[OneShot]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly makes a carbine , a carbine? I have heard the term used over and over but how does it differ from just an ordinary clip fed rifle.

Please bear with me, I'm new to rifles in general. I did just buy a new Springfield M1a today though-Rob:D :D :D

[Art Eatman]

The difference between a "carbine" and a "rifle" had more meaning back before WW I than it does now.

In the days even before I got to meddlin' with guns, it was common for rifles to have long barrels of 30" and more. These were unwieldy for carrying on horseback. Horseback soldiers generally engaged at shorter distances, so the loss in power wasn't regarded as a big problem: Et voila! The short-barrelled rifle, or "Carbine".

So, moving forward a bit in time and considering the civilian world and the changes brought about by smokeless powder, rifles of some 22" or more were indeed rifles. Rifles of 20" or less, generally, were called carbines.

Like many labels, there are a lot of gray areas, sorta non-specific. Nowadays, for instance, an M16 with a 20" barrel is considered a full-fledged rifle.

FWIW,

Art

[BryanP]

It's normally defined as a short rifle, usually but not always firing a cartridge of pistol calibre or a cartridge of intermediate power between pistol and rifle.

I'm sure someone will give you a better definition momentarily.

edit: - or possibly post a better one a few seconds before I hit the Submit button ... :)

[zahc]

How does one properly pronounce 'carbine'?

[Brian Dale]

BryanP, not to be argumentative, but I'm not too sure about the intermediate-power cartridge. Just that it's a short, handy rifle, for the reasons that Art has given.

The name, IINM, comes from the lanyard ring or snap-link that was usually found on cavalry carbines in the old days. A trooper would attach it to himself (or to the saddle?) so that he wouldn't lose his rifle entirely if he dropped it during a fight. Same word origin as a climber's snap-link, a "carabiner."

Pronunciation is CAR-bean, except for an old inventor named Carbine (pronounced CAR-byne) Williams. Interesting character. Anybody remember what the movie was called? (sorry; I don't)

EDITED to add: well, imagine that: the 1952 movie, starring Jimmy Stewart, was called "Carbine Williams." His full name was David Marshall Williams. He had been a moonshiner in N.C., then went to prison after a sheriff was killed in a raid. He invented the M1 carbine (not the Garand).
{FURTHER EDIT: OOPS! - See Keith's comment of October 3rd, 2003 11:26 AM, below
- Happy, Gullible, Movie-Watching Bob}

[Jim Watson]

I always took a carbine to be a shorter version of the standard infantry (or sporting) rifle of the day. Of course that makes the WW II US Army wrong, because an M1 Carbine has no relationship to a M1 or '03 rifle. They had it right earlier with the Trapdoor and Krag, though.

[C.R.Sam]

I think full power rifle cartridge more the norm than pistol or intermediate power.
Lots of 303, 8mm, .30 etc carbines. And some old big bores too.

Sam

[Abominable No-Man]

"Carbine" was originally used to denote a "reduced rifle" (BTW, I don't know how it is supposed to be pronouncedi I call it a CAR-bine). Like Art said earlier, the word was a lot better-defined before the advent of intermediate calibers- back in WWI and before, pretty much everything was chambered for the "full-powered" rifle rounds: .30-06, 7.92 Mauser, 7.62R, etc. As I always understood it, it typically was used to identify a standard infantry weapon that had been cut down/reduced for use by cavalry, vehicle crews, artillery, etc. The best examples I can think of go like this:

RIFLE/CARBINE
Mosin-Nagant M91 (?) rifle/Mosin-Nagant M44
M-1 "Garand" rifle/M-1 (again ?) "Tanker Garand"
No. 4 Lee Enfield/No. 5 "Jungle Carbine"
WWI-era 1898 Mauser rifle/WWII-era K98 rifle
M16/A1/A2/M4

I don't think it was until the development of the M-1 Carbine that a issue weapon was built from the ground up as a carbine. The M16 doesn't fire a full-powered rifle round, but the M4 is the reduced version of it. (This would probably make the M16 a carbine to begin with in the classic sense.)

ANM

[OneShot]

Thanks for the responses. I think that a lot of people throw the term around but few know what it means. I asked a fellow at my local gun store today what comprised a carbine after he had just finished lecturing me on M1 carbines and he really had no idea whatsoever what a carbine actually was.

Again, answers such as the ones given above attest to the knowledge on this board. Thanks again--Oneshot

[Detritus]

M-1 "Garand" rifle/M-1 (again ?) "Tanker Garand"

just a point of history vs marketing....

there never was a "Tanker Garand" issued by ther US military, there WERE a small number of experimental short garands used in the Pacific theater, but these were VERY few and far between. and laiek teh later comercial cousins tended to have problems (remember the gas system of the garand was "balanced" as it was issued, shortening the gas/op system threw this balnace out he window, takes a REAL careful adn knowlegeable smith/armorer to get it back into balance after radical surgery). the war ended before the concept could be developed into a viable system (it was meant to be something like the No5 Enfield) for use by jungle troops and paratroopers.

AFTER the war some rather savy gunsmiths picked up on the idea of a shortened garand, thought that sich a gun would sell well as a "brush gun" for deer etc. teh conversiopns were done, and to give it a distictive name someone came up with "tanker garand" (though tank crews were never issued a single example according to what records exist), i guess it was just mroe romantic than "jungle garand" or "Para-Garand"

unless i missed soemthing in my history, there were no "carbine" versions of US battle rifles from the 1903, untill the M-4 was standardized (the XM-177E? type guns it came from excluded due to being offically "experimental").

also according to the terminology of the time of it's acceptance, the 1903 would be considered a "short rifle" a step between a full sized infantry piece of the previous era and a true carbine. with the 1903 the Ordnance Dept figured that by going to an barrel length, they could have Springfeild armory make ONE design and simplify production..
Thus the 1903 was made long enough to produce acceptable accuracy and velocity for the Infantry, adn short ehough not to be COMPLETELY unweildy when carried/used by mounted troops.

[Abominable No-Man]

Well, you're right. It was just an example I thought up. Maybe not the best, but it served as an illustration. I suppose I could have used the M1A Bush Rifle as the carbine version to the M1A/M14.

I'm not sure, but I don't think that the XM177 was designated as a carbine. I believe that is a term reserved for the M4.

ANM

[timbo]

In my experience, and this is not fact, I tend to think of a carbine as a lighter and/or shorter rifle than what is commonplace at the time. For example the M4 of today is a lighter and shorter version of M16. This is not true for everything though, but that's what the intention of fielding a carbine is. Something relatively small and more mobile for those that don't need as much firepower as some other person.

Carbines can sometimes use the exact same ammunition as a full-size counterpart as well but the reverse isn't necessarily true. I don't know of a full-size rifle that uses centerfire pistol ammunition and some of these are classified as carbines. As such I wouldn't classify a carbine on what ammunition it fires.

[Black Snowman]

I've always considered a carbine to be either a shortened verson of a full size rifle action or a deticated compact weapon wish a short action and barrel that was semi-auto or manually operated. Anything fitting that description that was full-auto suddenly becomes an SMG.

That's just how it's floated around in my head in seeing the kinds of weapons that are labled carbine. I can say for sure that it doesn't have a hard and fast definition but if you want one: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=carbine

to sum up for you Websters says carbine = light automatic rifle
How's that for detail!

[Art Eatman]

"Websters says carbine = light automatic rifle"

Just shows to go ya how ignorant about guns that Mr. Webster is. :D

I've seen a ton of Winchester 94 carbines, but I never saw one that wuz ottermattick. And a thutty-thutty sho ain't no "intermediate" cartridge.

:D, Art

[Detritus]

I'm not sure, but I don't think that the XM177 was designated as a carbine.

First off i'm hooing i got the designation right, many of the "XM" rifles/weapons from the 60's run together in my head at times. i was meaning to reference the the weapon aka "CAR-15" (A1 receiver, collapsable stock, short barrel with a combo Flash hider/noise attenuator)

i said that (about the XM-177 not counting) b/c there are a few folks ou there that consider it to be the origin of the M-4 and will argue that the first re-issue of a "carbine" in teh way i was defining it, would have been in the 60's with the XM-177 types.

[Keith]

Carbine Williams has almost nothing to do with the M1 Carbine!

He invented the short-stroke piston that was later used in that rifle.

His is an interesting story, since he came up with the idea in prison and was allowed to use the work shop to build a rifle. But that rifle looked nothing like an M1 Carbine and was never produced. He did patent the piston idea and it was later used by Winchester when they produced the Carbine.

Along comes a book telling his story, and then a movie that credits him with the invention of Carbine and the rest is history... or actually, it ain't history at all! It's Hollywood!

Keith

[Brian Dale]

Oops. :uhoh: