Polygonal rifling, pros, cons, and anything else...?


PDA






gvnwst
February 18, 2009, 06:02 PM
Basically as the title says, i just learned about polygonal type rifling, and it looks like good. But are there any cons, other than cost maybe, that make "regular" rifling better? Is it actually more accurate than standard rifling? Seems like with that, and the claimed extra veli=ocity, it would be a good choice for LR rifles...

For those of you who haven't seen what it is, here is a basic photo:
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo64/gvnwst/493px-Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling_s.png

If you enjoyed reading about "Polygonal rifling, pros, cons, and anything else...?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
chris in va
February 18, 2009, 06:15 PM
The only two things I can tell you is don't shoot 'bare' lead bullets through it, and it's easier to clean.

Carlos Cabeza
February 18, 2009, 06:51 PM
HAHA ! So that's what polygonal rifling looks like !:neener: I am suddenly glad I don't own an uberpistole...............

geronimo509
February 18, 2009, 07:09 PM
my kahr mk9 is very accurate and it has polygonal rifling.

Bobarino
February 18, 2009, 07:11 PM
polygonal is supposed to give a tiny increase in velocity due to a better seal between the barrel and bullet. it is easier to clean, that's for sure.

you'll be hard pressed to find a barrel maker that will do it. H&K used to do some of their rifles with polygonal rifling, but they haven't in quite a while. i don't know of any others that do it, but then again, i haven't looked either.

Bobby

Kurt_D
February 18, 2009, 07:27 PM
Pac-nor or Noveske if you have an AR and they ain't cheap. I have a Noveske on my AR10, it's a tack driver and easy to clean; there doesn't seem to be a lot of copper build up with this type of rifling.

Rembrandt
February 18, 2009, 07:35 PM
My Desert Eagle and HK rifle has polygonal rifling.....wish everyone offered it. Easy to clean and accurate.

taliv
February 18, 2009, 07:40 PM
where'd you get that pic, gvn? 8 lands?

Claude Clay
February 18, 2009, 07:59 PM
the pic on the left started life as a loc-washer

blkbrd666
February 18, 2009, 08:09 PM
The little CZ surplus has it...CZ82? I think Glocks have it don't they?

fecmech
February 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
The only two things I can tell you is don't shoot 'bare' lead bullets through it, and it's easier to clean.

I put a little over 3500 rds of cast lead through my K-9 Khar Polygonal barrel. Very accurate and no leading or pressure problems while duplicating jacketed ballistics.

Jorg Nysgerrig
February 18, 2009, 08:21 PM
Taliv, that picture is from the Wikipedia article on rifling. I don't where the original source.

Howard Roark
February 18, 2009, 09:15 PM
While not polygonal per say, Broughton (http://www.rifle-barrels.net/index.html) makes some of the finest rifle barrels one can get. They call it a "canted" land and their track record (http://www.rifle-barrels.net/pageoffame.html) cannot be disputed.

The above is cut and pasted from my reply in a thread on .us

Javelin
February 18, 2009, 09:23 PM
Noveske makes stainless polygonal rifled barrels that add 20-40fps to the bullet. And they are very accurate.

The only polygonal rifled barrel I personally own is in my Glock.

:)

gvnwst
February 18, 2009, 09:29 PM
So, other than cost, nobody knows any downsides of this type of rifling?

Howard--thanks for the link, is the 5c (5 canted? I have always understood it to be a special rifling shape, like a boxy C....) the stuff you were talking about? I really like the Broughton barrels i have seen, I would love to put one on a custom LR savage or remmy 700....
taliv--Jorg is correct, the pic is from wikipedia...:uhoh::D

Howard Roark
February 18, 2009, 09:43 PM
Yes, 5C is what I was refering to. I know several high power shooters that like the .243 but don't care for the short barrel life a .243 has. The Broughton barrels give higher velocities and when used with moly, barrel life is extended 1000 to 1200 more rounds than with naked bullets.

gvnwst
February 18, 2009, 09:48 PM
Cool, so for bolt guns, Broughton is the *best* (for now i guess) and for ARs, Noveske makes polygonal rifling......food for thought.:D

Does the 5c rifling have anything, or is it missing anything over "actual" polygonal rifling? Or are they so similar that it doesn't matter?

LoneCoon
February 18, 2009, 10:04 PM
I could be totally off base here, but when you have a hammer forged barrel, wouldn't it be easier to use polygonal rifling? Or is that what they do anyway?

Howard Roark
February 18, 2009, 10:17 PM
I don't know if I'd hang the *best* tag on any particular barrel, rifling method or profile. All the big boy tube carvers have plenty of accolades for their respective barrels. I guess its a good thing that there are so many good barrel makes out there because 2 or 3 couldn't keep up with demand.

I think what is refered to as polygonal rifling is more like the picture you posted. Very gradual transition from the lands to grooves. The rifling is more pronounced with 5C.

Jim K
February 18, 2009, 10:23 PM
It is easier to make by hammer forging; less pressure is needed since the barrel steel doesn't have to be forced into sharp corners.

In theory, it should be less effective as a bullet guide, but in practice there seems to be little difference in accuracy, both barrels being of equal quality.

Jim

Howard Roark
February 18, 2009, 10:51 PM
I find it very interesting and telling that the top European rifle barrel manufacturers don't use hammer forging. Grunig-Elmiger, Anschutz, Lothar Walther and Border all use or only make cut or button rifled barrels. American companies follow suit.

rbernie
February 18, 2009, 11:07 PM
I thought that the Sako/Tikka barrels were hammer forged, and highly thought of....

??

Howard Roark
February 18, 2009, 11:32 PM
I thought that the Sako/Tikka barrels were hammer forged, and highly thought of....

??

I guess that depends on the thinker and what they are doing with it. Has anything ever been won using a hammer forged barrel? Here are three of the top rifle builders for the F-Class shooters in the UK; RG Rifles (http://www.rgrifles.com/page13/page7/page7.html), HPS (http://www.hps-tr.com/services.asp), Osprey (http://www.ospreyrifles.com/custom_rifle_01.html). Not a single one of them uses hammer forged barrels. Not to mention Grunig-Elmiger, Anschutz, Lothar Walther, FWB.

I am not saying hammer forged barrels don't have their place but winning matches ain't it.

Blakenzy
February 19, 2009, 04:52 AM
Why can't you use bare lead bullets in polygonal rifled barrels?

Pulse
February 19, 2009, 07:31 AM
I am not saying hammer forged barrels don't have their place but winning matches ain't it.

i am absolutly sure that Tanner is useing cold hammer forged barrels made by SAN for his rifle and those are among the very very best you can get for ISSF or CISM competition.

the problem with cold hammer forging is that you need a machine that costs a couple millions, something most small gunsmiths will never be able to afford.

Howard Roark
February 19, 2009, 01:02 PM
Tanner makes good guns. Isn't SAN a government facility?

I'm not sure about how good overall the European rifles and their HF barrels are.

Here is what Bill Krilling said about Glen Dubis when he retired from the AMU.

"He so dominated the CISM matches that his scores would intimidate other shooters. When Dubis showed up to a match, his competitors figured the best they could do was take second place."

and,

"In Europe, Dubis is quite a celebrity," said Robert W. Aylward, USAMU deputy commander. "He's the Michael Jordan of the shooting world. People call the CISM rifle trophy the 'Dubis Trophy' because his name is engraved on it so many times; he's won the CISM Rifle Championship more times than everyone else in the world combined."

American shooters and their rifles dominate CISM.

Most of the European shooters pretty much have to shoot rifles from their country.

Pulse
February 19, 2009, 02:09 PM
Tanner makes good guns. Isn't SAN a government facility?

SAN, formaly known as SIG, is a privatly owned company that does do a lot of goverment contracts.
our big goverment arms company is RUAG with all the sub devisions like: RWS , Rottweil , Norma Precision and Geco.
they do built all sorts of stuff, but only a few small arms.

'm not sure about how good overall the European rifles and their HF barrels are.

Here is what Bill Krilling said about Glen Dubis when he retired from the AMU.

since Glen Dubis used a Bleiker Rifle, made in Switzerland, i would guess that they are preaty darn good..

American shooters and their rifles dominate CISM.

Most of the European shooters pretty much have to shoot rifles from their country.

here are the Results for the last CISM World Military Shooting Championship:

43rd World Military Shooting Championship
Boden, Sweden, 14-21 September 2008

Rifle
300m Standard Rifle, 3 positions
Team men

1. Austria 1750p CWR
2. Norway 1743p CWR
3. Switzerland 1738p

300m Standard Rifle, 3 positions
Individual men

1. BÜRGE Marcel (SUI) 589p
2. PARKER Jason (USA) 587p
3. MARKOJA Robert (SLO) 585p

300m Military Rapid Fire Rifle,
Team men

1. NORWAY 1724p CWR
2. SWITZERLAND 1698p CWR
3. AUSTRIA 1695p CWR

300m Military Rapid Fire Rifle,
Individual men

1. DEBEVEC Rajmond (SLO) 576p
2. BERG VebjØrn (NOR) 576p
3. UPTAGRAFFT Eric (USA) 568p

50m Rifle Prone,
Team women

1. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1775p
2. GERMANY 1773p
3. NORWAY 1768p

50m Rifle Prone,
Indiv. women

1. VORONOVA Anzela (EST) 595p
2. FRIEDEL Eva (GER) 593p
3. VESTVEIT Kristina (NOR) 591p

50m 3pos rifle,
Team women

1. NORWAY 1724p
2. SWEDEN 1722p
3. GERMANY 1721p
50m 3pos rifle,
Indiv. women

1. OLOFSSON Linda (SWE) 580p
2. OLSSEN Gyda E (NOR) 580p
3. BOGACKA Sylwia (POL) 579p

Howard Roark
February 19, 2009, 07:15 PM
The USAMU has went to the Bleiker rifles for CISM as of late. For many years they used Rem 700s with great success. Problems with feeding of the 6mm's out of a mag were a big broblem and is most likely why they went to the Bleiker. I have been out of that loop for a long time.

As for the Bleiker don't think that the barrels haven't been replaced. Doesn't the Bleiker have a pressed in barrel? Again I'm out of that loop. I'll find out this weekend what the deal is curently with the AMU CISM rifles. I'm teaching a high power clinic at Ft. Benning and will be there with the manager of their test facility.

If HF barrels were so good then why doesn't Anschutz use them? Or Lothar or Grunig.

I'll keep shooting drilled barrels.

I've never made it to Switzerland but have been to Germany. I like Germany much better than anything I saw in the UK.

Pulse
February 19, 2009, 08:23 PM
If HF barrels were so good then why doesn't Anschutz use them? Or Lothar or Grunig.

a machine that can hammer a barrel that can stand up to a button rifled barrel will cost you millions, if you can not contract out to others and sell barrel, you will never get the money back.
hammering barrel that can stand up to button rifled barrel is also preaty hard to do and you will have a high dropout rate.

SAN makes the barrels for Tanner with a tolerance of 0.05mm from throat to muzzle, that is plenty accurate and can easy compete with button rifled or cut rifled barrels.

and quite frankly, ask 10 diffrent people how to make the very best barrel possible and you will get 20 diffrent answares.

chris in va
February 19, 2009, 09:21 PM
Why can't you use bare lead bullets in polygonal rifled barrels?

Maybe this will help some. Scroll down about halfway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling

Howard Roark
February 19, 2009, 09:49 PM
a machine that can hammer a barrel that can stand up to a button rifled barrel will cost you millions

I would think that Jochen could afford one if he thought it would make his rifles better.

SAN makes the barrels for Tanner with a tolerance of 0.05mm from throat to muzzle, that is plenty accurate and can easy compete with button rifled or cut rifled barrels.

It's not the tolerances that concernes me. It's the stress imparted on a hammer forged barrel that worries me.

and quite frankly, ask 10 diffrent people how to make the very best barrel possible and you will get 20 diffrent answares.

And on that we most certainly do agree :)

Cheers

possum
February 19, 2009, 10:56 PM
they are supposedly more accurate than conventional rifling's. however i can take a glock pistol and a sa xd and shot 12 ga shells off the top of a post with either one of them.

the biggest issue for me is the fact that you are not supposed to shoot lead through them. i shoot alot of lead, as a matter of fact i just ordered 10,000rd of 155gr lead rn, and i am awaiting their arrival. i have a kahr and a glock , and for them i have approx 3000rds of factory ammo and since i don't shoot either one that much that will last me a while in those guns, and really that ammo will probably end up getting eaten by the xd anyway. especially considering that i have a pretty big training event coming up and there is no way that i am gonna be able to load up enough of the lead before they get here in preparation for the event.

Pulse
February 20, 2009, 12:34 AM
I would think that Jochen could afford one if he thought it would make his rifles better.

he believs in button or cut rifling then, nothing wrong with that.

It's not the tolerances that concernes me. It's the stress imparted on a hammer forged barrel that worries me.

match Barrels are stress relieved multiple times, HF, Cut or Button rifled does not matter, stress relieving is a must (cryo or heat? what do you prefer? an other point to disagree in the wonderfull world of Barrel. :))

LAK
February 20, 2009, 05:34 AM
Steyr still hammer their barrels.

----------------------

http://gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org

sourdough44
February 20, 2009, 06:23 AM
Many of us have read the 'lead warning' for the polygonal rifling. I have an H&K & a Glock with said barrels & shoot some reloaded plated lead bullets without any problems. My question is this. When comparing the 2 types of rifling in the picture it would seem lead would have a better chance of leaving deposits/dirtying a bore on the rougher conventional barrel? There are just about no sharp edges in the poly rifled bore to strip lead. Of course most manufacturers have at least a warning about any reloaded ammo.

Tommygunn
February 20, 2009, 11:36 AM
Slightly off topic perhaps but would anyone have concerns about FMJ Wolf steel cased ammo in a 9mm. Glock?

possum
February 20, 2009, 12:07 PM
Slightly off topic perhaps but would anyone have concerns about FMJ Wolf steel cased ammo in a 9mm. Glock?
no issues you will be good to go with wolf in the glock. people have their opinions of wolf, some like it some don't however you will be fine shooting in the glock.

If you enjoyed reading about "Polygonal rifling, pros, cons, and anything else...?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!