interstate transfer in person


PDA






Dr. Fresh
February 17, 2009, 06:18 AM
I'm going to be graduating college soon, and I'm most likely going to inherit my father's 686 as a graduation gift. I go to school in Washington State and he lives in Texas. Does he have to mail the gun to a dealer here or can both of us just go to the dealer and do a transfer in person?

If you enjoyed reading about "interstate transfer in person" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
schlumper
February 17, 2009, 07:37 AM
Do you claim residence in Washington or back home?

Dr. Fresh
February 17, 2009, 08:23 AM
Washington. Sorry, I forgot to mention that. I've lived here since 1997, well before college.

NavyLCDR
February 17, 2009, 11:00 AM
Dr. Fresh,

It's not an inheritance because your father is still living. It is a gift (according to terms for firearms transactions). If it is a long gun, you should be able to do the transfer in person at either a Texas or a Washington FFL. That's the exception for out of state FFL transfers of long guns in 18 USC 922(b)(3).

If it is a handgun, the transfer must occur at a Washington FFL. That would be according to 18 USC 922(a)(3) and (a)(5). The handgun may be shipped to the Washington FFL by your father or by a Texas FFL or delivered in person to the Washington FFL. Your father must use FEDEX or UPS, but a Texas FFL could mail it via USPS.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 17, 2009, 11:24 AM
Wow, ask and you shall receive. Nice job, NavyLT!

atomemphis
February 17, 2009, 11:50 AM
* Note: It matters where your Driver's License is from - That's the state where you can transfer possession of a handgun.

If you have a Texas DL, and are living in Washington, the Washington FFL is not going to transfer it to you - They'll say you are a resident of another state.

NavyLCDR
February 17, 2009, 01:23 PM
* Note: It matters where your Driver's License is from - That's the state where you can transfer possession of a handgun.

Yes and no. Residency defined in the CFR's for firearms transactions purposes is defined as presence within a state with the intention of making a home in that state. So two things are required for residency for firearms transactions - presence and intention.

Let's look at the example of a military spouse living in the state the military member is ordered to. I am stationed in Washington, both my wife and I maintain Wyoming driver's licenses. My wife, according to CFRs for firearms transactions, is a resident of Washington. She has physical presence in Washington and she intends to make Washington a home for the duration of my orders. She is not required, as a military spouse, to obtain a Washington state driver's license.

So, she cannot purchase a handgun from a dealer in Washington state, because she is not required, and also chooses not to obtain a Washington state DL or ID card. The prohibition of the purchase is only because lack of state issued ID - not residency. She can purchase any firearm in a private party transaction from a Washington resident, and can purchase long guns from Washington FFLs.

She cannot purchase a handgun from a dealer or private party, and cannot purchase a long gun from a private party in Wyoming, even though she has a Wyoming driver's license, because she does not meet the CFR requirements for residency in Wyoming - she has no intention of making Wyoming a home. I am under the same prohibition in Wyoming for the same reason. However, I can purchase any firearm I choose to, from anyone, in Washington because I can meet both the residency requirement and the ID requirement with my active duty ID card and orders to Washington.

It's basically exactly the same situation for a student attending school in a state other than their driver's license shows. The statement is correct, that a Washington FFL would not transfer the handgun to someone without a WA state ID.

leadcounsel
February 17, 2009, 01:56 PM
Isn't it nice that our "common sense" gun laws have deteriorated to a patch work of nonsense laws that have little to no impact on crime....

tulsamal
February 17, 2009, 04:14 PM
Obviously Texas doesn't have any form of handgun registry or "Gunowner Registration Card." Does Washington? I'm just saying.... it's your Dad and the gun is staying in the family. If I was out my Dad's house and he gave me a handgun as a gift, my reaction would be to go put it in my car for the drive home rather than worrying about FFL's or various state and Federal laws.

It would be an entirely different story (in my eyes) if the transfer was between non-family members. Or if I had to register the handgun for some reason in Washington and had to account for where it came from. I know, the letter of the law isn't the same as the intent of the law. But the intent of these laws was clearly to keep people from selling handguns across state lines as a way to avoid more restrictive handgun laws in the buyer's state. Not to somehow keep a Dad from being able to give a handgun to his son without also giving some money to an FFL for his "blessing" on the whole thing!

Gregg

NavyLCDR
February 17, 2009, 04:22 PM
Washington State has no registration either.

larry_minn
February 17, 2009, 07:02 PM
What is funny. (ok not really) My "understanding" is that IF your father said. "This is your 686 back in 1996" (when you were still TX resident) "I am going to keep it till you graduate then you can take it with you wherever you go" IF that were the case you could take the gun home with you (because it was YOUR gun just stored at parents place) No shipping/FFL fees/etc.

Dr. Fresh
February 17, 2009, 08:23 PM
Thanks all. Sorry for misusing the word "inherit." It is a gift. There's no registration or anything like that to worry about. FTF deals are legal in both states.

Nothing of course is stopping him from just handing it to me in person, but it'd be nice to keep it legal.

So NavyLT, he can deliver it in person to the WA FFL?

TexasRedneck
February 17, 2009, 08:41 PM
Do as you wish - but for me, I'd hand it to my son, tell him he forgot it last time he was home, and just move on. There's no money changing hands, and no intent to do anything wrong, other than to give property to a family member.

NavyLCDR
February 18, 2009, 12:13 AM
So NavyLT, he can deliver it in person to the WA FFL?

Yes. The Federal law does not specify how the handgun gets to the FFL, only that it is transferred by an FFL.

Art Eatman
February 18, 2009, 12:24 AM
ATF regs are stickied at the main page of this forum.

Still.

Dr. Fresh
February 18, 2009, 03:17 AM
Awesome. Thanks again guys.

Mousegun
February 18, 2009, 10:40 AM
It funny, I just asked this same question (with minor differences) to the Tennessee Firearms Association web site and got a considerably different response from the lawyer / moderator who specializes in gun law.

I don't see any exception for rifles but I may have missed it.

My friend is receiving a gifted rifle from another state and wants to go there to pick it up and make the transfer in that other state. According to this, he is not able to do that nor is he able to take it back to Tennessee and make the transfer here. The rifle has to be shipped to a licensed person or dealer here for the transfer to be made.

Here is the post and response:

But what about a rifle, given as a gift, from another state to be brought back to Tennessee by the person receiving the gift.

I am quite sure that it has to go through an FFL also but the question is can that FFL be from the state the rifle is coming from?

For instance, can the person who is receiving the gift go to the other state and then go to an FFL dealer with the people who are giving him the gift and make the person to person transfer and then take it back to Tennessee?

Thanks for any help.

No. The firearm, if it crosses state lines as part of a transfer such as a gift, must go through a licensed dealer in the state of residence of the recipient. Its stupid but that's it.

Here are parts of the ATF's reference guide that address this:

27 CFR § 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of
firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell,
trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm
to any other nonlicensee, who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause
to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business
in) the State in which the transferor
resides: Provided, That the provisions of
this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer,
transportation, or delivery of a firearm
made to carry out a bequest of a firearm
to, or any acquisition by intestate succession
of a firearm by, a person who is permitted
to acquire or possess a firearm
under the laws of the State of his residence;
and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental
of a firearm to any person for temporary
use for lawful sporting purposes.


Sections from ATF Publication 5300.4


(B3) May an unlicensed person
obtain a firearm from an out-of-
State source if the person arranges
to obtain the firearm through a
licensed dealer in the purchaser’s
own State?

A person not licensed under the
GCA and not prohibited from acquiring
firearms may purchase a firearm
from an out-of-State source and obtain
the firearm if an arrangement is
made with a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's State of residence for the
purchaser to obtain the firearm from
the dealer.18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]



(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm
through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a
firearm to a nonlicensed resident of
another State. A nonlicensee may
mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of
his or her own State or to a licensee
in any State. The Postal Service recommends
that long guns be sent by
registered mail and that no marking of
any kind which would indicate the
nature of the contents be placed on
the outside of any parcel containing
firearms. Handguns are not mailable.
A common or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and
922 (a)(2)(A)]John Harris

Executive Director
Tennessee Firearms Association, Inc.
Attorney

larry_minn
February 18, 2009, 11:35 AM
It funny, I just asked this same question (with minor differences) to the Tennessee Firearms Association web site and got a considerably different response from the lawyer / moderator who specializes in gun law.

I don't see any exception for rifles but I may have missed it.

My friend is receiving a gifted rifle from another state and wants to go there to pick it up and make the transfer in that other state. According to this, he is not able to do that nor is he able to take it back to Tennessee and make the transfer here. The rifle has to be shipped to a licensed person or dealer here for the transfer to be made.

Here is the post and response:


THAT (underlined part if it worked) is what I "think" is the important change. My"understanding" is the OP's FATHER (owner of gun) is going to BE in Washington State. HE "my understanding" is can bring gun into a ffl there for transfer. If you look over law (ok I skimmed) it appears the son couldn't bring it there.
Kinda like one of my first guns. I "bought" it in North Dakota (figured I put ND folks claim it must be AD and I should keep my finger off trigger) :)
Anyway I was 2 miles from border. The store had a MN branch 5 miles (max) away. So I buy gun. They HIRE a Taxi to drive my gun to MN store. So its legal to hand gun to sit in random taxi but not to give it to buyer who went thru background check? Like many laws they are stupid. I had to bring it back and MN store (rightly said) "take it back to ND store"

NavyLCDR
February 18, 2009, 12:00 PM
Mousegun,

Notice that 27 CFR § 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of
firearms by nonlicensees applies to transactions between two non-licensees, IE Private Parties. 27 CFR 478.30 does not apply to any transaction involving an FFL.

ATF FAQ B3 is not stating anything about what is prohibited. It is only explaining one method of accomplishing an out of state purchase. Oddly enough the FAQ references 18 USC 922(b)(3), but does not include the out of state transfer of long guns by FFLs exception that is part of 18 USC 922(b)(3).

ATF FAQ B7 again has nothing to do with FFL transfers. FAQ B7 regards the use of the US Postal Service to mail firearms by non-licensees and nothing else.

Dr. Fresh
February 19, 2009, 04:10 AM
Larry_minn, you are correct. My father will be in my state for graduation ceremonies. My main question was whether or not we could go to a dealer here and do the transfer in person, or would he have to mail the revolver to the dealer.

Seems like we can do it in person.

sig220mw
February 19, 2009, 04:30 AM
Texas has no gun registration and if Washington doesn't either what is the big deal. It's perfectly legal for individuals to sell or give guns to each other without any paper work. Am I missing something? You seem to be trying to make this into something complicated. Take the gun and tell him thanks.

NavyLCDR
February 19, 2009, 06:54 AM
Texas has no gun registration and if Washington doesn't either what is the big deal. It's perfectly legal for individuals to sell or give guns to each other without any paper work. Am I missing something? You seem to be trying to make this into something complicated. Take the gun and tell him thanks.

Yes, you are missing something in that a Texas resident giving or selling a firearm to a Washington resident is the commission of two felonies. While the chances of getting caught are next to none, some people would rather not commit felonies if they can help it. The buyer/recipient commits a felony against 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and the seller/giftor commits a felony against 18 USC 922 (a)(5).

Dr. Fresh,
Be advised, you will probably have to observe the 5 day waiting period in Washington for a handgun if you choose to use a Washington FFL and do not have a Washington CPL. The FFL will hold the gun for you during the waiting period.

Mousegun
February 19, 2009, 09:20 AM
I did some further research on the topic and found that Navy LT was spot on correct in his explanation of the laws of transfer.

It appears that the lawyer, who is well respected, may have misunderstood my first scenario and further correspondence with him cleared up the matter.

You can go the the state that the rifle will be gifted from and have a licensed FFL make the transfer (background check) there as long as the rifle is legal in both the state it is gifted in and the state that it is going to.

Dr. Fresh
February 19, 2009, 08:02 PM
I have a CPL, so no issues there. Thank God. I hate waiting periods.

sig220mw
February 19, 2009, 08:12 PM
Okay NavyLT. But does that mean there is a state registration scheme in Washington state because there isn't one in Texas?

NavyLCDR
February 19, 2009, 10:46 PM
No. There is no registration in Washington. State registration or lack thereof does not change the legality of the transaction, only the chances of getting caught.

NavyLCDR
February 19, 2009, 10:58 PM
Let me break it down for you:
If the Texas father gives the Washington son any firearm without going through an FFL the following Federal laws are broken:

The son commits a felony:
18 USC 922(a)(3):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

The father commits a felony:
18 USC 922 (a)(5):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

Even if the father "loans" the gun to the son, the son still commits the felony because the loaning exception only applies to (a)(5) and not to (a)(3).

The (b)(3) exception is for long arms obtained from out of state FFL's in person with the FFL.

TexasRedneck
February 19, 2009, 11:05 PM
Y'know, ah unnerstand all the legalities involved to better employ attornies - but why in the HE** should it be illegal for a father to pass on gun(s) to a son without doing a bunch of paperwork that has NO real effect?

Sorry - there are times when the law is an ass - and this is one of those times, IMO.

Dr. Fresh
February 20, 2009, 01:47 AM
It is ridiculous, isn't it?

If you enjoyed reading about "interstate transfer in person" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!