Brass Knuckles Illegal?


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snipe300
February 18, 2009, 01:10 AM
I know that many companies will market brass knuckles as "novelty paperweights" but if used for their intended purpose (with justifiable cause, of course) are they considered in the same way as something like a collapsible baton would be? i.e. a concealable weapon.

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Dr. Snubnose
February 18, 2009, 01:17 AM
It's intended purpose is to hold down papers...use it like that...you shouldn't have a problem....:banghead:Doc:D

snipe300
February 18, 2009, 02:48 AM
:rolleyes:

PTK
February 18, 2009, 06:27 AM
I have a pair of brass knuckles that were made for me, they needed various measurements to make sure they'd be comfortable and not break my hand/fingers when in use. Solid brass, cast and then machined to spec.

Fun things, but overall, a toy. Worth the ~$35 I paid, though.

are they considered in the same way as something like a collapsible baton would be? i.e. a concealable weapon.

Yes. They're a weapon, in most states (even here in Colorado, they're a weapon and are sort of "gray area" legally)

Clermont
February 18, 2009, 07:24 AM
In New York State, possession of brass or metal knuckles is illegal. I believe the law was recently changed to include knuckles made with synthetic materials. Even if used as a paperweight, they're still knuckles as defined in the penal law.

JShirley
February 18, 2009, 09:44 AM
Depends on the state. In many, if not most, states mere possession will automatically make you "the bad guy", should you use them in self-defense.

John

XD9WBT
February 18, 2009, 09:56 AM
I had a friend that had a pair and all went well until he got into a fight and figured out he was not good enough as a boxer to punch the guy with them.
He as they say got knockedthe****out.

qwert65
February 18, 2009, 11:46 AM
I'm almost positive that in NJ possession is ok, but purchase, carrying outside of home, or using is illegal.

Ron James
February 18, 2009, 12:06 PM
There may be states where they are legal to carry, Off hand I can't think of a single one. As stated, if you are caught carrying a set, off to jail, no questions.

Funderb
February 18, 2009, 12:22 PM
they make a neat looking belt buckle.

The Lone Haranguer
February 18, 2009, 12:23 PM
Even if legal, their use would be questionable, as you would almost certainly be seen as an aggressor looking for trouble.

KevinAbbeyTech
February 18, 2009, 12:52 PM
Here in Oklahoma, you can buy them at most "toy stores" such as army surplus and such.

If possession is illegal, they don't enforce that law, though they will probably start enforcing some of the more arbitrary laws as times get tougher.

I wouldn't want to risk using them in a fight, because your possession makes you look suspiciously prepared.

I would use a more accurate and powerful weapon anyway.

Look into a kubaton.

leadcounsel
February 18, 2009, 01:07 PM
They are a mere novelty item, and a dangerous one at that.

1) They are illegal in every state I've ever lived in or visited to my knowledge. In most states, as others said, mere possession is illegal. I suppose you'd be fine if you simply owned them and used them as a paperweight... but that's a risk

2) I don't know of a single state where they are legal to carry. Even if you validly defended yourself with them, you would almost certainly be charged with possessing and carrying a deadly weapon unlawfully. And I suppose you could be sued in civil court if you really hurt someone, even if you were defending yourself, because you used an illegal weapon.

3) Even you could carry them, why would you? They automatically elevate the fight to "deadly weapon" and that means that assuming you weren't the aggressor, the other person may be able to use a deadly weapon in self defense. The tables turn and now you are the aggressor with a deadly weapon (and a poor choice at that)!

snipe300
February 18, 2009, 01:24 PM
Thanks yall. As far as being prepared go, I have a carry permit, and quite frankly, the few knuckles I've held have hurt my hands.

icebones
February 18, 2009, 02:27 PM
Im pretty shure every set of brass knuckles Ive ever seen were sold as "paper weights"

try a roll of nickles. but im almost certain that would be just as illegal too.

Jenrick
February 18, 2009, 03:24 PM
Knuckles are in Texas at least a prohibited weapon, just like say a zip gun, acid sprayer or home made flame thrower. Carrying them in public is a crime, having them as a "paperweight" however with box, papers held down etc. gets around that.

They are not regulated on the federal level, only at the state level. So check you're state laws, there might be a way, or it may not even be legal to keep at the house.

-Jenrick

Macmac
February 18, 2009, 06:40 PM
I don't know.. So far as I know any weapon is just any weapon. Only a fool would use something other than a gun in SD... I always carry a gun, so I always have atleast 1 gun.

I am too old and grumpy to get into fights where i don't need a gun. The gun always ends the fight right now.

So if say you and I don't really mean you pulled out kucks and or a big knife I'ld just shoot you, and you would be 'stopped'.

i see knucks as something you carry to just look for an exucse to get into a fight. I my days boys showed up at parties with their hands wrapped in tape and you knew they were looking for a fight.

Maybe a pocket knife is a weapon for SD, if it isn't a double edge weapon out right. Maybe my bowie if I were camping alone or with my wife could be a SD weapon, but I don't yse that as everyday carry, so be in town I would be looking for a fight.

I don't go looking for a fight, so I carry a gun.. The gun ends all fights.

lanternlad1
February 18, 2009, 07:06 PM
I don't go looking for a fight, so I carry a gun.. The gun ends all fights.

I carry a gun to end fights but I'd rather they not be started in the first place.

So I carry a cane.

This one, actually:
http://www.coldsteel.com/citystick.html

(I have the pistol grip one)

Now, I have a real knee condition that necessitates my using a cane, but I'd still carry it even if I didn't.

The cane is quite visible. The sight of it, and my willingness to use it, stops most fights before they start. I recently chased a man out of my yard who was quite obviously casing my property. He was bigger and in better shape than I was, but he left in a hurry, calling me all sorts of names as he went - and never stopped looking at my cane. (Most bullies and thugs talk a lot when they're routed) I had my gun on me, but never needed it. Teddy Roosevelt was right. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Better IMO than knuckles.

Duke of Doubt
February 18, 2009, 07:22 PM
The U.S. M1918 Trench Knife features, among other things, "brass knuckles" intended, originally, not as weapons themselves but as aides to excavation. Brass knuckles are illegal around here, but I don't know about the M1918 Trench Knife.

Clermont
February 19, 2009, 06:17 AM
In New York State, the M1918 Trench Knife, even without the knuckle hand-guard, would be unlawful to possess. It is double edged and would be defined as a dagger in the penal law.

qwert65
February 19, 2009, 06:54 AM
I think that with a KY ccw it might be legal I think you can carry anything with the permit-note I am not a resident of KY

Todd A
February 19, 2009, 09:34 AM
I am too old and grumpy to get into fights where i don't need a gun. The gun always ends the fight right now.

I don't go looking for a fight, so I carry a gun.. The gun ends all fights.

I travel into two states where I can't carry a gun, so I have other things I can press into service if needed. Not knucks though,they also are illegal there.

I am not old (40) but I am grumpy.:) I also don't have Chuck Norris skills or Arnolds build. But I am in decent shape...5' 11" , 30" waist, 155# and I do pushups,chinups,pullups,crunches, and dumbbell exercises for an hour every other day.

An attorney would have a hard time convincing a jury I needed to use a gun in every SD situation.Like facing an unarmed guy with no chance of escape.

I will avoid "fights" when I can, but I also understand that there will be times when my gun won't be there,or can't legally be my first option.

Only a fool would use something other than a gun in SD

I am not foolish enough to rely on only one tool for every situation.;)

hso
February 19, 2009, 09:39 AM
The U.S. M1918 Trench Knife features, among other things, "brass knuckles" intended, originally, not as weapons themselves but as aides to excavation.

That is incorrect. They served the same purpose brass knuckles have always served.

If you try digging with a knife you'll learn pretty quickly that even a "D" guard is a hindrance.

Gunfighter123
February 19, 2009, 05:35 PM
Yes , they are not legal in most/all states to carry.

However , they are EFFECTIVE !!! Like most SD weapons , the more training you do with them , the better they serve you.

I have about 15 knuckles in steel , brass, and plastic -- both 2 finger and 4 finger types. Back a few years ago , I spent some time learning to strike with them on a heavy bag and a boxing "speed bag".

Few nice things about them -- if worn under a set of gloves , they are not very noticable , as a impact weapon they work well on large mussle{sp} groups like the bicep etc. --- they are a KILLER when used on bone.

Once in a bar fight , I seen what happened to a buddy of mine when he got hit just once --- hit about 1" below his eyebrows , "sucker punched" --- he hit the floor and never moved the rest of the fight. It broke his nose , one cheekbone/ eye socket , and two black eyes for almost a month. The MCer that punched him was about 6 feet tall and maybe 200lbs.

Please note that I DO NOT advise you to break any law etc.

Macmac
February 19, 2009, 06:25 PM
Well my back is trash, so there is no way I am getting into a fight. When I need a cane, sometimes I need 2.. They are not a favorite for me, because when I need the 0ne or two I hurt, which makes me even more grumpy.

I don't give much thought to state laws and what they have to say. If i did I couldn't leave NH to attend any gun events could I?

So I just pack it and go as I please. The last time I was out of state for a while I was headed to Sunny Cal and back with my wife on a Kawii Nomad, motorcycle. Hit 40 states armed, and never had a need, but I almost did, so it was worth it for me.

I crashed on pine ridge, breaking 3 ribs, and injuring my wife's elbow. We were taken in by a local women who was in a bit of a stew and so we found that out the very next day.

Over the radio we learned 20 armed men were coming to throw out all the whites, of which we were 2. All sorts of cops showed up, and found us as a part of 'all the whites'.

The cops asked my wife if she were armed and she said no, but they should talk with me. I was in bed nursing my ribs and that is where the chat took place.

It was determined I would be allowed to remain armed.

Another thing is the Fedral laws states that if we are legal going from a legal place, in my case my home and home state, that so long as you will be legal where ever you end up, you are legal. I was planing to come back to NH.

So I maintain I was legal everyday, except when I got to yellow stone, because i thought of yellow stone as a National Forest, and didn't know it was a 'Park'. I had no choice but to remain silent..

The fire arms were both locked in cases at most times anyway because I cn't exactly shoot and ride and that doesn't come under SD anyway.

I have suffered fools before, and the last thying I ever want them to know is I am armed. I am not hasty to brandish. Pretty much if a bad guy sees the fire arm it is going to be the last thing he ever sees.

If I with draw the weapon I am going to fire it. I have suffered fools who find I am armed and they stop before I with draw the weapon... I guess I can live with that.

The other gun is a .40 cal Kentuck Long rifle we brought in the event we tripped over Lewis and Clark doin's.. We didn't so it was moot.

CSBOMB
April 27, 2010, 06:07 PM
To settle any speculation, here-say and plain old BS...

Colorado Revised Statute 18-12-102 (http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll?f=FifLink&t=document-frame.htm&l=query&iid=3e560e4d.76343909.0.0&q=%5BGroup%20%2718-12-102%27%5D)

Pretty clearly shows that possession of "metal knuckles" is a Class 1 Misdemeanor.

I don't know what state y'all are from, but to settle it for yourselves (and protect your arses)...google your local statutes.

razorback2003
April 28, 2010, 01:56 AM
We can own brass knucks in Tennessee as a part of a collection/curio/keepsake, but could have misdemeanor type problems otherwise. We can only own switchblades here as a keepsake or part of a collection. They are otherwise a 'prohibited' weapon...misdemeanor Class A fine. I own a set of knucks and a switchblade but sure don't take them in public. They stay at home with my other presents given by family like my Case knives. I've had my eyes on some nice switchblades at some gun stores...just expensive to add to my collection! Too bad I can only carry them when I go to Kentucky or Florida on my TN handgun carry permit.

Erich
April 28, 2010, 11:08 AM
They're illegal to carry in NM:

NMSA 1978, 30-1-12(B) specifically defines them as a deadly weapon and 30-7-2 makes it a petty misdemeanor to carry them except in the person's residence or on real property belonging to him as owner, lessee, tenant or licensee, in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance, for lawful protection of the person's or another's person or property, or by a LEO in accordance with his department's policies.

When I was prosecuting, I noted that police officers pretty much always wrote up idiots found to be carrying these things. Like nunchakus, these are popular with a young and dumb crowd that appreciates them more for "image" than for anything intelligent. Not only that, but a pair that doesn't fit properly can mess up a person's hand.

Black Toe Knives
April 28, 2010, 03:50 PM
I keep a pair in my Kitchen to crack eggs to make Quiche.

7X57chilmau
April 28, 2010, 03:57 PM
You've got a real love for quiche, dontcha Jim!

Black Toe Knives
April 28, 2010, 07:29 PM
My wife loves it. Every time I make it she lets me go shoot. Last time she bought me Randall Model 18 someone must have lost the cap. They stuck an ole Crutch top on it :). By hey It looks cool.

Gordon
April 28, 2010, 08:53 PM
I really can't stand knucks of any type, unless they are the guard of a knife.

zignal_zero
May 12, 2010, 10:21 AM
in Florida, they are considered a non-firearm weapon. this means you can carry them, fully exposed, or concealed (with a permit).

edit to add - i like metallic knuckles, ALOT. very effective tool at not only increasing the damage caused by your punches, but also (if they are decent knux) reducing the risk of injury to your hand.

CDR_Glock
October 21, 2010, 06:04 PM
I don't have brass knuckles. They are illegal. I went with anodized ALUMINUM SATAN'S KNUCKLES!!! BWAH ha ha ha!

http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6890ac6-aa82-34e8.jpg

http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6890ac6-aac5-dd35.jpg

I couldn't resist these! They're badder than Hell!!!

Ben86
October 21, 2010, 06:17 PM
I like brass knuckles, but only if they are think enough. Thin ones move around in the hand too much and become quite useless. They are legally sold as "belt buckles" in my state, and are usually of poor metal quality and way too THIN.

CDR_Glock
October 21, 2010, 06:38 PM
I bought the knucks to match my knife:

http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6890ac6-b29b-fba4.jpg

http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6890ac6-b2b2-2112.jpg

These are art pieces not weapons for me.

They are very detailed and well made. This was made by Dalton.

WardenWolf
October 21, 2010, 07:19 PM
Brass knuckles are an impractical weapon, although dangerous in the wrong situation. They're one of the very few cases where a ban actually has done some good, as they're not a weapon you can conceal yet still have accessible. They actually take some time and dexterity to put on, something nobody is going to have time for before a fight.

hso
October 21, 2010, 07:35 PM
I can't agree that any restriction or ban has any value since states where they are legal aren't experiencing a rash of problems from them.

WardenWolf
October 21, 2010, 10:24 PM
hso, there were problems, decades ago, before they were banned. Gangbangers, thugs, etc. would use them in bar fights and such. They were very common in biker gang circles. It was a real problem. The ban actually did make a difference, because just having them on meant arrest, and the laws varied from place to place but they were mostly illegal (even places where they're not strictly illegal, just wearing them in public could still constitute brandishing a weapon).

Fact is, they're a weapon of intimidation and thuggery. That's really all they are. They won't help a normal man defend himself from a skilled fighter or someone who's physically superior. In the hands of a typical person, they are inferior to even a knife. They're not an equalizer, and they're most definitely not a tool. They're purely an offensive weapon.

Note that the knuckles on the trench knives served another purpose, as well: they prevented the knife from being taken away from the wielder. The finger holes meant the knife was not easily disarmed or dropped.

hso
October 22, 2010, 09:50 AM
"they prevented the knife from being taken away from the wielder. The finger holes meant the knife was not easily disarmed or dropped."

Being a student of knives and combat with them for over 30 years I'm familiar with many of the myths, this is just another one told and retold (even in print . Finger holes actually mean that your fingers are more easily broken as blades are twisted or wrenched. A properly designed grip prevents slip and disarm much more without the risk of entrapment and injury. The knuckle guards like these were simply a punching "aid" and to provide some dual purpose protection to the hand from other blades (see S and D guard designs over the centuries).

JShirley
October 22, 2010, 09:51 AM
The trench knife knuckles were meant to allow prisoner capture.

Y'all, please consider carefully whether what you NEED to say merits raising a zombie thread.

John

zignal_zero
October 22, 2010, 08:35 PM
hso, there were problems, decades ago, before they were banned. Gangbangers, thugs, etc. would use them in bar fights and such. They were very common in biker gang circles. It was a real problem. The ban actually did make a difference, because just having them on meant arrest, and the laws varied from place to place but they were mostly illegal (even places where they're not strictly illegal, just wearing them in public could still constitute brandishing a weapon).

Fact is, they're a weapon of intimidation and thuggery. That's really all they are. They won't help a normal man defend himself from a skilled fighter or someone who's physically superior. In the hands of a typical person, they are inferior to even a knife. They're not an equalizer, and they're most definitely not a tool. They're purely an offensive weapon.

Note that the knuckles on the trench knives served another purpose, as well: they prevented the knife from being taken away from the wielder. The finger holes meant the knife was not easily disarmed or dropped

no weapon is purely offensive nor purely defensive. just as a weapon is neither good nor bad.

i'm not trying to be a jerk, but keep yer mind open to the fact that just because YOU can't find a good legitimate use for them does not mean other people can't.

i have a pair that, when carried correctly, are VERY easy and quick to slip on. i feel comfortable that they would be an asset. i do not use them on my strong side, they are used by my support side to back up other tools and to increase the effectiveness of my jab.

edit to add - i don't know if "pair" was the right word to use, it's only ONE piece. oh yea... and ALL bans suck. i've been a cop long enough to see the lunacy of posession laws :(

Deltaboy
October 23, 2010, 10:17 AM
I wish I could find my Grandpa's WW2 Navy issued ones I have not seen them in over 20 years. They had the blood tits on them and they weighed a ton. Grandpa taught me to use a roll of dimes taped up with electrical or Football tape. But now days that would get you in the pokie too.

oldbanjo
October 23, 2010, 11:44 AM
A piece of PVC pipe about 5" long in your hand will do wonders (don't use metal). From what I read in SC they a blackjack, and METAL pipe are considered a weapon if used in a crime. Similar to a knife over 2" long. Don't see anything about owning them. If someone sees a rule tell me where to find it.

TreeDoc
October 23, 2010, 04:25 PM
Would never use knucks, have to get to close. That being said, I have seen a fight outside of bar where an old car atenna was used quite effectively.

Joe Demko
October 23, 2010, 04:43 PM
I got punched in the arm with a set of knucks. Hurt like a dirty SOB and left some ugly bruises. Seems like something that works best if you use it for a sucker punch.

Erik M
October 23, 2010, 07:04 PM
If I had to get that close I'd prefer sap gloves. Both are legal in KY, but only if you have a CDWL.

jimmyraythomason
October 23, 2010, 07:09 PM
Illegal to carry in Alabama. "Anyone who carries concealed about his person brass knuckles, slingshots or other weapon of like kind or description shall, on conviction, be fined not less than $50.00 nor more than $500.00, and may also be imprisoned in the county jail or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not more than six months." Code of Alabama revised 2006. Section 13A-11-53

zignal_zero
October 23, 2010, 07:14 PM
Illegal to carry in Alabama. "Anyone who carries concealed about his person brass knuckles, slingshots or other weapon of like kind or description shall, on conviction, be fined not less than $50.00 nor more than $500.00, and may also be imprisoned in the county jail or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not more than six months." Code of Alabama revised 2006. Section 13A-11-53


i don't know anything about AL law. this is the first place i have ever seen that statute, so please don't think i'm disputing it. i just have to wonder if there is any verbage, in that section or any other, that prohibits carrying them in a manner other than concealed.

i wonder this because we (FL) have a similar statute (banning concealed carry) and it confuses some civilians and police alike. they assume these items are illegal to carry, but they're not (in FL), they're just illegal to conceal without a permit.

Webbj0219
October 23, 2010, 07:26 PM
Had a friend that was in a bar fight. I guess someone had talked some smack to him and he was in a bad mood so he punched the guy. The guy hit him once with brass knuckles and that broke his jaw in four places. He had his jaw wired shut for a while living off smoothies. Seems like a powerful weopon to me. Then again who knows what a single punch from that guy would do without the knuckles. Tough to make a comparison. My friend dropped the charges because he did start the fight after all. He didnt feel right about pressing charges although the police recomended he should. So I guess you can get away with it if the guy that gets hit doesnt want to press charges. And this was in Nevada. may vary

jimmyraythomason
October 23, 2010, 07:47 PM
zignal zero, I found in the original Code of Alabama 1905 where possession of "brass knuckles/metalic knuckles" were outlawed but cannot find the same language in the revised version. Brass knuckles are defined as "deadly weapons" by the code.

zignal_zero
October 23, 2010, 07:53 PM
Jimmyraythomason -

that's cool. i was just asking because, down here, they are defined as a "weapon" along with several other items, BUT we don't have any statute saying we can't openly carry "weapons" (with the exception of a firearm). our statute only says we can't "conceal" them. people refrain from doing it, because they assume it's illegal or worse because a LEO who didn't understand the law told them they couldn't, but the truth is - we have no STATE law that says we can't wear them on our belt, with a billy club on the other side, and a sword strapped across our back :D

mustang_steve
October 23, 2010, 10:46 PM
Knuckles make horrible weapons for many reasons, including:
hard to put on
hard to remove (injury to hand)
most aren't fitted properly (injury when used, or ineffective at the best)
most aren't trained to punch properly to begin with, let alone how to use knuckles effectively (technique is a bit different depending on your goals with it).

Honestly, a roll of nickels does a better job. When I was too young to carry a weapon but needed something (joys of growing up in a high risk area), I used to use a piece of dowel rod to do the nickel trick...all it does is make your hands more rigid, allowing for more power with less risk of breakage, provided you picked the right size dowel.

Carl N. Brown
November 19, 2010, 10:50 AM
My sister used a .357 magnum to chase-off a home invader and detain a car burglar for arrest; the police had no problem with that, because TN Const. Art I Sec 26 is interpreted as an absolute right to have a gun on the home or place of business for self-protection. The "going armed" statute treats brass knuckles as a prohibited weapon if carried for defense or offense. In other words, the system is cool with defensive use of .357 revolver, but not with brass knuckles (other than in the home as a collectible or paperweight).

hso
November 19, 2010, 11:14 AM
Keep in mind that there's an important difference between a "defense to prosecution" where meeting the criteria spelled out in the law for exception to the law puts the burden on the prosecutor and an "affirmative defense to prosecution" where the person with the prohibited weapon is required to "prove by a preponderance of the evidence" with the burden of proof to demonstrate that the prohibited weapon qualifies for exception to the law.

The curio/relic exception in TN is only under the affirmative defense to prosecution criteria.

Read your state law and consult with an attorney and/or get a written opinion from your state top lawyer for any legal opinion when it comes to the potential for criminal prosecution.

rscalzo
November 19, 2010, 11:53 AM
I'm almost positive that in NJ possession is ok

Yes, but you have to sing and dance the songs from "West Side Story" while in possession of them.

Joe Demko
November 19, 2010, 09:46 PM
When you're a Jet,
You're a Jet all the way
From your first cigarette
To your last dyin' day.

acgill07
November 19, 2010, 10:23 PM
In Arkansas they are explicitly listed as prohibited weapons. Possession is not only illegal it is a felon. Kind of crazy.

augustino
November 19, 2010, 10:39 PM
Sometimes the laws can be counter intuitive. For instance I have and have had for years a CCW permit in Tennessee. Yet I am not allowed to carry a folding baton which is far less lethal than a pistol in my oponion.
So my CCW allows me to carry a handgun but I'm violating the law if I carry an extending baton? I must first get certified by taking a course (training) by a certified instructor of the expandable baton. They say if you strike to the head it's considered lethal force. Personally I think a strike to the knee or ribs is plenty good enough. But if one is coming at me with a knife, a thump on his noggin might strike a bit of sense into the fool.

But of course NEVER violating the law I can't and do NOT carry an expanding baton.

Carl N. Brown
November 20, 2010, 07:28 AM
As I understand it (and yes I could be wrong), curio or ornamental collectible might work as a defense for ownership as a paperweight or wall hanger, but if it's in your pocket on the street, it's going armed with a prohibited weapon.

hso
November 20, 2010, 10:13 AM
CCW permit in Tennessee

TN issues a handgun carry permit instead of a weapons permit like KY issues so we only are permitted to carry handguns. Certification in baton is an obscure exception to the prohibition on carrying a "club", but it is a pretty good idea overall since such certification trains the wielder in the use of the baton in the less lethal role.

if it's in your pocket on the street, it's going armed with a prohibited weapon

Yep, carry is a no-no. Do keep in mind that if you don't have a collection on display or in a drawer or the knucks are "Uncle Ed's who carried them on the beat/during the war" it won't prevent you being charged with violation of the prohibition, it just means that you have that defense in court (which is an expensive proposition).

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