Any tips for shooting mouse guns a bit more accurately?


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whatever
February 16, 2009, 09:26 PM
I've got a couple hundred rounds through my CC weapon (P3AT) and I really like it. I'd love to get my groups a little tighter though - especially at the 7 yard range.

Does anyone have any tips to improve with the ultra-compact type guns?

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jame
February 16, 2009, 10:58 PM
I regularly carry a Beretta 21A .22, so the answer for me is cheap:

Shoot. A whole bunch. At least weekly.

With these reduced caliber guns, accuracy becomes really, really important.

1KPerDay
February 16, 2009, 11:45 PM
Get closer. ;)

MICHAEL T
February 16, 2009, 11:50 PM
use tip of finger on trigger and finger rest on mag Those can be bought at http://condorsflight.com i perfer the bersa one my self . Then practice

WardenWolf
February 17, 2009, 12:19 AM
First you have to kill the mouse to get his gun. Then you need a TINY needle to fit in the trigger guard. . . Oh wait.

Practice, and use good ammo. Not all ultra-compacts have a tiny grip. Some are fitted with full-size hogue grips to bulk them up to the proper size for your fingers. See if yours can be fitted thusly.

cliffy
February 17, 2009, 12:43 AM
Mouse guns are generally difficult to shoot accurately. If with fixed sights, even worse. Only purchase adjustable rear-sight models and AVOID double-action ONLY pistols! If it ain't got a thumbable hammer, skip it! Single-action Autos are great for accuracy. Double-action only models are to be avoided. What more can I say, cliffy

MICHAEL T
February 17, 2009, 02:01 AM
If it ain't got a thumbable hammer, skip it! Single-action Autos
guess you carry a 1911 hammer down to. many people will shoot as good or better with a DA auto Its called training.

bannockburn
February 17, 2009, 09:14 AM
whatever

I remember years ago reading an article about trying to get a decent sight picture with the tiny, almost non-existant sights that are found on most mouse guns. What the author found that worked the best, was to take a bright colored enamel paint, like yellow or orange, and paint a narrow strip on the back of the slide and on the rear of the front sight. Now this isn't going to give you pinpoint accuracy, but it might help in aquiring a decent sight picture, and in finding and focusing on the front sight. You might want to try this to see if it works.

usp9
February 17, 2009, 10:01 AM
Does anyone have any tips to improve with the ultra-compact type guns?

IMHO, A "good enough" group is what you're after when you shoot a tiny pocket pistol. These pistols are not meant for precise, aimed shooting. Their intended use is strickly defense... draw, point and pull the trigger. You should be able to hit vital, center of mass areas. Speed and surprise are your main focus, not pin point accuracy.

Shooting slow and easy you should group, at 7 yards within say a 3 or 4" area. Fast, pointed shoots you want to be within that or just barely outside, say a 6" or so. That would be deadly to most folks.

7 yards is about the outside distance to practice. That and anything closer is the realistic threat area. Shooting slow and easy my Seecamp will deliver a 2" group, and that's about as good as it will ever deliver, and that is "good enough" I'm not sure I have any tip to offer. The triggers are heavy, the guns tiny, the barrels too short, the recoil noticable. Practice with a firm grip and quick, consistent trigger pull, shoot enough to develope some muscle memory. Good luck.

KBintheSLC
February 17, 2009, 03:06 PM
I have found that trigger control is key when shooting my P32. It is so light and small that any mashing or jerking I do when pressing the trigger is amplified. I would get some snap caps and do a ton of dry practice... get to where your sights do not move when you press the trigger.

burningsquirrels
February 17, 2009, 05:10 PM
i use my one handed shooting techniques from sport shooting.

in a nutshell... i get into a fighting stance with my strong hand forward, similar to a low boxing or martial arts stance. my gun is canted about 20* and i rotate my shoulders into the weapon, putting more of my forearm and upper arm muscles behind the recoil. this helps me point shoot, manage recoil, and place follow-up shots quickly. getting the shots inside an target? i can bill drill some alphas, with a charlie or two on cm99-63 merle's standards strong hand at 60 feet in a reasonable amount of time.

the rest is practice.

with my 380, the thing is so small, it's almost pointless for me to practice two handed. that, and in a defensive situation, chances are my left hand will be busy holding valuables or pulling my fiance out of the way. i still practice with my left as well.

schmeky
February 17, 2009, 05:19 PM
First you have to kill the mouse to get his gun. Then you need a TINY needle to fit in the trigger guard. . .

Hardy, har, har, :D

Ben86
February 17, 2009, 05:22 PM
Same basic techniques apply. Except with the additional problem of what to do with your pinky. I prefer to curl it fully under the butt of the gun against my hand in full contraction. The pinky on the side of the gun way is just plain uncomfortable.

burningsquirrels
February 17, 2009, 05:25 PM
i forgot one thing: excercise for your hands. i have a couple stress balls and that squeezy thingy. when you got a mousey-mouse gun that uses just your middle or middle and ring, it helps to have a very strong grip.

mike724
February 17, 2009, 05:47 PM
Mouse gun??!! Here Kitty kitty! Get close to THIS mouse!

Lightninstrike
February 17, 2009, 06:24 PM
Hmmm...

Maybe a laser if a) you can afford it and b) you can find one for your firearm. I have a Crimson Trace kit for my LCP. :evil:

stalkingbear
February 17, 2009, 06:28 PM
Practice while using trigger control AND install a laser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Raoul
February 17, 2009, 08:13 PM
For me it was a Hogue grip and mag extension. Made my Kahr PM40 surprisingly accurate at distances up to about 30 yards.

grimjaw
February 17, 2009, 08:14 PM
I stopped aiming down the sights and started point shooting with the Beretta Bobcat at 7 yards. My results didn't get worse, and the sights on that gun are virtually useless in low light anyway.

jm

burningsquirrels
February 17, 2009, 08:25 PM
http://www.armco-guns.com/C-More%20with%20mount%20%202.JPG

i couldn't resist. :D

Lonestar.45
February 17, 2009, 10:45 PM
I have a 3AT also. The best bet is to just practice. Which is hard with that gun, because for me it is no fun to shoot. But, the more you shoot it the better you'll get. Also, play around with ammo selection. Mine was finicky and some ammo it just did NOT like. I settled in on Speer Gold Dot 90gr and it runs like a champ and shoots great with that load.

One tip, I put a Hogue Handall Jr. grip on it. Turn the grip upside down, slide it on, trim it with an exacto knife, and superglue it onto the grip once you get it where you want it. That made a TON of difference. That, and I put some Bersa mag finger grip extensions on the mag. I just use those for the range though to make it easier to shoot. For carry I go with the flush mag for better concealability. Good luck.

Edited to add: Here is a link to exactly what I did with the grip. If anyone has a 3AT, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you do this, it makes a WORLD of difference when shooting at the range and really doesn't make the gun any bigger.
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/handalljr.htm

HisSoldier
February 17, 2009, 11:49 PM
Maybe a laser if a) you can afford it and b) you can find one for your firearm. I have a Crimson Trace kit for my LCP.

I put a laser on my P3AT and found it to be a waste of money, reason? DAO doesn't allow the laser dot to ever settle down. I agree with the poster who said get a DA or SA gun, now my little Astra .22 short is very accurate! Doesn't need a laser but, unlike the Kel-Tec, could actually profit from one if there were one available. The Kel-Tec did however profit from the drilling of three dot sights.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc225/partsproduction/KT003.jpg

In the end though I have found the Astra Cub with factory sights is more accurate at 15 yards than the P3AT is at 7 yards under any circumstances.

burningsquirrels
February 17, 2009, 11:51 PM
let's face it... someone pops out at you, you yank the thing out of the holster and go bang... it's mostly point shooting anyways. any further, the liberals will probably just take you apart by saying you didn't need to shoot lol.

verdun59
February 18, 2009, 05:48 PM
I agree trying to line up sights on a mouse gun under stress is sort of a waste of time. At the range I just try to get a visual on the front site and then fire, basically point shooting. I think in a defensive situation that's what it amounts too.......and you're right about that liberal thing

rhoggman
February 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
I would suggest the slip on rubber grips and finger extensions for the mags like others have, and also pay attention to trigger pull. If you are all over the place with a little pistol it is almost assuredly trigger pull. Try pulling really slow until you get used to the trigger, and use the tip of your finger.

The only thing unique I have to add is about the sight picture. I think the almost non-existent sights on the P3AT & LCP can really deceive the shooter. Even if you have good eyes it can really be hard to judge your site picture with any certainty.

What I do to compensate for this is use the sights mainly for windage purposes (make sure the front site is centered side to side). For elevation I make sure that I am looking directly down the slide, and then I line up the bullseye so that it is covered up half way by the front of the slide.

Not to brag but I have really great success with this method using my LCP. Once I got the trigger pull and sight picture figured out at 15yards I can get really good groups. As long as I don't pull a shot I can keep all my rounds in a 3" area. If you pull rounds with something this small they are going to be 5-12" out of the normal group. At least this is how it works for me. What this tells me is that there is little room for error, but if you learn to shoot the weapon it is still very accurate. The limitations are more "ours" to own.

Yo Mama
February 18, 2009, 08:32 PM
i use my one handed shooting techniques from sport shooting.


Exactly! When I use both hands and really try to aim, I suck. When i go one handed, and in a fighting stance groups are better for some reason.

The p3at has quite a kick to the bugger.

Firstshot
February 18, 2009, 09:06 PM
I have a P3AT also. I've found that the mag extension, bright paint on the front site, and more pointing - less aiming works for me. It's hard not to anticipate the rather painful kick of the thing but practice helps.

okespe04
February 18, 2009, 09:58 PM
With the lcp I shoot one handed and shoot acceptable (6" or so) groups at 12 yards. Like Firstshot said more pointing than aiming. Seems like when I really try to aim it messes up my shots.

PRM
February 18, 2009, 10:23 PM
OK - not trying to start a flame war, but the term "mouse gun" is a bit unclear to me. Some hold that size is the determining factor where as others use calibre. I am not even going there...

I have two, .32 calibre guns. One is a North American Arms Guardian, and the other is a Walther PP. I really like the Walther (8+1) nine shot capability. It is as accurate as any of my larger frame/larger calibre guns, and is a lot easier to conceal and carry (my opinion). I like it!!! Out to 25 yards it does what it is supposed to - 10 yards or less is pure fun. The gun is a lot more accurate than I am capable of shooting, and I and I am a fairly good shot.

The North American Arms is a close range proposition - sights are not the best, but since a lot of people have them taken off, I don't think they were intended it to be a tack driver. 5-7 yards, 3-4 inch groups are respectable, for a defensive situation.

Why would I want the smaller less accurate gun - peace of mind, when discreet carry is the order of the day. Bottom line, some guns were never intended for competition shooting.

Duke of Doubt
February 18, 2009, 10:32 PM
I sold off my mouse guns, except for my Ortgies 7,65 m/m. What a beautiful little gun it is. But the sights are indeed TINY. They work, and it shoots accurately, but mouse guns are for pocket carry and for up close and personal situations in the men's room, not for blasting badguys molesting the cheerleaders all the way down the football field. Practice point and shoot, not benchrest shooting with the little thing. Even though that can be gratifying.

johnnylaw53
February 19, 2009, 06:59 AM
fine bigger mice to shoot at

benderx4
February 19, 2009, 09:29 AM
Like anything else: practice, practice, practice!

Double Naught Spy
February 19, 2009, 09:44 AM
So the problems hampering putting shots on target in a nice neat grouping with mouse guns would be...

Small or no sights (hard to align quickly because they are hard to see)

Oversized or too generalized sights (too big for precise alignment, or in the case of gutter sights, too generalized - see fixed sights)

Fixed sights (POA does not necessarily equal POI and so the sights are to just give you a basic idea of the area in which the round will impact, not the spot)

Short sight radius (alignment must be more precise than on longer sight radius guns. The shorter the sight radius, the more errors in alignment are increased at the point of impact. A 1/64" sight alignment error on a 2.5" sight radius gun produces twice the error of a 1/64" error in a 5" sight radius gun)

Nasty trigger pull (many mouse guns are DOA with no safeties and hence have very long and heavy trigger pulls. Some single actions like NAA mini revolvers have stiff and mushy trigger pulls)

Hand-grip incompatibility (grip too short and/or too small of a circumference. As such, getting a proper and consistent grip is difficult. Being able to hold the gun securely such that it doesn't hop around in the hand with recoil is difficult or impossible. In otherwords, fast and accurate followup shots can be difficult)

Unpleasant recoil (as noted, several models are not overly friendly to the shooter when it comes to recoil and so shooters develop a flinch or opt to not practice with the guns because practice rapidly becomes unpleasant)

Crude Accuracy (given the intended use, mouse gun tolerances usually are not such that even if shot properly that you can expect to get very good accuracy. You aren't likely to get 4" group at 25 yards [the orignal 1911 standard for combat accuracy as I recall]

I have probably missed a couple of other things as well. However, most of the problems with mouse guns are ergonomic issues where the design parameters appear to be more focussed on concealability and not shootability.

Bobo
February 19, 2009, 03:13 PM
Get one of these
http://www.armalaser.com/Kel_Tec_P32_P3AT-KEL_TEC_P32_P3AT.html

or one of these
http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Products/KelTec/LG430/tabid/299/Default.aspx

You'll be able see exactly what you are doing wrong!

Bobo

Tirod
February 20, 2009, 11:18 AM
I think we've all missed something important to group shooters - use lower recoil ammo.

Blasting away with extended amounts of defensive carry hollowpoints is ok to get used to it - even necessary. But if you want tighter groups, do what range shooters do: use ammo loaded for less recoil. Less recoil = equals more accuracy. Your sights drift less and reacquiring a target is easier.

The perceived impact and noise levels go down, there is less flinch, less opportunity to wear out grip, and the whole shooting experience becomes more positive. You shoot better, and get better. Win-win.

Cowboy action shooting does it, as does international target. Shoot ammo that's configured for the use - we do it for CCW, do it for the range.

Lonestar.45
February 20, 2009, 12:13 PM
I think we've all missed something important to group shooters - use lower recoil ammo

In theory this is a great idea and one I adhere to when shooting higher power guns. If it works in your smaller mouse guns, then definitely go for it.

However, my KelTec is VERY finicky with ammo. It will only shoot Speer Gold Dot reliably. The cheaper lower powered ammo will NOT feed reliably. So, basically I shoot the Gold Dot and that's it. But this is not a range gun by any means, so I don't put 200 rounds through it at a setting anyway.

Tirod
February 20, 2009, 02:53 PM
But this is not a range gun by any means, so I don't put 200 rounds through it at a setting anyway.

Which is the real point - a belly gun just needs to hit a pie plate under stress at 6 ft.

XD9WBT
February 20, 2009, 04:15 PM
First, tie it down,(shoot from a stationary base) and make sure it will shoot the pattern you want. You might have to shoot some differnet ammo to find the one that gives the best performance. Walmart bucket of bullets is not gonna work as well as the high dollar defense loads.

Second, hire an nra certified instructor to watch for any flaws you have.

That should get you on track and bunching them up.

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