[1KPerDay]

I have 3 italian cap/ball revolvers that I'd like to take shooting. They all are badly out of time, which would appear to be the only issue preventing their use. A Walker, a Paterson and a 3rd model dragoon. I have been told all are Italian of 60s or 70s vintage (all marked GM on the cylinders; the only marks other than the replica colt marks on the barrels; anyone know who made them?)

After the bigiron barrels fiasco (which I luckily missed; I was in the process of getting a quote from them and preparing to send them these revolvers) I'd like to know if there are any reputable 'smiths that can get these pistolas into shooting condition. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

thanks!

[pohill]

Have you thought about doing the work yourself? The Paterson might be a challenge but the other two shouldn't be too hard to fix.

[1KPerDay]

perhaps for someone smarter than I...


OTOH, I suppose if I make them more out of time it's no big loss. Any tips/info/resources?

[pohill]

I would never try to work on a modern gun but I've had pretty good luck working on these (like I said, the Paterson is a different animal, but you're halfway there by spelling it with one T). Between this forum, the Voy forum, and the Firing Line forum, there's plenty of tabletop gunsmiths that are willing to help. Not to mention some great books out there (David Chicoine's GUNSMITHING GUNS OF THE OLD WEST is a good one).
I'd start by posting one question at a time, describing what the gun is or is not doing (ex: cylinder spins too far, not far enough, won't lock in place, etc).
The answers and the fixes are usually fairly simple. You might get differing opinions but they'll all point to the same place.
You can send the gun out and have it worked on (lots of time and money involved) and when you get it back it might be perfect, until the next time you shoot it. Or something might go wrong at the range that needs immediate attention, and by knowing what makes these guns tick, and how to keep them ticking, you can handle it then and there.

[1KPerDay]

I'd certainly like to be able to fix them myself.

Are the adjustments needed... possible without new parts? Or are generally new parts required?

I'll take another look and post up the exact problems as you suggest. thanks

[arcticap]

Maybe one of these conversion gunsmiths also do general C&B gunsmithing and would help to get them shooting:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=425630

[1KPerDay]

thanks; I'll contact them

[dlon21]

Hey 1KPerDay!

I fixed my original Colt Police with help from *Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One* and *Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two*. Very great guides, I found them on this site or thefiringline.com. And I have Dave Chicoines book too, it's great. If I could fix my gun, I'm sure anybody can:)

// Daniel

[scrat]

Dont be afraid of your local gunsmith. I have a pretty good one near by for me. I had asked him how much to tune up a revolver. Going through all this. The gunsmith pretty much explained what was the process and everything. The cost to tune it up and have it balanced like a clock was 60.00. Which really isnt that bad. When i bought an R&D cylinder for my WALKER i gave my smith the gun and the cylinder. A few days later picked it up. The cylinder did not need much work. But for it was really dialed in. Same thing for me time was of the essence. I had no time to even look at it myself and i needed it done right away so i can take it out. So spending the money was cheap. Same time its really dialed in.

[AdmiralB]

I don't know where you're located, but there's a guy in Greenwood Indiana that does warranty work for Cimarron.

[1KPerDay]

I'm in utah, and I don't know of any good gunsmiths around here. The one or two that are somewhat known have a lot of bad word of mouth. I'm a bit leery.

If I could get them running for 60 bucks each I'd be extremely happy.

Hey Daniel... you wanna fix mine? :D

[pohill]

What is the Dragoon doing or not doing? That is a pretty basic gun.
I got my Solitude hat on and I'm ready...

[madcratebuilder]

I would down load and print the two "Tuning_the_Pietta".pdf files. Add a set of good jewelers files, hard stones, hollow ground screw drivers and your a table top gunsmith. The Walker and Dragoon are very basic revolvers, the Paterson is more complicated but doable. It just has more parts.
There are several talented guys here that can walk you down the path.

[Voodoochile]

I've been doing most all my own gunsmithing for over 25 years now mostly because I grew up with little $$$ & if it broke I learned how to fix it & my G-Pa taught me.

If you can ive us a description of what is going on we can point you in the general direction for fixing it.

But otherwise a local gunsmith is a good source to start.

[1KPerDay]

I'll try to take some vids and see if I can describe exactly what's going on with each one. Thanks for the info!

[1KPerDay]

If you were going to attempt to fix these yourself, what files would you need? Part numbers from brownell's would help. I'm going to put in an order for some other stuff and would like to combine shipping.

I have gunsmithing screwdrivers already, but no files or stones.

thanks!

[pohill]

I would not order anything until I knew what I needed. Might be a loose screw, a spent cap, etc jamming the works.

[dlon21]

Hey 1KPerDay!

No you had better send it to a real gunsmith. Tried mine today and found several things I need to correct. But those pdf's are great. I've used diamond files, and hollow screwdrivers mostly; fairly standard issue in most toolboxes? Most folks have these at home I guess.

// Daniel

[1KPerDay]

well I ordered a diamond file and india stone from brownells (along with some cylinder yoke bushings and a Kunhausen shop manual for my S&Ws)... see how much damage I can do. :rolleyes:

[Macmac]

Pick one of them and state what it does wrong... The cylinder _ _ _ _ ?

1 goes to far?
2 doesn't go far enough?
3 doesn't lock?
4 moves part way and the hammer gets loose?
5 moves part way and the lock bolt pops up to soon?
6 can't be cocked
7 what?

It may or not need a new part(s)

It will need something in tools no matter what.

[Hellgate]

Rowdy Yates is an excellent C&B smith. He's in Calif.

[1KPerDay]

Pick one of them and state what it does wrong... The cylinder _ _ _ _ ?

1 goes to far?
2 doesn't go far enough?
3 doesn't lock?
4 moves part way and the hammer gets loose?
5 moves part way and the lock bolt pops up to soon?
6 can't be cocked


Hey Mac... how you been? :cool:

Okay... the Walker:
Hammer locks back before the cylinder is fully rotated into position. If I continue to retract the hammer back past its notch, the cylinder rotates into position and locks on 5 of 6 chambers. On that one I have to rotate the cylinder by hand. The hammer also has almost no resistance during the first part of the travel and then gets very hard near the end of travel. the clinder lock bolt (if that's what it's called) seems to function properly on this one.


the Paterson:
Similar to above except the cylinder never rotates fully into position even if I continue to retract the hammer rearward past its notch. If I rotate the cylinder by hand after cocking the hammer, the lock bolt engages properly.

The 3rd Model Dragoon seems to be in the worst shape, at least from what I can guess:
The cylinder latch doesn't lock usually--

The hammer travels well past its notch, and the cylinder rotates past center on each chamber--

Here's a couple of crappy videos I shot to try to show the problems.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/th_Capandballcoltsoutoftime001.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/?action=view&current=Capandballcoltsoutoftime001.flv)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/th_Capandballcoltsoutoftime002.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/?action=view&current=Capandballcoltsoutoftime002.flv)

[Hellgate]

Dragoon: take the trigger guard off and check to see if the trigger & bolt spring is broken. It looks to me that the bolt is not rising toward the end of the cocking action and the cylinder over travels. If the spring is OK then the bolt is either broken or the cam on the hammer is not engaging the bolt arm to move it up & down while cocking. I'm gonna pass on the other gun's undertravel. I have some ideas but would rather give no info rather than the wrong info. I think the fixes are not going to be all that difficult. Mainly replacing parts. BTW the videos were not "crappy" at all but were very well done.

[Voodoochile]

Those were perfect..

The Walker & the Paterson:
The hand is just a tad too short, ordering a new hand "it comes with a new spring attached & is always too long" & stoning the hand to get the proper length will fix those.
Patience but diligence is key to perform this fix, prefitting it to see how far you can cock the hammer till the bolt stops the cylinder "or over rotation" then stoning the top & tip slightly as you go to get it the right length that you need for proper timing.

The Dragoon is more than likely a Trigger/Bolt spring because if the spring was working but bolt's leg was broken then you wouldn't be able to move the cylinder at all.
This is a real easy fix because only minor fitment "stoning" is necessary to have the spring sit right in it's recess.

Question:
Are they originals or well worn copies?
They look good.

[pohill]

Those videos are actually pretty good for describing the problem.
First of all, put the Paterson aside for now. The hands, springs, bolts, etc are not at all like those on the other guns. The Paterson will be a challenge.
Also, Uberti and Pietta Patersons have slightly different internals from each other.
As you take the guns apart, take pics of each step, of each part's location, and take note of what it does and why it does it. Refer to a schematic from VTI for info. Look for loose screws and pieces of caps and crap inside the gun. Clean everything off so you can see it better.
Keep in mind that the mainspring on the Walker is different from that of the Dragoon. The Walker mainspring can take out an eye when it's released.
The technical shooters on this forum will be able to guide you step by step.

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=8&cat=Uberti+1847+Walker

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=7&cat=Uberti+3rd+Model+Dragoon
http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=20&cat=Uberti+Paterson+Without+LL

[1KPerDay]

Thank you... where do you recommend I look for parts? I don't even know who made these. The only marks that I can find apart from the replica colt markings is a GM on each of the cylinders. I assume that means they were all made by the same company. Pietta or Uberti or EMF or whatever it was back in the 70's.

Voodoochile, they're (I presume) Italian replicas... if they were originals I'd be retired now. LOL :D

They appear to have been "antiqued" by the factory. There are some random dings/marks applied in places where there wouldn't be dings from regular use, for example. I like the finish, though... they do look old. I have a buttstock for the Dragoon, also.

[Macmac]

1K I am as ok as i ever get.

Last year i fixed a 1858 colt clone for someone here, but he seems to no longer post, and I firget what his user name was.

His bolt spring was broken and the cam on the hammer was worn round, so the bolt slipped off too early. He supplies spare parts, I think he got from Dixie Gun Works.

I am not sure what to tell you, as I don't know all the makes well enough. I just fix this sort of stuff on rare occasions.

This fixing creates a lot of study time, and asking Old Fuff many questions.. So I can't say it is 2nd nature for me, and certainly isn't done fast.

That 58' had a bad hand too. I had to make a special shim and fit that to the hammer to fill in the worn out hole for the hand peg.

I had that gun here atleast 90 days.

Voodoochile's words make sence to me.

If you can find no better service I am willing to try, but i think you would be better off with a real expert.

[1KPerDay]

Appreciate the offer, Mac... I've had a couple of knowledgeable guys PM me with links and offers to help; I haven't heard back from any of the professional cap/ball shops yet but I may.

I'd certainly like to be able to fix them myself; I'm pretty good with my hands but have never gotten into the guts of a revolver yet. I guess if I screw them up more it's no big deal; I can't use them as is anyway. LOL

I sure would like to know who made these if anyone could tell me, though. I suppose the chances of getting parts that would fit from the same maker would be a bit higher that way.

[pohill]

If I can take this apart and put it back together, you can do it with your Colts. And I didn't have any "extra" parts when I was done.
http://i43.tinypic.com/i4q26t.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2rx6ssl.jpg
Take the guns apart a piece at a time, document everything, take pics and notes, and I really think you'll see how easy it is, and how much fun it can be.
Plus, if you plan to shoot them, someday you'll be at the range and something will jam and you'll either drive home with a loaded cylinder, or you'll fix it at the range.
The problem with your guns seems to be in the hand and spring, or the bolt and spring.
VTI is a good place to buy parts.

[BHP FAN]

Check your hand and spring.You can order them from VTI gunparts if you need to. They are acting like the spring is weak,or broken...or maybe just packed with grease.

[BHP FAN]

Pohill.you DA MAN! I've worked on some guns,but would Never Have Even Attempted That...

[pohill]

I took my time and took lots of pics as I went along. There are no schematics for that gun, though I did find a patent. The funny thing is, it's actually easier (at least as easy) to put together than a Colt.
I emailed David Chicoine for help with one part and he got back to me within a day.

[Voodoochile]

Umm Pohil, I think I found that dinghy screw you lost from it. :rolleyes:

[pohill]

I know I lost some brain cells when I reassembled my Paterson the first time. The Uberti and Pietta schematics didn't help much. I found an original patent which did help, that and calling Smokin' Gun on the other side of the country (I got the gun from him). But, I got it all back together and now it's one of my favorites.

[Macmac]

1K, I have never held a Paterson, or a Walker.. That 3rd Model might be like a 1858 or a 1860, which I do know about. So if you need any How To to take that apart I might be able to help.

If all fails, and you wish, I will do what ever it takes.. I don't need to have seen one of anything before to take it apart and fix it. I just need it and my grubby mitts and I can fix anything another man made, except wrist watches, computers and broken hearts.

[1KPerDay]

I'm great at taking things apart. Getting them back together is a different story. :D

[arcticap]

Thank you... where do you recommend I look for parts? I don't even know who made these. The only marks that I can find apart from the replica colt markings is a GM on each of the cylinders. I assume that means they were all made by the same company. Pietta or Uberti or EMF or whatever it was back in the 70's.


It may not even matter what outfit made your revolvers since some parts may need to be hand fitted and many are interchangable.
Searching in several data bases is inconclusive yet interesting in that there are multiple possibilities. But because there's little backgroud information except for the letters "GM", speculation is as good as it gets. But it's still fun to ponder.

The letters "GM" by itself correlates to a German maker of rifles and shotguns which the data base only states not to confuse with General Motors. It doesn't mean that they didn't make BP revolvers, but there are no records to trace as with any of the pistol smiths mentioned.

In another data base of all modern Italian pistol smiths, sometimes the letters correlate to the initials of known names or outfits. And there's several gunsmiths that have GM as their initials. But we don't know what they made or marked on their guns. One such example is what the NCIC data base lists as GMB, GambaMFd. by LaAmeria Fratelli Gamba, which there were Gamba Italian pistol smiths back in the 1970's. Among the Gamba families were pistol smiths Renato Gamba, Giovanni Gamba, Guiseppi Gamba, Marchio G. Gamba, and even a Battista Gamba.

Among other Italian pistol smiths were Guerrino Massoni, Giovanni Maggi, Giulio Mori. That is if the names aren't backward which sometimes also seems plausible.

And there's also a Spanish outfit named Garate y Mendiba cross referenced to GYM in the "Codes from the National Crime and Information Center (NCIC) 2000 standard".

So these are all dead end leads to the possibilities of who made
the revolver[s], or none of the above. The purpose is not to confuse but rather to just wonder about the possible origin of these older guns. :)

[1KPerDay]

Thanks for the info... perhaps I'll never know the truth. I hope they're safe to fire or I'll be wasting my time and money getting them running.

I remember shooting the dragoon with my dad at least 25 years ago... as I've said several times, my ears are still ringing. :D

[rjsixgun]

Rob Lewis of Tri-L............... 513-897-2852

[Macmac]

Well as I said as a last resort, even if you end up taking these apart I can put them back together.

I have done that before with several guns i didn't take aprt myself, that were taken apart by their owners mostly and on semi auto Winchester taken apart for blueing, but that smith blew town leaving the parts in 2 boxes with parts of other guns in the same boxes.

I just don't know the details of any, but the Patterson is likely the most difficult of all. That folding trigger probably makes it so, but it can't be all that hard to figure out.

The 3rd modle is where to start if you do. At least I think so. It is likely to be closer in design to the 1858 and the 1860.

With that digested the Walker would be my next choice, leaving that Patterson for last.

Me: I wouldn't care if all of them were taken apart and all the pieces were dumped in one box. I could still put them all back together again.

If any parts are needed I could make them all work. It is either a matter of study, which it would be for me, or knowing what you are doing, which i don't but I could.

Either way you can have these working again.

That 3rd Modle and anyone is fee to tell me where I go wrong, should have 2 screws just below the hammer, and one more in the bottom of the grip frame to release the wooden grips.

Safe to pull that.

The next screw is the lower end of the main spring, loosen it a lot, but then slip the main spring out of the hammer and look where it notches into the hammer before you pull it out all the way. Then pull it out.

With a egg carton place the pairs of screws in one holder and the singles each in their own holder.

Next move on to the trigger guard frame. 2 screws at the rear and one up front. The 2 rear screws are longer, so they go in another holder and the sole shorter screw goes in it's own. Pull off the trigger guard.

You will see the sear spring, and one screw that holds it. For kicks and grins see if it has become loose, which it may and there by thrown timing off. If it is tight, operate the hammer by hand with in it limits, and watch the bolt move up and down, and how the two legs work on the hammer cam, and work to engage the sear.

Then it is safe to pull this spring retainer screw and the spring, which both go in another holder.

There are 2 screws similar holding the sear, the other holding the trigger, but similar is rough, so remove one screw and the part and keep them together, then the other.

That would be sear first, trigger last to come apart.

The last screw is the hammer screw still on the left frame. Take it out and slip out the hammer over a white pillow case, so if you drop the cylinder hand you don't loose it.

The hammer and hand drop out from the bottom of the frame, and that's it.

The install is the reverse order.

Now I am not really suggesting you do this, but if you wanted to and got into a problem I can't talk you out of I can still put the gun back together.

learning that tech, if it were me I would move on to the Walker, then the Patterson, as the tech is all similar.

Like you I wouldn't know which parts to get, and they can and do varry between makers.

The bolt screw and trigger screws are slightly different and probably once were the very same screws, but hand work may change them. That hand work from the factory.

The rest is study even for a guy who knows what he is doing, that and fitting the parts correctly.

[pohill]

Colt made and sold the Paterson (one T), then he went bankrupt. When he was asked by Walker to make a revolver, he put an ad in the paper for a Paterson (he had none left), which he never got. My point is that he made the Walker without the aid of a Paterson to go by, so there really is no comparison between the two. The folding trigger is about the easiest part of the Paterson to put back. There are a few parts in the Paterson that can go in more than one way, and they all look correct, but there is only one right way to do it.
I'd stay away from the Paterson until you're more than comfortable with the other Colts. I think it has 17 more parts than the Walker.