What is Project Appleseed?


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MeanStreaker
February 18, 2009, 12:30 PM
So, what is Project Appleseed? I've gotten some PMs from folks asking.......

The 30 second pitch is that Project Appleseed is a non-profit, all-volunteer organization that has the goal of returning America to a Nation of Riflemen.

From the founding of our country, to just a couple generations ago, the vast majority of Americans could pick up any rifle over the mantle and shoot that rifle effectively. Unfortunately, our Nation has collectively lost that skill. Appleseed can teach somebody that has never touched a rifle before how to safely (most important) and effectively shoot out to 500 yards with iron sights and ordinary ammo. This skill is easily obtained with some practice and persistence.

You'll learn The Six Steps to Firing the Shot, offhand, sitting, kneeling, prone positions (no benchrests at Appleseed), how to use a sling, how to zero a rifle, how to effectively adjust your sights by understanding Minute of Angle and what that means to your rifle, plus a ton more. There are fun and challenging drills throughout the weekend that will keep everyone from the newest noob to an expert marksman High Power champion entertained and improving.

More important than the marksmanship instruction, is that attendees will hear the events of the founding of our country. Specifically, you will hear about the events that occurred on April 19, 1775 when our American War for Independence officially began in Lexington and Concord. If we are taught anything nowadays about important events like Paul Revere’s famous ride and that day’s victory against the world's most powerful military force (the British Regulars) won by common citizens, we almost always hear more myth than fact. Project Appleseed was founded upon the belief that a responsible and active citizen requires the understanding of how our liberties were won. Participants will hear that history directly from fellow Americans passionate about the events of that day. You can be assured that there will be no boring textbooks or dry lectures. Attendees will participate in an entertaining and factual account of those that sacrificed to win our freedom.

On top of that, it's a great family friendly setting. We have whole families show up (women and children shoot free!) and just enjoy the weekend with like-minded folks. The majority of people that come to the program feel deep down in their gut that something is wrong with America and we're straying from our Founding Principles. I hate to say it like this because it sounds corny, but I get reminded of the ending of Field of Dreams where there are a line of cars coming to the baseball diamond, and they're not even sure why.

It doesn't matter what your specific political issue is. Appleseed doesn't care. We don't touch modern politics. We just feel that teaching people basic marksmanship and making as many sleeping Americans (so bring your friends!) really think about the sacrifices that common folks just like us made to secure unprecedented freedom will get this country back on track. We lead the proverbial horse to water to wake them up... then they go off inspired to get active to work in making a difference in what is important to them. So be sure to bring those sleeping Americans with you that are more interested in American Idol than voting.

Here's a review (http://www.ohioccw.org/content/view/3852/83/) I wrote up after my first Appleseed in 2006. More info, including the national schedule (over 300 shoots coast to coast), forums, and a great blog can be found at http://www.appleseedinfo.org

If you want more details, I look forward to speaking with you. Please feel free to ask questions and send me PMs. I look forward to seeing you (and your friends!) on the line! As you may have seen, we have locations all across our great nation this year. Nobody is "too far" from Appleseed anymore. :) If you are, then find private land or a range with a good backstop and 25 m firing line and we can bring Appleseed to you!

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H2O MAN
February 18, 2009, 12:36 PM
What is Project Appleseed?

Project Appleseed is what keeps FRED's from filling your orders.

Gewehr98
February 18, 2009, 03:02 PM
Like how it's going to save America.

From what, I don't know, but he's determined to get that in there, every damned issue of Shotgun News.

Getting folks out to practice marksmanship, ala' the Nation of Riflemen or the DCM/CMP? That's way cool.

Babbling about being prepared for an as yet unannounced (insert UN Blue Helmet invasion/rogue government/crackdown on gunowners/BOHICA/TEOTWAWKI) scenario where you'll save the day with your single firearm?

Creepy.

What's his plan after the Rifleman bit? He works so hard to upgrade people from "Cook" status, is that all he's got?

IOW, what about the Intel and Counter-Intel folks, the Supply personnel, the Battle Staff, etc? Cooks are quite necessary in the general scheme of things, too.

Of course, he's not broadcasting the means or intent to foment another American Revolution. He doesn't need that kind of attention.

But I have to ask, why all the fuss and hoopla about simply getting people out to the range to shoot, wrapped in the trappings of some sort of 3rd Echelon Underground Partisan recruitment drive?

And that's why I wonder if Fred is an unwitting member of the Threeper clan, long on style but short on substance.

Appleseed is fun, and teaches the oft-forgotten skills of marksmanship. Period. Don't paint it or glorify it as anything else. :(

I've spent a lot of time shooting competitively, and Fred may very well have been squadded with me at Camp Perry on one or more occasions. I've also qualified expert in rifle and pistol during my 20+ year military career, with the chest trash to prove it. Fred had best not be calling folks "cooks" indiscriminately, because some of those "cooks" have actually seen the elephant.

I like what Appleseed is doing to get folks out shooting. I'll not attend one, especially if half of what I read in Fred's disjointed Shotgun News diatribes is present at those Appleseed shoots. Hell, he's more than welcome to call me a cook. ;)

MeanStreaker
February 18, 2009, 03:07 PM
Appleseed only does two things, and does them well:

1. Teaches basic marksmanship
2. Gives factual history lessons about April 19, 1775

Absolutely nothing more, nothing less.

I guarantee you you'll hear nothing about what's above at any Appleseed shoot. That junk has nothing to do with Appleseed.

And yes, after one can score at least 210/250 on the AQT target at an Appleseed to earn your "Rifleman" patch, then the real work begins...... Teaching others!

Like how it's going to save America.

From what, I don't know, but he's determined to get that in there, every damned issue of Shotgun News...

The program can save America. From what? Apathy and ignorance. When somebody (most of my peers - I'm 28) who has no idea about our Constitution, Founding Principles, and how they were achieved learns about the sacrifices of normal citizens for our benefit, it wakes them up and they get active politically - writing legislators, voting, etc. I've seen it happen countless times.

Hopefully none of us are against that goal.

lipadj46
February 18, 2009, 03:18 PM
I've never been but it would be interesting to go to one to maybe pick up some good technique pointers.

Lovesbeer99
February 18, 2009, 08:15 PM
Ok I have some questions -
1. Who is Fred and why is he important, or impotent?
2. Why are so many rounds needed at Appleseed? I shot often and understand the mechanics of taking a good shot. You can practice with 50 rounds and have a good session and I've done it with 10. 100 could be better, definately more fun, but why 500 rounds in a weekend? I'd think my single shot, no mag, no tube Marlin 100 would be a great training tool, but I could not fire as many rounds as the guy next to me with a semi auto. Not that 500 rounds is horrible, and could be fun, but is it needed? Really?

3. Does Appleseed put out a manual or is it all instruction?

Duke of Doubt
February 18, 2009, 08:29 PM
Is this Fred the same Fred who wrote a column for Shotgun News about a decade ago, maybe a little less? Boris and the UN guys in APCs getting harassed by Riflemen with their M1A1s, that sort of thing?

lipadj46
February 18, 2009, 08:39 PM
Is this Fred the same Fred who wrote a column for Shotgun News about a decade ago

Yes and also of Fred's M14 Stocks which used to be the best place to get a USGI M14 stock. He used to be slow and then if was a 50/50 chance you would get your stock then then as time went by the odds were less and less you would get your stock. He will still take your order though and who knows if you are lucky you still may get one. Pretty much Appleseed is his bread and butter now not M14 stocks. Which is a shame because he is still probably sitting on the biggest pile of M14 stocks anywhere.

rino451
February 18, 2009, 08:47 PM
There is a manual.

500rnds because each string is ten shots from 4 different positions. Not to mention all the time spend just getting one's rifle zero'ed and identify all the reasons why you're not putting all the shots in a 1" square at 25 meters.

I think that someone earlier in the thread is mad because he hasn't been given the secret handshake yet.:neener:

H2O MAN
February 18, 2009, 08:51 PM
I will attend the event in Toccoa, GA if FRED would ship me that pristine birch E2 stock I ordered long ago :rolleyes:

lipadj46
February 18, 2009, 09:00 PM
Ok I have some questions -
1. Who is Fred and why is he important, or impotent?

Ha! I just reread that. I did not know fred had trouble getting it up :neener:

I will attend the event in Toccoa, GA if FRED would ship me that pristine birch E2 stock I ordered long ago

He just needs time to locate it in his warehouse as they are in a dusty corner somewhere next to the camo painted stocks and the tiger stripe, flamed and quilted stocks.

MeanStreaker
February 19, 2009, 12:20 AM
The round count is because the course of fire spends a lot of time in each area of instruction to really try and perfect one specific lesson at a time.

An instructor won't teach The Six Steps (Sight Alignment, Sight Picture, etc.), and sling usage, and all positions, and transitions, etc. and only then let you loose with firing. You will learn one specific lesson, and then shoot to practice. Repeat for each lesson.

expvideo
February 19, 2009, 12:36 AM
I went to a "mini appleseed" shoot in Monroe, WA. I learned a lot. It was worth my time, to say the least.

intheburbs
February 19, 2009, 01:02 AM
I'm definitely in, will bring a friend or two. We'll be hitting Sandusky one of the weekends this summer.

Interceptor_Knight
February 19, 2009, 01:58 AM
Ok I have some questions -
1. Who is Fred and why is he important, or impotent?
2. Why are so many rounds needed at Appleseed? I shot often and understand the mechanics of taking a good shot. You can practice with 50 rounds and have a good session and I've done it with 10. 100 could be better, definately more fun, but why 500 rounds in a weekend? I'd think my single shot, no mag, no tube Marlin 100 would be a great training tool, but I could not fire as many rounds as the guy next to me with a semi auto. Not that 500 rounds is horrible, and could be fun, but is it needed? Really?

3. Does Appleseed put out a manual or is it all instruction?
Fred is the driving force behind the Appleseed program. Appleseed would not exist if it were not for Fred. If you take the time out of your busy schedule to attend a shoot, you will find that the Appleseed message is pretty simple and low keyed. No talk about UN convoys, etc. Just good marksmanship training and a history lesson regarding April 19th 1775.
You may understand the mechanics, but can you demonstrate your understanding by putting all of your shots into 1" squares at 25M? Can you demonstrate proper use of a sling? How about the Sitting, Standing (off hand) and Prone positions? Can you shoot precisely in all of these positions?
There is no way you can practice all 3 positions at 25M, 100M, 200M, 300M and 400M with just 10 rounds...;)
Appleseed is a full weekend of marksmanship training and practice. By the time the weekend is over, you will have a better understanding of Natural
point of Aim, Sight Alignment and Sight Picture, Adjusting your Aperture sights for range and windage, your trigger control should have improved and you should be more conscious of breath control among many other things. If you are truly already a master of marksmanship, then please still come as most people who attend are not and we can use the help!!
Appleseed training materials are available on line at appleseedinfo.org/smf

Interceptor_Knight
February 19, 2009, 02:15 AM
What's his plan after the Rifleman bit? He works so hard to upgrade people from "Cook" status, is that all he's got?

IOW, what about the Intel and Counter-Intel folks, the Supply personnel, the Battle Staff, etc? Cooks are quite necessary in the general scheme of things, too.
But I have to ask, why all the fuss and hoopla about simply getting people out to the range to shoot, wrapped in the trappings of some sort of 3rd Echelon Underground Partisan recruitment drive?
Appleseed is fun, and teaches the oft-forgotten skills of marksmanship. Period. Don't paint it or glorify it as anything else.
I like what Appleseed is doing to get folks out shooting. I'll not attend one, especially if half of what I read in Fred's disjointed Shotgun News diatribes is present at those Appleseed shoots.
I would like to give you a personal invitation to attend an Appleseed. Since you are in Wisconsin, and we will have 6 or more Appleseed shoot locations this year, it should be easy for you to find one close to home. We will even be at Lodi twice or more this year. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a line.
First off, you need to separate the Fred from the articles in Shotgun News from the Appleseed program. You will hear NONE of that type of discourse as official instruction. The ONLY thing expressed other than Marksmanship is a history lession regarding April 19th 1775 and a reminder that a Rifleman gets involved in local, regional and national politics instead of sitting on the couch complaining about politics.
You hit the nail on the head in your statements above. Appleseed teaches the forgotten skills of marksmanship... period. That is it in a nutshell. If every American would get off their dead butts and get to the range, they would appreciate the 2nd Amendment more. Fred is just having fun with some good natured ribbing with the cook vs Rifleman stuff. Anyone who takes it personal just has to show up and demonstrate their mastery of marksmanship. That is the intent.
I have seen many High Power shooters show up and not be able to put all of their shots into the 1" squares at 25M right off of the bat. Most everyone who takes the time to come will learn something. For those who have heard it all before, it will jog your mind and be an excellent exercise to keep you sharp. I was a multiple Marksmanship Expert award holder in the years I served active duty also. I don't know what the Air Force program was like for you, but Marines take their marksmanship serious. I definitely enjoyed my first Appleseed and continue to enjoy being involved in the program. If you have nothing left to learn, please try to remember that we have a whole country full of individuals who desire some of this knowledge. Please come and share it. We need more experienced Riflemen on the firing line helping to teach those not so experienced.
One of the problems I see with the current High Power program is the drop in attendance the past few years. Maybe this isn't the case all over, but it certainly is in the midwest. The Service Rifle clinics I have attended provided very little instruction for new shooters and most of the day was spent doing an actual shoot. Appleseed is 2 days of instruction and is very drill intensive. The actual AQTs take up a small portion of the weekend.

cincinnatislim
February 19, 2009, 02:45 AM
Can you guys imagine an America where talking about guns and shooting doesn't put you "on the list" but, moreover, not talking about guns and shooting puts you on the list?

There was a time in American history when men knew what they were about. If you were going to use the word "American" and "man" in a sentence together, there were some prerequisites. There was an internationally-known and well-established definition of what an American Man was. He was hard-working, he was tough. He was the kind of guy who could build a fire, change his own oil, and shoot a rifle.

That guy could take care of his family, friends and neighbors. And when all of those guys stood together, there was no one else on earth who could take care of them!


Are we still those men?

Are the "Americans" around you men whom you'd gladly stand next to when it came time to defend our homeland or even your own neighborhood?

An American Man is not only accountable for his own actions, but proud of them. He is a man who knows well what he is about.

Too often today we allow our Liberties, Freedoms, and most importantly, our RIGHTS be eroded away through ignorance, apathy, and inactivity. Why? Because with those Rights comes the responsibility of being accountable for our actions.

Unless we collectively stand together, unless we take pride in who we are and what we're about, we will lose the most important of our Rights and the rest will soon follow.

Don't let that happen.

Say whatever you want about Fred or Appleseed or anything at all about any shooting or 2A-related program. Say it because you can.

For now.

While we still have the Right to stand and be peacefully recognized, why not put your name "on the list" as well? Why not do it with pride? Why not stand up proclaiming, "I am an American, and I shoot firearms!"

Why not do it?

... because they'll have to pry it from your cold dead fingers, right?

Molon Labe.

Molon Labe while you're sitting in a cold, wet trench with nothing to eat for days on end and so many sleepless nights you can't see straight.

Molon Labe when your family, friends and neighbors are already gone.

Molon Labe when America as we know it is no more....

But why do that when you can sit inside McDonalds and Molon Labe from your laptop? Right now you can Molon Labe from your car, your T-shirt, your business cards. You can Molon Labe without ever firing a shot.

Our forefathers and countless military members fought and died to give us the Right to peacefully change our future. If we don't stand together and Molon Labe as a group, we're going to lose our very right to whisper the words.

That's where Appleseed comes in. Like it, hate it, go, don't go. You make your own choice. But, remember, you have the Right to make your own choice. How long will you still have that Right if you choose to Molon Labe on your own?

funfaler
February 19, 2009, 04:06 AM
Interesting how the detractors above have not been to an Appleseed event, and chose to be critical of a single person in a program that has thousands involved, over 300 events nation wide and is making great progress at getting people out, active and energized......yep, our biggest threat is not the Brady Campaign, the Liberal Gun grabbers or even the UN, it is us....no wonder this nation "needs a little saving".

The Appleseed Project is a great place to learn fundamental rifle marksmanship skills, that have been traditionally held (uniquely) by Americans. The Americans of yesteryear were were much more capable with their "primitive" rifles than 99.9% of Americans today are, with their much more modern rifles.

If one would like to learn the skills of being able to accurately shoot a 20" target out to 500 yards, with just a standard rifle, iron sights, only a sling for support, standard ammo, from field positions, then an Appleseed is a great place to learn that. Your kids, wife/girlfriend, and any friends that are in the military, will shoot free.

You will meet some great folks, and will be treated to some stories of the first Americans, the ones that sacrificed their lives, families, prosperity for you and your family to enjoy the Freedoms you have today.

You will want to visit the web site to register for one of the 300 events nation wide, that are near you. And there you can find out what is recommended that you bring to best enjoy the experience above. With over 8000 people through the program in the last 3 years, and the nearly 10,000 expected to attend this year alone, it has proven to be a very fun and perhaps life changing event.

If you so dearly love your couch, as to be willing to sit on it, watch your nation go the way of the do-do bird, then by all means, may your remote rest lightly on your lap. And while it is adorable that "americans" of that mind set would so easily leap at the chance to criticize those that actually feel that "freedom isn't free", that there is a debt of this generation to repay the previous ones for their gifts to us, and an obligation to the coming generations to preserve what we have been given, these same "americans" have proven themselves to be inconsequential to current events and as such, deserve about that much attention and respect.

The Appleseed program is well proven to vastly improve ones skills with a rifles as well as reconnecting today's Americans to the first Americans, the ones that truly deserve our honor, respect and eternal gratitude. If you want to know about the program ask someone who has been, they will give you their experience, rather than uninformed, biased speculation.

Lovesbeer99
February 19, 2009, 07:56 AM
I don't wish to be critical of Appleseed. It actually sounds like fun for all skill levels, but I just keep hearing a tone that... 'you can't learn to shoot unless you've been to Appleseed. Appleseed invented sight alightment, focus, breath control and the use of a sling"

If you've had no training Appleseed sounds like a great concept. Many people learned to shoot from other people who couldn't shoot so basic concepts were not taught. It can be a real eye opener to someone who thinks they can shoot, but can't. But remember those 6 points have been around long before Appleseed and are taught in books, Boyscouts, 4H, Army, National Match and many shooting clubs just to name a few. Many of us learned those concepts already. That being said, Appleseed can still be a lot of fun.

Any yes I can consistantly put a round in a 1 inch circle at 25 meters. Every shot. I also practice dry firing weekly in sitting, prone and off hand. I can pass the Appleseed/Army qualifications in all 4 positions, but I don't like kneeling.

H2O MAN
February 19, 2009, 08:22 AM
Lovesbeer99 I don't wish to be critical of Appleseed. It actually sounds like fun for all skill levels, but I just keep hearing a tone that... 'you can't learn to shoot unless you've been to Appleseed. Appleseed invented sight alightment, focus, breath control and the use of a sling"

If you've had no training Appleseed sounds like a great concept. Many people learned to shoot from other people who couldn't shoot so basic concepts were not taught. It can be a real eye opener to someone who thinks they can shoot, but can't. But remember those 6 points have been around long before Appleseed and are taught in books, Boyscouts, 4H, Army, National Match and many shooting clubs just to name a few. Many of us learned those concepts already. That being said, Appleseed can still be a lot of fun.

Any yes I can consistantly put a round in a 1 inch circle at 25 meters. Every shot. I also practice dry firing weekly in sitting, prone and off hand. I can pass the Appleseed/Army qualifications in all 4 positions, but I don't like kneeling.

Well said sir.

Nickle
February 19, 2009, 08:54 AM
Well, theree's LOTS of misinformation floating around here, mostly from people that have little to no clue of what they're talking about.

Yup, all you detractors heard that right. If you haven't been to an Appleseed, how do you know what is taught at one?

You don't, and can't know.

Let me make some of it mor eclear for you.

Project Appleseed is run by a Non-Profit (as in 501(c)3 Non-Profit) organization.

Yes, Fred is the founder. There isn't any money that flows into his pocket, other than a reimbursement for SOME (not all) of his expenses. Same as what the Instructors see. We're all volunteers.

Most of us running and teaching with the program aren't spouting off about the UN. Even Fred let that die YEARS ago. I'm a long term SGN reader, I would know. Sure, it USED to be in his columns, but hasn't for several years now. Does Fred still feel the same way about the UN? I don't know, why not ask him.

I saw a few comments that are patently false. Is Appleseed the ONLY way to learn to shoot? We sure don't think so, and we're the ones running the program. We simply adapted a known marksmanship program, that has worked for years, and use it.

The originator of that program? The United State Army.

Now, the principles to shooting well are what they are. You can't change that, though you actually can ignore a few and get away with it, for a while. NPOA? I knew about NPOA LONG before Fred did, and long before this program existed. I knew about it in the 1960's, believe it or not, learned it from my father, a military Highpower and civilian BenchRest competitor.

Those of you that have issues with Fred's (as in Fred's M14 Stocks), need to take those issues up with him. I suggest a phone call, and the number is 919-663-2027.

For those of you are already expert shooters, I'll extend an invitation to come help us teach. I took that invitation a couple of years ago myself.

Want to do about the same thing we do, on your own? We'll respect you for that, too.

But, burying your heads in the sand, and saying there's nothing wrong in the country right now is denial of the truth. Unless you think the loss of your rights, including your 2A rights is acceptable. (If you think that way, you MIGHT be on the wrong forum.)

Interceptor_Knight
February 19, 2009, 10:16 AM
I don't wish to be critical of Appleseed. It actually sounds like fun for all skill levels, but I just keep hearing a tone that... 'you can't learn to shoot unless you've been to Appleseed. Appleseed invented sight alightment, focus, breath control and the use of a sling"

If you've had no training Appleseed sounds like a great concept. Many people learned to shoot from other people who couldn't shoot so basic concepts were not taught. It can be a real eye opener to someone who thinks they can shoot, but can't. But remember those 6 points have been around long before Appleseed and are taught in books, Boyscouts, 4H, Army, National Match and many shooting clubs just to name a few. Many of us learned those concepts already. That being said, Appleseed can still be a lot of fun.

Any yes I can consistantly put a round in a 1 inch circle at 25 meters. Every shot. I also practice dry firing weekly in sitting, prone and off hand. I can pass the Appleseed/Army qualifications in all 4 positions, but I don't like kneeling.Well said sir.


You say that you do not wish to be critical but by making these claims you most certainly are being so. This thread began as a well intended informational piece on what was self described as a program that can teach a novice to shoot well. Individuals then decided to come crap on it.
In response to your claims that Appleseed boasts to be the end all, you two have definitely heard nothing of the sort from this thread and apparently have not bothered to read the posts contained in this thread beginning with the very first one.
If you had bothered to pay attention you would have noticed the multiple invitations to come pass your knowledge on to others along with the invitation for those who are not already experts to learn the basic skills to get them there or improve upon what they already know.
There is no need to spin yarns. As good as you believe yourself to be, there is little chance that you are capable of placing every single shot you fire in the black of a sheet of 1" squares and therefore score perfectly on every AQT you may try. We have had High Master rated High Power shooters not be able to accomplish that.
Even if we were to assume that you are capable of firing a perfect score at every High Power match you attend, that skill is absolutely useless if you are not passing your knowledge on to others. The difference between High Power and Appleseed is that High Power is a competition where the mission of Appleseed is to get everyone up to a very basic level of competency and then get those Riflemen to come back and teach others. In this capacity Appleseed is truly unique and there is no other program which is even close to reaching the number of people that Appleseed continues to reach each year. The growth of the program is noting less than phenomenal. The Appleseed mission is to introduce those who have not had the pleasure of serving in The Marine Corps or Army, etc and present them with the tools to become a Rifleman. For those who are already experienced it is an opportunity to improve upon what they already know. And then the ultimate goal as I mentioned multiple times is to pass their knowledge on to others.
How about taking that chip off of your shoulder for a bit and come join us at an Appleseed to find out for yourself what we are about instead of being judgemental from behind a keyboard. There is a nation of novice shooters just waiting for someone knowledgeable and with the desire to help others to turn them into Riflemen. :)
I sincerely invite you to come and attend an Appleseed so that you can meet us in person and see what we are all about. We need more unity in the shooting sports or we are destined to be buried by those who would wish to eliminate the Second Amendment. How does the quote go?? Either we hang together or we most certainly will hang seperately??

QuietEarp
February 19, 2009, 12:05 PM
Isn't it entirely sexist for women to shoot free?

That being said the cost is quite reasonable and the concept does sound good.

Nickle
February 19, 2009, 12:16 PM
Isn't it entirely sexist for women to shoot free?

That being said the cost is quite reasonable and the concept does sound good.

On the surface you would think it would be.

In practice, it isn't.

It simply gets the women to drag their men off from the nice comfy couch, and get him out shooting, WITH her.

For families, it's a way of giving them a break, and when Mom comes to one of our events, before long, the youngsters come, too.

And those youngsters are our future.

H2O MAN
February 19, 2009, 12:16 PM
Interceptor_Knight

I sincerely invite you to come and attend an Appleseed so that you can meet us in person and see what we are all about.
We need more unity in the shooting sports or we are destined to be buried by those who would wish to eliminate the Second Amendment.



Unity is great, but perhaps you missed this...

H2O MAN I will attend the event in Toccoa, GA if FRED would ship me that pristine birch E2 stock I ordered long ago :rolleyes:

Hoppy590
February 19, 2009, 12:28 PM
appleseed supporters just need to drop the "i can shoot to 300 yards!" attitude. a scaled down target at 25 yards is not the same as an actual target at 300.

congratulations, you now have basic instruction. thats a good thing. now practice it

Noban
February 19, 2009, 12:30 PM
Appleseed are good folks. We have a couple of events scheduled with them in the next few weeks at our range in Santa Barbara. They've been with us before and held a well attended and professionally run event.

taliv
February 19, 2009, 12:48 PM
I have seen many High Power shooters show up and not be able to put all of their shots into the 1" squares at 25M right off of the bat.

maybe if their rifles are zeroed at 200 or something. or maybe because their sights are set for a larger aiming black and they need to adjust them to a 1" aiming black.

We have had High Master rated High Power shooters not be able to accomplish that.
Even if we were to assume that you are capable of firing a perfect score at every High Power match you attend, that skill is absolutely useless if you are not passing your knowledge on to others.

you guys seem a little derisive towards HP shooters as well.

i'd just as soon see both sides stop hackin on each other

Lovesbeer99
February 19, 2009, 01:19 PM
In response to Interceptor Knight and Nickel - I was in know way critical of Appleseed and welcome its mission and goal. I was simply stating that Appleseed is not the only way to learn to shoot and some of us have had prior instruction.

I actually do teach shooting, so I don't know why you assume that I don't. Is it just because I don't participate in Appleseed. I'm also part of a 4H youth shooting program.

I did in fact bother to read the thread, but I also botherd to read several other threads, and I have to tell you. The message I get is a strong militant angry defensive message like the one you just gave. It's a little scary to me. I don't think I want an angry person teaching me anything. And I also get the sense that just because I haven't been to Appleseed, I dont' understand the basic concepts of shooting. Actually I do. As far as a lot of missinformation, maybe, but I thought this thread was clear as to the intentions of Appleseed. Do I really need to attend one to understand what its about. I can't just read the Appleseed website? Or just talk to people like you?

Again, Appleseed sounds great, but please don't assume that because I haven't attended, that I can't shoot, don't support shooting, or the 2nd, or that I'm not capable of understanding. Like I stated, I'm sure it's fun for all skill levels and I'll try to get to one this year, but I'm not going out of my way.

By the way. I was at the range this past weekend practing at a target that has 10 1 inch circles and I measured 25 yards (close enough). I went through 3 targets (it was cold so I left early) and hit each with every shot. I don't know why you claim I'd have to be a grand master to do this. With the knowledge that Appleseed teaches, and a lot of practice, this seams very feasible. Especially with a match grade gun and ammo, of which I have both. I don't think I can readily do this at 1000 yards though.

For the record, not everyone who supports Appleseed sounds angry, but a lot of you do. (Get ready for some angry responses)

crebralfix
February 19, 2009, 01:45 PM
Lovesbeer99,

I assure you that if you have the fundamentals down, you can and will hit a target at 1000 yards. What you stated you can do in post #29 WILL directly translate into long range hits so long as you account for wind and mirage.

I use match grade ammo in my cheapo Savage rifle and have NO trouble scoring hits at 1000 yards.

Appleseed is just one way to learn to shoot. I've never seen any Appleseed staff member claim otherwise. In fact, at the Korean War Sniper Shoot years ago, they told me they pulled out the old US Army rifleman and sniper courses from WWII/Korea for their program.

Lovesbeer99
February 19, 2009, 01:53 PM
crebralfix I'm with you. the first time I shot at 300 i was nervous, but sure enough I was on target. Same skills, same focus, same everything other than learning how to read the wind in a multiple valley range.

Good times though and a good confidence builder. I just don't have access to a 1000 yrd range. If I did I'm confident I can get scores, but not on every shot at that distance without some practice. With practice, I'm sure I'd do very well.

The Guy
February 19, 2009, 02:58 PM
Wow.

Same old faces, same old arguments.



There is nothing but basics taught. Basics are the foundation to all other skill sets. Appleseed is a great place to learn the basics. I know of no other TEACHING program that does so well with so little.

We TEACH. It is not a competition. The round counts average 500 at most Appleseeds. So LEARNING can be accomplished. Last time I had HP shooters on my line, I asked them afterwards if they learned anything they can use in HP. They answered yes. I said "Don't worry about my feelings, you don't have to lie," and they still thought that yes, Appleseed taught them some stuff, and both thought that their learning would push them to the next level.

As for 25m basics working to 500+, absolutely. I think actual distance is easier for many of my students than the 25m portion. Basics are basics, no matter the range. Just figure comeups and wind, and there is 500 waiting to happen.

Appleseed is for men women and children. All can bennifit from learning the basics. I wish I had never shot prior to Appleseed, because I wish I had learned right the first time. I had a load of bad habits to break myself of before I broke through to achieve Rifleman. But nothing like it was availible to me growing up, so I had to wait.

With the skills I learned at Appleseed, applied correctly, I make hits at ranges I would have thought unachieveable without a bench and a sandbag. I am not anything special, just another Rifleman.

No UN/black helicopters/UFOs/etc talk from the Appleseed program. Just basics and Historical perspective.

BTW, Fred's M14 Stocks is not Appleseed. Fred's collumn is not Appelseed. The Appleseed is a seperate entity. So bones to pick with Fred are for Fred, not Appleseed. Fred's collumn is paid for by Fred, not Appleseed, out of his own pocket. Fred butters no bread with Appleseed. Heck, he looses money with it. Appleseed is not about money, thus the lower than sea level cost. Many shoots I do the entry fees paid fail to cover my gas bill. The few that do do not make up for the diference. Mad at Fred? Get revenge. Go to a shoot, pay your 70 bucks, and bring 5 kids and 3 women. Technicaly, you have now screwed Appleseed out of 640 bucks. Smile, if it makes you feel better, then sit back, pop off a few rounds and maybe, just maybe, have a good time. Heck, be a shame to learn something, but you never know.....

See you on the line.

Guy

Wheeler44
February 19, 2009, 04:09 PM
Lovesbeer(I like the name and the product) as mentioned above Appleseed certainly is not the only way to learn to shoot...It is a way to learn, though..

Lemme tell ya about my appleseed experience...........

I grew up shootin'...lots of us did.....In my early teens I was given an old sporterised mil-surp and a press, dies and molds and taught shootin' and reloading and encouraged to shoot and reload...It was fairly common waaayy back then.....I inherited some old family heirlooms and was told about my ancestors and how they used firearms in the military, law enforcement and in pioneering their way westward.....

For reasons of my own, I did not shoot at all for over 20 years...Oh well, it's not like I went all Anti or anything....I just didn't shoot or keep guns around.

Like a lotta dads I have a good relationship with my son...It's just that, for some reason, there are some things that I just have a hard time teachin' him. When he became interested in shootin' I realized that shootin' was gonna be one of those things....Oh, I taught him firearm safety and how to align the sights...I told him to squeeze the trigger, not yank it..things like that..But I can't say that I ever really taught him how to shoot....I still can't.

About a year ago I read about the Appleseed Project here on the High Road...
I looked into it and it seemed like a good fit for us...It was affordable..geared toward new shooters, affordable, allowed us to shoot most of the course with .22s and allowed us to use our old mil-surp stuff too. Did I mention that it was affordable? It even stated in the event flyer that those of us that did well at the short course would be given an opportunity to shoot at full distance... I planned on takin' my son, shootin' one of those AQTs (Army Qualification Tests), gettin' my patch and then go shoot some distance with the big boys...Well, ya know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men don'tcha?

What I did was learn that over the years I had picked up some habits that weren't conducive to consistent good shootin'..And I learned how to correct them..I didn't shoot well enough to go to the full distance range and that kinda frosted my beer glass if ya know what I mean...

So I asked when the next Appleseed was gonna held around here and if any were gonna be held any closer to my home town....Since I was never in the Military I didn't know about the pitfalls of opening my mouth and askin' questions like that...Next thing ya know I was volunteered (I kinda thought that you have to volunteer yourself, that's what I get for thinkin') to find a place to shoot as close to my house as I could. Well that seemed easy enough so I agreed.

I met another Appleseeder through their forum (www.appleseedinfo.org/smf)and he lives just 40 miles from me (we traveled over five hours to get to the first shoot) and I helped him build a range at his place. I practiced what I had learned and practiced and practiced (dry fire, dry fire, dry fire) while helpin' build the range and settin' up a shoot here...It wasn't all that hard... And I earned my patch. So did my son..and we were asked to become Appleseed instructors....so we did....

Together we have instructed in five different western states...We have met all kinds of folks, attendees and instructors..and they are some of the best folks that I've ever met.....We've even bunked with Fred out on the Appleseed trail..I haven't read anything that he's written in the Shotgun news,(except the one issue where he reprinted my experience meeting Massad Ayoob out on the Appleseed trail) but I know that he is nothin' like what some folks here are sayin' about him....But I do see where what he considers to be humor might be misconstrued......

All in all my experience has been great... I look forward to the upcoming Appleseed season and all of the good folks that I will meet and the friends that I will see again...


Wheeler44

Oh and by the way....Until Appleseed I have never attempted a shot over a couple or few hundred yards...Using what I learned at Appleseed and a little coaching from a fellow instructor I was able to "ring the gong" with regularity at 1000 yards at the Appleseed range in Three Forks MT... Now that's fun stuff...

JWarren
February 19, 2009, 04:44 PM
I've never been to an Appleseed.

I don't know Fred.

I see a lot of criticism thrown at him for some odd reason.

I'd likely find NO value personally from attending an Appleseed. My "marksmanship" training began at age 7-- 30 years ago. But I come from a different world than MANY shooters today that have no family tradition of firearms ownership.

Even so, I may take my nephew to an Appleseed in a couple years just so he can have the experience.

I'll make this simple for the slow kids:

Don't agree with his "wild" ideas? Don't listen.

Don't think the Appleseed is worth anything? Don't go.

Think he is a nut? File him away with the other "nuts."


And then ask yourself EXACTLY what YOU have done to promote shooting sports in the USA.

Have YOU reached that many people? Have YOU had that kind of impact?

I didn't think so.


Let Fred do his thing, and do yours. When are doing something routinely on that level, you have a basis to criticize. Until then....



-- John

H2O MAN
February 19, 2009, 04:49 PM
FRED's was doing their thing real well until they/he got distracted by and involved with Appleseed.

Lovesbeer99
February 19, 2009, 05:08 PM
Wheeler44 - thanks for the story. I'm glad it worked out for you. My story isn't exactly the same, but bascially I decided to shoot again and started reading books and videos and got some personal instruction. I knew I was missing something so I looked to learn everything I could. I love the fact that Appleseed is affordable cuase even books are expensive. It's all good though. Most of my shooting has been with a sniper rig out to 300 yards. With match ammo I can consistantly shoot 1.5 in 5 shot groups at that range. But I do love shooting with iron sights and have moved in that direction over the past year. And I love my .22's. This year I plan to shoot mostly with irons.

My brother in law shot some years ago with his father, but after his father left, he stopped shooting. A few months ago I bought him a Mosin and now he's all into shooting again. I've actually convinced him to attend an Appleseed in NH (He lives in RI) this spring. If I can make it up there (I live in NJ) I'll go with him. I think this is exactly what he needs and he's very excited.

I think it's great that you take the time to teach people how to shoot. I myself didn't know about Appleseed till recently, but I did start a 4H youth shooting club in my county. I'm thinking that for one of their projects they could host an Appleseed in NJ. I'll have to look into it and see if 4H would allow it.

Good luck and shoot safe. I do.

Lovesbeer99

Lovesbeer99
February 19, 2009, 08:32 PM
So I need to apologize and then ask some follow up question. This is an honest mistake (if not I would not post an apology), but for some reason the numbers didn't click in my head untill I just checked some of my targets from this past weekend. So I did not shoot at 25 yards, I shot at 50 feet at an official NRA A-17 target. That's the correct distance for that target. When I look at my NRA 75foot small bore rifle target, the circles are much bigger. NRA targets are typically 2 moa 10 rings. So when I shoot at 100 yards with an official target the 10 ring is 2 inches. When I shoot at 100 yards with a 200 yard reduced target the black is the same size as the 100, but the rings are smaller and the 10 ring is 1 inch. So I apologize for the error, I had no bad intentions. For the record, I'm pretty sure I can stay in the black at 25 meters, since after all, if you can shoot at 25 meters, you can shoot at 1000 yards. I'll test my skills this weekend.

So here is my question. What is the target that Appleseed uses? Are they official NRA, or do they just stay with 1" cirlces. Couldn't that be discouraging to a new shooter? Also, according to the Appleseed wedsight, the goal is to make everyone a rifleman which is loosely defined as being able to make a shot at 500 yards at a man sized target. Does that translate to 1 inch at 25 meters? What gives?

Sam
February 19, 2009, 08:46 PM
When I'm at gunshows trying to get people to come to Appleseed, I run into a lot fo guys telling me I'm already a great shot, don't need it. Don't know if they are a decent shot or not, won't make any claims that Appleseed would improve their shooting either.

What I will say is the same thing I tell everyone that says he's a good shot.

"That's fantastic! Come on out to the range, show me how good you are and if you meet the standard, I'll put you to work teaching other people that aren't so good ,YET."

Beside some good history lessons, what Appleseed is about is common people, teaching common people, to shoot uncommonly well. Grab your rifle, a pile of ammo and come on down. Learn or relearn the basics, get some top notch instruction and coaching, then turn the skills around.

You see instead of yakking on the web, and watching grownups play kids games on the tube, Appleseed people are doing something.

They generally do not believe that you can buy success.
They think that if you work at something (like rifle marksmanship) you can gain a skill that is worth more than getting in a hardware race.
They believe that if you know something about where you came from, you might want to change where you are going.
They believe that people should become part of the nations heritage, not watch it on the tube or pray that a negligent school system will tell their kids about it.
They believe that good citizens are not about talking a good rifle, they know how to use most any rifle.
They believe that good citizens don't have to be pried off the sofa because they are already on the range passing their skill on to a new generation and refreshing the memories of the last one.

They Believe

In America

Do You?


Now I'll say something that Fred hasn't in a while.
Are you a cook or a Rifleman?

Prove it
Pay it forward.

Sam

taliv
February 19, 2009, 08:55 PM
ignoring the fact that meters != yrds,
1"@ 25m is ~= 4 MOA,
4 MOA @ 500 yrds ~= 20"
both IPSC and IDPA targets are 18.25" wide

iirc 19" is a popular width on mil targets but i might be confusing that with telco racks

(important safety tip: don't bother searching google for 'average chest size' and 'average MAN'S chest size' isn't one bit better)

so yeah, if you can HOLD well enough to hit 1" at 25m then you stand a good chance of hitting a "man-sized" target at 500y IF you also:

3) know your dope at that range
2) can adjust to the wind, etc
1) see your target


edit: i would like to see the target. do they have something you can download or print out?

Interceptor_Knight
February 19, 2009, 08:57 PM
The Rifleman's standard is 4MOA. 4MOA as you know is 1" at 25M, 4" at 100M, etc out to 16" at 400M.
The ideal Appleseed includes a KD course of fire out to 400M actual distance for those who can demonstrate proficiency at 25M on the reduced size targets. It makes sense to work out the "bugs" at 25M through repeated drills.
We do not use 1" circles, but 1" use squares as a learning tool. The actual shape used during the AQT is USMC/Army style targets. Which simulate a man from the chest up.
.
. AQT Target Picture (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=631.0;attach=364;image)
.
.
1" Squares picture (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=631.0;attach=365)

taliv
February 19, 2009, 09:03 PM
cool. so does it matter what we shoot them with? irons/optic? standing/kneeling/prone? sling/freehand?

FreuderLocks
February 19, 2009, 09:10 PM
well, I dont mind the battle of Concord and Lexington (FreuderLocks is a Historian and speaks about himself in third person) ,and i wouldn't mind some professional training, this is probably something i should have bought myself for my birthday. I guess its never too late for a birthday present.
-FL

Interceptor_Knight
February 19, 2009, 09:27 PM
So I did not shoot at 25 yards, I shot at 50 feet at an official NRA A-17 target. That's the correct distance for that target. When I look at my NRA 75foot small bore rifle target, the circles are much bigger. NRA targets are typically 2 moa 10 rings. So when I shoot at 100 yards with an official target the 10 ring is 2 inches. So here is my question. What is the target that Appleseed uses? Are they official NRA, or do they just stay with 1" cirlces. Couldn't that be discouraging to a new shooter? Also, according to the Appleseed wedsight, the goal is to make everyone a rifleman which is loosely defined as being able to make a shot at 500 yards at a man sized target. Does that translate to 1 inch at 25 meters? What gives?



The actual "Quick and Dirty" AQT (reduced size for 25M) is techically less demanding than 4MOA for a perfect score if you take into account the size of the reduced targets. The point of the Rifleman's standard is that if you can place all of your shots in a 4MOA square, you can certainly shoot Rifleman. A 16" Circle (4MOA) at 400M will give you a high probability of hitting a man in the chest at that range. Even a 20" at 500M will get you there. These may not be the legendary 1 shot 1 kill .5MOA precision sniper shots like you see in the movies, but you have a high probability of scoring hits. Points can be scored even if you can only shoot 8MOA. This allows new shooters to score points and see their progress as they advance towards that sometimes elusive Rifleman's score.
If you can shoot all 10s on NRA High Power targets, you should certainly be able to easily score Rifleman on AQT targets. Appleseed AQT shooting is more demanding than High Power in the fact that you have relatively little time to make position changes as you are shooting at multiple targets along with your mandatory mag changes. If you can shoot .5MOA but your NPOA places you in the 3 ring or in a no score zone, you can loose alot of points quickly, especially in the prone position where points are doubled because of only shooting 10 rounds instead of 20.
Appleseed does not claim to have invented anything. Appleseed does not claim to be the only game in town. We do not hide the fact that we are using time proven techniques which the Army and USMC have been using forever. We do not look down on High Power shooters. This would be silly. We do not look down on other schools of training. I am critical of the percieved attitude of some shooters who are only concerend about their own scores and not about teaching others. They are free to be this way, but it is 180 degrees contrary to the Appleseed mission.
I am proud of what Appleseed has and is accomplishing. The growth is incredible. The number of new shooters being reached is phenomenal. Please do not confuse pride and being quick to defend criticism by those who have never attended an Appleseed with aggressiveness against other programs.

Interceptor_Knight
February 19, 2009, 09:37 PM
cool. so does it matter what we shoot them with? irons/optic? standing/kneeling/prone? sling/freehand?
Iron sights are encouraged but not required. Slings are encouraged but not required in all positions including Off Hand. We shoot Off Hand, Sitting and Prone.

Gewehr98
February 19, 2009, 09:46 PM
And then ask yourself EXACTLY what YOU have done to promote shooting sports in the USA.

Have YOU reached that many people? Have YOU had that kind of impact?

I didn't think so.

Lifetime NRA member.

Friends Of The NRA organizer.

NRA-certified range safety officer, for three separate ranges over the last 15 years. Most of those years purely voluntary, not even gas money.

DCM/CMP M1 Garand qualification shoot director and coach.

Hunter safety instructor.

NRA High Power Competitor/Instructor.

(I've probably been squadded with Fred at Camp Perry and didn't even know it...)

IPSC competitor/match director.

IHMSA competitor/promoter.

F-Class competitor.

Did I mention most of the above was during an active-duty military career?

Since retiring:

BPCR Silhouette competitor - at Lodi, WI.

Matthew Quigley Shoot competitor - Forsyth, MT.

I'm working right now on putting together a handloading clinic or three at our local shooting club in Columbus, WI. I've already had a couple sessions in my garage to teach new handloaders. It's picked up enough that I needed to move the venue elsewhere...

I am also volunteering a lot of time getting the new 600-yard range installed, and of course the usual upkeep of the current 200 yard range. We just got done rebuilding the bullet traps and mining the lead out of same. Not glamorous, but necessary to keep folks shooting.

I honestly don't see much of my living room sofa. I guess I'm too busy saving America in a non-Appleseed manner. That's why it chafes me when I see the obligatory and smarmy "get off your couch/what have you done?" remark. Appleseed ain't the only game in town, nor is it the oldest, nor is it the one true sword.

This is without doubt one of the most prominent gun forums on the web. I would hazard a guess that there are some movers and shakers present who do a lot for shooting/2A/American heritage issues, and don't particularly need to be browbeaten or berated with such verbage. Many would probably put my efforts to shame, quite truthfully. There's a good chance they weren't asleep in high school history, either, and could rattle off Revolutionary War minutia ad nauseam, as well as other defining moments of pure Americana.

I do indeed laud the tenacity and vigor with which Fred, Interceptor_Knight, MeanStreaker, Funfaler, and other folks I recognize from appleseedinfo.org push the program. If you search by Funfaler's username here, you'll find the majority of his postings are about Appleseed. The same goes for MeanStreaker. That's some hardcore dedication for you, one must admit.

Now Appleseed has even managed to spill out of its normal location in The Rallying Point subforum, where gatherings are supposed to be announced/discussed, and since overflowed straight into Rifle Country. Who knows what next week will bring? (Hint - there's an Activism subforum ripe for the taking. Don't worry, the mods aren't looking...)

Interceptor_Knight, I appreciate the invite to Lodi and the Winnequah Gun Club. Every time I go to that range, I'm usually making big clouds of white smoke and hitting steel buffalo silhouettes way out there, so I'm well aware of the facility. I may take a drive over there when Appleseed is in town, just to see why I'm spinning my wheels in my other endeavors. Even though I find no value in the program, I've got two 20-something stepsons who haven't been in my shoes, and could probably make use of the training. In the meantime, I've got to finish this PowerPoint presentation for my handloading clinic. I'm saving America, one handloaded round at a time, you might say... :D

Lovesbeer99
February 19, 2009, 09:48 PM
I am proud of what Appleseed has and is accomplishing. The growth is incredible. The number of new shooters being reached is phenomenal. Please do not confuse pride and being quick to defend criticism by those who have never attended an Appleseed with aggressiveness against other programs.

Thanks for the response. This sounds a lot less angry and I'm with you. I didn't know about appleseed and I wanted to get the word out and to teach so I found a local 4H that didn't have a shooting club and now I started one. I hope it takes off. And for the record, great job, cause we need a lot more shooters.

Now back to the targets. Using official NRA targets at 50 yards for small bore and 100 yards for center fire, I'm fairly consistant (we all have bad days) at 1 moa from prone. I shoot off hand often, but never really measured my groups. As long as I'm in the black I'm good. Also, I shoot a lot of 300 yard, but it's all with a scoped sniper rig off of a bi-pod so I know it takes skills, I'm not sure I can compare.

So, to be a rifleman, I need to shoot 4moa from prone? What about offhand or sitting? I hate kneeling. I'd rather just shoot offhand if I can't sit.

Interceptor_Knight
February 19, 2009, 09:59 PM
So, to be a rifleman, I need to shoot 4moa from prone? What about offhand or sitting? I hate kneeling. I'd rather just shoot offhand if I can't sit.
We do not shoot kneeling unless you prefer that over sitting. We shoot Prone, sitting and off hand. Off hand is considerably more generous than 4MOA at 25M. The targets which will make or break you are the 4th stage prone as these are double points and the general shape of the 5 ring is 3MOA x 4MOA. with smaller areas at the top.

taliv
February 19, 2009, 10:04 PM
Appleseed AQT shooting is more demanding than High Power in the fact that you have relatively little time to make position changes as you are shooting at multiple targets along with your mandatory mag changes.

did you mean that the other way around? you realize the national match course makes you go from standing to sitting and standing to prone and shoot 10 rounds in 60 seconds with a mag change?

are you saying appleseed's course is more challenging than that?

what is their course? i couldn't find it on their website
i did find this post in the archives:

AQT course of fire:
All targets from 25 m range -- 100, 200, 300, 400 m simulated targets as you work your way down
100: standing -- 10 rounds
200: sitting -- 2 round/3 round with a mag change on target 1, 5 rounds on target 2
300: prone -- rapid fire 2 rounds, mag change, 1 round on target 1, 3 rounds on target 2, 4 rounds on target 3
400: slow fire prone -- 2 rounds on target 1, mag change, 2 rounds on target 2, 3 rounds on target 3, 3 rounds on target 4


is that it? so you use a larger square when shooting standing?

Gun Wielding Maniac
February 19, 2009, 11:24 PM
I've been to 3 appleseeds and loved all of them. They are excellent for learning and practicing the vital basics of rifle marksmanship. I think there is a lot of merit to the program from both a social as well as practical standpoint.

The close range target thing... really, if you can do it on the reduced distance targets you should be able to do it on further targets. Calling the wind is something that comes with experience.

I shoot competively on the national level. I shoot on my state national guard rifle and pistol combat team. I teach army soldiers marksmanship... have taught thousands how to shoot. I attend professional training every year. I've been on three combat tours. With this background, I'll say that Appleseed provides a level of one on one training which is outstanding.

MeanStreaker
February 19, 2009, 11:45 PM
I agree with some previous posters that there shouldn't be any animosity between any gun owners/competitors. High Power and others were specifically mentioned. You won't find any such animosity or comparison at an Appleseed shoot. We're all in this thing together!

what is their course? i couldn't find it on their website

There are many different targets that are used and many different drills throughout the course of the weekend.

However, I assume you're asking about the Army Qualification Test (AQT).

There are four stages to the 25m AQT that Appleseed uses.

Stage 1: One 100 yd simulated target. Fire 10 rounds in 2 minutes.

Stage 2: Two 200 yd simulated targets. You begin with two mags (2 rounds and 8 rounds). Begin standing and drop to a sitting position to fire 5 rounds in each target (with the mag change). 50 seconds.

Stage 3: Three 300 yd simulated targets. You begin with two mags (2 rounds and 8 rounds). Begin standing and drop to a prone position and fire 3 shots, 3 shots, 4 shots (left to right) with the mag change. 60 seconds.

Stage 4: Four 400 yd simulated targets. Slow fire prone for 10 shots, no mag change. Begin in prone and fire 2 shots, 2 shots, 3 shots, 3 shots (left to right) in 5 minutes.

Lovesbeer99
February 19, 2009, 11:54 PM
So which target it used for each stage? I might want to practice this weekend.

MeanStreaker
February 19, 2009, 11:57 PM
...If you search ... you'll find the majority of his postings are about Appleseed. The same goes for MeanStreaker. That's some hardcore dedication for you, one must admit...

I absolutely hate to go off-topic, but what's above made me curious.

Thus, I just went and did a search for every one of my posts on here. I counted 11 out of my 178 since I joined in 2005 that discussed Appleseed...

I sure am a one-trick monkey. :rolleyes: :D

Gewehr, I apologize if you think that overwhelming number of posts discuss Appleseed too much. I'm just a big believer in the program.

Even so, let's all try to stick together and support all non-profit grassroots efforts since we know the anti gun rights crowd will be doing their best to divide and conquer us.

taliv
February 19, 2009, 11:58 PM
cool, so that's actually reasonably close to the national match course except the NMC is 200, 300, 600 yrds and you get 10 minutes instead of 2 minutes for the "slow fire" (since some dude in the pits is pulling and marking your target between each shot) and we get 10 more seconds in the "rapid fire"

so are all the targets squares? and you just make them bigger?

Interceptor_Knight
February 20, 2009, 12:01 AM
did you mean that the other way around? you realize the national match course makes you go from standing to sitting and standing to prone and shoot 10 rounds in 60 seconds with a mag change?

are you saying appleseed's course is more challenging than that?

what is their course? i couldn't find it on their website
i did find this post in the archives:
.......
is that it? so you use a larger square when shooting standing?
Please begin by looking at This Target (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=631.0;attach=364;image) AND This Thread (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.0)... There are no large squares for the AQT. The only squares used at an Appleseed are in the instruction portion.
National Match Course rapid fire requires you to shoot at 1 single target. Appleseed requires you to shoot at multiple targets with a required mag change in most all stages. In the 3rd stage you must shoot at 3 different targets. In the 4th stage, you must shoot at 4 different targets.
3rd Stage is standing to prone 10 rounds into 3 targets in 60 seconds with a required mag change (fire 2 rounds into first target then change mags then 1 more round into first target then 3rds into next and 4 rounds into the last target).
In the respect that you have multiple targets, yes, I am saying that Appleseed is more challenging.

Interceptor_Knight
February 20, 2009, 12:05 AM
so are all the targets squares? and you just make them bigger?
So which target it used for each stage? I might want to practice this weekend.

No big squares for AQT. Squares are only for instruction and practice. Please reference This Thread (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.0) for the targets used.

Interceptor_Knight
February 20, 2009, 12:16 AM
Interceptor_Knight, I appreciate the invite to Lodi and the Winnequah Gun Club. The same goes for Green Bay, Shiocton, Racine, etc.. Every week it seems like we add another Appleseed location this year..:)
I would like to see one at Rapids also.
I hope that you eventually consider joining us and becoming an instructor. You may feel that you do not need Appleseed, but Appleseed sure needs more people like you...:D
There is no doubt in my mind that you would find little challenge in shooting a Rifleman score. Any accomplished High Power shooter should naturally do well. That isn't the point though. That is no reason to stay away. Appleseed is a good 2 day clinic for shooters to work on the basics and an opportunity for accomplished shooters to help others not so fortunate who have never been exposed to this type of shooting. The mission is focused on the newer shooters. They are the future. Preaching to the choir is a formula of death for the shooting sports.
We certainly are not the only game in town and we are admittedly one of the very newest. The difference is in the amount of new shooters we are reaching and the number of Riflemen and future Riflemen we are making each year. The more Riflemen we make, the higher chance that some of these will spill over into High Power and maybe give that worthy program a boost in interest and participation. The number of High Power shoots in WI has definitely dropped off in recent years along with the numbers of shooters showing up to compete. My home range here in Green Bay (Suamico) Nicolet Rifle Club is feeling the effects with its programs.

Lovesbeer99
February 20, 2009, 06:34 AM
So if this is an effort to get people to learn to shoot better, do we need better guns? I'm thinking that the intention is no, but if I showed up to an event I'd think I'd like to bring my single shot 22 target rifle. It's slow to fire and not capable of a mag change. So how would this affect my experiance at Appleseed? I just sold my 10/22 and my level gun is a pain from prone. My singleshot is extremely accurate and has great sights. So what do you foresee?

Interceptor_Knight
February 20, 2009, 08:38 AM
So if this is an effort to get people to learn to shoot better, do we need better guns? I'm thinking that the intention is no, but if I showed up to an event I'd think I'd like to bring my single shot 22 target rifle. It's slow to fire and not capable of a mag change. So how would this affect my experiance at Appleseed? I just sold my 10/22 and my level gun is a pain from prone. My singleshot is extremely accurate and has great sights. So what do you foresee?
You can "run what you brung" but the experience would not be the same. You do not need anything better than a 4MOA capable rifle and ammo with you shooting it. You would be able to work on your NPOA, Sight Alignment, Sight Picture, Trigger Control, etc but firing the AQT would be an extra challenge. A single shot would make rapid fire more difficult plus with each shot and reload you are disturbing the rifle position in your shoulder and potentially your NPOA as you contort and attempt to reload quickly. Are you able to utilize a sling with your target rifle??
Whatever you would choose to bring, I believe that it is still an excellent opportunity for you to work on your marksmanship and would benefit from doing so.
Assuming a goal of shooting Rifleman, it would be better to use an unmodified factory 10/22 or Marlin 60 with Tech Sights or even factory sights than to use a uber-accurate single shot bolt gun. The standard we train to is 4MOA. The goal is to shoot a 210 to reach Rifleman. If you are capable of a 210, the next step is to become an instructor. People are discouraged from returning to Appleseeds just to improve their score and are instead encouraged to help others progress to Rifleman. If you can shoot 210 or above, you must have a pretty decent grasp on the basic concepts and can surely practice on your own. We have a nation full of people not capable of shooting a 210 and our mission is to reach these people to get them to that level.
I would encourage you to borrow a rifle to at least bring along in the case that the single shot becomes more trouble than you anticipated. There may even end up being an extra loaner rifle at a shoot if you are lucky.

Wheeler44
February 20, 2009, 11:24 AM
Lovesbeer..It is possible to shoot a score of 210 or better with a singleshot bolt action rifle, especially if it is accurate and has a good sight system....But I must stress that practice loading will be of utmost importance, because of the timing issues..10 shots in 50 seconds(the second stage.from standing transition into sitting or kneeling) is challenging...I usually try for 8 perfect shots and have had time for 9 before..but ya gotta reload pretty quick...same with the third stage (from standing transition to prone 10 shots 60 seconds) Mag changes....what mag changes?...
Single shots are like a mag change every shot so no worries there...

I gotta be honest the only times I've done it is because I forgot the mags at home and just had the single shot adapter with me...
Oh well......First ya walk, then ya stoop....Gettin' old is pigeon poop.

Wheeler44

Interceptor_Knight
February 20, 2009, 04:08 PM
If there is an individual who is causing problems, that individual can be dealt with. You can PM me and I can look into it. No matter what you do in life, you will run into people who rub you the wrong way. They are not necessarily a fair representation of the whole organization and most times when their actions are pointed out, the organization can and will deal with them in an appropriate mannor. It could be that this person is not aware of the perception others have of him and his techniques.
In this day and age, there is no reason not to communicate issues through the proper channels as most anyone can be reached by an E-mail.

OhhGeeez
February 21, 2009, 03:31 PM
Shooters CENTER-UP!
When and where did the American Revolution begin? I'll give you a hint; it did not BEGIN at Lexington or Concord, and it did not BEGIN on April 19, 1775.

What was it that emboldened men, women and children to sacrifice their homes, families and their VERY LIVES to birth this free nation, America, that we now enjoy? Preservation of liberty and freedom was foremost in their hearts and minds and they were willing to die for it. We MUST remember them and their stories. Besides a really good rifle marksmanship course, this is what Appleseed does.

Some Americans have NEVER heard these stories. Men women and children will attend Appleseeds in 2009, and will be reminded and connected to the stories of 1775. (women and children will attend FREE, thus more and more NEW American shooters are born who might not otherwise even think about going to a shooting event). They may come to shoot, and that is fun, important, and necessary, but they will hear the history and hopefully come to the realization of the sacrifices made for us.

The combination of shooting AND American history can be life changing. It awakens Americans, and we become better Americans. This combination in Appleseed brings HOPE to our present times. Please do not underestimate the power of the events surrounding April 19, 1775. It is why I Appleseed.

"Posterity, you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it."
- John Adams

OhhGeeez

P.S. I'll be at the Lodi Appleseed on April 18-19, and hope to meet some more of you Wisconsin and Great Lakes region shooters. At this point in history, IMHO, I think we all need to get TOGETHER. MANY buckets are needed to help bail the USS America.

hwyman
February 21, 2009, 04:21 PM
September 1774 in Cambridge and Boston???

22-rimfire
February 21, 2009, 04:48 PM
Related question... you mention Fred or Freds... Is this the same person who started "FREDS" stores. They are kind of like a dollar store.

Interceptor_Knight
February 21, 2009, 04:53 PM
No....

Interceptor_Knight
February 21, 2009, 04:56 PM
Some Americans have NEVER heard these stories.
I asked a Jr High shooter at our local range last year what they could tell me about Paul Revere's Ride. Their answer was..
"Didn't he yell The Confederates Are Coming??"
I proceeded to give them a little nudge onto the right path..... :D

Buckskinner
March 1, 2009, 02:12 AM
Here is an old post on a different forum about the targets, including pix of the shot targets.
On the package of "AQT" targets, each of the four targets have course of fire instructions.

http://www.libertysprice.org/yabbse/index.php?topic=1839.0

On a different thread there, I described my experience shooting that AQT.

I think these AQT targets are still the foundation of an Appleseed.

Shooting these targets according to instructions is challenging.

Kymasabe
March 1, 2009, 01:59 PM
Hey all, I've been to an Appleseed shoot attended on in Orlando almost two years ago. And yes, Fred was there.
I do read Shotgun News and I don't read Freds articles anymore, most are just too far over the edge for me. But, at the Appleseed shoot, Fred didn't mention a single word of the dribble he usually publishes in ShotgunNews. He spoke of the historical events of April 19, 1775 and that was it. We split up into our different firing lines, were introduced to our instructors and went on with the day. No matter how long you've been shooting or how well you think you shoot, everyone can learn something at an Appleseed shoot.
It's a very friendly atmosphere, there were families there with kids shooting, the instruction was excellent and I'd recommend it to everyone.
It's also probably the cheapest marksmanship training around and I think kids shoot for free. We did go thru aprox 200-250 rounds per day so show up stocked up but considering that it's an all-day shoot, that's not too bad. I used to shoot that much in a few hours shooting trap so 250 rounds seems "normal" to me. To only go out and shoot 50 rounds is a waste of time.

Anyway...it's a great time and you're really missing out if you don't treat yourself to a day or two of Appleseed. You don't have to do both days, you can do Saturday only if you want to. It's not some heavy, para-military, new American Revolution recruitment site or anything. I think what they're trying to do is encourage gun owners to shoot, shoot more, and encourage others to learn to shoot and become gun owners. It's strengthens the gun industry and helps protect our 2nd Amendment rights if more of us have something to loose. Promoting the sport and encouring new shooters is the only agenda that I see.
Regarding equipment, a semi-auto is definately best choice but I was on the firing line with guys with bolt action Mosin's. Mag-fed is best but the SKS shooters had no problems keeping up with their stripper clips. There were piles of AR-15's, some Cetme's and FAL's, Garands, M14's, a few AK's, lots of SKS's and huge numbers of .22 cal rifles. I used my Bulgarian AK on day one and switched to my Ruger 10/22 on day two...and yes, I earned my Rifleman patch with my 10/22.
So, go borrow a buddies 10/22 or whatever, takes cheap ammo, and go have fun.

Don't knock it, it's a good time, you'll learn alot.

T191032
March 12, 2009, 08:15 AM
Now more than ever is the time to get out to an Appleseed. If you own a .22, then you can shooting relatively cheaply and learn or improve your marksmanship skills. Some people want to know what you can use, well in these tough economic times, a .22 LR is certainly welcome. Other calibers welcome are .223 to .30-06 levels. No "BIG" bores like .338 or .50 BMGs.


Here is helpful info on the Appleseed Project :

To help some "find their way" I isolated and decided to post some links that should help others searching for things. . .

http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/as_freds_plan.htm

http://appleseedinfo.org/blog/

http://appleseedshoot.blogspot.com/

http://appleseedproject.blogspot.com...ing-rifle.html

http://appleseedshoot.blogspot.com/

http://ironat500.blogspot.com/2007/07/aqt-target.html


Thread about the Tech Sights :

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...aining +Rifle

No pics, but some more cross-pollination for reference :

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...ight=Appleseed



Here's well, 37 pages worth of "Liberty Training Rifle" or "ALTR" as I call it. The Blogspot is just a "fluff" portion (the basic goodies, no extra filler. . . Oh my, starting to sound like a commerical )

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.p... 41&topic=32.0


LTR PARTS LIST

ESSENTIAL
Tech Sights TSR-100 $55.00, TSR-200 are $69.00 http://www.tech-sights.com/
Tech Sights TSM-200 (Fits Marlins) $69.00

From Midway http://www.midwayusa.com

1 Sling swivels & studs $8.99 item 190783 wood stock
item 705310 plastic stock
USGI Garand sling $ 10.29 item 777813 green
item 174603 black

RECOMMENDED
Sight adj. tool $6.99 item 260328
Extended mag release $4.49 item 662086 (Ruger 10/22)
Bolt release/hammer set $35.99 item 145851 (Ruger 10/22)
Spare magazines (get 3) $12.99 item 252579 (Ruger 10/22)
Snap caps $6.99 item 521044
Bore snake $14.99 item 260083

OPTIONAL
Recoil buffer $8.19 item 554518 (Ruger 10/22)

More information can be found here: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.0

Evenflo76
March 23, 2009, 02:20 PM
I'm signed up! Hernando Sportsmans Club in Brookesville, FL. April 18 & 19

Prepping brass for it already.

slzy
March 23, 2009, 04:18 PM
the only ting i have against Fred,is he keeps asking "Are you a cook,or a rifleman?"

my grandfather was 35 in ww1 and the old man in the unit. he became chief cook and bottle washer,and major factucom,for his wide variety of skills.

my father says grand dad frequently hit three qual with a double barell muzzle loading shot gun. i consider him a fair rifleman.

does'nt the ranger battalions have cooks? bet they can shoot,too.

PHenry
April 2, 2009, 04:01 PM
I brought a buddy that shoots NRA HP competitions and he had a blast.

Yes, he made Rifleman, but it weren't as easy as he thought it would be.

He told me that even he learnt much in two days (he only planned to attend one day, but decided to stay for Sunday).

Anyone that thinks Fred is "crazy" has never met him - I have. He's very driven alright, but his heart is 100% in the right place and he has given everything to the Appleseeds project.

Anyone that thinks there is anything "nutty" about Appleseeds has never been to an event - that is a fact.

The people that I have met at Appleseeds events are the best - just regular folks - lots of families, as it is definitely family friendly.

Saving a country by trying to maintain the traditions of the Founders is a hard sell in a country where the newest flat panel TV is more important than life itself to many.

I attended two events and the shoot boss asked me if I would like to serve as an "instructor in training". I said I would and I have now worked my way up to shoot boss myself.

The time I have spent in service to Applseeds stands as my proudest accomplishment to date. That may sound corny and some here might take great fun in ridiculing me for it. That's OK - the first thing an instructor is required to do is to check his / her ego at the door.

I see America circling the drain and spent years ranting about it. All that ranting got me acid reflux and a lot of gray hair - it got my country even less.

Now I git to actually do something for Liberty and it feels good. At the end of every event I ask all the shooters a hard question - I ask them who is responsible for all of America's troubles. Is it the politicians, is it the media?

Then I git to stand in front of a crowd of regular Americans whilst they look me in the eye and say without hesitation- No! It's OUR fault!

Hard to put a price on that for a man like me.

If any of you feel the same - please consider affording us your presence at an event. Nothing weird - nothing subversive or illegal. Just marksmanship and history and a bunch of "common" folks spending a weekend together honoring thems that came before us.

On April 19th, 1775 our ancestors purchased, in our stead, at a cost of blood and sacrifice, the freedom that allows us to speak our minds here on this fine forum. We have been coasting on their brave and selfless deeds for over two centuries.

I have seen many an expert shooter humbled by the storied AQT target and more than one growed man git moist in the eyes at the telling of the true stories of his ancestors bravery and sacrifice.

Half the attendees shoot for free these days and frankly if weren't for a lot of people donating their time, their effort and even their own money - the program would have died long ago.

I have given a lot to the program, so have many others, but nobody has given more than Fred and his wife.

Maybe Lady Liberty will "leave the building" one day, but nobody can say honestly that active Appleseeders stood by and just let it happen!

Fred told me once that the program is strictly results based (I was whining about how hard I was working at the time as I recall). It doesn't matter how hard we work - only whether or not we succeed. Much like shooting at a target. It matters little how many rounds you put down range - only the hits count!

Success to us would be an Applseeder in the Whitehouse who honors his or her heritage and the ideals of the men and women that rested this great nation from the bonds of tyranny so long ago.

Is that such a bad thing?

Lovesbeer99
April 2, 2009, 07:30 PM
PHenry, thanks for the update, but that sounds a little political and soap box speaking. I'm not in anyway dishouring our heritage or those who have fought for our rights but I thought politics was left out of Appleseed. I thought it was just shooting skills followed by some history.

I'll attend one if any are in NJ cause I really have to see this now. I've heard so much, and most of it was defensive to the point of anger and prejudice. There was a person earlier who claimed that I should teach people to shoot, but never onced asked me if I did. The assumption was that if I don't teach at Appleseed, I don't teach? Not at boyscouts, at 4H, at my local club?

I love patriotism and I'm patriotic myself, but I don't like politics at my concerts, at my kids soccer game, or at my weekend shoots just to name a few.

If any are coming to NJ, I'll make every effort to show up, but I hope the promise of "no political speaches" is true or I'll be disappointed.

lipadj46
April 2, 2009, 07:45 PM
Anyone that thinks Fred is "crazy" has never met him - I have

I don't think he is crazy, more like borderline huckster the way he keeps his M14 Stock site going without putting a real warning up like "you can order but you will never get your stock but it's OK because I will not charge your credit card, well except for those whose cards I did charge, sorry about that".

Nothing against appleseed I believe it is a good thing but I can see how it can attract some dbags. Guns, big trucks, fast cars, large breasts and fighting/guard dogs generally do. You just have to ignore them.

Jeremy2171
April 6, 2009, 01:23 PM
Nah..I still think "Fred" has issues... nothing against the program but "Fred" has problems and is not a full 2d Ammendment supporter as he leads to believe.

Dragk913
April 6, 2009, 03:39 PM
The First Rule of Project Appleseed is: You do not talk about Project Appleseed.

The Second Rule of Project Appleseed is: You do NOT talk about Project Appleseed.

The Third Rule of Project Appleseed is: If someone says "stop" or "cease fire", the shoot is over.

The Fourth Rule of Project Appleseed is: Only one guy to a lane.

The Fifth Rule of Project Appleseed is: Only one range at a time.

The Sixth Rule of Project Appleseed is: Wear all protective gear.

The Seventh Rule of Project Appleseed is: Shoots will go on as long as they have to.

The Eighth Rule of Project Appleseed is: If this is your first time at the event, you HAVE to shoot.



Sorry, I have too much time on my hands..
if you don't understand the "rules" go watch the movie Fight Club with Brad Pitt.

H2O MAN
April 6, 2009, 03:50 PM
The Appleseed project leads to warm apple pies...

http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/a/01293-3.jpg

PHenry
April 9, 2009, 03:50 PM
PHenry, thanks for the update, but that sounds a little political and soap box speaking.

Huh?

At the end of each event, I always council all in attendance to avail themselves of the system of government that was handed to us by our ancestors. I ask them to write their reps and suggest that post cards are best. I suggest that they "annoy" them with alarming regularity, as I do.

I do not presume to tell them what to say - only that the Founders advised us to remain "alert, active and informed". I even say that in defense of our elected employees - how can they know what we want unless we tell them.

This portion of the events that I run comprises less than 1% of the time spent. It is not part of the program - it is my own opinion and is always presented as such.

Is that being political? Maybe so, but it is not my idea - it is the wish of men like John Adams and George Washington who hoped aloud that we would maintain that which they had sacrificed so much to attain.

Soap box - I guess some might say so, but I have never heard any such comments from people who have attended any events - "mine" or others.

We owe the Founding generation a debt that we literally cannot repay. We can only hope to pay it forward by passing their traditions on to the next generation. That sir, is the mission of Appleseeds - nothing more and nothing less.

I would encourage you to attend an event and see for yourself. I know from experience that your marksmanship would improve - no matter what your current level and also that you would be surprised by the true story of April 19th, 1775. What most of us (99.9%) learnt in school is, well, silly really - a fantasy at best.

I can pretty well guarantee that you will never hear an instructor speak of a particular political candidate / issue while "on the clock", as that would be a breech of protocol and something that we refer to as "off point" - unacceptable by Appleseeds standards.

As to defensive responses - we are all required to "check our ego at the door", which should preclude any angry responses, but we are all most passionate about what we do and I suppose that might lead to such an outburst - especially after seeing some of the posts, a couple of which might be construed as "insulting".

It can be very frustrating when you work so hard to get the word out and then see folks making negative comments who have not attended an event. If fact, that is the common denominator of posts on any 2A related forum that have bad things to say about Appleseeds - they have not been to an event. It's enough to make a hard working volunteer cranky. :fire:

If you go to www.rwva.org and click on "Appleseeds" you can look up the schedule of events - we are nationwide for sure now and will be hosting 50 events on the weekend of April 18 / 19 alone. More than 1400 rifles will sound the Liberty bell at 1600 hours EST simultaneously - a national first as far as we know.

As to instructing - anything you do that promotes safe shooting is good by me and should be good by any RWVA instructor, so keep up the good work and again, try to join us for an event.

Thanks,
PH

Lovesbeer99
April 10, 2009, 12:00 AM
To make this simple, just go back and read my last post.

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