[kannonfyre]

Good Day Fellas,

If you are the captain of a 40,000 ton cargo ship crewed by 24 ex-navy personnel and frequently sail through pirate infested waters, what would you stock your ship's armory with? For this exercise, assume the following:

a) it's legal to have an armed crew;
b) you have $48,000 to spend on weapons and ammo;
c) every crewman must have a personal weapon;
d) you can only have 2 crew served weapons, calibre must be LESS than 12.7mm or .50 Cal.

Would you recommend that your choosen "gun menu" be adopted by the merchant navy?

[Joe Demko]

$36k? Feh. That won't even cover the cost of the 10,000 rounds per weapon per man per day requirement. Restate the problem in realistic terms and I'll give you an answer.

[Sean Smith]

$36,000 will equip ME pretty well, but what would everyone else use?

:evil:

My main concerns would be reliability and corrosion resistance. With an unlimited budget I'd hand out HK P7s and SIG 551s finished in NP3, but that would only arm a few folks. Glocks or S&W 686 revolvers and re-finished AKs would probably be more sensible. You'd also look more like pirates yourselves that way. :cool:

[kannonfyre]

Golgo-13:

Amount changed to give each merchant sailor a $2K allotment. However, I am assuming that they are all ex-military and so won't need training ammo. Just enough ordnance to survive 2 seperate pirate attacks is my scenario.

[iamkris]

Oh, I thought you were describing the annual hunting trip where I get together with a coupla buds for rabbit hunting and shooting.

[highjackthread on]
We call it the MMBH&RB ... Midwest Memorial Bunny Hunt and Rattle Battle.

Likely armory that will show up this year:

M14 NM
SA M1A
M1 Garand .308
Turkish Mauser 8mm
Imbel FN
HK G3
DSA STG58
Yugo SKS
Israeli Mauser 308
M4-gery
Winchester 92 45 Colt
Sig P220
1911s (2 or three)
Blackhawks (45 Colt, 41 Mag)
Ruger MkII
Double Nine 22 LR
S&W 629
Mossy 500
Remingtone 1100
Bennelli M4

[highjackthread off]

[cslinger]

Ok I am basing most of this on USA prices not the fact that much of this could be found much cheaper in other ports.

24 AK-47s of some type or another. Robust, reliable, should stand up to sea duty well, easy to train on, easy to use and most fighting would likely be close in. Figure 300 a piece.

10 Remington 870 Marine Magnums. Again robust, simple, reliable and good for close in firepower. They have the ability to accept a wide variety of specialty shells too such as flares etc. Figure 500 a piece.

1 Barrent 82 .50 rifle. Portable enough to bring .50 firepower to bear where it is needed. Powerful enough to sink most small boats. Good ammo variety and the ability to reach out and touch somebody quite a ways away. Figure $8000ish.

Use the rest for ammo and magazines.

All ammo should be easily acquired anyplace in the world. .50, 12 gauge, 7.62x39. All guns are reasonbly light and handy except the Barret which is still light and handy considering it's capabilities.

If you can't repluse your average band of pirates with this amount of firepower and said trained crew you need a warship.

Anyway I figure $20,200ish for the guns. around $16,000 for ammo and magazines.

2000 rounds of ammo per AK 3840
1000 round of ammo per shotty around 5000
1000 rounds of .50 around 1000

That takes us to 9840.

Use say another 4K for extra magazines and parts and give the rest to the crew to use as drinking money.

Chris:D

[cslinger]

Heck I was basing my info on your first scenario. 2 Pirate attacks!!!! Heck my boys might just start pirating the pirates. I figure we could fend off 2 attacks easily.

For that matter chalk up another 300 bucks out of the crews drinking money because I'm gonna need a parrot.:evil:

Chris

[Leatherneck]

I am assuming that they are all ex-military and so won't need training ammo
Bad assumption. All Momma's chilren with guns need training ammo. :scrutiny:

TC
TFL Survivor

[keederdag]

Since this is a legitimate buisiness, and in international waters most of the time, can't we have so crew served weapons? No real need to pay US prices. Soviet/north Korean/Chinese arms are readily availible and much cheaper. Let's go with a couple of 7.62X54 crew served's; a pile of AK-74's and some of the new Russsian side arm's in 9X19mm. You could pick up either Rem. 870's or Mossberg mariners stateside.:D

[cslinger]

Crew served weapons are expensive and require more training and care. They also tend to be fixed on ships. I would rather my merry band to be mobile. Maybe a few LMGs/GPMGs but nothing larger.

I agree that if we can buy from some of the other ports at discounted prices then my boys get a couple of belt feds and more drinking money and Cap'n Bones(The parrot) gets some crackers. :D

I mean I realize that piracy is pretty organized these days but The amount of firepower you could bring to bear from reasonably well armored positions on a freightor or tanker on any boarding ship would be great to say the least.

Now that I think about it though, how much to Stingers go for these days. Those pesky pirates may have a helo. Ok boys I need to cut into the rum money.

Chris

[keederdag]

Many crew served weapons are not necisarily position weapons, The 1919 Browning .30 was considered a crew served weapon, and it came in several varieties. Anyhow mout e'm or not get at least two beltfeds and load e'm 1 in 5 tracers and 1 in 6 Api. the rest can be standard Ap. I'm guessing from the original question RPG's or stinger's would be out of the question (but nice to have fur fishin):D

[MJRW]

Say about $2000.00 for SCUBA gear. Use the rest on one deck cannon and ammo. Sink pirates. Dive for their weapons.

[OEF_VET]

Well, I'd do most of my shopping in some South East Asian port and save money.

Basic list:
24 AK's or M-16's
12 Moss. 590's
4 PK's or M-60's
4 RPD's or M-249'
24 Beretta 92's
3-4 Dragunov's or Remington 700's
1 Barrett M-82

If there were money left over, I'd try to pick up a couple M-203's or Russian equivalents and maybe a couple M-72A2 LAW's.

Frank

[cslinger]

Oh yeah I'm gonna need a cutless too. :D What side of this are we on again?

[geekWithA.45]

I always wanted to try the Carlos Hathcock scoped M2 trick!

[C.R.Sam]

Leatherneck right....need training allotment and regular schedule.

I don't like the under 12.7/50 cal restriction.

40,000 tonner with so little armament would be fairly easy prey in some waters.

I have seen Junks that would have it outgunned by a lot.

I saw the Nuclear Cruiser Long Beach get run out of town one night by a torpedo boat....she was outgunned.

Sam

[Penforhire]

I'm with the guys here suggesting 870's for everyone and a couple of 30 cal belt-feds. Too many rifles will just put holes in your own boat. I suppose one or two long-range sniper rifles could be useful but, maybe not.

I don't think you can defend a private vessel against torpedos.

[Keith]

The Coast Guard knows all about this stuff.

Shotguns for onboard work and heavy guns for disabling boats by shooting into the engine rooms - M60's or fairly heavy rifles in .308/30.06 class with armor piercing ammo is plenty.

What you have to remember is that vessels are essentially mobile homes with propellers. If you start shooting heavy stuff onboard the boat you are on, you are going to disable the engines or even find yourself in a rubber raft if you put enough holes in the hull - hence; shotguns.

To destroy an enemy approaching you (or fleeing you, in the Coast Guard's case) you want to send rounds into the engine room. Any thirty caliber armor piercing round will generally go end to end in any small to medium sized vessel. If you know where the engine room is, it doesn't take much to make them dead in the water.

Keith

[pale horse]

Where do I sign up?

If you are anticipating problems I might have a security detail of 10 men as well as having all of the regular saliors helping out. So you have 10 men all the time or at least two on at a time. Even the most higly trained soliders in the world still pratice with small arms. You may want to concider that there are some guys who were in the service that were not saliors or gun guys so that is why I suggest the security detail of at least 10 men 30 would be better pending the size of the ship. If it were my ship and I had to outfit my crew I would ask them what they prefer or as someone else suggested give each crew member 2000.00 to pick a pistol and a shotgun or rifle.

If I had to pick weapons they would be.
2 1911s
1 Moss 500a or a Rem 870 with the nickle coating
or 1 AK variant

As for the heavy weapons/crew served weapons I would go with

2 .50 cal Barretts
4 240 golfs
4 249 SAW
2 Ma Duce

If I were you I would get saliors and Marines who have been deployed of have some background in security. So you are not getting a green crew as well as guy who are not afraid of stopping dirtbags. That is just me though.

[jercamp45]

I'd sail to a port to purchase said armaments blackmarket....Cheaply.
An AK for every sailor, might have to go with the 74's to get a couple of grenade launchers(oops!) and a few Krinkov's for boarding parties.
A Handgun for every sailor....maybe CZ-'s, nine's for easy to find ammo
Two LMG's
And, since the first rule of combat is CHEAT....
An RPG(I don't need no stinking rules!!!!!).
I am sure my Captain's Quarters will have a few items of a more personal nature.....including a lively wench.......
Or contract to deliver a load of arms for the required weapons and ammo, then save the cash for port parties!!!
My sailors would probably be required to have one personal firearm each before they signed on. Might even be 'bribed' by the 'gift' of firearms for certain quasi legal actions.
Shiver me timbers!
I think I may have become what I sought to protect myself from!!!!


:evil:
Peace...thru superior firepower!
Jercamp45

[Black Snowman]

That's tough, I'm not familiar with the relavent laws but if you have to be smaller than .50/12.7 that makes it tough. I've seen pictures of modern pirate vessels and a few anecdotes and it's not pretty. Makeshift or even deticated armored vessels are not unheard of.

Keep in mind I don't have any experiance in this but the thinking is: the 2 biggest machine guns you can afford, a shotgun for everyone, because pistols are a last resort and you will most likely be facing body armor making a pistol round next to useless. Powerful back-ups for the crewed guns, prefereably more shotguns. Ammo capable of defeating armor. API for the MG, Flachette and Slugs for the shotguns, FMJ for the pistols.

If you start lobbing API from PKs or M60s and they keep coming they're either crazy or think you have something extremely valuable. Piracy is about making money and losing ships or men isn't a good way to make money so once they're convinced you're not an easy target they'll most likely retreat. If they don't, chances are they're very well equiped and very determined.

Body armor for at least the MG crews would be a good idea.

Since .50s are out my vote for the crew served are:

NATO: M60, FN MAG (Belgium) / M240 (USA), MG-3
Eastern Blok: Pecheneg, PK
Vintage: SGM, MG-42

Depending on your destinations for easiest resuplly 1 Pecheneg or PK and 1 M60 or FN MAG so if only NATO or only Russian is available you can at least maintain half your firepower. If one were more common than the other at your destinations, go with it for both guns and stock up.

Some sort of shotgun for everyone, skip the sidearms except for the weapons crews then I'd recommend something that can penetrate body armor. .44 Mag revolvers or Desert Eagles come to mind. Come to think of it the loaders should still be able to deal with a shotgun.

For the closest thing to anti-ship work possible have SSK make you a bolt action with a wildcat 50 BMG necked down to take .460 Weatherby solid bullets or to save money just get a .460 Weatherby or similarly massive cartridge. Make sure it's in the longest barreled gun you can get.

A LAW or 3 if you could get them would be good. Once there on the ship. Shotguns, shotguns, shotguns. Boarders WILL be wearing body armor so thankfully you don't have to abide by the Geneva conventions and can use flechette ammo, which I would recommend in addition to buckshot and slugs. 5 round gun I'd have 3 flechette, 1 buckshot and 1 slug. in that order. If it's detatchable magazine fed seperate mags of each would be nice (IE the EAA AK style shotguns or the CAWS). A few semi-auto or automatic rifles would be a good idea too for attacking boarding vessels you don't have time to get the MGs on.

You said no .50s but a Barret Mod 82 or M2HB with API would really be your friend. Although I'd feel even better with a Steyr AMR (http://www.steyr-aug.com/amr.htm) or an RT-20 (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm)

So 24 men x $400 for shotgun and ammo = $9600. 4 "battle" rifles for attacking light boarding craft $2400. 4 large handguns for the 2 crew served weapons as backup (have shotguns too in case there isn't time to set up.) We'll say .44 Mag DE because they're 7 shots and can be reloaded quickly and fired quickly without loosing much accuracy. Lets say you get screwed on them even buying in bulk and can't find used. That's $4400 with ammo and an extra mag. Big assed rifle w/ optics (in this case a Weatherby Mk V in .460 with 100 rounds of penetrator ammo and a good scope): $3000. That puts us at $19400 leaving $28600 for machine guns, body armor, extra ammo, magazines, and training ammo.

In the US that would barely be enough for 1 NFA transferable machine gun and associated fun stuff. Hope you're shopping elsewhere or can get it through another channel at realistic costs.

[Dr.Rob]

Arg boarding pikes and cutlass and er brace 'o pistols. Mind ye a swivel gunne makes for fine sport 'o clearing the ganagways.

Long arms should be standardized, sidearms to taste. Long red coat and parrot optional... oh wait you wanna defend the frieghter???

[axeman_g]

Shotguns and then maybe some more shotguns.

ok ... here we go (I am assuming some cost savings for buying in bulk)

14 12 gauge Mossberg Marine or Benneli H2O @ $450 pop = $6300
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976385775.htm
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976334797.htm


24 9mm Ruger P89 @ $300 each = $7200
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976375214.htm


10 7.62x51 DSA FAL @ $850 each = $8500
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976385324.htm


1 M60 = $6000
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976277860.htm

1 M2 = $8000
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12351492

1 Colt Combat Commander = Free I own one. I am the Capitan, I carry whats I want.

Leaves me approx 12k for ammo, clips and Rum.

Ammoman.com
762x51 = 800rds per man, 8000 rds @ $140 per 800 = $1400
762x51 Mags = 10 extra mags per man @ $5 per = $500

762x51 = 8000 rds @ $1400

9mm = 500rds per man, 12000rds = $1200
9mm Mags = 2 per gun with purchase.

12 gauge 00 Buckshot = 400 rds per man, 4800rds @ $250 per 500 = $2400

.50 cal = 5000rds @ $1 per round = $5000

$47,900 dollars on the nose. No Tax please ...

$100 for .45 for the Capitan .....

I will steal the rum.......

[Bigjake]

i hear recoiless rifles do wonders to small craft.....

[bogie]

Spend some cash on radar and night vision. Situational awareness may mean that you can avoid the activity in the first place, or at least know where the bad guys are.

I'd go with a mix of shotguns and light pistol caliber carbines (M11/9 or Uzi), with a pair of light machineguns, and a single M2. Maybe a couple of M14s for discouraging folks at a distance, but the motion of the ocean ain't gonna make for good shot placement.

Find some anti-tank missiles somewhere.

Consider making some improvised anti-boarding weapons - 3-4" black powder cannons (seal the charge with a starter charge inside) full of tacks or nails would be relatively simple to improvise.

[wingnutx]

Claymores at boarding/choke points. You could position them to make sure it all goes outboard to avoid damage to your ship.

[Black Snowman]

bogie Spend some cash on radar and night vision. Situational awareness may mean that you can avoid the activity in the first place, or at least know where the bad guys are.

I KNEW I was forgeting something. Here I thought the body armor was clever. I'll 2nd that suggestion. Avoiding confilict is the ideal.

[Pangea]

If you could get by with LEO or government type purchasing then you could go with about 4 1919A4s, Mossberg 500s for each member and Glocks too. A couple of long range tack drivers to pop the mellons of the foolish ones that stick their heads up. A brace of MP5s wouldn't hurt your odds either.

[DakotaSig]

Shotguns and sidearms are good, but long range sniping doesn't really work at sea (unless you use a machine gun and walk it in I suppose), and the ship likely already has radar and night vision for navigating.

So how about a flamethrower or two? :evil:

Seriously, any good machinist's mate could put one together from spare parts already onboard. It could be plumbed in to the diesel tanks to give virtually unlimited run time. What pirate is going to attempt boarding your vessel through a floating pool of fire? Just make sure the guy at the helm and the flamethrower operator agree on their tactics! :uhoh: :D

Len

[4v50 Gary]

Hate the caliber restriction. Modern pirates in the South China Sea (especially around Indonesia) have been armed with RPG-7s and threaten to blow a hole in the hull. I want a 3" QF to keep them at bay and a 40 mm Bofors too. A recoilless rifle (105 mm min) would help supplement the 50 cals. The 50s have to have tuned triggers and very fine front sights for 1 mile shot. I don't want any small craft approaching me.

Oh, for small arms, FN-FALs or M-14s. I still want the distance. Sidearms will be Glocks M20s and SMGs (for the Master at Arms & myself) will be the HK MP5 in 10mm.

Regarding the "sniping" at sea, there's a thread where I mentioned how the Spanish Navy used snipers to cut the lines on a ship so as to allow the helicopters to land a SWAT team on a N. Korean freighter that wouldn't heave to (and ignored that shot across the bow).

Now, somebody hand me a broom and Splice the mainbrace!

[Parker Dean]

IMO, 48K isn't really enough. That funding, and actually the scenario in general, basically admits that they're likely to get aboard.

The pirate is likely to have a decently ranged weapon, Ma Duece or bigger, and can stand off yet still be able to provide cover fire for the boarding party in the boats. Your crew wll be in unprotected positions unless you've sandbagged some up since you left port and even then not likely to stand up to the pirate supporting fire. Once on board it'll be the worst type of urban warfare-like combat.

Situational awareness will be needed but the pirate is likely to have speed on the merchanter so he will be able to choose his time and place. IMO, avoidance of contact is not likely.

I think something to make the pirate stay well out of machine gun range would be best. A couple of 5in deck guns would be nice, but the bribes necessary would be huge. And then do they stay bribed?

So I'm thinking an anti-tank rocket (you'll have to use it once to get your point across) to keep any support vessel out of support range of the boarding parties so you can use some MG's and light arms to repel.

If they still think you're worth knocking over, they'll run your crew off a few at a time and then use replacements to stack your crew for a mutiny. Then you and your ship get lost at sea in a storm.

[C.R.Sam]

Random typerings.

Gary right.....apt to have rather heavy gun on pirate ship.

Pirate does not have to have much speed if they know their own waters and set a trap. One trap used has been a sacrificial junk putters into the path of the prize ship. collision and subsequent confusion. Then the other pirate boat bumbles into position and boards prize.

Or...pirate has prize vastly outgunned and gives choice, heave to or sink.

Have watched a junk survive a bunch of 20mm hits.
Found nuther junk with twin 50 AA mount
And yet another with a single 40 automatic.

Serious stuff lookin like out of science fiction.

Junks are sneaky. In some waters they are as common as fall leaves in your swimmin pool. Some have very thick hulls and they are well compartmented...ergo very hard to sink or burn.

Then a bit of pirating has been done usin Nasty boats. Thin hulled but fast and can be very heavily armed.

Nastys, PTs and good armament is purchasable on the open market outside of CONUS.

40,000 ton merchant is going to be bout as manouverable as a three legged giraffe on ice skates.

Choppy seas often negate surface radar.

Big flamethrower sounds like a good idea. Fire hose yet.

Ahhh, those were the days.

Sam

[erikm]

Reading this thread I can't help wondering if there's a market for a company to provide armed convoy escort services to merchantmen and tankers in certain parts of the world. I'm thinking of the straits of Malacca and the south China sea in particular.

Figure convoys of 3-6 merchantmen being escorted by 2-3 armed longrange cutters. To avoid angering the local governments too much, the escort company might have to limit its ship weaponry to:
- unguided weapons only, no torps or missiles
- no mortars over 82mm
- no guns over 40mm
- no armed aircraft, manned or otherwise

While a 40mm gun may not sound like much to see off pirates, the average pirate ship won't have radar gunnery and stabilised gun mounts. Or be able to hide very well from airborne surveillance drones.

I wonder how a bunch of pirates would react to (being chased by) a ship with a mounted heavy flamethrower in its armory.

Cheers,
ErikM :evil:

[duckfoot]

.50 cals, AK's, 5 RPG's and lots of ammo

simple

NEXT

ramming speed, Scotty

erikm

I wonder how a bunch of pirates would react to (being chased by) a ship with a mounted heavy flamethrower in its armory.

I like the Idea of the War galley with the Greek fire spewing bow, classic!!

[Mikul]

Ranged weapons are the way to go. Stop them before they get to contact distance.

10 FALs: $6,000
1 M60: $5,000
12 Mossberg Marines: $4,000 (slugs make big holes, but only at 100 yards)
2 MP5Ks: $1,700 (I have seen the LEO pricing and I am ill)
1 Blackpowder cannon: $500 (because)
1 angry parrot: $550
Ammo: $3,000

On my wish-list, but probably prohibited by the rules:
2 Barret .50's
3 grendade launchers and 75 grenades.

The crew should bring their own handguns.