[Kestrel]

What are the pros and cons to using one or the other for HD?

Thanks,
Steve

[Badger Arms]

That's easy, the 30 carbine is not as effective as the .223, but should do nicely if that's what you have. I'd suggest a shotgun for home defense, but that's just me. If you don't already have a home defense gun and want to choose a gun that you can also plink with, I'd STILL suggest you get another gun... a shotgun for home defense. That being said, most people will probably suggest the .223.

[MolonLabe416]

That's an endless debate.

Either will work for home defense scenarios. The M1 Carbine with JSP or JHP ammo will certainly get the job done at urban defense ranges. See Jim Cirillo of the old NY Stakeout Squad.

The M1 will be a bit cheaper than a base AR. Mags are substantially cheaper. 15 round mags work best, and have plenty of capacity for this purpose. If you opt for 30 round mags, be certain they are GI and test thoroughly (testing applies to GI 15 round mags too, I've just found them to be much more reliable). The M1 isn't an "evil assault rifle" yet. It's somewhat simplier to maintain and operate. Well suited for small statured people without modification.

Blast is very unpleasent indoors, but worse with the AR.

If you want to mount optics, the flat top AR is a better platform, though Ultimak is coming out with a scout mount for the M1.

Otherwise, I see no decisive advantage either way for your application. Atlas Shrugged that contributes here has a wealth of knowledge on the subject. Hopefully he'll see the thread.

Which ever you get, earmark some money for a 3 day carbine class from a known instructor such as Randy Cain, Bill Jeans, Jim Crews, et al.

Good luck.

[cordex]

With the AR-15, you've got more choices as to the size, weight, caliber and capacity of your weapon.

[444]

Other than the fact that they are both semi-auto carbines, I can't see a whole lot to compare.

[son of a gun]

Would a M1 carbine penetrate walls like a 223 would ?
I have both and I would rather use the M1, I only weigh 140 LB's and with the less recoil I think I could get more shots off with it than the AR15.

[Dr.Rob]

The carbine is lighter, and if push came to shove the buttstock makes an effective club, even in tight spaces.

[444]

"Would a M1 carbine penetrate walls like a 223 would ?"

No, the M1 carbine would have significantly greater penetration through walls.

[Sunray]

In general, rifles are not as good as shotguns or even pistols for keeping the riff-raff out. They have far too much penetration and are not as handy as a pistol. Mind you, it takes a lot more skill to defend one's hearth with a handgun. If you firear rifle round at a bad guy who is fleeing you loe your defence of self defence. If you fire at an advancing bad guy and miss, you are still responsible for whatever that stray bullet goes. If said bullet hits somebody it's you who will be going to jail.
Having said that, a .223, with the right bullet, is far more likely to break up upon hitting anything solid like drywall. A .30 cal bullet will just snicker at drywall a it goes through it. Bricks will stop both as will the concrete used between most new apartment buildings. New being any built in the last 30 years.

[son of a gun]

I was thinking that the 223 was more powerful than the 30 cal, and that's why the US military chose the 223 and dumped the 30 Cal. You learn something new every day.;)

[MicroBalrog]

AR-15. No question.:D

[Quartus]

"Would a M1 carbine penetrate walls like a 223 would ?"

No, the M1 carbine would have significantly greater penetration through walls.




444, what are you basing that on? I haven't shot the M1 carbine much, and never tested it for penetration, but I would have thought the opposite. I know the .223 does have a lot more penetration than I would be comfortable with inside my house.




son of a gun, I don't know if you've fired the AR much, but I don't think you'll find the recoil at all bothersome. You can put the buttstock against your chin and fire it with little discomfort.

Accuracy from that position leaves a bit to be desired, though. :D

[son of a gun]

Quartus
I don't think you'll find the recoil at all bothersome.

I confused it with 7.62x39, oops

[Badger Arms]

Quatrus, I agree with 444... for once, lol. The 30 carbine would have significantly greater penetration than the .223. This is also true of pistol rounds, they penetrate greater also. Don't ask me to explain, but the .223 will stop quicker especially if you use hollow-points.

[David4516]

I'm not certain, but I would think that the M1 would have more "stopping power" at close range, particularly with JHPs.

110 gr bullet at 2100 FPS vs 55 gr bullet at 3100 FPS

Another plus for the M1 is that it doesn't look "evil" like the AR does...

[Dave Markowitz]

The reason that .223 penetrates less -- usually -- is because the bullets are smaller and more lightly constructed and tend to fragment. E.g., 5.56mm M193 or M855 Ball tend to break apart at the cannelure when they strike something denser than air.

Even a JSP load from an M1 Carbine will hold together and penetrate more.

That said, I think I'd prefer an M1 Carbine over anything in .223 for home defense. 5.56mm is loud , especially indoors. This is not to say the Carbine is quiet, but it's quieter. Also, unless you have a flash hider, the muzzle blast on a .223 is pretty fierce. Before I installed a FH on my Mini-14 (18.5" barrel, same as M1 Carbine), I saw a 8 - 10" fireball in broad daylight. There's much less blast with an M1 Carbine.

YMMV, of course.

[Quartus]

Well, I haven't done any tests on drywall, but that's news to me. I haven't noticed any lack of penetration on car bodies and old appliances. :D


Never fired one without a flash hider.

[444]

This has been covered many times on this forum but.................
Most .223 ammo, penetrates a short distance, then begins to tumble and fragment. How much it tumbles and fragments is a function of velocity, and is one of this rounds' primary wounding mechanisms. At close range, such as inside your home, velocity at the target (or wall) is pretty much muzzle velocity and anything but a defective bullet will fragment.
In a previous thread I posted the author and results of several studies that were included in the course material for Gunsite's 223, and Gunsite's 556 carbine classes. In these studies it was found that 9mm 147 grain ammo penetrates through structural material significantly more than .223. This is the reason that many (most ?) law enforcement agencies are moving away from the HK MP5 submachine gun to the M4 carbine. You get a far more effective round with much greater ability to penetrate ballistic armor, yet exhibits far less over-penetration.

By the way, having the bullet fragment is not only good to minimize over-penetration. It also greatly enhances the effect on the target. All the energy of the projectile is disapated into the target and the fragmenting bullet creates multiple wound channels.
There really is no comparison between the two rounds. The .30 Carbine is basically equivilent to a .357 revolver. This isnt' bad, the .357 and the .30 Carbine are both effective cartridges at close range providing you are using appropriate bullets. But neither comes close to the performance of a true rifle round.

[Coffee357]

My vote is for the M1 carbine. Less blast and less muzzle flash are a real asset in the dark and indoors (both likely situations in the role you are asking about). As was said, also less evil looking when it gets to court... AND YOU CAN MOUNT A BAYONET!! (though I guess this would negate any politically correctness points you might have gained in the courtroom :D !)

Back to reality...

For outdoors I prefer the AR, indoors I think I would choose the carbine.

Good Luck!!

Coffee

[Quartus]

Sounds reasonable, 444. But then, can I really trust a guy who lives in a place with a name like Pahrump?

:D


Thanks for the info!

[444]

Another point that is often glossed over is the fact that as civilians or even law enforcement officers, we don't have to use military ammo in our carbines.
A military bullet has a tough row to hoe. It is expected to penetrate light cover, ballistic armor, light armored vehicles etc. yet also fragment/expand/tumble............ in flesh. If you have spent any time at all researching bullet performance you realize that this is almost an impossible task with two polor opposite goals. For penetration you want the bullet to stay together, but in flesh you want the bullet to come apart; all in one bullet. And we want all this to happen over a wide velocity range in anything from a 20" M16A1 to a 14.5" M4 over a range from the muzzle out to as far as you can hit someone.
As civilians, we don't have that problem. For the most part, we would be defending ourselves against other people who are wearing common street clothing. Therefore, if we get away from military bullets, we can use bullets that do not have the steel core that gives it the penetrating ability. As an extreme example we could use a bullet like the Nosler Ballistic Tip, or the Hornady V-Max which basically explode on impact. I have shot ground hogs with these bullets and couldn't find a mark on them. In other words, the bullet penetraged an inch or two and then completely disintegrated in the few inches of flesh that makes up the cross section of a ground hog making no exit wound. The bullet expended all it's energy in those few inches of flesh. At close range, these bullets will blow apart a small animal like a ground hog or a jack rabbit: the bullet is close to muzzle velocity and "explodes" on impact. These bullets would proably lack the nessessary penetration needed for a bigger animal like say.....a human. But we can also use softpoints or whatever. In .223, there are bullets out there ranging from AP, to varmint bullets. You can tailor your load to suit your intended target.
A popular law enforcement load is the Hornady TAP (Tactical Application Police). The ones I have seen are marked; TAP URBAN and consist of a polymer tipped bullet weighing 60 grains with a muzzle velocity of 2950 fps. The bullets look just like Hornady V-Max bullets to me, but I have no idea if that is what they are or not.

[curt]

I have a M1 carbine and will be building another soon, fun guns to shoot that would no doubt stop a badguy with the proper shot placement. I won't get into debates on caliber effectiveness, i think that people agonize a little too much about calibers and not enough on mindset, tactics, training and practice. I'm pretty sure who would win in a fight between a cool headed shooter with a 22 and some guy who spends too much time on the internet and waiting on the BBT (hey! i resemble that remark!) with the latest and greatest.

That being said i'd choose the AR over the M1 any day, its got better ergonimics (mag changes, one handed shooting), better potential for sights and lights and , i may be going out on a limb here, its more reliable than a 50+ year old rifle. I 'm not saying the design of the carbine is bad, i'm just saying that its older than me (and thats old) and i doubt if you put 10 or 20 of them through a gunsite/TR etc week long class that many would come out the other end.

[Wyobuckaroo]

Howdy
My M1 carbine and I have more miles on us than you and your Ar do. But all that aside, we would do a better job than may would think, even in an AR oriented "tactical event." Better than a lot of people would think.

That is to say, I have had people on the other end of my carbine that did not have good intentions in mind. Another story, not here, not now.

Mind set is more important than equipment........
Enough about that.
Wyo

[capt_happypants]

Hornady's TAP uses the V-Max or A-Max bullet, is loaded slightly hotter, and is supposed to have a flash retardant in the powder. WRT to penetration, TAP generally delivers about 9-10 inches in ballistic gelatin. Depending on the angle of entry, that may not be enough to end the fight right there.

The fine folks at the uber-cool www.ammo-oracle.com site recommend the heavier (60-75) grain TAP load for optimum terminal effects.

[106rr]

The M1 carbine with Win or Rem softpoint penetrates about 16 to 18 inches and expands to .57 - .63 inches. Low blast - Low flash - Very PC
AR-15 would work but has high flash - high blast - Bad PC.

[JShirley]

Use what you like.

SP .30 Carbine will penetrate like the dickens, from my experience. 50 grain .223 HP will penetrate little.

Gainst people, I reckon it's a tossup. If you're preparing for armored targets, .223 would be preferable, whereas I would be more comfortable with that larger, heavier round if I planned on shooting at anything large besides agressive humans.

Of the two, AR15 in 7.62x39 with decent ammo would be the best choice IMO*. I would still take the M1 Carbine, though- since I don't trust the AR15/M16 family of weapons.

John


*cheap ammo; deer-hunting ability; better performance at close range than .223 with good bullets

[Black Snowman]

My home defense gun is the Bushmaster M17S bullpup. For several reasons. Minimum length in a carbine 30", low recoil, lots of energy e=m*(v^2) can penetrate body armor (yes, the bad guys can wear it too), low penetration on building materials and cheap to practice with. Not sure how good the 55 gr HP I have will be on body armor but I've got 30 of them on tap in each magazine and each one has about as much muzzel energy as a .44 Mag.

In addition to low penetration in walls another thing I like about the .223 over a .30 carbine is nervous system shock. In theory the higher velocity round is more likely to cause major CNS shock that will stop an intruder than the .30 carbine. The .30 carbine has to rely more on hydrolic shock and I don't feel it big enough to do that as effectively as the .223 does with the nevous system. I don't have any proof to back this up, just basing it on 2nd hand word of mouth, and a lot of it from my Dad so take it with a grain of salt. ;)

Loud and big flash? Ya, but I'm not going to care much in HD situation. They'll be getting the brighter and louder side of the muzzel and I'll be expecting it. It won't be pretty but it's an acceptable risk for me.

PS: For those of you worried about the M17S' reliablity, I am too. Gonna put it to my own personal battery of tests at the range soon. If it hickups at all, I've got an excuse to buy another gun ;)

[5pins]

.223 Penetration Test (http://www.olyarms.com/223pen.html)

[Black Snowman]

Good stuff 5pins. That's kinda what I thought, now I have some more specific info to go by. I'm confident I have the ammo I want. I'm confident I have the gun I want. I just hope my ammo works reliably in my gun ;)

[Keith]

Now, wait a minute!

You guys are basing your Carbine penetration on GI ball, then going to hollowpoints when referring to the .223... Who would use ball ammo in a home defense situation?

They make softpoint Carbine ammo and no doubt that load has considerably less penetration.

I don't know which rifle would make the best home defense choice (no doubt, they'd both serve...), but at least base your opinion on a load that makes sense!

Keith

[Captain Scarlet]

for home defense over the AR15 because the M1 is good enough, the range
that you would use it in a home defense crisis situation would most likely be less than 10 yards, the AR15 is better suited for out in the field or longer
ranges.

The M1 carbine stows easier in small spaces and is very light weight, simple,reliable, fast handling. more politically correct if you ever shot an
intruder with an M1 it wouldnt look as "menacing" as the evil Ar15. :evil:

[JShirley]

Keith,

The M1 Carbine soft points I shot appeared to have several times as much penetration as the 50 grain Federal .223 HP. (3x as much water, a steel door, an old log, and deeper than I cared to dig out of the bank!) If I have a chance, I do plan on testing some .30 Carbine hollow points. Hopefully, their penetration won't be so excessive.

John

[chaim]

Hmm, a variation of the neverending debate (of course that is a good thing, it keeps internet forums like this in business and one can always come away with new insights).

For my HD long gun I'm considering most of the main suspects. .223 carbine, M1 Carbine, shotgun or .357mag (or other revolver caliber) lever gun. All have their own unique advantages but all also have their disadvantages (especially v. each other).

The .223 has very little overpenatration (less than most handgun rounds) at HD ranges. At such ranges it should have decent stopping power. However, as noted blast and flash are possibly too much for indoors without hearing protection.

An M1 Carbine (and the lever guns in .357mag) will overpenatrate far more. However, it isn't going to be too bad if you hit your target and use proper ammo. At these ranges, stopping power should be similar to .223.

For me the decision maker is what happens after. In court, especially in a non-gun friendly state like MD (where I am), the prosecution will try everything to get you and the plantiff (in the civil case) will do the same. Most .223's that people seem to want to use look like EBRs. The M1 Carbine is "grampa's gun" and the lever rifle can go one better. The only .223's I'd consider are guns like the Mini-14 with a wood stock that give plenty of accuracy for HD purposes but, potentially, don't look as "bad" in court. I suppose one could go too far with this and say "then use a .223 bolt rifle" but I'd want the Mini's semi-auto capabilities. If the hands down best choice is an EBR I'd use an EBR. However, there are several good choices that won't be as likely to prejudice a prosecutor (better if he doesn't even press the charges) or jury so personally I'd prefer the blued metal and wood to the black "assault rifles".

I may go with the Mini (because I want one) and use it for HD for a while. I also want an M1 Carbine and may go with one for HD for a while also. However, I plan to acquire a .357mag lever gun as my perminant HD gun- less noise and flash, good stopping power (esp. out of a 16" barrel), lightweight and very handy, can load on the run (can easily top off after a few rounds), a good lever action is very quick (nearly as quick as a semi, maybe quicker w/ training), less overpenatration than the M1 Carbine especially with .38spl or .38+P (though admittedly more than the .223), and looks very "PC". If it was only the AR v. M1 I'd go with the M1 due to less noise and flash and the more "PC" looks. It would be nice to have an AR or Mini-14 on hand as well (eventually anyway) for times that it might be better (or if you simply want something different occasionally) but that isn't really my first pick for day to day home defense.

[444]

A couple recurring themes here. If you value the appearance of the weapon over everything else, especially for legal purposes I can't see how you could beat the lever action. Out of eveything named, it would be the most PC. To me, I don't see the M1 Carbine, a Mini-14, or a short barreled shotgun as being any more PC at all than an AR15. It would seem to me that the best lever action stictly for HD would be the .357. It seems to me to be the best compromise. It has enough power, the chances of getting bullet expansion are good, yet it will have less over penetration than the .44 Mag or .30-30.
I don't for a moment believe that "At these ranges the stopping power should be similar to a .223" but the .30 Carbine, .357 Carbine or shotgun will certainly be adequate.
One thing I keep reading on this thread: The .223 is going to have the most blast and flash................ The .223 is the only one that can be used with a flash suppressor (unless you count that funnel looking thing that clamps on a .30 Carbine barrel). A .223 with a Vortex flash suppressor makes no flash at all in pitch darkness. Even a muzzle brake significantly reduces the flash signature.

[Atlas Shrug]

Well, the best answer would require more specifics from SteveW13, but I don't think he's posted since the first question. Thus I'll throw out some general comments that will hopefully apply. The following is of course IMHO.

Just one gun is not the answer for home defense. You need two. One should be a long gun, the other a handgun. You also need at least one flashlight, perhaps two.

Thus your setup might be:

1. a sturdy belt with:
a holstered handgun ready to go
a flashlight (Surefire 6P, Scorpion, or equiv)
a spare pistol mag (best if sharing a common mag holster with the flashlight)
a set of house keys
maybe a whistle (communication system if worked out with others)

2. A good long gun, preferably with:
a quality integral flashlight (or at least a robust mounting)
a decent sling
high visibility, low light sights

This way, you "lead" with a long gun with quality flashlight. If this does not solve the problem due to distance or malfunction, etc., you transition to the handgun (usually with the second flashlight).

Personally, for most folks the best long gun is a shotgun. For example, a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 with an integral Surefire light fore end, a side saddle, and a good but simple sling. Perhaps a "team sling" style IF and only if you've trained with it a bit.

That said, I love the M1 carbine idea. For me, I have not set one up to replace my shotgun, though. My house is suburban in setting, so the shotgun will do. If I'm out in the sticks in my cabin, the rifle would be better IF I had a light mount (I'm working on a good one for the M1 carbine - plenty exist for the AR15 now).

Of course the real answer is you must use whatever you are competent with and confident in. AR or M1 carbine will both do the trick. Ammo and penetration differences do exist as others have noted. All of this must be factored into your decision criteria before a "correct" answer can be identified.

Other input should be how much time and training you will put into the guns. For an AR-15, you need to REALLY make sure that yours is 100% reliable before you trust it. The age of the M1 carbine is not an issue. MANY 50+ year old guns are chugging right along, often better than newer guns.

Off the shelf, many more attachments exist for the AR. However, IMHO, a home defense gun needs only ONE attachment - an integral flashlight. To set one up requires some time, some money, and some effort.

One other MAJOR point for CQB with an AR is the sight offset. At spitting distance, you've got a couple of inches between the POA and the POI. This can be deadly if you have to tap a bad guy in the forehead as he holds your wife/child/other innocent. This is TOUGH to control without lots of stressful practice. For me, this is way too much to neglect and is another reason I don't use the AR. With an M1 carbine, the POA and POI are essentially the same from spitting distance out to 50 yards, so you don't have to train to overcome this. Ditto with a shotgun.

I like simple solutions, and the AR is just a bit complicated for me. Somewhat like the point of DA autos requiring you to know two trigger pulls. I don't like this, so I stick with the simple 1911 system that works the same way for every shot.

The shotgun also has the potential advantage of LOTS of ammo options. This is "on the fly" compared to most any rifle set up. Depending upon your circumstances, this might sway the outcome.

Thus much depends upon how much training and preparation the user will realistically put into his defense system. For most casual but serious folks, I strongly recommend a pump shotgun as described above, with the handgun belt set up as describe above. All safely stowed for your circumstances, but also easy to get to QUIETLY in complete darkness.

If you are more serious and/or have a specific need for a rifle, the choice is more complicated. As much as I don't care for the AR family (honest bias here), it is easier to set up with a good flashlight system, albeit at cost. If you do so, research and follow advice on ammo and other set ups. The M1 carbine is better FOR ME, since I'm willing to put in the extra time to get it RIGHT for me, which means a robust flashlight mount as an absolute minimum.

If you go with a rifle, FOR SURE get proper training as recommended. Shooting your rifle in house/urban situations is much different than most practice on a rifle range. Awerbuck/Cain/Crews/etc. are all good as noted, others too. Obviously, you should get proper training for shotgun and pistol as well, but the average person already (hopefully) realizes that, while they think that they can just take a rifle that they normally use in the field or the rifle range and make it a house gun. Not so. The gun must be set up for short range use, and you must practice with it in close quarters situations. If not, an unpleasant surprise is likely.

I know that this likely strays from the original question, but I hope it makes some folks think before getting a rifle for home defense because they like rifles. I love rifles. I'm more of a rifleman than and handgunner or shotgunner. However, my home defense TOOLS are primarily a handgun and a shotgun. They are for serious work, not fun toys. I have rifles set up for serious work too, but they are normally intended for field use, where they excel. In the house, generally handguns and shotguns excel (if properly set up, of course.)

I hope that this helps.

[MolonLabe416]

Atlas

You might try the GGG mount, or cheaper a length of Weaver rail, simply bolted to the side of the stock. Slip on an Insights M3 light and you're good to go. You can get a rail for your 1911 as well and use the same light for pistol and long arm.

I carry a Glock, so it's already set up with an integral rail. I just add the GGG mount on the long arm, and off we go. It's not as bright as a dedicated SureFire mount, perhaps a bit less durable, but Insights has introduced a Mil-Spec light this year, so that problem is solved.

Being able to swap between platforms is a great advantage IMO and I like the design of the controls on the light. Easy to toggle to momentary on, or toggle the other direction for continuous on.

Not as bright as a SureFire as mentioned, but plenty bright enough for any realistic situation, just perhaps not bright enough to "tactically blind" someone. Of course, it's much lighter and much less expensive.

I prefer to mount at the 1600 position for manipulation with my support hand. (I'm right handed obviously). This keeps the light out of the way when slung with either a conventional sling or team sling. I use African carry almost exclusively with just a strap, or Ching Sling on a real rifle. I find this doesn't catch on things, poke me in the back, or interfere with the forward mounting of the sling better than other mounting positions I've tried.

[Sven]

Only option of the two available for me in CA is the M1 Carbine.

[Atlas Shrug]

Molonlabe416,

You are quite right about the GGG mount and/or weaver rail. I've been looking at catalogs a bit trying to find some generic weaver rail, which I can cut to length. Most seem to be customized for a specific mount/gun, but perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place. All that I want is aluminum weaver rail in say one foot lengths (could be less), with cross slots every inch or so (I think that's the standard spacing). It does not need mounting screw holes, but if it has them that's OK too. IIRC what Brownell's had was pricey. I need to check again, though.

If I can get this rail, I plan to use it with the First Samco (Fobus) mount that fits a Surefire 6P sized light (a Scorpion sized mount is also available). This also gives me the opion of moving the light from mount to mount, and is only $25 or so. I have one on a Surefire G2 (I think that's right - it's the new polymer framed light of 6P size). It should work well for such a setup.

Your M3 solution is fine too, but I don't have one and do have several 6P sized lights, so the above is more cost effective for me at this time (it also allows the light to revert back to weapon-less configuration in under a minute if need be).

I agree on your preferred mounting location when using such a setup.

In addition to this, I'm playing around with mounts that utilize the M1 carbine bayonet mount. I also need the weaver rail to make this project practical.

Anyone know of a good source for reasonably priced weaver rail?

[boyanzhu]

A couple of people favored 30 Carbine because of lower muzzle blast.
I'm with them. There is a cheap way to estimate the muzzle blast differences by using internal ballistics modeling software.
I have a copy of it installed on my computer.
So, I made an assumption that muzzle blast is related to gas pressure at the moment when bullet exits the muzzle and ran some numbers:

110gr bullet out of 18.5" 30 Carbine: 3500-3800psi.
This pressure is close to pressures created by 124gr 9mm pistol
from 4" barrel or to 45ACP 230gn from 5" barrel

75gn bullet out of 20" .223: 8200-8900psi
This pressure is close to 30-06 180gn out of 24" barrel

Finally, another interesting number:
125gn bullet out of 16" 7.62x39: 5600-5900psi

There is a bunch of other assumptions I made, such as powder types and amounts. I chose N110 for 30Car, Varget for .223 and N120 for 7.62x39 out of the blue. I kept max chamber pressures 15% below the SAAMI max, hotter loadings would produce more blast.

[Quartus]

Only option of the two available for me in CA is the M1 Carbine.




Well, it could be worse. At least they still permit you to have a gun. :(



That's a true statement. Which is pretty sad.