick call to our wire department had the wire halted and reversed. The concern at this point was funds from an open naked option sale was leaving not only the firm, but the USA. This could have exposed my firm to liability.

As it turns out, this exec was arrested later.


Crazy times, Crazy times.

I still get mad when I think of Enron.


-- John

sailsunfurled
February 14, 2009, 10:35 PM
Seems more folks on here from the Pensacola Area than I would have thought. Hello from Gulf Breeze and good luck print-less PcolaDawg,

smilin-buddha
February 15, 2009, 07:36 AM
Got my Permit for Concealed permit Saturday. After all the horror stories of how long the wait would be. Was less than 90 days.

Gun Slinger
February 15, 2009, 04:30 PM
PcolaDawg,

Since you are "unprintable", one of the unrealized prospects awaiting you is an exciting career as a cat-burglar or international jewel thief.

;)

Primersinmyshoe
February 15, 2009, 04:47 PM
Wonder if you are killed in an explosion, and all that's left is your hands. You'll never be identified!

AK103K
February 15, 2009, 05:23 PM
You could always get a set tattooed on. :)

Dillingers or Capones would make for interesting conversation.

ar10
February 15, 2009, 09:26 PM
It's not that unusual. The SO should use a print card and mail it in.

Primersinmyshoe
February 15, 2009, 09:28 PM
Where can I get ATF approved fingerprint cards (white with blue lines) done?

Edited to add:
After more searching I found them here: http://www.crimescene.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=117

I guess I could buy some of these and take them to the local police or highway patrol to have my fingerprints done.

Does that sound right?

Ala Dan
February 15, 2009, 09:33 PM
a perfect set of fingerprints will have the finger's of each hand rolled
from one side or the other, with NO over lapping~! :scrutiny: ;)

AK103K
February 15, 2009, 10:34 PM
Where can I get ATF approved fingerprint cards (white with blue lines) done?
You dont need to get your own cards, the agency doing the prints will provide them.

Just make sure they are "blue" and not "red". :)

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