Tubb Final Finish Throat Maintenance System - What is it, does it work?


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Bill_Rights
February 17, 2009, 03:45 PM
This throat and bore polishing system seems to consist of a special cartridge (pack of 20) that you fire in your gun and the bullet itself somehow polishes your bore. Or am I over-simplfying?

Below is one link to it, and I'll try to cut-and-paste as much other info about the system as I can after that.

The questions are, have any of you tried it? Did it work? How do you know it worked? Does it wear out your barrel sooner? (Probably other questions will occur to you....).

BTW, we just recently went through some of these issues on a major thread "Stubborn Copper Fouling" at http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5329998&postcount=1

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=939874

Here's the copy from the Midway page:
"I have experienced much longer accurate life from a barrel using TMS, and much easier cleaning. It's a hard concept to accept for some people, but it's true: the more frequently this product is used the relatively longer the barrel will last." - David Tubb (11 time NRA National High Power Rifle Championship)

As most competition shooters know, barrel erosion is the number one cause for accuracy loss. These bullets are coated with a unique polishing compound that increases barrel life and accuracy at the same time.
Notes:

For instructions on how to use the components of the Tubb Final Finish System, please see Final Finish System Instructions

And here's the instructions (at least part of them; the flowchart is a graphic within a PDF and I didn't know how to post it - see the attachment for the full .PDF.)

Tutorial

Among the factors that affect accuracy and fouling in a barrel, these are very influential:

1. Reamer marks in the the throat area that result from chambering the barrel
2. Dimensional uniformity
3. Tool marks / surface finish

A typical factory barrel will be improved in all three areas, and even hand-lapped barrels need the chamber reamer marks in the throat corrected to perform to their potential.

FinalFinish and FinalFinish TMS will correct/improve all three of the above factors. These products will remove the most damaging (to the bullet) tool marks, generating a surface finish that goes WITH the bullet instead of against it, and work out “tight spots” that disrupt the bullet. It is okay to use FinalFinish in chrome-lined AR15 barrels.

See flowchart on back for process recommendations.

Do not make this simple process more complicated. It is very simple and forgiving and also invariably yields good results. Want to skip 5 shots of the #1 compound? Fine, it will still work and improve your barrel.

Cleaning
Again, do not over-complicate. Get the copper fouling (if any) out. We like Sweet’s 7.62 Solvent with a one caliber oversized brass brush to remove copper (keep the brush wet), or you can use Butch’s Bore Shine or Shooter’s Choice MC7 and let it sit a while.

Loads
We suggest a safe moderate pressure load. For most modern rifle calibers (.30-06, .223, etc.) something around 2200 feet per second is just fine. Typically, the suggested STARTING load in a reloading manual is recommended. Propellant selection is not critical. Please see www.davidtubb.com for loading data if you’re not sure of what to use.

DTAC, LLP / 800 North Second Street / Canadian TX 79014 / 1-806-323-9488 / www.DavidTubb.com

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Win52D
February 17, 2009, 03:51 PM
I have used it on my new Savage LRPV. I can't swear that it worked but then again I have seen some one hole groups smaller than .3" c-t-c. I'm still working out load data and battling wind. It does seem to foul a bit less and be a little easier to clean.

I did one treatment less than 500 rounds ago. Sometime before the summer I will do a second treatment.

As to whether it is worth it....that will take about 4-5000 rounds to determine. I don't shoot full powered loads...only as much velocity and powder as I need to reach maximum accuracy so barrel life should be a bit longer than normal.

As to what it is...the system consists of bullets coated with abrasive. The grit you use depends on the condition of your throat and barrel. You are basically fire lapping the throat.

pbrktrt
February 17, 2009, 10:53 PM
i ran a box of the loaded ammo through my Vanguard 270 Win when i first got it. it did tighten up groups about 1/2 inch but the biggest change was ease of cleaning & copper fouling was almost eliminated. i'd have to give it a thumbs up.

Gewehr98
February 17, 2009, 10:57 PM
You can do it quick, with that kit of abrasive bullets, or you can do it slowly over the course of hundreds or thousands of rounds.

I prefer the slow method, since barrel throats aren't a permanent thing, anyway. ;)

matrem
February 17, 2009, 11:11 PM
I prefer the slow method, since barrel throats aren't a permanent thing, anyway.
Exactly..Why do in 20 what you can get a hundred or more rounds of enjoyment from?

Bill_Rights
February 18, 2009, 01:33 AM
Gewehr,

You say barrel throats aren't a permanent thing, anyway.
I thought the throat was "of a piece" with the entire barrel. How do you change the throat out?

Gewehr98
February 18, 2009, 02:23 AM
They are an integral part of the barrel.

However, throat erosion begins with the very first round fired in a rifle barrel.

Depending on the pressure, velocity, and overbore ratio of a given rifle round, you can see serious throat erosion in as few as a few hundred rounds fired, to absolutely nothing happening over the lifetime of either the shooter or the rifle.

A .30-.378 Weatherby can tear its throat out in as few as a couple hundred rounds. A .22LR will go a century and a couple owners with no noticeable change. There's a whole bunch of chamberings in between, to include those noted as barrel-burners, including the .220 Swift and .264 Win Mag, among others.

Hence my saying a barrel throat is by no means a permanent thing.

Running abrasive-coated bullets through a new barrel seems counterproductive at best to me. You're accelerating wear and removing useful throat life. Minor surface imperfections will usually get lapped out by the normal process of shooting regular ammo, maybe a box or two. That's firelapping in the mild sense of the word.

If the bore's that rough straight from the barrel manufacturer, then there should be a phone call made. Somebody was asleep at the gun drill and/or lathe and didn't look at the finish chamber reamer. :(

That's not saying there's no use for the abrasive bullet firelapping technique, because I've seen some mistreated milsurps get a polishing that lessened copper fouling in their pitted and corroded bores. But I'd recommend a shoot-in for a new barrel long before I'd recommend the abrasive bullet route.

moooose102
February 18, 2009, 07:35 AM
what are you trying to accomplish? i used the 50 bullet (only) kit in my 45/70. i did so because the barrel surface (rifling) was very rough and copper fouled like crazy. for me, with my intended purpose, it worked great (i could visually see the difference in the barrrel surface). it polished out the vast majority of the machine marks, and the barrel now copper fouls much less. id did improve the accuracy of the rifle a bit, but it was not like it made it into a competition 1000 yard contender. as for the throat, i really couldn't tell you. i would have to use a bore scope to be able to tell that, or at a minimum, remove the barrel.

Bill_Rights
February 18, 2009, 05:08 PM
I have a brand new rifle (.308 Win) and was trying to determine whether to try "firepolishing" (I now know) with abrasive bullets on it.

Gewehr,

Excellent posting! From your detailed explanation alone, I decided NOT to firepolish/firelap this new barrel.

Moooose,

I am breaking in a new FN FNAR 7.62x51mm/.308Win rifle. It has a factory chrome-plated bore and is supposed to shoot < 1 MoA precision. From what you and "G" say, I better shoot a few boxes through it and look at the degree of copper fouling. If the fouling is just minimal, then assume the barrel is pretty smooth and skip the abrasive bullet routine. If the fouling is really bad, especially on this type of rifle, call the factory. Thanks.

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