5.56 AK type?


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ds92
February 12, 2009, 08:53 PM
Hello all,
Are there any AK type guns in 5.56 nato/.223 remington? what kinds? what knid of price can i expect? i'm looking for a simple, cheap plinker/SHTF, and that seems to coceptually fit the bill.

Thanks, any help is appreciated :D

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Shung
February 12, 2009, 08:55 PM
well, I know for sure chinese AK in .223 , but I don't know if they are available in the US-

Hoppy590
February 12, 2009, 09:36 PM
5.56 AK's same price as an AR. 1/10th the parts and reliable mags.


dont do it.

but if you must, Arsenal makes one, you can convert a saiga, theres a Romanian WASR 3. um theres some norincos etc imported before the ban

btefft
February 12, 2009, 09:44 PM
I went on gunbroker.com and found what I was looking for - An Olympic Arms K3B M4 Carbine, chambered in 5.56 (so I can also shoot 223 Rem in it), 16 inch barrel, under 7 lbs. And it has a written life-time warranty.

The first time I tried to buy one I did the bidding thing and before I knew it, the gun I was bidding on was at 1250.00 - I stopped bidding long before that. The next time I didn't fool around with bidding - I used the "Buy Now" option.

Here's the details:

I paid $900 for my AR, $20 for shipping, $25 to my smithy for the FFL transfer - $945 was the grand total I paid.

I mailed the US Postal Money Order on Friday (1/30/09), received the AR the next Thursday (2/5/09) - I thought "Pretty fast turn around time."

BTW, I looked at the ARs at my local gun shop, but didn't see anything I was attracted to - that was under $1000.00 (I did see one I kinda liked for $1045.00, but it was a flat top and I wanted a carry handle on the AR, like the M16 I used in the 82d back in the early 70's. I didn't want to have to add a carry handle, I wanted it "built-in".

I'm glad I used gunbroker, saved some $$$$.

Take Care
Hack

Sir Aardvark
February 12, 2009, 09:47 PM
Valmet makes one of these - good quality, but you end up paying for it.

stratus
February 12, 2009, 09:48 PM
5.56 AK's same price as an AR. 1/10th the parts and reliable mags.


dont do it.

+1. Get a real AK. Why mess with one of the most reliable autoloading mag-fed rifles ever designed? If you want more accuracy get something else. I personally don't like the .223 because it does not penetrate cover. If you have a round that penetrates cover, then you can coax a target out of concealment even if you (probably) are going to miss. When they pop out you pop them. You simply can't do that with a .223 if they have real cover. Remember the difference between cover and concealment and the fact that the .223 is sensitive to tumble.

WardenWolf
February 12, 2009, 09:51 PM
Saiga .223. Cheap enough. Buy a US-made trigger group and spend a few hours converting it, and you've got your AK. They take a very slightly modified standard AK trigger group that's available pre-modified from a couple of sources. Reliable mags are readily available from Surefire.

With 3 different mags (factory, and 2 Surefires), I've put countless rounds through my Saiga .223 without a single malfunction. It always feeds, always cycles, always goes bang. I converted it and it continues its stellar reliability. What can I say? It's a genuine Russian AK, born on the AK-100-series assembly lines.

Hoppy590
February 12, 2009, 10:14 PM
+1. Get a real AK. ...

i can agree with the get a real AK bit. either get a Real AK in 7.62X39 or 5.45X39, or get an AR in 5.56.

if this is going to be a go to gun of any kind a "real" ak will have readily available mags and parts cheap.

a regular AR will have parts and mags cheap.

i considered the idea of a 7.62X39 AR. but when you take a platform out of its original caliber it gets pricey and a general PITA.

briansmithwins
February 12, 2009, 10:54 PM
The Arsenal 5.56 AK is excellent. Mine was a 100% rifle that never failed. The good (Circle 10 waffle mags) are kind of expensive, but they are damn tough.

The 5.56 AK had the advantages of a much flatter cartridge than the 7.62x39. Recoil is also less, not that 7.62x39 is rough by any means.BSW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/right-4.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/leftside.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/151986557-L.jpg

Prince Yamato
February 12, 2009, 11:46 PM
+1. Get a real AK

He's in Connecticut. They have a ban on AKs that fire 7.62x39...

so...

get a converted Saiga or get an Arsenal.

coinshooter
February 12, 2009, 11:53 PM
My Arsenal 106 is great.

Gunfighter123
February 13, 2009, 12:11 AM
There is also a Golani AK47 type of rifle that fires the .223 ---- it is based of the Israil Galil . You have to buy a "fix" for it and it will take AR-15 mags ---- The Golani , Saiga and the others do not take AR-15 mags.

I wonder if you can change a .7.62 X 39 AK mag into a .223 AK mag ??

Prince Yamato
February 13, 2009, 12:13 AM
I wonder if you can change a .7.62 X 39 AK mag into a .223 AK mag ??

No, but orange 5.45 AK mags can be changed to .223 to work in Norinco .223 AKs.

nalioth
February 13, 2009, 12:36 AM
No, but orange 5.45 AK mags can be changed to .223 to work in Norinco .223 AKs. . . only if you have a loose definition of "work".

The mags are shaped differently, and this affects reliability. While you can get them to lock in, the more rounds you put in them increases the odds of a jam. This is because the cartridges are of a different shape.


You can see the curvature differences yourself. From left to right: 30 round Bulgarian 5.56x45, 20 round Bulgarian 5.56x45, 30 round Bulgarian 7.62x32 and Bulgarian 30 round 5.45x39. You are comparing the mags on each end.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6175/akmagsge2ev8.jpg


Besides, destroying a 5.45x39 mag is an expensive proposition nowadays. . .

HorseSoldier
February 13, 2009, 12:43 AM
Don't the Norincos use a AK-47 sized magwell? That wouldn't work with 74 mags.

And +1 on doing major alterations to orange bakelite Russian or East German mags not being a real viable route, money wise.

Gunfighter123
February 13, 2009, 12:52 AM
Thanks for the info on the mags.

I agree about the price on .223 AK mags --- they are not cheap and 5.54 mags ain't cheap either -- even AR15 mags are more then a few months ago.

I really would like to get one of them Golani's but like WASRs I hear mixed reviews of them.

Anybody own one ????

Prince Yamato
February 13, 2009, 01:09 AM
Don't the Norincos use a AK-47 sized magwell? That wouldn't work with 74 mags.

And +1 on doing major alterations to orange bakelite Russian or East German mags not being a real viable route, money wise.

They were used during the AWB I believe, unless they were modded for SAR-3s. I know that I've seen 74 mags with the base-plate marked (.223). I think the follower was replaced too.

nalioth
February 13, 2009, 02:56 AM
They were used during the AWB I believe, unless they were modded for SAR-3s. I know that I've seen 74 mags with the base-plate marked (.223). I think the follower was replaced too. They were offered by Century. This is back when the East German bakelites could be had for 10 cents a piece (or less) in bulk.

Century only stamped the floorplate ".223", ground the lips open a bit (for what purpose, I have no clue), and painted some of them with a black stripe. Nothing more was done.

Guess Century foisted off another Jedi mind trick on the unsuspecting public . . .

Even with a "special follower", it doesn't make up for the magazine shape, so you'll still get jams, and this is a large reason the SAR-3 and WASR-3 from that era are seen as "jam-o-matics" and "unreliable".

ifit
February 13, 2009, 03:29 AM
ds92 i have a norinco in .223 and i absolutley love this ak variant. i was very fortunate to have got i for a really good price from a friend. but now all the panic has drove the prices sky high so expect to pay more. but i would suggest a vz58 as the way prices are on aks you could get a vz w/milled receiver and still shoot cheap 7.62x39 ammo as compared to the higher priced .223 ammo good luck on your choice

heres my norinco in .223, original mags are $$$$ so i just bought promags for 14 bucks and modified it a little and have no problems feeding
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/cz527nnorinco009.jpg

my vz58 7.62x39
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/savz5809018.jpg

Prince Yamato
February 14, 2009, 01:59 AM
Now that's a thought... a VZ-58 is not an AK-type weapon and is available in 7.62x39... It would be CT legal with the fixed stock.

Dr.Rob
February 14, 2009, 04:26 AM
.223/5.56 Norinco AK84s is now priced like a new AR, .223/5.56 Mak-90's have to be 'parts compliant' to use a reg pistol grip an that means swapping internals.

BUT: In Norinco guns, Ak-74 mags WILL work if you only load 20 rounds, OR swap out the followers with Robinson armaments .223 followers you can load 30. Real Norinco 30 round mags weren't cheap before the latest buying craze ($45 ish each) but a number of folks say the .223 pro mags work with some fiddling.

gottobe
February 14, 2009, 01:39 PM
Hi, Just signed up..
Need some Pro Mag mod info... I have a Norinco 84s-1 and am trying to mod the pro mags to fit. I see "ifit" has successfully made the mod...
I filed the locking tang to match my original steel mag, but its not locking in and seems to be hitting the receiver. I was wondering should I also be taking some of the shoulder down on the to of the mag?

Thanks any info would be appreciated. and I have looked high and low for Norinco mags, with no luck.
gottobe

C5Cruiser
February 14, 2009, 03:36 PM
The Sig Sauer 556 is a spinoff of the AK-47 HOWEVER tighter tolerances and much better workmanship.

nalioth
February 14, 2009, 04:09 PM
The Sig Sauer 556 is a spinoff of the AK-47

It's a red-headed stepchild that uses features from many rifles that preceded it.

It is not a direct spinoff of the AK. The Finnish RK95 (http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF8&q=finnish+rk95) and Galil rifle (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=galil+rifle&btnG=Search) are.

ds92
February 14, 2009, 04:43 PM
+1. Get a real AK. Why mess with one of the most reliable autoloading mag-fed rifles ever designed?

I sure would love to, but our fearless legislators banned AK's in 7.62x39. A 74 or type in 5.45x39 would be great, but i cant find any cheap ones on gunbroker that arent made by CAI, and i'm not quite sure about the quality of CAI's 74's. Does anybody have one? what are they like?

MD_Willington
February 14, 2009, 04:54 PM
Saiga zealot err I mean fan here.. I've had no issues with mine...

Still looking for one in 7.62x39 though...

Support diversity, buy one of each !!

C5Cruiser
February 14, 2009, 04:58 PM
I see this has become a debate forum.

nalioth maybe I don't know my products very well. Show me where they do not resemble. Remeber I did not say an exact copy but spin-off. You know; derivative, off-shoot?
But to use the phrase “a red headed stepchild” when referring to a Sig Sauer, well them's fighting words my friend! :neener:
I agree that Finnish RK95 and Galil rifle were one of the first to incorporate the AK style and mechanics but if I recall correctly I did not say that Sig was the first to use the idea.

No axe's to grind or ego's to bruise here. :)
I'm always open to new interpolations and ideas. ;)

gottobe
February 14, 2009, 05:21 PM
Hey again,

I was able to successfully get the pro mag to clear the bolt with some more filing on top of the mag..

I haven't tried to chamber anything yet (don't have an empty casing) so until I fire a couple rounds to get some shells, I will leave it as is...

Would be great if "ifit" could post a shot his modified mag (out of the gun) so I can compare it to my modded mag.

Hope to see it..

Thanks

"All's fair till someone shoots at you"

JShirley
February 14, 2009, 06:45 PM
I personally don't like the .223 because it does not penetrate cover

Nothing does. That's why it's cover.

John

HorseSoldier
February 14, 2009, 08:23 PM
+1. If it won't stop a bullet, it's just concealment.

I'm pretty sketchy on the real value of the common "I'll just blast through his cover" argument. Even in a military context, blasting unaimed and unobserved fire through walls can be problematic in a lot of cases. For a civilian who is giving serious thought to a weapon for defensive use, it's a pretty good recipe for law suits or criminal charges in what would otherwise be a good shooting.

Ben Shepherd
February 14, 2009, 08:24 PM
I have a couple of converted 223 saigas. Excellent weapons. Several thousand rounds between them with no malfunctions.

I use the East Germam Weiger mags. Every one of them is dead nuts reliable.

ifit
February 15, 2009, 05:16 AM
gottobe, good to hear you go it to clear. some of my pics to compare, i actually tried loading 30 rounds which i usually dont when i shoot but just curious so out of 30 2 had feeding problems but thats ok w/me

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/promagnorincomagcomparo010.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/promagnorincomagcomparo006.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/promagnorincomagcomparo007.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/promagnorincomagcomparo004.jpg

gottobe
February 17, 2009, 07:13 AM
Thanks ifit!,

Pretty much what I have done..

One thing is my Norinco mags do not have the v notch on the lock tab?? I did have to file the pitch of the tab of the Pro to catch the lock... Also the thickness of the mag had to be shaved on the sides to clear the sides..

I will try try post some pics, work is calling..

Thanks again...gottobe

nalioth
February 17, 2009, 12:27 PM
Some of the Norincos came with a restrictor nub so that only their magazines would fit.

If your mags fit w/o the v-cut, obviously you don't have one of these guns, and the v-cut is nothing to worry about.

gottobe
February 18, 2009, 08:34 AM
Here are some quick shots of what I have done, though I have not fine sanded anything yet... Still want to run some empties through before I do the finishing touches...

dillynfw
March 14, 2009, 06:14 PM
Does anyone make 5.56mm receivers for AK's? Searched the net and couldn't find any by themselves.

harmon rabb
March 14, 2009, 06:46 PM
why **** with success? the AK is a dead nuts reliable rifle that will never jam of **** up. leave it as such.

if you want to shoot 5.56, buy an AR.

Handgunner
March 14, 2009, 07:01 PM
why **** with success? the AK is a dead nuts reliable rifle that will never jam of **** up. leave it as such.

if you want to shoot 5.56, buy an AR.

See post #10.

Henry-Krinkle
March 14, 2009, 09:54 PM
+1 on the VZ, without a doubt the best 7.62x39 rifle out there.

gottobe
March 17, 2009, 07:59 AM
Hey all, My modded pro mag for the Norinco 223 Ak worked great this past weekend..
The 1st mag I modified was the 223, but I found out at a gun show that a 5.45 is a better fit, so I mailed back the 5 remaining mags to Centerfire, and exchanged them for the 5.45 mags. These needed much less filing than the 223 mags, and I was able to fit it tighter than my steel mags (with patience) ..

Also I purchased a VZ58 from CzechPoint that I am picking up this week from my FFL.. I'll post a review on that piece after I get out to the farm for a test shoot... I have heard great things about these guns, and thought it a good choice for an accurate 7.62 chambered gun..

ifit
March 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
gotobe good to hear, i might just look into gettin some 5.45 mags. and congrats on you purchase of the vz58 they are awesome rifles. my bad.........psh

nalioth
March 17, 2009, 05:16 PM
There are plenty of Vz58 threads to post your Vz58 stuff in.

Even better, start a new thread about your lovely outing.

I'm still wondering where this one went from "5.56 AK type" to Vz58s. . .

gottobe
March 18, 2009, 05:18 AM
Thanks ifit... The 5.45 mags are very easy.. about a dozen file strokes on the tab, (more for you for the v notch), and about 6 strokes on the feed area (per side)..
Guess I won't post about the you know what...
or I could start a new thread... just to compare an AK variant to another variant???

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