help with ww2 infrared scopes and nightvision scopes info?


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greenr18
February 13, 2009, 10:22 PM
Hi, I have a friend who refuses to believe the Nazis and the US had infrared and nightvision scopes. I've shown them pictures of the early infrared scopes on MP44s but they said they wont believe it with out design descriptions and diagrams of the design, anyone wanna help me out here? I know the US had some M1 carbines in ww2 that had night vision scopes that were huge like the mp44 infrared ones, had large battery packs, etc

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owlhoot
February 13, 2009, 10:34 PM
We had them in Korea. They were called Starlight scopes. But I don't know about WWII.

The Lone Haranguer
February 13, 2009, 10:54 PM
M3 carbine with infrared scope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine#Carbine.2C_Cal_.30.2C_M3)
Night vision scopes used by Americans and Germans in WWII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_intensifier#Generation_0)

Although a work of fiction, this weapon figured prominently in Stephen Hunter's Hot Springs, which took place in 1946.

3LegDog
February 14, 2009, 01:30 AM
Here are two sites with photos of the tank mounted and rifle mounted devices used by Germany.

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/nightfightingpanthers/nightfightingpanthers.htm

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/ir.htm

Sunray
February 14, 2009, 02:16 AM
"...called Starlight scopes..." Nope. Starlight scopes aren't IR. They were light magnifiers and not W.W. II. Vietnam.
"...some M1 carbines in W. W. 2..." Nope. Korea.
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anybody can post any kind of nonsense there. Lots of Internet myths get posted there as 'gospel'.

neededausername
February 14, 2009, 03:10 AM
just did a quick search does this count
German scope for the MP44

ZG 1229 Vampir

http://www.stg.online.pl/vampir.html
http://darksondesigns.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=weapons&action=print&thread=283

American Scope for the M1
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/m1irsnip.htm
These infrared weapons were developed in 1943 by the Army, precisely to defeat the infiltration tactics of the Japanese. Although fewer than 500 units were actually used, the Sniperscope accounted for about 30% of total Japanese casualties suffered by small-arms fire during the first week of the Okinawa campaign.

greenr18
February 14, 2009, 01:04 PM
well i showed him some stuff and he says he believes it now but he said that after i showed him the wikipedia articles which leads me to believe he was just saying that to end the subject haha oh well. it is fascinating though that we had this stuff over 60 years ago though, i think the warsaw pact had copies of the mp44 infrared and nightvision scopes like the czechs with the VZ58 till the mid 70s in fact i think somewhere online i found a czech copy on a website for about $99.99 no clue if it worked but i wish i still knew where to get one itd be an awesome collectors item

Deanimator
February 14, 2009, 01:58 PM
Look in bookstores for the late Ian V. Hogg's various books on German secret projects. He covers everything from exploding pistol bullets to proximity fuses and everything in between.

PvtPyle
February 14, 2009, 07:42 PM
So he doesn't believe you and is too dumb to look into himself. Let it go and move on.

JWHardin
February 15, 2009, 11:40 AM
The T3 hit the Pacific in 45' for combat trials and saw duty as issue in Korea.
The Vampir was fitted both to the MP44 AND the MP40. Have a gutted out unit that was still attached to a deactivated MP40 Smg I purchased in Canada many years ago. Best data I have was that the Vampir went thru combat trials in late 44' to become a very limited issue item in 45'
There are rumors of a Japanese unit based on Vampir technology however none have appeared to have survived

Ingsoc75
April 25, 2009, 12:02 AM
I would be interested in seeing photos of your gutted out version for mp40.

Pack
April 25, 2009, 01:43 AM
The Reich did more with IR than most, so a google using the German language works pretty well.

For example, do an image search of IR scheinwerfer panther, without quotes, to get some great photos.

The first functional prototype of an Ir solution was presented to members of the Heereswaffenamt in 1939, mounted on a 3,7cm PaK 36 anti-tank gun.

It was neglected, at the time, because the staff imposed the absurd requirement that the equipment should only be developed/deployed if it could offer the same hit probability as firing in broad daylight!

In Fall, 1942, an evolution on that equipment was mounted on a 7,5cm PaK 40, with better results - and a lower bar was set in terms of hit capability. It was only then that work began in earnest towards deploying these systems.

You may want to search the designations and nicknames of other IR equipment developed and deployed by the Wehrmacht, including:

Zielgerat 1128, 1221, and 1222
Fahrgerat 1250, 1252, and 1253
Beobachtunsgerat 1251

The technical term for the IR spotlights will be "Infrarot-Scheinwerfer", followed by a numerical expression of the diameter of the searchlight in question.

Informal names for the IR equipment will inlclude:

Uhu (Owl)
Sperber (sparrow-hawk)
Bildwandler (Biwa, for short)

This all stemmed from the introduction of the Braunsche Rohre - cathode ray tube - by the German firm of AEG in 1934.

All of this information is from the book Panther, by Thomas Anderson and Vincent Wai.

They point to handy sources including a lenghty article in the March 1957 issue of the magazine Der Deutsche Soldat.

Actual accounts of the IR equipment in combat use come from eyewitnesses, and are preserved in that article, the photography of Mr. Franz Schmidt, and the book Der Krieg in der Heimat, detailing IR use in combat around the town of Uelzen in the closing months of the war.

Dre
May 19, 2009, 09:12 PM
Excuse me, gentlemen, I seem to have found myself in the midst of your forum quite by accident. You see, I was searching for information on the infrared weapns developed by the Germans during WWII for a model that I am building and a google search showed me a link... and here I am, having almost all of the information I was looking for contained within the replies of this one thread. Thank you, Pack, for research leads I have been looking for!
So, quite by fortune I thank you all.

FWIW, I am building a 1/35 PanzerSpahwagen 234/4 with IR gear because it seems the logical thing to do.

JWarren
May 19, 2009, 09:50 PM
FWIW, I am building a 1/35 PanzerSpahwagen 234/4 with IR gear because it seems the logical thing to do.


We are one of the few forums on the internet that sees that and says... "Hmm... yeah... that IS the logical thing to do..."


:)



-- John

Ingsoc75
September 9, 2009, 05:52 AM
The WTS museum in Koblenz has a ZG1229 Vampir scope on display.

Jezz
June 23, 2010, 10:21 AM
Hi Thread from the dead I guess, I'm new to this forum under much the same circumstances as DRE in post #13 however I'm mearly building a 1/35th panther Ausf G
the twist is however I already built this model and presented it to it's former operator,My grandfarther,to which he as ussual critised every detail including the mention that the last tank he commanded had the nacht jager (IR) sight system.
Intreged by this comment I questioned him further and in much detail he described to me how it appered.
Now he has always been very elusive to what exactly he done during the war and to which unit he was posted however I do know he was captured in the Budapest area in early '45 and was a crewman in various forms on almost all types of tanks used by the germans,however at the same time he has gone into much depth about some experiences thankfully this was one of them whilst he did declare that he was never able to use it in a combat capacity he had trained and qualified on the system prior to being redeployed to Hungary and his decription was not that much in favor of the system for example he has told me that it's perfomance varied within the rev range of the engine and the view through the eye piece was upsidedown and was a dark red colour of which there was no depth perception and left much unseen however it did provide great vision for navigation by night but in his opinion not much else (I assume navigation via the stars?)
whilst I guess it's a very general description and has the obvious depth perception issue I figured it would be of intrest to others as a first hand (well second hand now) account of a system similar to to the above described if not the same.
He is still alive and very healthy to this day I just hope I get the chance to travel to his location with my work to show, if my work will allow me to bring him on base)and show him through some of the latest night vision technology (coincidently it's also german)

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