anybody got pics of .410 next to .45-70??


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BornAgainBullseye
February 13, 2009, 09:49 AM
Reason im asking is that I have just bartered my into a saiga .410 and am dream of creating a .45-70 AK platform. I believe it would be possible and very bad to the bone. I have a full machine shop at my disposal inculding 5 axis CNC and water and lazerjets.... I can't wait...

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Robert
February 13, 2009, 10:57 AM
The biggest road block, at least as it was explained to me once, is getting the rimless 45-70 to feed correctly. I know that the Russians and the British were able to make rimless cases feed in semi auto and automatic weapons but those cases were much smaller. I believe the 45-70 is bigger around than the .410... But you are on to something very interesting, if it works. For what it's worth have you thought about the .458 Win Mag M1 Garand?

Cane you are so correct, they all have rims... I mean I only have like 100 of them floating around in my range bag you would think I could remember these things... In my defense I had not had my coffee yet when I posted the first time.

cane
February 13, 2009, 11:17 AM
My 45/70s all have rims, and .452 bullets. The .410 has a .410 bore, means you would need a new bolt and barrel at the least. Since the overall length (depending on the bullet) is between 2.45 and 2.54" it should feed through your magazine.
Interesting technical project.

BornAgainBullseye
February 13, 2009, 11:25 AM
Yea I was thinking about the barrel... Mabye turn down a blank and fit it to the gas system and trunion to a press fit. Yea .45-70 rimmed government. I dont know what I was thinking about rimless....

FredT
February 13, 2009, 12:53 PM
The proper groove diameter of the .45-70 is .458. See your loading manuals and take note. I'll post your pics in a moment.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/karekanogrl/DSCF6847.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/karekanogrl/DSCF6848.jpg

BornAgainBullseye
February 13, 2009, 01:08 PM
from what I have been researching .410 is way close to .444 marlin.... Still I would have to open up the boltface for the .45-70 just a little like .084" then worry about barrel. If I could get a .410 barrel that has not been chambered. I could have it bored and a .458 liner put in it..... This is sounding easier than I thought..

BornAgainBullseye
February 13, 2009, 01:11 PM
looks like Id have a mag problem!! I will get the gun next week and see how much room there is in the magizine...

rcmodel
February 13, 2009, 01:12 PM
.410 shotgun = 12,500 PSI pressure.
45-70 Trap-Door load = 18,000 PSI pressure.
45-70 Marlin load = 28,000 PSI pressure

7.62x39 case body = .443" dia at the head.
45-70 case body = 504" at the head.

I'd be concerned about having enough chamber wall thickness through the trunnion block & barrel rivit notch when bored out to that large a chamber.

And the gas system would need to be extensively modified to compensate for the almost double or more chamber pressure, and longer pressure curve of the rifle cartridge.

It certainly wouldn't be a simple barrel swap, that's for sure!

BTW: You can't safely put a liner in high-pressure rifle barrels!

rc

BornAgainBullseye
February 13, 2009, 01:14 PM
Mabye try a 20gauge bolt and mag ?? I will see..

BornAgainBullseye
February 13, 2009, 01:15 PM
barrel blank cut down on a lathe, and a very small gas port hole in the barrel to compensate for the higher pressure...

Gewehr98
February 13, 2009, 01:24 PM
It's easier to convert a .410 Saiga AK shotgun into a .444 Marlin AK, vs. the .45-70.

Once you get into cutting metal, you'll figure out why. ;)

Shear_stress
February 13, 2009, 01:30 PM
I can't vouch for the feasibility of this project one way or another, but it would be awesome it you could make it work.

My pie in the sky project would be an FAL in 12 gauge (yup, 2 3/4" shells will fit in the magazines and through the magazine well). You'd need a new bolt, a new barrel (which would still fit in the existing gas block), and some machining of the rails to allow the fatter round to pass through. However, the adjustable gas system would be great for everything from bird to buck shot.

Deer Hunter
February 13, 2009, 01:38 PM
I know for a fact that a guy turned a PSL 7.62x54R into a .50-110. Lemme see if I can find the link...

Deer Hunter
February 13, 2009, 01:40 PM
http://www.gunco.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=13385

Found a picture at least.

Eric F
February 13, 2009, 03:19 PM
maybe its just me but, Instead of modifying for a rimmed 45-70 why not a 458 win mag.........no rim?

Gewehr98
February 13, 2009, 03:58 PM
Rimmed-cartridge AK variants like the Dragunov have worked just fine for a long time. Same goes for the Saiga family of AK-derived shotguns.

The .458 Win Mag, while rimless, is still belted.

That doesn't mean it won't work in an autoloader (witness the Browning BAR in 7mm Magnum), but it would take a little bit of extra thought.

jpwilly
February 13, 2009, 05:13 PM
20GA sounds more realistic. Get a 45-70 barrel blank and go to town on it.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 13, 2009, 05:24 PM
Well, you do realize, of course that someone did do this in .444 Marlin successfully? There was even talk of a commercial conversion business being set up by the guy who did it about 1-2 years back, IIRC. The .444 marlin and .45-70, like the .410 shotshell the gun is designed for, all have rims, so I don't think that's the problem. Dunno if there's some obstacle to doing .45-70 insted of .444 marlin - The bolt face might be too small for .45-70. Unfortunately, I think the 20 ga is gonna be too big, also. I'd probably not try to re-invent the wheel, but just go with .444 marlin, since it's known to have been done successfully, and it's nearly identical to level II .45-70 loadings for all intents and purposes.

bfoosh006
February 13, 2009, 09:18 PM
Wow, darn good idea! If this would work...I'd buy one!.......( for the house,one for the truck,one for the....)

NCsmitty
February 13, 2009, 10:37 PM
If you throw enough time and money into a project you probably can make something work.

A few years ago I messed around with 444 Marlin cases using a Lee hand Loader and cast ball loads shot through my 410 Pardner single barrel. They worked ok, but the extractor was hit and miss. I ended up working the loads up with regular 410 cases.

I think, as Dr. Tad said, the 444 makes more sense as a doable project with minimal problems compared to the 45-70.
The 444 is much closer dimensionally to the 410, and is no slouch. 265gr@2400fps with 3400ft.lb.

NCsmitty

Gewehr98
February 13, 2009, 11:25 PM
I bought a .410 Saiga, and a .458" barrel blank, etc.

I even talked to the folks at Tromix (Tony Rumore), and Krebs.

.45-70 rounds won't fit into the .410 Saiga magazines. Strike one.

Port pressures are "iffy", and would limit you to basically one type of load. Strike two.

The .410 Saiga bolt face needs to be opened up to accommodate the .45-70, something that can be avoided with the .444 Marlin. (.608" vs. .514", with the .410 shotshell's rim being .533") Strike three.

Tromix has done .444 Marlin conversions. He will not do .45-70 conversions, for the above reasons and more.

JImbothefiveth
February 13, 2009, 11:50 PM
able to make rimless cases feed in semi auto and automatic weapons
I thought those are what worked best in semi-autos? What am I missing? :confused:

a .45-70 AK platform
What about an AR in .450 SOCOM?

trstafford
February 15, 2009, 07:18 PM
I thought that the 45 LC is comparable with the .410 as evidenced by theJudge.

http://www.taurus-judge.com/

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